You're Dead to Me - American War of Independence (Radio Edit)

Episode Date: October 31, 2025

Greg Jenner is joined in the 18th century by Professor Frank Cogliano and comedian and actor Patton Oswalt to learn about the American War of Independence. Also known as the American Revolutionary War, 2025 marks 250 years since the start of the conflict in 1775, when the first battles between the British army and the colonial resistance were fought at Lexington and Concord. But what caused Britain’s North American colonies to rebel against the king and government in London? At what point did they start to see themselves as American and not British? And how did a colonial militia take on an imperial superpower?This episode charts the growing rift between Britain and its American colonists, taking in famous events like the Boston Massacre, the Boston Tea Party and the calling of the first Continental Congress, all the way through to the Declaration of Independence and the course of the revolutionary war itself. We learn how America fought to free itself from the shackles of British rule, and meet some well-known names from history, including Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and George Washington. And we also ask whose freedom was being fought for, and who – such as Black and Indigenous Americans – got left behind.This is a radio edit of the original podcast episode. For the full-length version, please look further back in the feed.Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Charlotte Emily Edgeshaw Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

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wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the BBC Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today, we are chucking our tea in the harbour and charging back to the 18th century for a very special 250th anniversary episode

about the American War of Independence slash American Revolution, whatever you call it. And to help our cause, We have two fearsome freedom fighters. In History Corner, he's Professor of American History at the University of Edinburgh, where his research focuses on revolutionary and early national America.

Maybe you've read one of his wonderful books, including a revolutionary friendship, Washington, Jefferson, and the American Republic. It's Professor Frank Cochleano. Welcome, Frank. Thank you very much, Greg. I'm thrilled to be here. Delighted to have you here.

And in Comedy Corner, he is an Emmy and Grammy Award-winning comedian and actor. You'll know him for many of my favorite sitcoms, including BoJack Horseman, AP Bio, Parks and Recreation, Feepe, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, the Goldbergs, the King of Queens. His amazing film career has put him in the Marvel Universe, the Zooliverse, the Zooliverse, and the Pixar 2 universe. He is Remy the Rat himself from Pixar's Ratatouille.

It's the wonderful Patton Oswalt. Welcome, Patton. Thank you, Greg. I'm looking forward to winning some big prizes today. You've played a history professor in 22 Jump Street. Oh, that's right. I did. Yeah, you did. Wow. I also believe you are named after General Patton. Yes, I was named after George S. Patton. my dad was a Marine, had high hopes, I guess, and I'm glad to be here today on this podcast.

I'm sure he's very proud. If you've played a historian and you are the son of a proud military man, do you know your fair bit about American military history? I like history a lot. I read a lot of history. I really enjoy Thomas Cahill's books. I love hinge history moments. That's something that I'm kind of obsessed with where, oh, something could have completely gone the other way. Clive James is really deep into that kind of world of, I think his quote is, like, history is basically a record of the way things didn't have to be. I love that aspect of it. All right, so I feel like you probably know a fair bit, but we'll be testing you today to see what's stuck and what else we can teach you. So, what do you know?

This is this, so what do you know? This is where I guess what you are lovely listener might know about today's subject. And surely everyone knows that July. 4th, 1776 was Independence Day in America. Or was it? There's no shortage of pop culture reminders from the truly terrible Mel Gibson film, The Patriot to the truly incredible Hamilton musical

by Lin-Manuel Miranda. Or for slightly subtler references, you've got Nick Cage in National Treasure, featuring a treasure map on the back of the Declaration of Independence or Will Smith, nuking an alien spacecraft on the 4th of July in Independence Day. Like I said, subtle. But why did American colonists rebel against Britain?

How did they defeat an imperial superpower? and can we spill the tea on why Bostonians spill the tea? Let's find out. By the way, we're both Americans. Did you bring us here to apologize for revolting? It's a little way that you brought two Americans in for this. All right, pardon, let's test your knowledge. How many British American colonies were there in British America prior to the revolution?

13? It's a good canonical answer, and that is the answer I would have given, but... But... Okay, the professor's going to say, well, well, actually. Well, actually, Patton, there were 26 colonies in British North America and the Caribbean. Oh. If I may, Greg. Please, please.

So what happened was the English, and I'm using English deliberately in this context, apologies to our Scottish listeners. During the 17th century, the English established colonies, the colonies we know of on the eastern seaboard of North America. Right. But under the stewards, they also established colonies elsewhere in North America and importantly in the Caribbean. And by the mid-18th century, when Britain emerges victorious from the seven years war, it's got 26 colonies. So there are the 13 that rebel, and just for our listeners, we'll see if I can name them, right? Yeah, go for it. New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia.

He's done it. Okay, so we've got 26 colonies, 13 of them on the Eastern Seaboard of the States. How do they work as colonies? What's the governments? Largely self-governing. They've kind of developed under their own devices for much of the period, the first hundred years after their settlement. And so each of them has its own assembly, for example, which they see as equivalent to Parliament. They've achieved a degree of autonomy as a result of this. And when Britain wins the Seven Years War, what Americans will call the Franchion Indian War, Britain emerges Victoria.

there. They have to govern this big space, but they're pushing up against people who've developed their own ways of thinking and their own ways of doing things. They're pretty used to governing themselves. Broadly speaking, they share this culture, which they believe they got from Britain. They talk about the rights of Englishmen all the time. And they're not wrong about that, but they talk about, we've got the rights of Englishmen. When we're governing ourselves, that's because we're English or we're British. And they've won the Seven Years War, which, I mean, you could have been speaking French pattern. Exactly. Well, Kildomal. Obvious question, Frank. How does it go so wrong? Because we've heard that Britain has won this seven-year war, this very expensive war, and everything is rosy.

It's a vanquished France finally. It has a huge public debt as a result of the war. And it's looking to pay down that debt. Here's a good factoid for you. The average person in Britain pays $26 shillings per year in taxes. The average person in Massachusetts pays one. so well pay up Patton you owe it the Crown says I'm really hang on let me get like you take Zelle

oh my God the government says okay you need to pay you ought to you benefited from this conflict you ought to pay for your own defense

and what did we say how did we react to that well Patton you may know that Americans love to pay taxes oh my God get out of my way let me mail this check in

So what the British did was they instituted various governments, instituted a variety of taxes, the most famous, the one we did learn about in school, the Stamp Act, of course, in 1765 is the most infamous. And that's unprecedented because it's a direct tax on Americans in their colonies. People in Massachusetts say, we pay taxes that are levied by our government. We're represented in that government. That's the way the system works. If you're paying 26 times more than we are, you're paying too much tax. And so their position is not necessarily just greed. It's actually, there is kind of intellectual consistency there.

We haven't mentioned the Townsend Acts. They are the one, they're the official parliamentary acts, which allow for the taxation of the colonists, right? Yes. So what happens is there's widespread resistance to the Stamp Act in 1765. Parliament repeals it in 1766, but adopts something called the Declaratory Act in 1766, which is basically apparent saying,

okay, I'm giving in to you, but next time you have to do what I say. say, because the declaratory act says, which always works. Always works. They say, we're repealing the Stamp Act, but the declaratory Act says, but we have the authority to tax you in all cases whatsoever. And the following year, they adopt the Townsend duties. The towns and duties are more import duties, more tariffs. So, Frank, these harsh parliamentary acts, they lead to violence, right? Because we've got the Boston Massacre in 1770 when British troops are actually firing on people. Yes. So what happened was the resistance to

these taxes is mainly centered in the port towns, because those are the only cities in the colonies. So Boston, New York, Newport, Richmond, Philadelphia. And that's where the trade is, yeah, Charleston, et cetera. And that's also where there are crowds and sailors who could be mobilized, things like that. And there are groups that form called the Sons of Liberty that enforce boycotts and resistance to these taxes. So the resistance was centered in Boston. It wasn't only in Boston, but it was most virulent in Boston. And as a result, the British sent troops to Boston in 1768, Redcoat troops. There are a series of incidents that take place, the most prominent of which occurs on March 5th, 1770,

an incident known as the Boston Massacre. Eight civilians are shot, five of whom die. There was a crowd of up to 300 people who are harassing British soldiers. Throwing snowballs, ice balls, bricks and so on at the soldiers. We get the Boston Tea Party after that, which, again, sounds like a sort of genteel Jane Austen thing. But it's a paramilitary organization, this, Sun to Liberty. They are certainly a political movement that is willing to use force or threatened to use force. And those threats are credible because they've done it enough.

So the background of this is Parliament adopts something called the Tea Act, which is meant to help the British East India Tea Company, which has huge interest in Parliament, a little corruption there. And this calls attention to people to taxation again. So a group of about 60 sons of liberty rather crudely disguised as indigenous Americans. They board the T-ships. There are three of them in Boston Harbor. They destroy 342 chests of tea. But they clean up after themselves.

Wait, they do? They do. They also, nobody's meant to pilfer anything else off these cargo ships or off the wharf. So it's meant to be a controlled demonstration to show that there are limits to resistance. So what does the King's government do? What does George the third is, you know, you've got the tea protest, is he sitting and stewing? Is he letting rebellion brew? Is he stirring the past until all things boil over?

Tea pun, te pun, tea pun. What is he doing? Parliament penalizes the colonies. The king and his government want to take a hard line. They adopt a series of acts called the coercive acts to punish Boston. Good branding. Yeah, the government of Massachusetts is replaced with the military, the governor of Massachusetts is replaced with the military governor. The port of Boston's closed until the T's paid for and so on.

There are a series of acts intended to punish Boston. and also to separate Massachusetts from the other colonies. Oh, like to make the other colonies go like, we don't want anything to do with them like that. Yeah. Oh, okay. Like they're being punished. Divide and conquer.

Very nice. That then leads to the outrage colonists forming the first continental Congress, headed up by the first president in American history, a great man from Virginia, such as yourself, and his name is... Hang on. George Hanson? No. Not George Washington.

No. No. I know that George Washington... Who? What's his name? Frank. Peyton Randolph. Peyton Randolph.

What? Who? Wow. Wait a minute. Go right ahead. Please. I've literally never heard this name. I've heard the name George Hanson.

I've never heard Peyton Randolph. I don't have a lot to give you patent, except he's a very prominent political figure in Virginia in the mid-1770s. He's a lawyer. He's a planter. He's a big deal in Virginia. And he gets elected to preside over this first continental Congress. So technically he's the first president?

Yes. Wow. Okay. And what is the Congress? What's their policy then? What do they agree? They agree on a number of things. They agree that the individual colonies should start raising militias to prepare for a possible war. Right. Okay. So that's a serious one. That's very serious. But they're not providing any money for that. They're just saying you should do this. They say that the colonies... Stand back and stand by. Yes, exactly. The colonies should boycott British goods. So they're responding to the British closure of the port of Boston by saying, we're not buying any British goods. They want to stop paying British taxes and, of course, not obey the coercive acts. And they adopt a declaration of rights in October of 1774, which says that they, that is the colonies, are entitled to life, liberty and property, and that they have never ceded to any foreign power, whatever, a right to dispose of either without their consent. So this is about no taxation without representation.

Yeah. Life liberty and property, which comes from John Locke, where not quite to life, liberty and happiness yet. We'll get there. When did you get the split between colonists and loyalists? When did that split happen? It's kind of two parts. When the war breaks out in the spring of 75, it starts because people have to start making choices, but really with the Declaration of Independence because it's whether either you support independence or you don't. Right, right. So in this moment, in this moment, they're still kind of British, kind of American and trying to work out what the boundary between the two is. So the Americans are starting to stockpile weapons. They're starting to drill troops sort of quietly in the corner. But the British authorities obviously not terribly keen on this. And so Parliament declares Massachusetts in rebellion. So particularly one state in rebellion. That tea party thing really stung. I did.

I mean, it's a lot of money they lost. They just really dwelt on that. I've seen Mary Poppins. The Bank of England. Very upset. So Thomas Gage is someone we need to introduce here, Frank. Very quickly, who's Thomas Gage?

He is the commandering chief of British forces in North America. He's also been appointed as the military governor of Massachusetts under the coercive acts. He's got an American wife, interestingly. Ah. He is believed to understand Americans. And Gage is in charge, and Gage is in charge, and he's ordered by the government in early 1775 to do something about Massachusetts. And so he wants the, he's ordered in February to kind of crack down, Massachusetts is declared in rebellion. He's ordered to crack down on the leadership of the resistance there.

In April, he sends troops to Lexington and Concord to both seize munitions that they, the so-called Patriot militia are stockpiling and arrest the leaders of the resistance in the colony. Lexington and Concord are now suburbs of Boston, 15, 20 miles west of Boston. They arrive in Lexington first. They're confronted by some militiamen on Lexington Green, and there's a brief exchange of shots. Nobody knows who fired the first shot. Eight militia men were killed. The rest ran off.

Then the British go on to Concord. There's a fight at Concord Bridge. It only lasts about three minutes. There's a larger fight over the course of the rest of the day, but the fighting at Lexington and Concord is relatively brief. Nothing good comes out of the suburbs. I've always said everything bad comes out of the suburbs. So there you go. And we then get the second Continental Congress, because the first one achieved some things, but now the shots have been fired. So what is the second?

It's starting to act like a government now. The first one wasn't really a government. It was sort of, hey, let's get together and coordinate our response. Okay. The Second Continental Congress is acting like a government because there's a warm. on, but again, still looking forwards and backwards at the same time, because what they really are saying, they're saying, King George, please intervene and stop this. They sent something called the olive branch petition. Yeah. 17,000 patriot militiamen are besieging the British in Boston.

The Continental Congress is raising an army, but they're also saying, hey, we want to make up. Let's just, let's just go back to the way things were. So they're in this weird, between April of 1775 and July of 1776. There's a kind of really weird moment where they're. They're waging war, but also appealing to the king to intervene and stop it. And Peyton Randolph, he's had to resign. He's no longer president. He's gone. When do we get George Washington showing up then?

When's his... He goes to the Second Continental Congress representing Virginia, and he wears his uniform to say, hey, I happen to be a soldier. And they appoint him, Commander-in-Chief of the Army. So the Olive Branch petition has been offered by the Second Continental Congress to George III. And George the Third says, he says absolutely not. He doesn't even read it. What?

But doesn't he even read it? Do you think he did that, like, as a power move, as an insult, or why didn't he read it? Professor Frank, give us a psychological reading. Well, to accept it is to recognize the authority of Congress, which he doesn't. Oh, okay. So he didn't accept it. And he declares the proclamation rebellion. He declares them in rebellion in October of 1775.

So at moments like this, Patton, we need a bit of common sense. Oh. By which I mean common sense. Do you know it? Oh, was that Thomas Payne's pamphlet? Yes, it is. Yeah, very good. Yay, I know something. Well done. All right, yes. What do you know about it? Nothing. Great. Thank you to coming in. Go right ahead. Please, take it off my hands.

Thomas Payne is an English radical who emigrated to Philadelphia in 1774, so he's arrived relatively late. He writes this pamphlet called Common Sense, which is published on January 10th, 1776, that basically says, independence is the answer here. Give up your loyalty to the crown. The king's not going to be there for. you. A parent doesn't wage war on its children. He can turn a phrase. The guy can write. It sells 150,000 copies. It's by far and away the biggest bestseller of the 18th century. I've only seen the movie version. And he makes an incredibly powerful case for independence. This is a reassuring and incredibly powerful message. And so the Continental Congress appoints a committee to draft the Declaration of Independence. And do you know who's on that committee?

Jefferson, Hancock, Clymer. Each colonel. who's represented? Is there 13 people on it or more? There's more? No, no, no. What? I'm wrong. There are five. Five. Who are the five? Okay. Jefferson? Yeah. Benjamin Franklin. John Adams. Roger Sherman. Robert Livingston. Never heard of him. Sherman's from Connecticut. Livingston's from New York. They're the two

that always get forgotten. Yeah. These poor guys, they've done so much. They wrote one of the most important documents in history and everyone's like, who? Who? Yeah. Jefferson presents it to Congress in 20th of June. It's voted for on July 4th, 1776? July 2nd. Oh, my God. American education, folks.

I mean, I understand why you've said that, but John Adams famously says on July 2nd, I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the Great Anniversary Festival. It ought to be sonnized with pomp and parade, with shows and games and sports and guns and bonfire and illuminations from one end of the continent to the other from this time forward forever more.

He's basically saying July 2nd will forever be. Boy, could he call it. Yeah. Why do we think it's July 4th? Yeah, why do we? And was it July 4th? Well, what happens on July 4th is so they vote on Independence on July 2nd. 12 colonies vote in favor of it. New York abstains. Then they spend the next two days editing.

And then they formally adopt the document, the declaration itself on the 4th of July. So that is the date. But the vote was on the 2nd. Adams recognized that the vote was incredibly important. But this is the day. Yep. And New York comes along on the 2nd of August and goes, All right.

Yeah. Guess if you're all going. Yeah, fine, whatever. You're a great word. The colonies are a buzz with people exulting the cause of liberty. But I have to ask, what about indigenous peoples? You know, what we might call Native Americans? What about free and enslaved black people?

Are their liberties mentioned at all? Is anyone thinking about them? And are women mentioned? Right. Excellent questions. The Declaration, of course, says all men are created equal. So there's gendered language there. There's no doubt about that.

Those three groups, of course, constitute the majority of the population by a considerable margin. There are two things you need to bear in mind. In 1776, the vast majority of people who lived in North America were indigenous. Right. Yeah. You mustn't ever forget that.

And in those seaboard colonies that are rebelling and declaring independence, 20% of the population was enslaved. So on one hand, we can say, this is liberty for me and not for thee. The question of what will happen to both indigenous people and enslaved people, the war calls the question all the time.

because both sides seek to enlist the support of black and indigenous soldiers, for example. We have the kind of horrible paradox that enslaved people are fighting each other for their liberty because both sides promise them liberty if they'll support them. So it's a complicated question. And for women, do any of the states allow women to vote? You know, New Jersey. Really? It doesn't get a lot of credit.

Wow. New Jersey is... Yeah, let them vote. Fine, you know. What are you going to do? Let them go. In the aftermath of the revolution, New Jersey adopts a constitution that allows women who can meet the property requirements to vote in the state to vote. New Jersey women are the first women in America to vote. Now, the vote's taken away from them in the early 19th century.

But there's a period of about two decades for women vote in New Jersey. Let's get back to the war. We get another big win, Battle of Saratoga, which is a huge one for Washington Army. And this is a big win over John Begoin, the British General. That's right. He's defeated by the Continental Army, not by Washington. Oh, okay. There's another general in command, Horatio Gates. Washington is...

Horatio Gates, good name. Nice name. Very good name. And Benedict Arnold is prominent in fighting for the Patriots. Okay. But the point is, Burgoy... Now, what happened to him? He's beloved...

Never heard from again. The reason Saratoga is important is it's the first really big victory that the colonists, the rebels, inflict on the British in almost a year. And it shows the French that the rebels are credible. Because of the victory at Saratoga, Benjamin Franklin, who's then American ambassador in Paris, negotiates a formal treaty with France. And in February of 1778, France recognizes the United States,

entered into a military alliance, and suddenly Britain's in a lot of trouble. The big military win that shocks everyone to Yorktown. 1781, the Americans defeat a big British army. And this is the end of the war, which no one has seen that come in, right? Yes. and the Americans defeat a big British army.

That's really, really important. I'm sorry. So what happened is after Saratoga and the French Alliance, the British concentrate on the southern colonies because they're the more lucrative and they've kind of written off the north and they send an army under General Cornwallis to the south. That army fights around the south.

It ends up going to Yorktown, Virginia, seeking resupply. It's blockaded there in the fall of 1781. One, a combined Franco-American army, marches south from New York. And there's some fighting. There's a siege that goes on. Cornwallis ultimately surrenders. Now, it need not be the end of the war, though. Right.

Because Britain fought France for 25 years. I was going to say Britain is a superpower. Britain has the means to continue. In the words of Captain America, I can do this all day. Yeah. The government collapsed because the war wasn't popular in Britain. So the war ends and there are peace treaty. Do you know where the peace treaty's held?

I don't Do you want to guess Philadelphia No it's Paris Oh Sort of neutral territory but not really Because the French have been a war right So they've all got to go to Paris

And it's a sort of big old kind of like We'll have this, you have that But the thing that's quite interesting They're discussing kind of boring stuff Like fishing treaties It's not boring if you live in New England All right, sorry, take it back And John Adams is a New Englander

So North Sea Fisheries an incredibly important industry. But yes, they are there arguing about fishery. How much cod can I catch? I got to know. But they do talk about fishing. Crucially, the Americans and British make a side deal. According to the alliance of 1778, the French say to the Americans, under the terms of that treaty, no separate peace with the British. We're in this together. The Americans make a separate piece. They betray the French. But hang on. Wasn't part of the British thinking that, fine, we'll let them have this one, they won't be able to sustain this. And we'll just slowly chip away at him and we'll get them back. Yes. So the British give incredibly generous borders to the new United

States. All the territories south of the Great Lakes and west to the Mississippi River. Wow. Okay. So that's a huge charge of them. Wow. Basically a third of the present continental United States, with the exception of Florida, which goes to the Spanish. And the reason the British do that is, they think this is going to fail. They're going to fail. You'll be back. You'll be back. We're going to get all this back. It's going to fall into our laps. Now, if we'd said this a couple of years ago, we'd say, well, ha, ha, they got fooled.

Maybe they're playing a long game, the British, and then we are going to be back. Who knows? Maybe it is going to fail. Yeah, actually, hmm, wait a minute. Are we seeing, this is a very long game. The longest of long con. Yeah, wow.

The nuance window. This is where Patton and I sit silently need to ponder our fishing-related treaty clauses while Professor Frank takes to the congressional floor for two minutes to tell us something important about the American War of Independence slash revolution, whatever you call it. My stopwatch is ready, Frank, take it away.

The nuance I would like to develop in the nuance window is this is British history as well as American history and we make a mistake in seeing this as American history only. We need to interpret this as British history as well as American history, these events, because it takes two sides. but also I think we should rethink our understanding of Britain in this period. To some extent, the American Revolution is a failure of the British Constitution. The British Constitution can't accommodate Britons who live overseas.

The Americans, that's what their message is from 1765 down to 1775. We're just like you and we have the same rights you do. And Parliament can't accept that. And Parliament doesn't recognize that. and the British Constitution, as flexible as it is historically, can accommodate that. And so to some extent, this is all a result of what might be seen as a British constitutional crisis that in turn leads Americans to create their own constitution, and they want a written constitution because they say the problem with Britain is the constitution isn't written.

So America goes off on its own way, but then Britain historically was often presented as a sort of failure for Britain, and it is, except the British Empire continues to grow and thrive. for another sanctuary. However, they learn their lesson. They don't give rights to settlers anymore and colonists. They don't say you're on a par with us. They don't allow them to have their assemblies, nor do they ever tax another colony again.

So Britain does learn and adapt, and its empire is not the same as a result of these events. So these are incredibly important events for the United States. We need to see these events as British events as well and see them in the context of British constitutional and imperial history. Amazing. It's exactly a thank you. Whoa.

Professor! Yeah. That was a quill drop. Do you feel like you've learned some stuff here? I actually did learn some stuff. There was a lot wanting in my high school and college education. I think you did great. Yeah, thank you.

A listener for more American political history, check out our sequel episode on Becoming America with Chris Addison. We've also got episodes on The Abolitionists, Sojourner Truth. We've got one on Frederick Douglass. For more South American independence movements, we have one on Simon Bolivar. which is very good fun.

And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to Your Dead to Me on BBC Sounds in the UK. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guest. In History Corner, we had the fantastic Professor Frank Cogliano from the University of Edinburgh. Thank you, Frank. My pleasure. Thank you.

It was a lot of fun. And in Comedy Corner, we had the outstanding Patton Oswald. Thank you, Patton. It's so good to learn about my home country of America. Thank you. And see you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we fight to free another neglected. historical topic. But for now, I'm off to go and chucked 340 chests of coffee into

Boston Harbour. It's not a political protest. I just hate coffee. Bye! Hello, it's Lucy Worsley here and we're back with a brand new series of ladies swindlers. Here we are in cell number one. I'm just shutting us in, Ross. Following in the footsteps of some all new criminals. Can you take me down to the other end of Baker Street? Certainly, jump in. Thank you. Join me and my all-female team of detectives

as we revisit the audacious crimes of women trying to make it in a world made for men. This is a story of working-class women trying to get by. This is survival. Lady Swindlers Season 2 with Lucy Worsley from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. This month, the Gone Medieval podcast plunges head first into the wild world. of Norse mythology.

We're battling giants. Dodging tricksters and confronting the gods themselves. From fierce clashes in Valhalla to the chaos of Ragnar. Monsters and mayhem await at every turn. Can you out drink Thor or outwit Loki? Find out now on Gone Medieval

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