You're Dead to Me - Alexandria: city of knowledge and culture

Episode Date: September 19, 2025

Greg Jenner is joined in Egypt by historian Professor Islam Issa and comedian Athena Kugblenu to learn all about the history of science and philosophy in the city of Alexandria. Founded by ancient conqueror Alexander the Great, Alexandria from its earliest days was a city at the forefront of scientific discoveries, philosophical enquiry and religious debate. At its height, the city’s famous library housed nearly one million texts, and attracted thinkers like Hypatia of Alexandria, Euclid and Heron (who invented the steam engine). This episode tells the story of this incredible site of knowledge and culture, taking in its epic founding, the rise of Christianity and its impact on the city, its fate during the Crusades, the coming of Napoleon, and its role in the rise of the Arab nationalism movement. If you’re a fan of the history of science, brainy philosophers and incredible architectural achievements, you’ll love our episode on Alexandria. If you want more from Athena Kugblenu, check out our episodes on the Haitian Revolution and Njinga of Ndongo and Matamba. Or for another journey through a historical city, listen to our episode on Istanbul in the Ottoman Golden Age. You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Emma Bentley Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Gill Huggett Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

Hello Greg here. Just a reminder before we get going that episodes of Your Dead to Me are released on Fridays wherever you get your podcasts. But if you're in the UK, you can listen to the latest episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. First on BBC Sounds. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are packing our travel guides and venturing back over 2,000 years. as we trick all the way to Egypt to trace the cultural and intellectual history of the city of Alexandria. And to help me do that, I'm joined by two very special guests in History Corner. He's a multi-award-winning author, broadcaster, curator and academic. He's a professor of literature and history at Birmingham City University and an expert in the cultural history of the Middle East. He's also the author of the award-winning book, Alexandria, The City That Changed the World. It's a brilliant book. I highly recommend it.

It's Professor Islam Issa. Welcome, Islam. Thank you. I'm excited. I'm a little confused why we're not doing this recording in Alexandria. The budget didn't quite stretch. Sorry, Athena. All the money was spent on me. That's what the problem is. And in Comedy Corner, she's a comedian, writer and podcaster.

You may have heard her on numerous radio four shows or on her podcasts, bust or trust, a kid's mystery podcast and keeping Athena company. Perhaps you've seen her on Richard Osmond's House of Games and mock the week. She's even written a funny history book for kids. History's most epic fibs. But you'll know her best from past appearances on this very podcast. It's Athena Kiblernu. Welcome back, Athena. Thanks for having me back.

Delighted to have you back. We've had you on many times because you're very good at this. Plus, you also write history books for kids. I do, yes. Do you know much about the history of Alexandria? I know very much like Stevenage is named after Stephen. Alexandria might be named after someone called Alexander. Yeah?

That's a good start. Yeah. Is that right? Halfway there. Yeah. And I know it had a library that burnt downloads. It did. That's pretty good knowledge

But yeah Today we are trying something quite ambitious We're going to try and do a cultural history of a city Across two millennia So that's some good starting facts But we'll do a lot more So what do you know This is where I have it go

At guessing what you are lovely listener We'll know about today's subject And I think like Athena You will have heard of the city of Alexandria I think you will have heard of the library And the famous fire that burned it down Alexandria pops up quite a lot in pop culture. It is in the Liz Taylor iconic movie Cleopatra, of course.

More recently, he was in the movie Agarra with Rachel Weiss playing Hypatia, the mathematician. The famed Egyptian director Yusuf Shaheen set many of his films in the city, including Alexandria. Why? Clues in the name. And if gaming is more your thing, you may have roamed the streets of Ptolemaic Alexandria in Assassin's Creed origins. But how did a small fishing village become one of the greatest intellectual hubs of the world? How exactly do you smuggle a dead saint out of a city? Let's find out. Right, Professor Islam, let's start with the basics, please.

Where is Alexandria? I know it's in Egypt, but, like, you know, where? What time period are we starting on? I know we're doing like a big old history. Why is Alexandria important? Three big questions for you to start the show. Well, you know, initially it was called Alexandria by Egypt when it was founded because it was seen as something that connected Egypt with the Greek world.

So it's on the Mediterranean, on the Nile Delta, so that's where the Nile River spreads into the Mediterranean. So it's sort of south of Greece, but it's also in Africa, the north-east of Africa. In terms of time period, how long do we have? Radiocarbon dating of the seashells there tells us that there was a settlement as early as the 27th century BC. So we're talking like 2,600 BC. It's originally a series of small fishing villages, and to the south of them you had a lake, and it had marshlands around it,

and so it was great for fishing on the villages and agriculture around those lakes. And then Alexandria itself, the city, is founded in 331 BC. It's founded by Alexander the Great. King Stephen of Stephenage. Yeah. So what was it called before he got there?

Did he just say, this isn't your name anymore? This is my place now. Well, there was a series of these sort of, I think it was an underwhelming site when he arrived. I think it was just a few fishing villages. There was an island there called Ferros. And it's thought that the main village there was called Rakotis, which people have different theories about what it means. Rakotis the Great.

Was it founded by him? Well, one thought is that it means the city that's being built up, but that wouldn't make sense. because it wasn't built up. Another is that it's the sound that sea lions make. Oh, I love that. I don't know if I've heard a sea lion say Rakotis before myself. That's not a good way to name places

because in the UK we just have pigeons noises. So you know that pigeon like, coo, coo, ooh. Fourth century BC it's founded. And it quickly develops into the capital of Egypt, the capital of the Ptolemaic dynasty. Ptolemy the first is Alexander's friend in general. and the Ptolemy's go all the way to the famous Cleopatra, Cleopatra the 7th.

It becomes a global knowledge capital and the trade capital. And it lives on today. You know, by 1950, it's still got a million people in it. And today it has about 6 million people in it. So it's... Wow. I'm actually amazed at the site. That's like London's like 8 million, right?

But I want to get back to the origins, actually. You know, the fishing village into the city is an interesting story and we'll sort of explore that. But actually, the first sort of mentions in Greek literature involve a very glamorous couple from legend. Athena, which gorgeous power couple supposedly stopped off on Feros, this island that Islam mentioned.

Oh, gosh, I don't know. Did Odysse just have a girlfriend? Oh, it's not far off. Right war. Right war. It's Trojan War. So it will be a human, not a god. The most beautiful woman in the world, apparently.

Well, stop it, Islam. You know what I mean? We just met. Aphrodite. Oh, well, I mean, she's a god Yeah, she's a god But who's the most beautiful woman in the world? Her face launched... Rihanna.

Her face launched a thousand ships. I know, because now I feel really stupid because I know who it is, but I can't remember her name. Her name was Helen of Troy. Helen of Troy. And her new boyfriend, Paris of Troy. Now... Paris was also known as Alexander.

Oh, hang on. That's very confusing. Yeah, or Alexandros. The defender of the people. So that's the earlier mention of that name. So why are they associated with Ferros Island, which later becomes Alexandria? How does that story appear? Well, Paris and Helen elope. Either they agree to elope or he kidnaps her.

We're not quite sure. So she's already married, right? She's already got a hubby. Yes, exactly. So, I mean, if we watch the movie with Brad Pitt in it, the Troy movie, Helen's behind the walls, Paris is behind the walls. But in the actual Greek legends, she's in. In Ferros? They arrive at Ferros when they run away. In Ferros is this little island that's

just north of where those fishing villages were. It's the place at which Alexander were found the city. And in one version of the story, they're very bored there. They just wait out the war. In another version, the sort of protector king of the island evicts Paris because he's not happy that Paris has taken Helen. He spares him down. because he's a guest, and then he exiles him, and then he allows her to stay for the rest of the Trojan War on Ferris Island. So already that region has good family values and hospitality. You know how they said they was bored?

I don't think there was bored like two young lovers on the island. What are you doing, nothing? He was really boring, right? He was just holding hands the whole time. So Homer, of course, mentioned Ferros Island in his famous poem, The Odyssey, although Homer may not have existed. The Odyssey, of course, soon to be a movie. And most important of all,

the Odyssey inspired Alexander the great to go to Ferros. Athena, I was going to ask you if you'd like to have a city named after you because obviously Alexander gives his name. And then I realised Athens. I've got one. Thanks for the offer. But I've really got one. I'm all full up of city.

Yes, I do. I mean, people like to say to me, actually Athens predates you, Athena. And I think, thank God. Because even though I look younger than I am, I am not that old. But I do have that, I really thank you. All right, so I'll do a different question then.

Let's talk construction. Did you ever play SimCity? I did. Of course I did. Yeah. It's one of my favourite ever games. If you were playing SimCity Alexandria, how would you turn a fishing village into a city?

How are you laying out your city? Oh, okay. So I was going to say airport because I used to like to watch the plane fly over the city. So planning, you probably want homes, I guess. And because it's like a fishing place, you want a fish and chip shop. Great. to sell the fish that you've caught. They haven't got potatoes yet, but sure.

No, right, so it would just be to a fish shop. Okay, fish and bread. Yeah, very much the Atkins diet in my city, just protein, no carbs. How would I start build a city? How would you plan the city? How would I plan it? So from the coast. So from the coast towards the interior, it would probably, like, you'd want to trade the fish, right?

So you'd get like a fish market so you could sell your fish to people who wants to buy it. and that's how you make you money. This is a good idea. There's a really good fish market in modern day, Alexandria. There you go. There you go. You've got a city planning future ahead of you. Yeah, the only thing is now I'm vegan.

So it'd probably be like, I'd probably have a little sign saying, please don't buy the fish. You may not be in business that long. Ethical, yes, but profitable, no. Islam, Alexander supposedly sees Veros and immediately he just visualises the city in front of him, right? And he plans it out with seeds? Yeah, so he's already read about it in Homer. And, you know, it's inspired him to go, and he arrives.

And he realizes that the location is great because it's at the intersection of three continents, Africa, Asia and Europe. And obviously his main goal is world domination. So he thinks this will be a great place to build and carry on with his ventures. It's like a place in the sun, but for like megalomania. Isn't that a great view of places you can invade? It's like, yeah, great, I'll take it. So he gets down on his knees, according to legend,

and he puts with grain on the sand a map of the city as he imagines it. Yeah. And it has everything in it. It has, you know, the markets and the temples and the shrine to the muses, which will become the library. It's probably also worth mentioning, though, that when he arrives there, he's halfway between us, and the pyramids.

That's how long Egypt has already existed. Sure, of course. And so there's already a canal system, for example, that the ancient Egyptians had built that will make transporting the grain easier. There's access to the Nile that will make him have irrigation systems, sewage systems, and so on. And then he leaves it to the most famous architect at the time,

Dernocrates, to build the city. And there's a lovely story about Dernocrates getting the job, Athena. Do you want to guess how he... You know the phrase, dress for the job you want? How does he dress in order to get the job he wants? I don't know.

Does he dress as a pyramid? Some kind of sphinx. You can have this all over your city. He's like cosplaying as his own plans. This is the city I'll build. I'm wearing it. Not quite. Islam, he goes...

He oils himself up, right? I beg you pardon. You heard me. It's literally a slick plan. He decides to dress as Hercules in order to get Alexander's attention because he goes to Alexander with all these references, you know, letters of recommendation from Rhodes, but he can't get through to Alexander.

So he strips and oils his body, puts a wreath on his head, lion's skin on his shoulder, holds a wooden club. And Alexander is very curious and asks who this point. person is and the slippery architect announces himself. It's quite a bold move to show up dressed as Hercules because, of course, Alexander claims descent from Zeus. So Hercules would be a relative, right? Exactly. That's exactly why he did it. Okay, I see. Different times.

After he designs the city, he leaves straight away to Siwa further south in Egypt because there's an oracle there where he wants to find out if he's divine. And true enough, he finds out that he is divine. What are the chances? Yeah, you're divine Alex, yeah. Now please let me live. And actually, for that reason, he never sees a building go up in Alexandria. He never returns.

So he planned it, but he left before it was even, before a brick was laid. Exactly. And the interesting story, actually, is, you know, you mentioned the Ptolemaic dynasty, Islam, which obviously gives us Cleopatra much, much later on. But it's the first Ptolemy, a man called Ptolemy, who found the dynasty, who kind of puts Alexandria on the map in terms of its power and status. He then uses Alexander's death to put himself on the monies. map too do you want to know how oh does he oh i'm going to say write a book he

he's a single he sings a song like like candle in the wind and then people would is that not it great i mean that's a lovely idea you lift your life like a candle in the wind never failing to conquer egypt in india um no he literally stole alexander's body oh okay and and just stuck on his wall like a big antelope A lion. Not quite. It's a heist, right? He takes an army, he intercepts the funeral cortege, which is moving from Syria to...

It's around Babylon. Right, okay. And it's heading towards sort of Macedon, you know, where Alexander is originally from. Alexander's request, apparently, was to be buried in Siwa, which is the oracle where he found out he was divine. So he claims, Ptolemy, that he's taking him, you know, to Egypt, because that's where... Alexander would want to go. Sure. But he realizes, actually, if I go to Alexandria,

then I can really legitimize it as a capital. Yeah. And as Alexander's city. And so he takes the corpse to Alexandria and builds an amazing mausoleum there that actually became like a site of pilgrimage for Roman emperors, but is now lost. Ptolemy puts Alexander on the map. He's taken the corpse of Alexander to legitimate himself. And what does he do for the city of Alexandria?

What is the city become under Ptolemy the first? He tries to develop like a very unique identity for the city. That's Greek-o-Egyptian. So he, for example, champions Serapis, who's an emalgamation of Greek and Egyptian gods, so that Alexandria's God can be good for both the Greeks who are there and the Egyptians. He also continues to invite people from all around the region. So we have people coming from like the Holy Land.

And there's a lot of Jews who come to Alexandria and have freedom of worship in the Jewish quarter. There's people from the Levant. There's even evidence of people from as far as India in the Ptolemaic days coming to Alexandria. So there's jobs and there's freedom of worship, the idea is that they can live in relative tolerance. He also commissions important monuments. We've mentioned Alexander's tomb. There's big temples, public gardens. You know, one of those, which is the Advent garden in the center of Alexandria is the

oldest garden in the world at the moment and it becomes a very popular city it's thought by some to be the first city that reaches a million people but that sounds incredible right isn't that the model of the kind of cities you'd like to live in now yeah it's a 15 minute city

what's the name of the garden again because is it elusis it is yeah which means advent and today in Alexandria we call it Nuzha Park it's still there yeah you'll find couples there some of us have got pot pot plants that last for like two weeks And there's a 2,000-year-old garden in Egypt.

You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Get some nice mango ice cream and go and sit there. Amazing. Alexandria is now in its sort of Ptolemaic era. We get these new building projects. As well as the garden of Elusis, we also get the Ferros Lighthouse, which is one of the seven wonders of the world.

Yes, and I know this, because as well as SimCity, I used to play Similization. Yeah, there we go. Another classic game for our elder millennial listeners. And that was a big landmark when you built. the lighthouse. I used to get a little graphic come up with the lighthouse.

Exactly, a little fanfare. Yeah. I mean, the Ferros Lighthouse is one of the seven wonders of the world. So it's an incredibly important in the ancient world and it's still, I mean, archaeologists were digging and diving down there like last month, I think,

when it's, I mean, it's amazing, isn't it? It is. The remains are still there. And that was on the Ferros Island. So when Alexander arrived, he connected the fishing villages with Ferros Island, with a causeway,

called the Heptus Stadion, in the unit, 7th stadia. And that's where the lighthouse was built. And the lighthouse's remains are there, and now there's a citadel there in modern Alexander. That's very handy. And, of course, also at the same time, they build the famous library,

the one you mentioned on the way in Athena. How many texts do you think were held in that library? Oh, goodness. Okay, it's going to be silly. 10,000. I mean, that's a lot of books, right? Well, they had, wouldn't they be like scrolls? They would be scrolls?

I think 20,000. Oh, you've gone bigger. I've gone bigger. Yeah, go on. Hit me. Some. We don't really know, for sure. All right.

Ruin the tension. Well, let me say this. When Ptolemy hired Demetrius to found the library, he said to him to find every book in the world. I'm quoting from a letter that's been found. The job description was every book in the world. So the estimate to sort of from 500,000 to a million. So basically the internet.

Yeah, over a million. there are like letters from Ptolemy to the librarian saying have you got all the books yet he's checking he's checking in okay and we get incredible scholars coming to the city don't we I mean maths fans will know Euclid of geometry fame who else is showing up and applying their intellectual trade eratosthenes said that the world's not flat aristarchus said that the earth goes around the sun which was a very odd thing to say at the time They developed fields like alchemy. Someone called Maria the Jewess was somebody who developed alchemy

and her main aim was basically turning anything into gold and living forever. Two good aims. There was Heron or hero of Alexandria who invented all sorts of things like the first steam engine, also the first vending machine. Oh, what a king. Usually for holy water. And there was a school of medicine, which allows. women in, which wasn't the case in Athens, where it was only men.

Different types of poetry were invented. And we also get, you know, Ptolemy the 4th, so, you know, once you've got, Tommy 1, you get 2, 3 and 4. He built a shrine to Homer, the great poet who gave us the Odyssey. Well, he may not have existed, but, you know, the idea of him. What? I think you're part of it. He may not be a real guy, but that's a different episode, Athena.

But there are also scammers, right? There were people showing up pretending to be great intellectuals, or pretending to be have been taught by great intellectuals. That's right. But certainly, yeah, the library, all sorts of issues arose because, you know, getting every book in the world is not very selective. And it's borderline obsessive.

Yeah. Anyone who could write would write anything because they were guaranteed to sell it. And then even better if you could scam the librarians. Was there no policy control? No. Is this what you're saying? Eventually there was.

Okay. You could then scam the librarians by pretending you heard someone famous speak and that you're writing their speeches, for example. So it's like the kind of AI slop on Amazon where it's just like sort of dodgy knockoffs of famous books. Exactly. Okay, so let's talk about fines.

Let's say you take something out of the library don't bring it back. What do they do? Because this feels like a pretty... That is a great question, Athena, because actually it's not the people borrowing the books who are doing the crimes, Islam, actually, because it's the librarians who are doing the borrowing crimes, right?

Tell us about that. Well, I mean, first of all, you weren't allowed to take a book out of the city. let alone out of the library. If a ship docked into the city, it would be searched, not for contraband, but for books.

And if there was a book, it would be taken to the library, copied, and the copy would probably be returned to the owner. No way. So the original goes into the library and the copy goes home? Well, they'll assess the situation

and see whether the original is worth keeping. If I do that with a Rembrandt, I'm a criminal, but apparently it's fine for librarians. And they borrowed from other governments, So, for example, they borrowed from the Greeks, you know, the works of the tragedians, which were, you know, something that the Greeks absolutely treasured. They paid 15 talents, which is like more than £300,000 today.

Wow. And they kept the books because they thought the deposit doesn't matter. So they would actually weigh up whether keeping a book was worth ruining a diplomatic relationship. Do you know something? I've got so many books at home. I've never felt so rich. Like, literally, they're not so rich. Yeah.

I feel like, I feel like Liz Taylor. So the original papyrus scrolls of the works by Eskila, Sophocles, Euripides, these great Athenian tragedians, these amazing playwrights. The original text are stolen and put into the library, right? Absolutely, yeah. So the city was flourishing intellectually, apart from the shocking library etiquette of stealing other people's books. We get a booming poetry.

And then obviously, as is the case with all libraries, was it sort devastated by budget cuts? because that's what seems to be happening to modern libraries. It's not far off. Oh, okay. I mean, a library is a good way of understanding the priorities of government. And under later Ptolemy, so basically the Ptolemy's were all called Ptolemy or Cleopatra, pretty much. So by the time you get to Ptolemy the 8th, Ptolemy the 9th, they'd evicted some scholars.

They'd given the job of librarian to their allies, for example, to an army general rather than a scholar. Oh, no. And then, of course, you have the fire in the first century BC when Julius Caesar was at war with Cleopatra's brother. And actually, he writes about the fire. Yeah. His autobiographies in like the third person, Caesar did this and Caesar did that. Caesar set a fire in Alexandria. So he confessed to it?

Yeah. He thinks it was a great idea. But he set some ships on fire and it kind of spread into the city. It didn't completely destroy the library, actually. Yeah, one of the wings goes, I says. It's kind of a partial, but there is also a book burning by the first Roman Empire, Octavian, who becomes Augustus, and he orders the burning of books. That's right. And more of those occasions, actually, Caracula, in the third century, he thinks that Alexander was assassinated by Aristotle, who is his teacher.

So he burns all the Aristotlian books. So this is something that would have happened hundreds of years ago, but he's like, time to get my vengeance. Yeah. Right. Yeah, I mean, Caracalla's in the third century, so he's, what, 500 years? Yeah, he thinks he's the new Alexander. Oh, okay. And then, you know, Aurelian burns the royal quarter, which has the library in it.

You know, we've got the rise of Christianity that had some book burning. In the fifth century, we have a Roman historian called Orozius who talks about empty shelves. So we know it's still there in the fifth century, but there's a slow decline. That's a shame. I mean, you mentioned the rise of Christianity. So the city had already been multi-ethnic, multicultural. You talked about Jews coming and living there beforehand. But the rise of Christianity is a really interesting and important story in the city's history.

Can you tell us more? Yes, it's largely based on the fact that St. Mark, the evangelist, brought Christianity to Africa through Alexandria. He arrived in Alexandria and founded the church there and would end up being murdered there as well. Alexandria was a kind of open-minded place traditionally The Greeks of Alexandria were seen as very liberal compared to the Greeks of Athens The Jews of Alexandria, there's a quote about them

That they're more interested in the theatre than the synagogue They were different to the Jews of Jerusalem So it made sense for this new faith To gravitate towards Alexandria And be influenced by all these other faiths as well That were already there So what was they into them? Because if you've got like Jewish people

into the theatre. What was their thing? Debate, I think. Yeah. Sorry, Athena. Bring back to theatre, guys. I mean, that's interesting. Actually, the funny thing, actually, we get quite a lot of saints from Alexandria, Christian saints, who were, you know, martyred or whatever were there, who are associated with the city. Why do you think Alexandria was a particularly good place for Christian saints?

Oh, good, the weather, the climate. Was it a cool, temperate climate? but sunny why was it a good place were there lots of people to save were there lots of people were they're heathens they need to save in I mean actually that's a good guess

but it's kind of more fun than that it's kind of a place of temptation right it's like the Las Vegas of North Africa it was it was because you see you have to be tempted and to sin in order to be redeemed

don't I know it yeah I'm still in the first phase of that process But Were there any sort of famous saints who lived it large? Yeah, and why is because there were things like Aphrodisiacs So oysters were used to Aphrodisiacs They also had birth control, I don't know if that worked But, you know, Egyptian women would put

Honey into their vagina to block the semen There was actually a... That's what they're saying. There was actually a... There was a pill as well. It was apparently worth its weight in silver. And it was a plant called sylphium. Can I just say it's still worth its weight in silver?

The problem with sylphium is we don't actually know what it is. Okay. Because it was so popular, the plant became extinct. Because of all those Christian saints having an absolutely great time. I can only imagine, yeah, so which answers the questions, why were there so many saints? The birth control ran out. So, yeah. So you have, for example, St. Tai.

was a prostitute in Alexandria who found Christianity. St. Mary of Egypt traveled to Alexandria admittedly to enjoy casual sex and she did so for 17 years and then she decided... When are you going to get a job?

She decided to go on a pilgrimage. Can I just write down enjoyed casual sex? 17 years. 17 years. St Mary, yeah. Yeah. So it was like an important fact. And then there's the pilgrimage but her pilgrimage was basically how many people can I seduce on my way to Jerusalem.

She sees an invisible force. I don't know how you see an invisible force. No, I don't know. She feels an invisible force in Jerusalem and repents and becomes a hermit. Okay. Even monks, there were monks in the nearby desert who would travel to the city especially for the services. So there's a fifth century text where it's recorded that a monk whose urges were on fire, returned from Alexandria.

It's a cream for that, I think. Returned from Alexandria, suffering from syphilis. And it was a way of telling the other monks not to do what he did. But of course, Christians were also persecuted by the Roman authorities and later on. Can you tell us about that? There is a lot of Christian activity. You know, they translate key texts. They combine the Old and the New Testament there.

They're also persecuted, especially in the third century. For example, there's a big panacea. pandemic. Pandemics really hurt Alexandria because it's at the crossroads at the continent and loads of people arrived from different parts of the world. So it arrives in Alexandria before Europe. And they blamed the Christians. You know what it was? Well, they say that you don't even have to touch the other person and you get it. That's what they used to say. Oh, okay. So it was airborne. Yeah, okay. That's very relatable. They blame the Christians for that, you know, and that was one time where they were persecuted. The persecution does calm a little when Constantine transatlantician. transitions the Roman Empire to Christianity in the 300s. We get a pagan worship being banned in 392, and we get the expulsion of the Jews in the 400s, which, I mean, that's interesting.

The multicultural, multi-ethnic tradition of the city is being purged a little bit. It does take a long time for Alexandria to have any ghettoization, and then it does take a long time for these kinds of things to happen as well. But, yeah, the Christians are persecuted by the Romans, and then the Christians begin to persecute those whom they termed as pagans, you know, the polytheistic Egyptians and Greeks. As you say in the 400s, there's big problems between the Jews and the Christians

and the Pope at the time expels the Jews. He has huge tensions with Egypt's governor as a result because they were still a very important part of the Egyptian culture and economy. And we've mentioned Euclid and some of the sort of great thinkers of the ancient world, but there's also Hypatia. Do you ever heard of Hypatia? No. Can you talk us through her contributions to learn, I mean, she's a mathematician, philosopher? She's probably the most famous pagan philosopher and mathematician.

She was a neoplatonist, so she renewed the ideas of Plato, and she was very popular in Alexandria, so she was kind of like a public figure. Like Cowell-Waldeman. What's different to Carol Vordeman is that she, you know, she, she, she, was brutally murdered by a Christian mob. Yes. And, you know, she's often considered as a result, a kind of martyr to philosophy. So were the Christians and intellectual? Is that why they did it? Or because she was a pagan?

No, I think it's more that she was having a lot of influence on the people of the city and on the governor of Egypt. And the church wanted to be in a sort of more powerful position. but it does mark the, you know, the climax of the conflict between Christian and pagan cultures in Alexandria. So obviously we've talked about pagans, we've talked about polytheistic people, we've talked about Jews and Christians, and now we need to talk about the arrival of the Arab caliphate. That's in the 7th century, is it? Yeah, so that ends seven centuries of Roman rule. The Arabs are led by somebody called Ahmed al-Nalas, who is a commander who knew the Prophet Muhammad.

and, you know, he turns Egypt into part of the caliphate. What that does for Alexandria is that about a millennium after it's founded, it's no longer the capital of Egypt. So they move the capital because Alexandria for the Arabs is too diverse. They don't know how to deal with all these different groups. And also they don't have a navy. They're deserts people. So it's a hard place to defend.

And so they move the capital. To Cairo? To what is now Old Cairo. Oh, Cairo. Okay, thank you, yeah. So what happens to the churches and in terms of the freedom of expression? This has been a kind of quite a melting pot city. Does we get freedom of expression still?

The initial idea is, yes, there's still freedom of worship. There's still freedom of expression. But as far as buildings are concerned, you know, we do see temples become churches and churches become mosques. And even today, there are mosques that have gone through that journey. Okay. We start to get what's called the Islamic Golden Age. We've mentioned before in a previous episode about medieval science. We talked about the Islamic golden age of science.

The Abbasid dynasty bring that about in Baghdad. Does it spread out to Alexandria? Does Alexandria sort of get its mojo back? To some extent, because of the texts and ideas that have come out of it. So even though Baghdad has become the kind of knowledge capital of the Arabs, they're still looking at texts that existed in Alexandria, ideas from Alexandrian scholarship, whether that's Homer, Aristotle, even Maria the Jewish, because they're very interested in alchemy.

I think lots of the Alexandrian scholarship wouldn't exist without the Islamic golden age and the investment that the Abbasids put into that knowledge. So Alexandria was sort of coming back to its best. We have to do, I mean, we must mention another famous heist. So we've had one heist where they stole Alexander's body. Now we get another one. Venetian travellers stole the body of St. Mark. out of Alexandria. How do you think they pull this off?

Oh, how does you do a body? Well, what you'd do is you'd go to a fancy dress shop and you'd kind of like, you'd get a costume for it and then you'd be like, oh, don't mind my mate, he's had too much. You know, you know when people have too much of drink and they pass that and they're just dead weight. And so, and the costume would be, or they could be like the back end of a camel.

And you're the front end. Like a pantomime horse? Yeah, basically. So costumes. Costume. So, costume, fatty dress. I quite like that. That's fun.

Islam, is that how they pulled it off? Is it? I mean, it's, it's probably as eccentric or more eccentric, isn't it? They covered it in pork. And then swapped it with the body of another saint. So they just sort of hid it under a massive ham? Yeah, in a basket. They put it in a basket.

Okay, so we've had the kind of the Abbasids coming along, reviving learning a little bit. Then we get the Fatimid dynasty. But the big medieval crisis that listeners will know about would be the Crusades, right? Everyone is aware of the Crusades. How does that impact the city of Alexandria? Are Christian Crusaders marauding through? Is it a trade hub?

They are arriving, and some of them are sort of official crusaders, let's say. Right. And some of them decided that it would be a nice individual crusade. You have sort of big armies arriving, smaller armies arriving. and it becomes Alexandria a defensive fort for quite a while because it has to deal with these attacks because it's in such a strategic location. But we do need to say 1096, Alexandria had the world's first madrasa,

which, I mean, is that a Islamic university? How would you define that? Something along those lines, yeah, or like a school of legal Islamic thinking or something along those lines, like an Islamic law school where the religion is taught, rules are taught. So Alexandria becomes a haven for Shia Muslims at one stage and then these madrasas open, Saladin arrives and it becomes a much more important Islamic hub from that time. Is that a response to the crusades? Is it like there's all these Christians

come around with their argy-bargy? We've got to like, you know, we've got to solidify, we've got to codify, we've got to just kind of find a more logical, not logical, but a consistent way to spread our messages and word. To some extent and interestingly, in Alexandria because the Jews had been there for even longer than the Christians and Muslims, the Jews began to flourish again in that time. So, you know, we have scholars who escape persecution to Alexandria in the 11th century. You know, the only medieval work compiling all aspects of Jewish observance was written in Alexandria, you know, the mission of Torah.

Oh, really? Okay. So it's becoming multicultural again. So Saladin famously was quite a tolerant guy. so back to its best and then we get the Mamluk dynasty and then the Mongols are marauding in Baghdad and so there are sort of big kind of history changes happening throughout but the city is always diverse

it's always a trading hub and it's also a place of learning throughout this but then the 14th century brings some disasters Athena do you know what happens in the 1340s Black Death? Yeah yeah but it reached all the way to Alexandria yeah because of the harbour

everything reached Alexandria, good stuff and bad stuff. Yeah, and there was an... All the crazes get to Alexandria first. Right, exactly. The coffee and chess and that kind of stuff. Dubai chocolate, yeah. All of it. So the good stuff, chess and chocolate, nice.

Plague less so. There's also the Alexandrian Crusade, which kills 4,000 people. Some real tough times happening in the 1300s, the 14th century. And then you get the city under new management again. This time is the Ottoman Turks Islam. and this is where the city does actually decline quite visibly. It does, I mean, late 18th century, we're talking. How old enough, 15th century Ottomans, right?

So it's 300 years. So we're into the 1500s, yeah? So we're into the 1500s, and that's when? Yeah, so the Ottomans captured Egypt in 1517. Okay. And that's probably the least exciting part of Alexandria's history. It does dwindle. We know the population during the later Ottoman time,

So 18th centuries, it's about 15,000. So that's nothing like what it was before, which was always in the hundreds of thousands. Yeah, you said a city of a million at one point. Did they find a birth control again? Is that what it was? But there is, of course, a famously big guy. Well, he's famously not big, of course,

but he shows up in the late 1700s. He's a Corsican. He's a Frenchman. Napoleon. He arrives in Alexandria because he's a big fanboy of Alexander Gray. And his trip to Egypt is famously violent. He goes around, you know, attacking armies and whatnot. But he also brings scholars, his famous savants, his artist, his archaeologists, right?

He arrives at Feros, you know, where Alexander was because he wants to emulate him. He does this wonderful speech to his soldiers about how they have to respect the locals and respect the faith of the locals, as Alexander did. And then he literally blows up the synagogue, which, by the way, has recently been renovated and very beautiful. He kills 700 locals as he enters the city. The locals, in turn, introduce the French to hashish. There's one source that suggests that Napoleon may have had his one and only gay encounter in Alexandria as a way of emulating Alexander. Right.

Did someone come up dressed as Hercules, Babe Royal? And all they wanted to do was build something, but he got the wrong in the stick. As you say as well, they are serious about Egyptian archaeology. They draw a lot of really nice pictures of Egypt at the time. But they also take, well, help themselves to lots of stuff from Egypt as well. And I don't mean like little things. I mean things like obelisks. Yeah, they are transporting enormous statues, obelisks.

Famously later, the Rosetta Stone, which is not in Alexandria, but comes true. Rosetta is just about 30 miles. Rashid, yeah, in Arabic, is about 30 miles east of Alexandria, which is where they stumble on on the Rosetta Stone. They also name things after Cleopatra that have nothing to do with her. So, you know, for example, the obelisk, the Cleopatra's needle in London and the one in New York, you know, they're from the 15th century BC, you know, dedicated to the sun god Ra. And they called them Cleopatra's needle.

And, of course, the British are there too. I mean, famously, you know, the Battle of the Nile, you've got Lord Nelson fighting against Napoleon. In 1803, two British troops climbed onto Pompey's pillar and displayed a union jack on top. Well, but that would have just what they did, isn't it? That's standard, isn't it? That sort of happens in most British cities on the Friday night. They gave three cheers, there's a king. There's a traffic cone on its head.

Yeah. Do you know what they were called? What, the... The two Brits. No? Steve. Almost. Keep going.

Dave. They were both called John. John. John and John and John's. And they had a beefsteak dinner on top of the kind of Pompey pillow, which is very British, isn't it? It's also got nothing to do with Pompey. Again, of course. Okay, right, fine.

There's a Greek inscription at the bottom that says Publius, Puglius, governor of Egypt, and the Crusaders it was who read Publius as Pompey. The British presence in Alexandria did not last that long. In 1817, they signed an agreement to leave Egypt, and in comes a guy called Muhammad Ali. Not that one. Not that one. That'd have been amazing, but not that one.

He's ruling with Ottoman support Islam. What's his sort of situation? Well, I mean, he's originally from what's today in Greece, but he's got Albanian heritage. Oh, right. He doesn't really want to rule with the Ottomans, but he begins to develop so much power that they eventually agree that he can kind of represent them.

Okay. But rather autonomously. he's somebody who really works on reconnecting Alexandria to the rest of the world he begins for example the cotton trade yeah which is massive you know Egyptian cotton hugely important there's a cotton exchange in Alexandria he builds the trams and trains and does a lot of stuff for the infrastructure and he welcomes Europeans in as well and there are French and Arabic newspapers being printed in printing presses so it's Again, it's a city of culture and learning and multicultural, multi-language, multi-faith.

And again, the sort of city is revived. Not necessarily the full glory days, but it's coming back alive after the kind of Ottoman decline. And also, importantly, officials, you know, civil officials and religious officials and military officials have to wear a fez. From then on. Oh, really? So, I mean, I have no objections. I mean, I don't know why we don't do that all over the world everywhere. I'm not sure why we're not all wearing fizzes right now.

Sorry, I forgot mine. And the city becomes interesting cultural again. In 1897, the Lumiere brothers shot a film there in the city. So it's, you know, the Egyptian cinema industry is famous, like they're of great filmmakers. But it starts so early 1897. Sorry to bring you back, but I think Athena will like this. Muhammad Ali, he's known as the father of Egypt, and he died leaving behind 95 children. I mean, again, ran out of birth control.

95 children. How many wires did he have? I don't know. He probably didn't know either. He probably ran out. I don't know. 12, 13, I have lost again. So we get something called the Nada, the Arab Enlightenment. Have I mispronounced that?

Nathar, yeah. Nathar, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, so, as you said, the Lumier brothers go to Alexandria. Everyone's excited. You know, we have Ian Forster, among others, who writes a history of the city. He writes about losing his virginity to a young... There's something in the water, mate.

Tram conductor Oh Actually, by the water Yeah, yeah And then as you say We have the Egyptian cultural renaissance as well Because don't forget that the Europeans are there And you know

We said Egyptology European Egyptology has begun Well you know There's lots of stuff being plundered Reports of you know Tomb findings being used as decor for homes Yeah And they use mummy cases for cooking fuel

And things like that So Egyptians want to have some autot And one way of doing that is through this, what's called this kind of Arab cultural awakening, the Nathda, which is a way of sort of creating cultural autonomy as a way of countering the European influence at the time. Does it work? Arguably it does because, of course, Britain had ruled Egypt from 1882 until the revolution of 1919. And then in 22, there is an independence granted, a partial independence granted, but certainly it's an important date, isn't it, in Egyptian history? Absolutely, yeah. It works in the sense that people realise they have an autonomous identity,

that their culture is capable of creating amazing things, just like English and French culture is, and also simply the subject matter of the things being written was calling for people to realise their independence. So, you know, to give an example, you have an operator called Cleopatra and Anthony, where Cleopatra is the hero, and it's played by, you know, Alexandrian artists and actors,

that kind of use of Egyptian instruments, all of these things that suggest autonomy and independence. Yeah, of course. So they did Alexandra and Cleopatra the musical before, like, Tina the musical, before Back to the Future. They were like, on it. That's very ahead of their time. And of course, 1922 is when Tudun Kharmun was discovered.

So again, another hugely important moment in terms of Egyptian pride and its history and heritage, so the same year as Independence. But by the mid-20th century, so the 40s, 50s, 60s, Alexandria is the home of anti-monarchical revolution and radicalism as well, isn't it? It's a city of politics. Yeah, and it's interesting because the king was often residing in Alexandria, in the palace there. And then when he's kicked out of Egypt, he's kicked out from Alexandria. This is King Farouk, exactly. And, you know, he was popular with many, but out of touch with many as well.

You know, there are recurring rumours that he was eating 600 oysters a week. Yeah, maybe he needed a zinc. Okay, maybe he was deficient, guys. Or maybe he was trying to, you know, the population boom was just him. He was just like, come on. There's also a famous rumor that his breakfast was delivered by air from Paris. Oh, my word. That's great.

Quassar, all the way from Paris, please. So he's replaced in 1952 by NASA, the prime minister, who sort of becomes a president figure, doesn't he? He does. I mean, NASA doesn't become the first. first president. He's sort of the deputy to Nagib who becomes first president, but Nassau becomes the famous president from a few months later. It's a time of rising Arab nationalism. Okay, so there is a sort of sense of the city becoming an Arab cultural center? It's interesting because I wouldn't say it's an exodus of non-Egyptians because they were all

Egyptians. Right. So, you know, the Jews were Egyptians. You know, in 1947, there's still over 20,000 Jews in Alexandria. I found the statistics. that 4% of them married non-Jews in the 10 years preceding. So there was intermarriage and so on. In 48, with the founding of Israel and so on, many of them leave. Then with the Arab nationalism, many more are expelled. And if that includes the Jews, it also includes some Europeans as well, who leave in the 50s and 60s.

And of course, there's the war in 67, Conflicts again in 73 There are kind of the sort of geopolitical situation Then obviously between Israel and Egypt Yeah, three, three wars essentially 67, 70 and 73 That war with Israel leads to an intensification Of both Arab and Muslim identities in Egypt And that affects Alexandria more than affects other cities

Because Alexandria is so diverse Yeah And today Alexandria is a beautiful city And is still linked back to its history, I mean, it's an extraordinary story, Athena, isn't it? It's sort of weird how it kind of goes around in circles as well. Like, it's kind of like multiculturalism, liberalism, and then something else, and then back to that, and then back to that, and back to that.

So it's a city that's always fighting to be a certain place. The nuance window! Time now for the nuance window. This is where Athena and I sit in the quiet section of the library for two minutes, while Professor Islam tells us something we need to know about Alex. So take it away, Professor Issa. I want to say something obvious, that there's much to gain when Egypt is studied by an Egyptian,

or in this case, an Alexandrian. Like me, Alexandrians today are the 100th generation to carry that name. Even as a child, darting across the promenade, Cleopatra embossed pocket money clinking in my pocket, I felt the city's magnitude, its history in the air. History is not just dates, wars and figures. Here there were ideas, inventions, dreams, love, hate, and the occasional miracle. To capture this tapestry, scholarship alone isn't enough.

I discovered and translated 9th century Islamic poetry about Alexander and 11th century letters from Alexandrian Jews. I took in folk tales and oral histories. I drank tea with family elders and friendly strangers. I chatted with librarians and eccentric vagabonds. Being a flaneur became as vital as pouring over dusty archives. Coffee reached Alexandria before Italy and a century before England, so cafes fittingly became central to my experience.

In one, the barista wrote my name on the cup in beautiful Arabic, and I almost wept, overwhelmed by its sheer normality. In another, I paused at a portrait of Alexander blowing a big pink bubble. In cafes, I heard a dozen theories about his tomb's location. It confirmed, impossible to a non-native speaker or cultural outsider, that Alexander lives on in the city's collective consciousness. Armed with linguistic and colloquial fluency, with cultural knowledge and memory, I roamed Alexandria's streets, unraveling the threads woven into its soul,

the invisible stories hidden in plain sight. With its universal appeal, Egypt continues to be explored, even claimed, by scholars whose narratives at best miss the nuances of its culture and history, and at worst, undermine or erase the people for whom that history isn't a mere curiosity or day job, but a defining, enduring identity. People often ask what Alexandria means to me, expecting facts and figures about an ancient city. but for me it's people watching from the balcony it's cats weaving around my feet it's the sound of a classical Egyptian melody echoing in a moonlit cafe thank you so much that's beautiful

I've seen any thoughts I've done a few your dead to me's which is a real honour this is probably the one that makes me want to go and book a holiday like right now what a lovely way to contextualise history as something it's here today and it's inherited by the people who are present there

and the diversity of it and I think that's a wonderful advertisement. What a lovely way to position it rather than in 1060 cents. It's more like, come and have a coffee. We'll write your name Lama on it. It's lovely. So what do you know now?

It's time now for the So What Do You Know Now? Which is our quick fire quiz for our comedian Athena. Athena, your notes have been pretty extensive. I've heard you scribbling away. I know. My sandwriting is so bad, though. Oh, no. Okay.

We've got ten questions for you. Here we go. Question one. Which wonder of the world was built on Feros in Ptolemaic Alexandria? Lighthouse. It was, the lighthouse. Question two. Alexandria is named after which ancient ruler?

Alexandria is great. Yeah, that's an easy one, isn't it? Question three. How did librarians in Alexandria expand their book collections? They stole books. They nicked books. When ships were leaving, they were like, give me your book, and they'd nick the book and give back a counterfeit.

That's right. Amazing. Hand back a copy. Question four. Why was Alexandria popular for wannabe saints? Because you could get laid. Lots of sex. Yeah, basically lots of sex.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. City of Temptations. Question five. Which Alexandrian mathematician, killed by Christians, has been described as a martyr to philosophy. H. Yeah. I wrote it down.

I've got Hippacia. Yeah, hypatia. Yeah, very good. Excellent. Question six. In 828, how did Venetian merchants smuggle out St. Mark's body from Alexandria. They covered him in bacon or another pork product, salami.

Turned him with a BLT. I think it was pickled. Pickled. Pickled. Oh. Yeah. Ham and pickles. A perfect sandwich. Question seven. Name one of the factors which led to social and economic decline in Alexandria in the 14th century. Oh, Black Death.

Yeah, big old plague and earthquakes and all sorts of things. Question 8. By 1096, Alexandria had the world's first madrasa. What is a madrasa? A school of Islamic teaching. and law, yeah, absolutely. Question nine. Name the most famous artifact plundered from near to Alexandria during Napoleon's campaigns in Egypt. It was at a stone? It was, yeah, about 30 miles away from the city. And question 10 for a perfect 10 out of 10 in the late 19th and 20th century, what was the Nardda movement? The culture, a cultural renaissance. Very good, amazing dar. Yeah, never in doubt,

10 out 10. Athena, so good. So relieved. Question 11. St. Mary enjoyed casual sex for 17 years. Yeah, that should have been in there, shouldn't there? Come on, let's be honest. All right, 11 out of 10, well done, Athena. Thank you so much, Athena. And listen, if you want more from Athena, check out our past episodes on Haitian Revolution. We did Madam C.J. Walker. We did Injinga River, Dongo and Matamba.

If it's you a thing, have a listen to our episode on Istanbul in the Ottoman Golden Age with Sue Perkins and Professor Ebrew Boyar. Plus, we did episodes on Saladin and Young Napoleon, both mentioned today. We've got lots of bad catalogue to go and enjoy. Remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, Please share the show with friends. Subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sound in the UK

to get episodes 28 days earlier than at any other app and switch on your notifications so you never miss an episode. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We had the wonderful Professor Islam Islam Issa from Birmingham City University. Thank you, Islam. Thank you, Greg. I take my figurative fez off to you. And in Comedy Corner, we have the awesome Athena Kblan you. Thank you for having me.

And to you lovely listener, join me next time as we explore another historical hotspot. But for now, I'm off to go and smuggle out my favourite library books, hiding them inside a ham sandwich. Bye! Your Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4. I'm Shari Valle. I've been investigating fraud for more than 20 years.

It is not. them being gullible or stupid. These are criminals and it's often very organised. I'm Dr Elizabeth Carter. I'm a criminologist and a forensic linguist. Liz, your red flag's gone up. This is this gap in contact. It's an incredibly powerful mechanism. I'm Alex Wood. I used to be a prolific fraudster, but now I help the police to catch people like me. And that's very clever because he's mirroring the bank and the police's own security messaging. Listen now to scam secrets. on BBC Sounds.