You're Dead to Me - Akhenaten and Nefertiti: religious revolution in ancient Egypt

Episode Date: August 21, 2026

Greg Jenner is joined in ancient Egypt by historian and curator Dr Campbell Price and comedian Sikisa to learn all about Tutankhamun’s parents, Nefertiti and Akhenaten. As well as their famous son, this ancient Egyptian power couple are best known in the modern age for two reasons. Firstly, Nefertiti’s legendary beauty – her portrait bust is instantly recognisable around the world. Secondly, Akhenaten’s religious radicalism, which saw him reorient Egyptian belief towards the sun god Aten and build an entirely new capital away from the traditional seat of power at Thebes. This episode traces their lives as members of the 18th dynasty, often regarded as the ‘Golden Age’ of pharaonic Egypt. We look at Akhenaten’s murky childhood and Nefertiti’s even murkier origins, exploring their family life and the children they had, the religious revolution that Akhenaten drove, the unique architecture and art styles developed during their reign, and the fate of Aten worship after Akhenaten’s death. Along the way, we dig into the archaeological evidence and the many uncertainties surrounding their lives, and ask whether they really were Tutankhamun’s parents after all. If you’re a fan of pharaohs and their follies, the history of religion, and unravelling the mysteries of ancient Egypt, you’ll love our episode on Nefertiti and Akhenaten. If you want more ancient Egyptian history with Dr Campbell Price, listen to our episodes on Hatshepsut or Ramesses the Great. And for more power-hungry monarchs, check out episodes on Emperor Nero or Frederick the Great. You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Siobhan-Michelle Smith Written by: Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Dr Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Gill Huggett Senior Producer: Dr Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

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We are the BBC Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history, Seriously, my name's Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today, well, we're bounding back to ancient Egypt and bowing down before the great sundisk in the sky, as we learn all about the Pharaoh, Arknartanatun, and his queen, Nefertiti. And to help us tell our Amun's from our Aten's, we have two very special guests. In History Corner, he's the curator of Egypt and Sudan at the Manchester Museum. He's a fellow of the University of Liverpool. Maybe you've read one of his excellent books, including Ancient Egypt in 50 discoveries, and the children's book we wrote together.

Totally chaotic history. Ancient Idrit gets unruly. But you will definitely remember him from our episodes about Hatshepsut, the Royal Pharaoh Queen, and Ramsey's the Great, the ego himself. It's Dr. Campbell Price. Welcome back, Campbell.

Well again, nice to be back. Lovely to have you back in. And in Comedy Corner, she's an award-winning comedian, actor and producer. Maybe you've seen one of her hilarious tour shows, stand-up shows, or maybe you've watched her on the telly, on Live at the Apollo, Comedy Central Live, Jonathan Ross's comedy club

and for wrestling fans out there maybe you've listened to her podcast Wrestle Club UK it's Sikisa, welcome to the show Sikisa Oh my god I'm so excited to be here Can't wait to learn You're going to learn so much stuff Yeah quite weird stuff

Yep even for ancient Egypt Even for ancient Egypt So Sakeasa we have to do sort of the basic chat First time on the pod Thank you so much for coming in I have to ask do you like history I do like history actually I always wanted to do it at GCSC

But I decided to pick geography instead Oh, come on. But yeah, like, Henry VIII was like my... Like, if we did an episode on that, I'd be like, you don't need, we don't need you. But I'll be the expert on that one. Oh, interesting, okay. So you quite like the kind of tutors, but what about ancient history? Do you know anything about ancient Egypt?

That the women were great. Yes. Nefertiti was amazing. I mean, yeah? I actually do love the symbols. Obviously, the symbols come up quite a lot in, like, tattoos and stuff. like that. I've always wanted to get one, but I decided not to. Okay. I feel like it's a bit like the Chinese symbols. You know, when people get

Chinese symbols and you're like, does that actually mean what it means? I don't know. Well, you've got an Egyptologist here who's been, oh, actually, you could draw me one. Yeah, maybe after the show. Yeah. I've seen people in swimming pools where I'm like, your name is Steve. It's written in hieroglyphs. All right, today we're talking about Arcanatan and Nefertiti. Do you, I think you know Nefertiti's name, right? Yes. What about Arcanartan, her husband? No, I don't care about that person. Maybe by the end you will

Maybe you won't I mean he's a controversial guy from history And his queen I think is Perhaps more famous than he is So what do you know Let's crack on with the first segment of the podcast This is called a So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you

Our lovely listener or viewer, hello Might know about today's subject And Ark Anartan, I think is a tricky one I think you've probably heard of Nefertiti though I think that's the sort of the baseline She's this famously beautiful queen whose one-eyed bust is, you know, one of the most incredible ancient sculptures, one of the most famous sculptures in ancient art.

And you may even know about their possible son, a certain chap by the name of Tutankarmoon. Oh, yes. So, you know, we'll get into that sort of, you know, basically, as we think, Nefertiti was the big mummy to Little King Tut, or was she? I mean, we'll ask, we'll find out. Arcanatan, I don't know, if you're an opera fan,

Philip Glass wrote an opera about him, but I don't know if that's well known. He's a baddie in Assassin's Creed origins, and Doctor Who fans will remember Nefertiti herself from hunting dinosaurs on a spaceship, as you do. So, were the real historical Arcanatan and Nefertiti hunting dinosaurs and spaceships? Probably not. But how did they profoundly change ancient Egypt?

And do we need to redraw Tutankarmoon's family tree? Let's find out. So, Sakisa, historians... I'm coming to you first. You want to talk to me, sir! Historians love dates, not romantic dates, mathematical dates, we like years in history. So we'll start with some basic ones.

How long ago do you think our story is? Oh, don't do this to me. Oh. Can I? I feel so stupid. It's not stupid. It's a long time ago, so I'm not expecting you to know this. No, people think I'm smart because I'm a lawyer, and I'm like, no.

You are smart, you are a lawyer. I'm actually quite dumb. But I'm going to say 1,300. BCE? This reaction is everything for me. Campbell, I mean, that is bang on, right? Cicissa is bang on. Yay!

BCE! Yes. So, Akna and Nefertiti are in the 14th century BCE, the 18th dynasty out of 30, so they're kind of midway in ancient Egypt. So we're talking about 3,340 years, I guess, like that.

Yeah, a long time ago. Yeah. But this is really the ancient Egyptian golden age. So you sometimes hear Egyptologists talk about the new kingdom So the pyramids are the old kingdom The new kingdom, Greg, as we've said before Isn't particularly new, it was 3,000 years ago But it's a time when Egypt has expanded

In a way and kind of taken a lot of stuff from its neighbors So the treasury is full Is this what Britain got it from? We'll come back to this But we've got letters from this time from the reign of Akanathan, which is basically him talking to foreign kings, and all the kings are writing to the Egyptian, Pharaoh, asking for gold. They're like, in my brother's kingdom, gold is as plentiful as dust.

So it's so common as an idea that ancient Egypt is rich, and we'll see evidence of that. We're talking here about almost the high point of a 3,000-year civilization, right? Yeah, it's up and down and up and down in histories. Never is that simple as a real high point without any question. But Akanatten's dad is a guy called Amin Hotep III. He rules for over 30 years. And he is not doing much in the way of battles because the Treasury is so full.

All he wants to do is build stuff. So this is really an international time. It's quite cosmopolitan. And Egypt has lots of gold. I've got a question. Yeah. So I will put up my hand because I feel like I feel like I feel like I am in school. I am taking notes.

How do you know that was his? actual name. Without going on a major tangent about the Rosetta Stone, we've got lots of texts that repeatedly give the king's name. So we have the basic components. So it may have sounded like iman hetep or Amon Hottep or something, but we know for sure that the dad is called Amun Hotep and in fact the son. It's also called Amun Hotab. This is a good name. And this is name checking the big god at the time, the kind of prime god, a guy called Amun Ra, who as we will see, goes out of fashion under our friend Akanaten. Let's talk about Akinaton's mum.

So we've met Akanathe's dad. Yes. Let's talk about his mummy. You will insist on doing that. I will. I will. You know, sorry. Who was the mother of Akanatin?

We know a lot about this lady. So Queen T is the daughter of people who seem like fairly normal folk. So she's not born in the royal family. In fact, we found the intact tomb. of her parents in the Valley of the Kings. So that's really where you get buried if you're a king or a queen. But Queen T's mom and dad are thought of so highly

by their son-in-law that they get buried in the Valley of the Kings. Queen Tee, and this is important for understanding Nefertiti, just is right front and center with her husband. She is doing things, she's depicted, commanding things. She's very present in the monumental art. And I think that sets the tone for the rain.

It's not just Amunho The third is a god, and he's telling people he's a god when he's alive. He's also saying my wife is a living goddess. They are worshipped full-on deities. So it's Kate and William. It's kind of like Kate and William on steroids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool.

I can see the vision. Yeah. I can see the vision. And they have a few children. How many? This is going to be a repeated thing. We don't know for sure because the record doesn't. always record.

Historians. Historians. Of course, we're talking about an archaeological subject where we have got loads of stuff surviving, but that stuff is a fraction of what must originally have been produced, right? So we know

Queen Tea and Aminhotep III have several children, one of whom is a guy called Tuttmose. What is it about Tuitmos that tickles you? Just tootmos! That sounds so funny.

Just tommos. What's your name? Topmose. See our episode on Hatschips out for a joke about two. So we know a bit about this guy. He is a big cat lover. He is one of the only ancient Egyptians who for sure has a pet cat. Now we think of the ancient Egyptians.

Oh, they loved cats. They buried their cats. They mummified cats. Actually, most cats were sacrificed. to the gods and we're not pets. But Prince Tutmose, he definitely has a pet cat because he makes a sarcophagus for it.

And he's also a bull fancier. He makes a massive tomb for some lucky bulls that can answer fortunes. What do you mean the cats were sacrificed to gods? Like, what they were just like a bunch of cats?

What about the dogs? What about... Dogs as well? Crocodiles. Crocodiles? Yeah. Anything you could kill, you could give us an offering to the gods.

Not spiders, though. No evidence of spiders, you're right. How about flies? Flies. Hard to mummify a fly. Hard to mummify a fly. Tiny bandages. They do, they do scarab beetles.

Obviously, as we've seen from the mummy. Yes, exactly. Yes. Renowned documentary. Yeah, yeah. That's how we got all that information. But yes, so this prince is he's a high priest.

So he's got a job. That's important to give him. a job to these young princes. Of course. Yes, as we know from history. Keep them occupied. But we know a little about him, but he does seem to be involved with animal cults. Because ancient Egyptian gods can usually take the form of animals.

So he's in charge of this sort of famous temple called Sakara, right? Where there's the fortune-telling, future-predicting sacred bull. The apis bull, correct. Which you ask it questions and it tells you what's going to happen in the future. Wait, wait. Wait, time up. So the bull is like telling the future. Yeah.

Wait, is the ball... The bill can't speak. Yeah, that's what I was supposed to say. To be clear. The ball's dead, right? No, no. When it's alive. So imagine you go into the sacred paddock and you've got a question.

Wait, wait. So I've got a bull who's like being praised by everyone. Got a harem of cows. Yeah. It's got special markings. So the sacred bull, when it is born, they know it's sacred because there's special markings, right? Yes. And then you ask it questions.

And it will eat food or it kick over a bucket. Or it sort of... If it just gallops in a certain direction, you say, okay, I've got a question, did the woman down the road steal my chisel? A bit to the left for yes, a bit to the right for no. So it's like interpreting movements of, you know,

statues of virgin... Mary, yeah. And the ball is obviously in the room and has got like several other cows around it, just like, just worshipping him. Just being like, moo. Pretty much. Mooh.

All hell, the bull. Mooh. Okay, interesting. Okay. Yeah. We see how the hip hop stars have got their allies from the ball. Exactly. So that's Tupmos' job.

Yes. So he's the main prince. He seems to be the heir apparent. So Arcanan, the guy we're talking about today, he's not the main prince. He's a backup prince. So what's his childhood like? We know next to nothing about royal children. Thanks for coming in, Campbell.

Bye. Especially boys, because I think there is a taboo about boys. being shown or given too much power or too much influence because they might try and bump off their dad, whereas princesses can feature in the art in the kind of public monumental discourse so we know next to nothing

about Prince Amin Hotep as he is the younger son of Amin Hotep the third. So he's not called Arcanatin yet he's Amin Hotep Junior. The fourth yeah, going to be Amin Hotep Jr. Okay but then Tupmooz dies He does. Perhaps run over by a

sacred cow, who knows? Who knows in the line of duty. Yeah, absolutely. So that means that we now get the succession established, right? Yes. Our little prince, I'm in Hotep, the fourth, is going to be Pharaoh one day. Second son, if he is indeed the second son,

takes the throne eventually, which is not uncommon in other parts of history. And his pharonic name, Sekees, do you want to guess his phoronic name? You won't guess this, and if you do, you are a witch, but like, do you want to guess his official pharonic title? Amma

Faro Pretty good one Good guys It's a bit more complex than that I mean Do you want me to I can't even I can't even read this

Nefer Heppru Reh Wainre Amenhotep That's his name They are definitely emphasising Not just that he's

connected to the god Amun Who as I said is the big main God of the time but they mentioned the god Ra or Ray and he's the sun god and so the power of the sun god is going to be very important in this story

this won't be his last rebrand Sakisa, spoiler alert he's going to change the name again Oh, he's Madonna a little bit but let's get onto Nefertiti because I think Sakis knew a bit about her so do you know what Nefertiti

translates to? Do you know what her name meant? The queen? The boss queen? It means literally the beautiful lady has arrived. Okay, I think I'm now going to be renamed as Nefertiti. Yeah, it's a great name. The word Nefer means beautiful or perfect.

She is unusually well known for an ancient Egyptian queen, as we all find out, because of the bust, this famous bust, Greg, mentioned that's now in Berlin. But she seems to not be royal. She's not married into the royal family. She's not born of royal stock. Some people think,

because of the meaning of the name, that she might be a foreign princess who comes into the Egyptian court. We know the ancient Egyptians do that. The Egyptian king takes foreign wives. So she's an import bride. She might be a male order bride from the tanny. She's Megan.

She's Megan. I can see how it's moving into Cottonwood Cross. You don't want to force too many historical comparisons. But like most ancient Egyptian brides, generally, certainly royal brides, she seems to get married to Amunhotep IV, as he is, quite young. So she's anywhere between the ages of eight and 16.

Oh, I'm going to have to honk my problematic marriage claxon. That's so, yeah. I mean, 16, by our standards on this show, is like, tolerable. Eight is horrific. Did she really get married at eight? Well, yeah. And that's not the worst thing, probably, because there's more to talk about.

Oh, dude. So she may have been eight. Some scholars say nine, some say 12, some say 16. It's impossible to say for sure. Right, but like she's extremely young. It's very, very upsetting. But also, she might have been, I mean, so Armandhotep may have been related to her.

We're not sure. We're not sure, but it wouldn't be uncommon for the king to marry a relative to keep the royal blood pure. So we've had in the past, brusbands, brother husbands. We've had brusbands. In ancient Egypt, we call them brusbands,

but she would now introduce a new term, husband, cousin husband. So, Amanatep, might be a husband or a brusband. It could be. We could hope not, but... Hey, again, if we're talking about modern rural family... It's not uncommon. Come on now. If you're historians, you should know.

Yes. No comment. But yes. Okay, but Sir Campbell, jumping forward in time, when do our marriage couple become parents themselves? When do they then have their own children? You know, Amanatep and Nefertiti, when do they have their own princes and princesses? They have at least for sure, because we've got lots of depictions, six daughters. So it's quite uncommon, actually, to show daughters in that way. They may have some sons, maybe Tutankhamun.

Yeah. But there is evidence that Akanaten may marry one of his own daughters and have more daughters. That's a whole other problematic marriage claxon. I don't even have that one. Yeah, it's a different realm. That sounds Austrian. We don't know for sure, and there can be symbolic ritual marriages that may not have involved children.

What else can we say about these children they have, the family dynamics? Well, I think the general context is high infant mortality, so children are dying a lot more in the pre-modern world, so you might want to have more children. Amongst those children, there is likely to have been a... boy. Now this is a big question. Is Nefertiti the mother of Tutankhamun? We don't know for sure. He maybe is the child of a lesser wife and Akinatin and he subsequently goes on to marry one of his half-sisters. It's complicated, but in all of this you're trying to, if you're the pharaoh, you're trying to secure

your right to the throne. And for a long time it was assumed the real right to the throne passed through the female line. So it was really the female blood that was securing the right to be the pharaoh. So Tudankar moon, historically, traditionally we'd say was Nefertiti's son and now we are putting a question mark on it. Yes.

Okay. Some people believe he was. Some people believe he wasn't. Interesting. Okay. Welcome to Egyptology. Sikisa. It's really hard.

Sorry. Is there no DNA test that we could do? We're not sure that the bodies we have are definitely the people involved. That makes it complicated. So we do have mummified. bodies, which is a historical resource. We've got Tutankhamun, right?

Yeah, for sure we've got Tutankhamun, but DNA and stuff degrades with time, so you can't just do a quick test and say, ah, I know who's son you are. All right, let's talk about the backstory that's going to get quite confusing, Sakis, because the reason we're here to talk about Akanaten and Nefertiti is that they did something radical in ancient Egyptian history. Oh, exactly. And the way we can sort of see some of that is in Tutankhamun's name.

Yes. So tell us about that. Give us the backstory on how his name is a sort of interesting indicator. So we've been talking about an Aminhotep the fourth. At some point he changes his name to Akin Aten, so a completely different name, mentioning the Aten. So the Aten is the Sun disk, is the disc in the sky, perceptible sunlight.

Tutankhamen, the child, is not called Tutankhamun originally. He's called Tuttank Atten. So that means literally living image of the Aten, of the sundisk. So he is very much a product of the belief, which becomes pretty serious at this period, in just the Aton, the sun disk in the sky. Traditionally, the ancient Egyptians you know

are worshipping lots of gods, magic bulls, cats, crocodiles, denial, et cetera. The idea of magic, really broad pantheon. But Achanaten comes along and says, nope, we're not doing that. We're going to switch things up. So the fact that Tutankhamun eventually changes his name to Tutank Amun tells you something, a bit of a spoiler, that things go back into reverse.

So we go back to worshipping Amun and all the other gods, and the Aten episode is fairly short. Yeah, and we've got to talk about that episode, because obviously that's the sort of extraordinary thing about them, this sort of tiny, pretty flurry of monotheism. Yeah, one god. Essentially. But we'll get into it. So Sikisa, Beneficent one of the Aten is the... the official name of Akanaten.

I mean, I know you're into your wrestling. It's not a great wrestling name. No, it's too long. Too long. It's so really have a nice ring to it. You kind of need... Say the name again? Beneficent one of the Aten.

How would you wrestle that up? How would you pop that into spandex? Welcome into the ring! The Aton! Okay. That could work. Yeah, yeah. That's about it.

Yeah, I mean... You don't need the beginning of it. Fair enough. All right, okay. But I'm, you know, I'm thinking, you know, the Undertaker, the Atten, these things, you've got to have the kind of branding. So, you know, it's an interesting problem, I suppose, of name changes and whatever. Akan Atenutton's already a brand new name for him.

Yes. And also, I mean, you said the pantheon of gods, they normally had animal heads. Yes, quite common, not always, but they often, you know, falconheaded and whatsoever. Sikisa, what do you think the Atten looked like? What do you think the official imagery was of this brand new god that Akanaten said, That's the one god, that's it. Can I get a clue? Is it an animal?

No. They're sexy. Cool. I think he is wearing like a sun ray kind of helmet and it looks like it's flared out with sun rays but it's actually feathers. That's quite nice.

That's a good image. Yeah. And some of the queens do actually wear that at the time. So how close is Sikisa with that really lovely guess? Not that close, because for ancient Egypt, the Aton is really weird. So et is shown, usually referred to with male pronouns, but kind of is a universal deity as just a circle as the sun disk. It's quite basic, okay.

But reaching out from the sun disk on the chalkboard behind Greg are lots of little hands reaching out not just to humanity, not just to everybody, but only to the royal family and at the end of the hand is a hieroglyphic symbol

you will know. It's the looked cross, the Anc symbol, the symbol of life. So it is in a way a totally an iconic, not human form of the god,

but it's also exclusive because it's saying the sun only shines for Akanaten, Nefertiti and their kids, other people can't get close to the god. This is the new only god, right? Akan Aten said, this is our new god, the only god, and he only likes me.

Yes, I am the only way you're going to get to talk to him. Right. I'm his gatekeeper. So Akanatin is a diehard Atten bro. He's all about the Atten. Sorry, can't help it. So does he think that the sun literally shines out of his ass? Like, you know, is he literally...

Not out of his arse, necessarily. saraly, but out of his hands. Out of his hands. Because there's one depiction, which may be the only ancient Egyptian scene showing a rainbow. Like you never... Think how universal symbolism of rainbows is.

Now, ancient Egyptians knew what rainbows were. There's one showing the Aton with a rainbow around it. Really? But yeah, it's a very weird experiment, and the experiment doesn't last because it lasts maybe 20 years. for this period and then the ancient Egyptians, forget about the Aten.

What I heard from that is, is that how Egypt invented pride. That's what? I would love that to be the case. That's what I got from that? It may not be. We'll just write that down in my notes. Alken Aden and the rainbow flag.

Yeah, absolutely. We'll come back to that idea, I think. I mean, we should say, I suppose, this is not a brand new god, right? It had initially been one of the gods in the pantheon. And then it's sort of, it's been elevated. It's been sort of pushed forward. So the iconography had started as a sort of,

of man with a falcon head? Yes, we've got early in Akanatans reign when he's not changed his name, he's still Aman Hoteb. There is a scene labeled the Aten and it's a regular guy or regular for the ancient Egyptians. God, man's body, falcon head. That's acceptable. But then things change.

And as Greg says, the Aten has existed in ancient Egyptian religious texts for hundreds of years. But then this is interesting. Akanatten's dad, Amman Hoteb III, says that he is the dazzling Atten. So all of this might be a bit of a daddy complex. And Akanaten might actually just be worshipping his fully divine dad.

Ammon Hotep the third. As I said, Amin Hotep and his wife, Queen T, are full on gods. Wait, how do you become a god? You just say you're one. Okay. So I'm a god. You could be a god as right now. Well, we all know.

I already have. Thank you. And sometimes if you were eaten by crocodiles, I think sometimes. was you could be made a god, right? You could pretty much overnight. Yes, that's right. The Nile was holy and crocodiles were holy. So if they ate you, that was actually like...

You get full mummification. Even though your family might not be able to afford it, you get mummified. And everyone says, yeah, you're totally ascended, become... So you can choose. You can decide to just be a god or you can feed yourself to a crocodile. I think I'll just be a god, thanks. Yeah, cheers. So Kisa, how do you think Akanaten went around publicly replacing these other gods,

these ancient, important gods? What do you think he did to sort of, you know, bring in his brand new religion? I think he basically said to everyone, if you don't do what I say, you are all dying. Okay, so you just think pure threat, right? Poor threat, threat, freet, pure threat. Pure threat, sounds like an Egyptian pharaoh. It could be actually. Just poor threat.

Or I think he even bribed them and was like, I was like, hey, I'm going to give you some gold. Akanat and says, right, we're going to move the capital city away from, the traditional area of what is now modern Cairo, the city of Memphis. And we're going to move it into the middle of nowhere in the barren desert. And I'm going to call my new city the horizon of the Aten, which is very on trend with the whole sun cult. So confusingly, the ancient Egyptian name of the city is Akhet Aten, meaning Horizon of the Aten, of the Sundisk.

And the king's name is Ackhen Aten. Beneficient one for the Aten, so it gets confusing. This is the principal royal residence, and Akan Aten says, multiple times in big inscriptions, I am never going to leave this place. And I'm going to be buried here, and the royal family are going to be buried here, and he just constructs this massive city

in the space of maybe 15 years. In the middle of the desert? Pretty inhospitable. Nothing there. Next to the Nile. Okay, all right. So when you say move, like he literally like dug up the town and moved,

or display like, oh, you lot, hey, we're going with. He moves the people. He moves the people, and I suspect, because his dad is sitting in his throne and he's not going out to war.

He's got so much time to build stuff. There are people who are ready to build. So he moves the builders. He doesn't move the actual stuff. He doesn't move the buildings. Later kings do that. But he starts fresh because he makes this thing of,

this is virgin land. It's not sacred to any god or any goddess. Let's just start. start from scratch because we're shaking it up. But he also trashes some of the existing temples, right? Oh, yeah. He doesn't just say new religion. He vandalises the existing temples, the existing gods,

who have been revered for 1,500 years by this point, 2,000 years by this point. There's an interesting theory that maybe this kind of reaction against the old gods happens later on in Akanathans reign where things start going wrong. So his big revolution seems to have cracks in it. and he thinks, this is the bad luck from the old gods. I've got to go and attack them. So especially the god Amun gets totally removed from every standing monument. Akanaten sends people with chisels out,

some of them who can't read the text properly and who are carving out the wrong thing. But he even attacks his dad's name. So if you remember, his dad is called Amin Hoteb. Yeah. He attacks the Amman part of his dad's own name. Wow. Okay, so he can't be worshipping his dad then if he's attacking his name.

his dad's name. Maybe he's worshipping the sun god form of his dad. Maybe not the Amun part of his dad. Wow. So he completely relocates a brand new city, trashes the old temples and says

this is the new capital city. You know, he's got the power. I would do the same thing. And everyone has to follow him because he's the Pharaoh. Exactly. If you're God, hey, you must do what I say. Yeah. We're not having a referendum on this.

Yes, exactly. Because that's how things mess up. If you have a referendum, if people get to speak. Yeah. No, no. They were in trouble. This is the problem we have in modern politics.

We did the referendum and now we're in... This is what happens. You gave the people the vote. Okay. So if you had limitless power, Sakisa, you'd be building a brand new city. Oh, you wouldn't... Oh, if I had power. Oh, if I had power, oh, the world would be crazy!

Yeah, I would do so much. He's obviously trying to bring people around to his brand new religion, his brand new revolution, his brand new city. Yes. He sees... I mean, to me, it sounds like a sort of, you know, a series of red flags, but I guess he's... He's the pharaoh. He's a god. He can do what he wants. I mean, Takeda, how do you think Nefertiti took to this? Her husband has got this big, bold new religion.

Do you think she's a supportive queen? No. I think she's an independent woman, and I don't think she was very much like, I don't want to move. You make us move? I don't want to move. And she'd be like, why are we moving? I think there was a lot of questions, and I don't think she was happy about it.

Right. And was like, we're happy how we are. Okay. Why do you, I think she was kind of like, you're being a typical man. You want to do this thing and you've not thought about it? So you think she's like Victoria Beckham having to move to Madrid and being like, I don't want to live in Madrid? I've got quite a lot of friends who've got husbands who complain at how they want to do something

and they've not thought about how it's going to like process and how you get to that end point. Yeah. And I think exactly this is what's happened. And you know, the kids have to start a new school. I mean, it's tough, right, you know, we've got to think about these things. How are we going to move? Have you thought about where we're going? Have you thought about the weather scheme?

Yeah, I mean, you know, exactly that. Dr. Surgery, dentists, you know, you've got to... All of those things. I think you're right, Sikisa, that there's a lot of eye rolling. Yeah, of course I am. It's a woman. He's doing this. I'm going to have to follow him.

So Nefertiti is very prominent in all the art, so she's with him. Yeah. Whether she's actively supportive, not sure. Some evidence against. She gets thrown palace. So she's at a distance from him. I'm getting my own house, yeah. She is mentioned in an inscription where the king says,

I'm going to make these decisions, and the great royal wife, Queen Nefertiti, is not going to argue with me. So the idea is there that they're having a bit of a to do. Right. And her mother-in-law is on the scene. So Akinattan's mom, Queen T, is still alive. And she probably lives at this site, the site of what we call a marna today.

And so if I was never a TT, I would want my own palace. Yeah, because if the mother-in-law is still there, that's the worst thing, isn't it? Yeah. Why are she here? Go away. It's like that J-Lo movie,

Monster-in-law. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so we have a brand new city. We have perhaps squabbling royals, or maybe not with, you know, but perhaps there's some tension there. Tell us about the city itself. Tell us about Akin-Harton.

Aket-Hatton. Arquette-Hatton. Okay. So we call it Amarna today. Yeah, I was going to say. So you'll hear people talk about the Amarna period. So this is this 20 years where the capital city moves to this area of Middle Egypt.

So it's about seven kilometers along the Nile. So it's big. It is mainly the king's palace or series of palaces, Nefertiti's got our own, and temples. Unlike traditional Egyptian temples, which have got roofs on the inner parts where you can worship God's statues, because the god is the sun,

nothing has a roof. So you go and the royal family, at least, worship in these temples. There is a major road connecting the palace and the temple. And because the ancient Egyptians were used to God statues being taken in procession

and everyone having a party, they're totally deprived of that. So Akanaten and Nefertiti to decide, do you know what? We're just going to be the gods and we're going to ride between the palace and the temple in a chariot and we're going to snog. And that is your religion.

So you can invite... So Kese, your face right now is a picture. I'm confused. How have we diverted to this? So Akanaten and Nefertiti bring the kind of the high officials along, and they have to publicly at least buy into this crazy new scheme. But it's interesting in the art depictions of what the city is like. There are soldiers shown flanking this royal child.

Never before seen soldiers, you do suspect there's a bit level of unpopularity about this. Some bodyguards to keep the king safe. To keep the kind of obstreperous masses at arm's length. I mean, yeah, and that's the interesting question, I suppose. How many people do we think maybe move to this city? Like, it's a big city geographically. Yeah, yes. But is it 10,000, 50,000 people?

How many people live here? It could be anywhere between 50,000 people. Amazing. So the elite people, they actually. Like the rich people who are making any of the decisions, the royal family and the elite are maybe, I don't know, 100 people in total. And then everyone else is building or servants.

So it sounds like it's a failure. It sounds like this move was kind of like not going very well. Doomed to failure. And actually you mentioned building there, that they do something radical here in ancient Egyptian history. They revolutionise the kind of construction process by making the block smaller. Yeah.

So the temples and the palaces and the houses are built of mud bricks mainly, but there's a lot of stone being used, local limestone. So unlike the pyramids, where if you've heard anything about pyramid building, you take a team of guys and they drag a big old stone on a sledge. They might have used ramps, they might use pulleys. They use big blocks and a whole team do the dragging. At a marna, Akhenaten says, okay, I want this done, double quick time. So I want the blocks to be smaller

so you can throw up the buildings quicker and I want each block just to be enough for one man to carry. Which sounds great, but actually one person holding one block is much worse for your back than a team of people dragging a bigger weight. Yeah. So it's not the health and safety. Not great.

Not great. Okay, so we've got thousands of workers to each carrying one block each. Yes. And building this sort of temporal. and city in 10, 15 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Incredibly busy.

But also, you know, we've got the artistic tradition changes too. Have you ever seen any Egyptian, ancient Egyptian art? Have you ever seen any of the kind of famous murals or, you know, inside the tomb of Tutankhamun? Yeah, it's only like the pictures and the hieroglyphics, of like the sticks, stuff like that.

But that's about it. Nothing like of like where they were, apart from like obviously the women. Yeah, the women pictures of them being in that. crones and being gorgeous and obviously. But they're often depicted side-on, right? I mean, gods are pictured side-on. People are, it's often a sort of two-dimensional.

Yeah, it's always like this. Yeah, it's like, it's the came of. Profile. Yeah, it's this profile. They're like, this is my good side. Yeah, my good side. But we get a brand new revolution in art in this period. And the Amana style of art is weird. Yes, even by ancient Egyptian standards,

which in some ways doesn't come up to what we might expect of Renaissance art. It is weird. It's totally strange. It's worth saying also that I'm, Marna, the city, now if you visit, is a desert. It's 50 shades of beige. But actually, in ancient times, you would have... One of my favourite erotic novels. Oh, indeed.

You would have, the insides of these palaces would be eye-poppingly colourful. There's lots of gold, there are inlays, we've got all the fragments of these. And the scenes on the temple walls show, for a start, the weirdness of the god. So the god is just the sun. there are only ever the royal family shown worshipping the sun any flunkies are way down the kind of pecking order

but actual people are shown very differently they have long elongated skulls they have long spindly legs big bums thighs long thin feet so even to an ancient quite a rotund bellies

that they kind of this quite a pronounced belly and quite androgynous so men and women which previously had been shown quite differently, are shown very similarly. So to an ancient Egyptian artist who was told, go away and help build this temple, they would have had to learn these new skills, these new techniques. They just look very weird even to an ancient Egyptian. But the artistic style is radical and it's weird, but it also shows Nefertiti doing manly things,

kingly things? Yes. So Nefertiti is a force to be reckoned with. She is present with her husband, as you'd expect the Queen of Egypt to be. But she's also shown on her own a lot, worshipping the Aton on her own. And in one scene, she's even shown beating up a foreign enemy. So that is usually just the Pharaoh is shown with a mace smashing in the skull

of a foreign captive. So she does a bit of that. So there's a different aspects. Independence. Yeah. Independent woman. Be a queen. Yeah.

She's often shown with her husband interacting with the children. This is super weird. also. Usually the king and queen in ancient Egypt are never shown with any level of affection or emotion.

You never get family scenes. You never get the king touching anybody. But at Amarna, as I said, there's this regular procession. Akanatin and Nefertiti are shown kissing each other and their own children. They're depicted in a way that invites us to

believe that it was a very kind of airy, fairy floaty existence where everyone loved each other, the reality is likely to have been quite different, I think. Living in separate palaces. Yeah. What I'm getting from that is that they're trying to make it a bit like real housewives to be like, this is a real relationship, but actually.

It is not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we're like, give me the gossip. That's what I'm. Because you've got Queen tea in the background and you've got Nephty tea.

Yeah. And then you've got the kind of the dad of the family who's like, I'm the God now. Yeah. It's all quite terrible. Yeah. I want to see that drama. Please want to make it. The real housework for mine will be amazing. And actually, Akhenartin, Asikisa, he doesn't live long. Do you know how old he is when he goes?

Oh, 26. Actually, he's older than that. I mean, okay. 32. That might be about right. Maybe. So the rain lasts, it seems, about 17 years. Oh, that's not bad, actually.

So if you imagine he came to the throne at 15. Yeah. He's still only in his 30s. He's so young by modern style. And when he dies, does everyone go, right? Or is there a kind of continuity thing? Does Nefertiti step in? Well, this is really interesting.

I think there are definitely size of relief in some quarters. Like, gosh, thank goodness that's over. Because, you know, while Akanatans doing all this and he's getting the elite people to worship the Aten, we know from archaeology from the city of Amarna, which was abandoned shortly after Akanatans' reign, tells you something. It's a gift for archaeology because no one built on top of it.

So it is like an ancient Egyptian Pompeii. You can literally go in, see what people were using in the houses. And so all the regular people were still using images and amulets of the old gods. So that rather implies his Atenism wasn't that popular with ordinary people. So yeah, when Akan Aten dies, there is a lot of, there are a lot of questions about what happens next. Maybe he has a son who comes along and rules beside him for a period, a guy called Smenich Kare. Then there's a mistake, the names get really, really weird now. There's another person called Nefer Neferu Aten who is meant to also be a king-like figure

who might share the throne with Akanaten and lives slightly after Akanaten. And for some Egyptologists, this is Nefertiti by a different name. So the husband dies and she says, right, I've waited long enough. I am the pharaoh now. So not just the queen of Egypt, I am the pharaoh. And she starts reversing the decisions of her husband. And she brings back Amunism. And then eventually King Tutankathan, or Tutankathen as he is,

he fully sees through the counter-revolution and he fully brings back the worship of Amun. So Nefertiti might be. be undoing her husband's work? We're not sure. To be fair. I could understand that. Let's just slowly, but surely.

Let's go back to the way things should be. That's went too far. It went too far. It was a joke. We'll go back. I'd just let my husband do his thing. I was just making sure he's happy. You know, happy wife, happy life,

sort of. But yeah. But it's, I mean, as you say, it's fascinating. The Armani Archaeological sites is an amazing window into ordinary lives too, isn't it? It's interesting that. People ditched it, right? They just went, we're going back home.

We're going back to Thebes. It is interesting the fact they didn't touch it. Yeah, almost like it was like scorched earth policy. You reused a lot of the stone, but latterly they tried to forget about that part of Egyptian history. And there is a dark side to this because although the palaces are very beautiful and they made a real focus on naturalism in art. So there's lots of plants, flowers. there are good bits of evidence that the people that did all the building lived very short, very hard lives.

So there are cemeteries of people who literally had their backs broken, young kids. Plagues seem to have swept through the city. It was not a particularly pleasant place to live unless you're Akhenaten and Nefertiti. So it's maybe no surprise that there was a counter-revolution, there was a reaction against this idealism, this utopianism of Akanatin.

Maybe it's like a tourist-like area for them. Maybe they were like, if you're feeling a little bit down, go to this place, it'll cheer you up. Because that's where you could be living. Yeah, exactly. That's what you could have won. I mean, I guess we've already introduced a couple of name changes because he was Aminhotep IV.

Then Arcanatan, then he died. Sikisa, he got a new name after death. New name after death. Yeah. Do you want to guess what it was? We rebranding. They did. This could be a good wrestling name.

Nookie. I'm trying to figure out, like, if it's a shorter version, just beginning with end, just nooky. No, I mean, that's cute. That's a cute, lovely name. It wasn't quite as good as that. It was closer to, like, you know, more like The Undertaker, more like a heel character, because he's the baddie, right? Yeah, he's the rebel or that criminal.

Wow. What was the Egyptian pronunciation? I can't think off the top of my head, Heffet might be the one. Yeah. Chiffet. Yeah, I mean, he's, they're not even calling him by his name, though. They're just like, that.

Yeah. That dude. That guy who did the bad stuff. Which in ancient Egypt, where there's such a focus on names and carving your name onto everything and everyone remembering the name, if you are not referred to by name, you're just that guy, that rebel. Yeah. I've got loads of people that.

That called that. Just that guy. And the temples. of Uten that had been built, they were smashed at the ground. You know, there's no like, it's not like this sort of just go, well, we'll just leave it behind and just get, go back home. They trash it. All that hard one. Yeah, no, yeah. All those broken backs. Oh my God. That's, that's, that's disrespectful. I would be annoyed.

But that's also anger, right? That's people who are angry. Like, they take it out on the religion. Yeah. The religion he forced upon them, they're like, no, no. So we get this sort of sense of vandalism of anger and of people returning to the old ways, the old gods? Yeah, so when later Egyptians are listing the Great Kings of Egypt, they leave a conspicuous gap. So, Akronaten, we're not going to talk about him. So it goes from his dad to one of Akanatans' successors.

They completely miss out. Nefertiti, T. If she was a king, Tutankhamun is also tarnished by association. Even though he changed his name back to Tudan, Amun. Even though Tudan actually did, counter-revolution and brought things back to the way they used to be, he gets... They just get written out of history. It does seem a bit like modern history.

Yeah. This is what people do. It's reflecting. It's reflecting. It's what people do. You know what? I don't appreciate them cutting out Nefertiti. No. What happened to her, actually? I mean, that's a good point. Does she get...

You know, if you say she gets written out of history, but like, does she die powerful and rich and glamorous? Or is there a kind of... We do not know whether she dies as the Queen of Egypt. during the reign of Akanatana, that's possible, or maybe she kind of transforms into being the pharaoh. There was a theory for a while that she was actually buried in secret rooms in the tomb of Tutankhamun that haven't been found yet,

but that radar results were kind of unsure, so that doesn't seem likely. She just disappears from the history books and only comes back as a kind of figure in history in the late 19th century, and with the discovery of that bust that brings her up to modern times and has a great impact on popular culture.

So there we go. What a story is the case, right? Yeah, it's actually very interesting. I did take some notes. And it was glad to hear about our husband. I will say that. Yeah, okay. Because he's like, men don't get talked about enough. In some parts of history, it's true.

And I feel like it's about time. Yeah, writing those wrongs. Yeah, it's about time. It's new area. Equality. We need the quality. I mean, I sort of feel bad for him because it's almost like people just hit undo.

They just like he spent 15 years building a brand new religion, a brand new city and then they just went, no. So yeah, so they just hit the Control Z, undo, and that's it. He's wiped from history, and now we sort of know about him as a sort of villain of ancient Egyptian history.

Yeah, like you said, it's so much work. So many people literally broke their backs building that place. All the statues, all the temples, all the palaces. Gone, all gone, overnight, used as Phil for other building. It happens to us all. Yeah.

Okay. The nuance window! It's time now for the nuance window. This is where Sekeesa and I sit silently for two minutes, drawing strangely proportioned portraits of each other, while Dr. Campbell takes centre stage to tell us something. We need to know about Akanathan and Nefertiti. I'm going to get my stopwatch up.

Okay. I've got close time this. Two minutes on the clock. Let's get that. There we go. Okay, two minutes on the clock. Take it away, Dr Price. So of anything we've been talking about today,

I think people will be most familiar with that picture of the Nefertiti painted plaster bust. Long neck, tall, blue crown. It was found in 1912 by a German team and is now in Berlin, although it's transport to Germany. It's a part of a division of archaeological finds

has been contested. The Nefertiti bust is, though, perhaps the most weird sculpture of any we have from ancient Egypt. Strangely truncated, it's not part of a larger statue, its function is unclear. But there was a matching Akinatin. He's very bashed up, so he's almost totally forgotten. Nefertiti survives in such perfection that she's been accused of being a fake, which

she's not. Nefertiti, because of that bust, is an icon. She's in every woman. She's both an African queen and, in the words of Adolf Hitler, an Aryan. She can be anything to anyone. But I want to emphasize, we'll never really know what the living woman looked like.

Because as we've been saying, a lot of this art is highly stylized. She did not look like this. The metrical proportions of the face are totally unnatural, totally unhuman. But what I think accounts for her timelessness is that we can't see her hair. She's wearing this tall blue crown,

which if her hair was showing that would make her more attributable to ancient Egypt. Without the hair, she can be the bride of Frankenstein. She can be an intergalactic space queen. She can be anything you want her to be. Like the most popular royals today, we can project any identity we want onto her. Amazing. One minute 54. Look at that. So punctual.

And I drew a picture of you. Oh! Thanks, Akisa. You know, the idea of her as a kind of African queen but also a beauty standard is interesting. Yeah. People get plastic surgery to look like a face that never existed. Yeah, because obviously people get tattoos

and stuff like that of her face. It's just her and Cleopatra. Her and Cleopatra, obviously, iconic in like women's, in like queen, independence and stuff like that. So I can see why people, people were so fascinated with her. And obviously the picture that you showed me, it shows like a proper beauty.

And obviously when people are like African queens. Great cheekbones. Yeah, people are like, Nefertiti, she's great. I mean, actually, she's not. Maybe she was great, but we're not really sure. I mean, as you said, they may find her bones one day. They've been looking, haven't they? They've been sort of hunting her down.

Yeah, there are candidates out there, but we'll never really be sure because, yeah, DNA is not a magic wand that just tells us exactly what people wear. But there we go. So that's the story of Arcanartan and Nefertiti. Maybe a power couple, maybe a kind of squabbling couple who didn't agree. And, you know, maybe she undid everything he achieved or didn't achieve. Your mother-in-law's here.

Yeah, I mean, who... Why is she here? She doesn't even cook. No, she didn't cook, but she ate. She's shown chowing down on a big steak. All she does is eat. Don't even look after the kids. What's our purpose here?

So what do you know now? It's time now for our quiz. This is this, so what do you know now? This is our quick-fire quiz for Sakisa to see how much you have learned. Now, Sykesia, you are both a comedian and also an immigration lawyer. You are extremely brainy and very accomplished. You must be good at learning things because, you know, the law degree is hard. So you've been taking notes.

Do you feel confident? No. I discovered I was just next six four years ago. So a lot of things may just go in and go out. And also, all these names have been spelled wrong. I mean, no one is spelling these names correctly, even with loads.

I mean, they are hard, hard names, right? Okay, but we'll give it our best shot. I have been listening, and I was very intrigued. Okay, 10 questions. Okay, question one. Akanathen ruled during the 18th dynasty, during this sort of very famous era, when Ferros were so rich,

gold was said to be as common as what? Dust. Very good, we're up and running. Question two, what did Nefertiti's name literally translate to? Do you remember? The really pretty lady. Who has?

Who has. Remember import bride? No. The really pretty lady. That's what I got. The beautiful lady who has come. I'm going to let you have that because I think it is a really pretty lady. I think it's pretty good.

Question three. How was Arcanathan's new favourite god, the Arton, portrayed in ancient Egyptian art? Oh, with that. Yeah. It's radio, so give us words. Oh, sorry, my man. With the sun and the hands out touching.

them because they were only worshipping the royalty. Very good, yes. And originally it's sort of falcon-headed god but yeah, later on a sun disk with weird little fingers. Question of four, how old was Nefertiti when she married Arcanarton? We've got four possibilities. Between the ages of 8 to 16. Very good, excellent. Brilliant.

There's a debate about that. Yes, 8, 9, 12, 16, very good. Question 5. Nefertiti and Arcanatan definitely had six daughters. But which of their possible sons has become very famous to history. Tutankhamen. Very good. King Little Tart.

Question six, name one strange aspect of how humans are depicted in the famous Amarna style of ancient Egyptian art produced during Arcanathan's reign. What is it about their kind of depiction that's weird? Oh, that they're not facing sideways. Yeah, and also in terms of their bodies, their sort of physiology. Fat. Yeah, fat, long necks, their long heads, skulls.

Yeah, I'll give you that. Question seven. Akhetartan, or Akhetarten, the city, was the brand new capital. What was different about the stone blocks used to construct? They were smaller. Yeah, so the individuals could carry them and then be hurt doing so. Question eight, what was unusual about what the royal couple were shown doing in their royal art? They were affectionate with each other.

They were. They were affectionate. They were snogging. They had their kids with them. Yeah, exactly. It's like Queen Victorian Prince Albert and that sort of famous Christmas card. Yeah, absolutely. This is question nine.

You're doing so well so far. Name one way in which Arkinartan's religious revolution was undone after his death. They took down the pyramids and buildings. Yeah, the temples. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. They also trashed his name and wrote him out of history. And this is for a perfect tense, Sikisa.

What is one possibility for what happened to Nefertiti after her husband died? That she became fairer and changed. I'll accept it. Yay! Yeah, good. Very well taught, Dr Price. Very impressive and very well learned, Kesa, well done. I did learn something today.

I mean, your notes obviously were effective. I didn't even look at them. Amazing. Thank you so much to Kesa. I hope you've enjoyed that. I mean, I enjoyed that. Yeah, it was fun. It was educational. It was. If you're not laughing, you are learning. Sometimes we did both.

Listener, if you want more ancient Egypt with Campbell, check out our episode on other impressive pharaohs. We had Shepset, the kind of Pharaoh queen. And of course, Ramesses the Great, the great ego has landed. For more radical rulers from history, We've got episodes on Emperor Nero. We did that with Patton Oswald. We did Frederick the Great with Stephen Fry.

We did Catherine the Great with David Mitchell. We've done some greats. We've done a lot of kings and queens through history. So check out the back catalogue. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our amazing guests in History Corner, in Ancient History Corner. We had the stellar Dr Campbell Price from Manchester Museum. Thank you, Campbell.

Thank you. And in Comedy Corner, we had sensational Sikisa. Thank you, Sykisa. Thank you for teaching me something new. Absolutely. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we find more forgotten figures to elevate or relegate, depending on what they did. But for now, I must have to go and build a new capital city dedicated to BBC broadcasting legend, Akit Attenborough. Bye!

This cultural life from BBC Radio 4. I will never go into anything so deep like that again. The world's leading artistic figures reveal their creative influences. Disobey, disagree, disavow. I'm John Wilson, and my recent guests have included the scope to Anish Kapoor, Photographer Annie Liebervitz, the actor, Kristen Scott Thomas. It has made me good at telling stories about people have a secret suffering. And former children's laureate Frank Cottrell-Boyce.

If art's got one function, it's to point to what's wonderful and say, look, this is your world, it's insane. Listen to This Cultural Life on BBC Sounds.