You're Dead to Me - Anne Bonny and Mary Read: real-life pirates of the Caribbean

Episode Date: August 14, 2026

Greg Jenner is joined in the eighteenth-century Caribbean by historian and curator Hannah Cusworth and comedian Kemah Bob to learn about the swashbuckling lives of pirates Anne Bonny and Mary Read. These women and their adventures on the high seas have become the stuff of legend, helped along by the sensational account of their lives written shortly after their capture. Though they are famous for the short period they spent together on a pirate ship, dressed as men to hide their true identities, the two had very different backgrounds. Anne was the well-off and rebellious daughter of a merchant and plantation owner in Carolina, while the working-class Mary already had experience dressing in men’s clothing and working as a sailor and soldier. This episode traces their biographies, exploring their upbringings, romantic entanglements (with men and each other), and time aboard the pirate ship captained by the infamous Captain 'Calico Jack' Rackham, as well as their ultimate fate. And it looks at the wider context of the Caribbean, the transatlantic trade in enslaved Africans and the Golden Age of piracy which shaped their lives and choices, and asks what place they have in queer and trans histories of the period. If you’re a fan of swashbuckling pirates, women in male professions, and the complicated history of slavery and colonialism in the Caribbean, you’ll love our episode on Anne Bonny and Mary Read. If you want more from Kemah Bob, listen to our episodes on Hatshepsut or Prohibition in the USA. And for more swashbuckling women, check out our episodes on duellist and opera singer Julie d’Aubigny, Chinese pirate queen Zheng Yi Sao, or Irish pirate Grainne O’Malley. You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Naomi Weaver Written by: Naomi Weaver, Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Dr Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Gill Huggett Senior Producer: Dr Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hello, Greg Jenner here. Great news. You can now watch this episode and all future episodes of You're Dead to Me in full video. Just search for Your Dead to Me on YouTube or watch episodes 28 days early by subscribing to the streaming service BBC Select in the US and Canada. Thank you. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the BBC Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Jenna. I am a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are swashing our buckles, splicing the main braces, and sailing back to the 18th century, to the Caribbean, to learn all about the piratical pair, Anne Bonnie and Mary Reid. And to help us, we have two very special

crewmates. In History Corner, she's curator of the Atlantic at the National Maritime Museum and is doing a PhD and University College London. Her research interests bring together the histories of the Atlantic World and Black Studies. And you might recognize her name from her time as a researcher on this very program, it's Hannah Cuth. Ahoe me, matey. Welcome back to the show. You're the first ever research intern to come back as an expert on the show.

Oh, yeah, I know. Thank you so much for having me back. Delighted. I feel very proud. Like a proud dad. Like a little graduate. Yeah. It's wonderful. And in Comedy Corner, she's a fantastic comedian, writer and producer. You'll have seen her on the TV as a host of It's A Sin After Hours

on Richard Osmond's House of Games, on QI, or maybe starring alongside Steve Coogan in Chivalry. Maybe you've seen her sell-out tour shows, seen her at the Edinburgh Fringe. She'd go every year. She's also the host of the Icebergs podcast. You're very busy. But of course, most importantly,

you'll remember her from our episodes, our raucous episodes, indeed, on Prohibition in the USA. And Farrow Hatsh Shepset. It's Kima Bob. Welcome back, Kima. Hey, glad to be here. Can't wait to laugh and learn.

In that order. It's so funny. But I think, like, when someone does an intro, and you're just like, oh, yeah, I did do that. That's awesome. So thanks for reminding me of who I am. That's it. That's why I'm.

I'm basically just making sure that you're aware of your own CV. Yeah, I'm excited to learn stuff today. That is the plan. Yeah. We've done America together. We've done ancient Egypt together. Yeah. Today we are in, what we're doing, Pirates of the Caribbean today.

Love that. Not the movies. Yeah. Genuine Real Pirates Caribbean. So what do you know? What's your starting baseline of knowledge? Well, I love the fashion. Okay.

I love the fashion of pirates. I love what they're doing. I like, I mean, sometimes pirates are like really righteous, right? Sometimes pirates are bad, but sometimes pirates are good. And so I'm curious, I'm like, what are these pirates going to be? Am I on the side of the pirates? And I tell you what, as a very Robin Hood leaning person, I think I'm going to be. I mean, these are some very famous pirates who do, I think, border the edges of both bad and good occasionally.

Nice, spicy, complex characters. see what we get with them, but I mean, do you know the names? Anne, Bonnie, Mary Reid. Have you ever encountered them? No. Okay. So we're starting from scratch. Yes. Okay. Well, that's exciting. So, What Do You Know?

This is the So What Do You? This is where I have it go at guessing what you, our lovely listener or viewer, hello, might know about today's subject. And I reckon you might know a bit. Kima didn't know Mary and in terms of the names, but they are two of the most famous women of the Golden Age of Piracy. They popped up in the hilarious 2023 sitcom Our Flagming the Death, very funny show. They're in the video game Assassin's Creed 4, Black Flag. Perhaps you've stumbled across the statue of them at Execution Docks in London.

Maybe a bit of a spoiler there, sorry. Maybe you've just tumbled down a Reddit thread on their relationship. But how did two women from Ireland and England end up becoming pirates of the Caribbean? Why did they disguise themselves as men? And do you really need to take to the high seas to find yourself a girlfriend? Let's find out. Right then, Hannah. Bonnie and Reid, they're a double act.

We often assume they spend their whole life together, but they don't, right? They grew up completely separately. They do. Nothing in common. So can we start with Anne Bonnie's early life? Where was she born? What was her family situation? Of course.

So for both women, details of their childhood and actually kind of lives are unclear, and we're not always sure what is true. Not great for the historians among us. But it's also not that unusual for women who were born in the... the kind of late 17th century, kind of early 1700s. Our main source is a 1724 book called A General History of Pirates by one captain Charles Johnson. We're not 100% sure if that's his real name, if that's like a stage name.

But it was written very close to the time that Anne Bonney and Mary Reid were doing their thing. So he probably spoke to actually quite a lot of people, sailors, maybe people who knew them. And the book is a wild ride. Like, he is telling, wanting to tell a really entertaining story and it really captivated people at the time. It was a best seller. It went through numerous editions.

It was translated into different languages. But it also is still pretty hilarious today. So excited to get into it. Okay. So we should take it with a pinch of sea salt, right? Some of these facts. Okay. A bucket of sea salt.

A bucket. All right. So Anne and Bonnie is often said to have been born and Cormack in Cork Island. Right. And then we think she was born in sort of the late 17th, early 18th century and an illegitimate daughter. Also, the story goes in the general life of pirates, an illegitimate daughter of a married lawyer, guy with quite a lot of status and a maid. And it's a bit of a, like, boredy tale.

There's bed swapping. There's someone stealing silver spoons. There's twins. There's like adultery. There's a lot going on. But as I said, we're not 100% sure how much of that is just Johnson kind of telling a good tale. and how much is based in fact. Okay, so Anne Bonnie, actually, Anne Cormack, we should start there.

Yeah, I mean, some historian, it's unclear, but let's go with Anne Bonny. How many times today are you going to say, it's unclear? We should just get like a little placard of it, just show on the screen. Okay, so Anne Cormack, born in Cork, Ireland. Her father is this sort of rich lawyer, but her mum is the maid, a bit of scandal there. And, Kima, do you want to guess how Anne's father tried to hide his illegitimate daughter that he wasn't meant to have?

In a closet. Physically hide it. Just Harry Potter style, yeah. I mean, not quite in a closet, but metaphorically? Metaphorically, he dressed her as a boy. And I think the whole town knew, this was not a very well-kept secret, her kind of Anne's birth. And so he was like, hmm, how do I hide her in the house

without people kind of letting on? And they were like, sure, just her as a boy. Of course. So wouldn't people be like, where did this be? the boy come from. Right. So the story is that he was like, oh, this is a male relative of mine

that I'm like training up to be like someone, basically a paralegal in my law firm. Right, okay. And apparently people bought it. Okay. Wow. Also, I love like she's doing drag from a young age. That is a consistent theme.

Unfortunately, people found out and they decided to find a new life in the new world. So they traveled to the Carolinas. And this bit, we think, is probably based in historical fact. And at this time, as lots of our listeners will know, South Carolina was a real kind of hub for the trade of enslaved people. And so a lot of enslaved people who were brought into the US were brought to South Carolina at this time.

Figures are about roughly 40%. And her father, it said, kind of left law and fell into merchandise, which as a historian of this period, is often like, Oh, what are you selling cakes? And the answer is no enslaved people. So we think that's probably what he did as his job. And apparently he made so much money from that that he was able to purchase a considerable plantation.

And so Anne grew up pretty well. Yes, it's not a great start, Kima. Hey, shall we be responsible for the sins of our fathers? No, sure. But at the same time, she is living high on the hog. with money that comes from evil. Oh, no, maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm not on her side.

Okay. Oh, man. We've had our first moral quandary. Can you tell us more about Anne's teenage years, growing up? According to Johnson, Anne's mother died relatively soon after they arrived in the Carolinas, and therefore, kind of Anne became the lady of the house. And we don't have a huge amount of evidence

about what her, that kind of life was like for her. but we do know that there are a number of other women, even in South Carolina, who had this kind of role, even being quite young women, of kind of being like the lady of the house and overseeing the plantation. There was a woman who's kind of really quite famous in the US,

her name's Eliza Picney Lucas, and she at 16 was managing her family's plantation in the Carolinas, and then goes on to make a huge amount of money and is kind of credited as like bringing indigo into the colony. So that might have been quite, quite a similar role for Anne. She might have been managing enslaved people. She might have been responsible for kind of running the plantation,

the finances of it. Anne, what the hell? Yeah, she's not a hero yet, is she? No. No, okay. Oh, man. Don't worry, I mean, there's more to come. There's more to come.

Apparently she also had a temper from a young age, and there is this story, which apparently is almost certainly untrue of her attacking an English servant with a carving knife. Wow. Okay. Kima, our fiery-tempered Anne wasn't the only one with the anger issues

because she also managed to anger her father, the former lawyer. How did she do it? What did she do that's made Daddy angry? Ooh, hopefully, Frisome Slay. That would be good. It wasn't quite that. It was more of a sort of Daddy I Love Him type thing, right?

So Anne married a poor sailor, James Bonnie, hence becoming Anne Bonnie. And her father was living. and threw her out. He had wanted to make a good match for her, and this kind of relatively lowly sailor, James, was not the one. James was also really angry, actually, because he thought that by marrying Anne,

he was going to be making a little bit of money, right? She was going to be bringing a little bit of money to the relationship, and then Daddy cut her off. And then according to one story, she was kind of so furious that she burned down the plantation on her way out. Wow. Okay, and I'm back in. So we have our pyromaniac,

on the run. Let's check in with our other leading lady then. So Hannah, how does Mary Read, if it is Mary Reid at this point, how does she start her life? Is she similarly wealthy, as her dad also a lawyer? You know, is it comfortable beginnings? Not so comfortable beginnings for Mary Reid, from what we can tell, again, having to take this with a bit of a large pinch of salt. There is a Mary Reid existing in Bristol, in the historical record, and apparently she's like there writing a petition to kind of pardon pirates. So, Maybe we're not sure if this is like a family thing for the reeds. But her father apparently, actually, do you know what?

We don't know. Illegimate. Mary Reid's mother apparently had an affair while her sailor husband was away. And then to disguise her infidelity from the husband's family, she dresses Mary as her former child, male child, who had sadly passed away. Oh. So that she can continue getting the allowance from her family. These people are obsessed with drag.

So Anne Bonnie was disguised as a boy Yes And Mary was disguised as her dead brother Yes, so quite dark At the time these kind of mistaken identities Or kind of gender swapping dressing This was quite a common theme In this kind of literature at this point

So we're not sure if this is just like a good tale Or if there is some basis in fact for Mary Reid Right So we've got a theme established Which is girls dressing as boys Can you guess what Mary's new name was When she was dressing as a man? Mario

Not a plumber, sadly Not Mario You weren't far off, Mark Is that the English Mario? Classic, classic name for a person It's more chartered accountant than pirates, isn't it? And actually Mark Reed stays This person's name for a while, right?

They're living their life as Mark Reed But they're also dressing as their dead brother Yeah And there's a sense that we get that Mary dressed as Mark or dressed as a man even when the situation perhaps didn't really explicitly require it. So I'm not sure if you could sort of say that maybe she had more of a kind of attachment

to this gender identity or whether it was a situation where dressing as a man or as a boy enabled more opportunities and was potentially kind of safer in some way. So real. Wow. So she finds work as a sailor, dressed as a man, and then she becomes a soldier.

She's fighting in Flanders as part of the war of Spanish succession. Mary meets another soldier. Apparently they're kind of sharing a tent together, and she really falls in love with him. And thankfully, there's this kind of moment where she is like, oh, do you know what? Actually, guess what? I'm a woman, and he is like, absolutely, let's crack on.

And she's like, no, no, no, no. Let's get married, right? Let's not do that kind of thing here. I want to be your kind of honorable, honorable wife. And I suppose like, good for the kind of the people around them. They were like, yeah, this is excellent. Let's like, let's have a big wedding. They gave them some money.

And Mary and her husband opened a pub that's called the Three Horsesues. Sadly, I like that. Yeah, I kind of like that name. It's nice. It is cute. Yeah, because I feel like everything is like the lion and the witch and the wardrobe. Do you know? Yeah, I mean.

The Queen's face, you know. But they went three horseshoes. Hmm. Sadly. What happened to the fourth horseshoe? That poor horse. Oh, no. And also, you would have thought

three horseshoes would have been good luck, right? Sadly, it didn't work out that way for them. No. And the husband died quite soon after. And so Mary, after kind of getting maybe her happy ending, is in quite a difficult situation. The war is over. There's not that much work for a soldier anymore.

And so she decides to try her luck by going on a ship to the Americas. So as a soldier, she'd been marked. As a soldier, she'd been Mark. They'd been Mark. But, you know, Mark Reed's soldier-slash-charted accountant. Yes. And now, having gotten married, she was Mary Reid. That's right.

I'm running the pub as Mary Reid. And is Reid. And is Reid's her name. No, Reid is her name. Okay, so she's keeping her original... Okay, fine. Yeah. And now she's off to the Caribbean.

She's off to the Caribbean. Okay. Pirate life for me. Quite a tough start-to-life for Mary. I mean, it sounds very spicy. It sounds eventful. I bet she was never bored. Yeah.

I mean, that sounds like a kind of a memoir you'd write. Yeah. I was born and dressed as my dead brother. Then I became a soldier. Then I became, yeah. And can I say both of these ladies are on a slippery slope to lesbianism. Okay. So, Hannah, can you tell us about the 18th century Caribbean world

that Mary was sailing towards and was already there? I would say the Caribbean at this time really is defined by empire and enslavement by many ways. And historians have kind of called it like the birthplace of modernity for lots of these things that we're more familiar with today. The sugar plantation became incredibly kind of mechanised, highly organized. There were indigenous communities who were still in the Caribbean. I think it's often a myth that once Columbus got there, suddenly all of the indigenous people were wiped out.

But they were living often quite challenged existences because so much of the Caribbean was turned over to sugar plantations or coffee, other kind of cash crops like that. By the time Mary and Anne get to the Caribbean, this kind of imperial system had been going on for about 200 years. And can I say, that's too long. Way too long.

And so it wasn't something that was brand new, although we do kind of get the sense that English are like slightly more latecomers to it rather than the Spanish. But you've got the English, the Spanish, the French, the Dutch, all kind of competing for supremacy over these different islands, all there really to make money.

And Port Royal is kind of known as this like Denin, this kind of pirate haven, as is what is now the Bahamas. And so you've kind of got these places of, I suppose you could argue, lawlessness, but there's also really tight control, right? The colonists have to have incredibly tight control so they can run this kind of violent plantation system. Enslavement underpins all of it. Yeah, okay. So Port Royal was the sort of primary capital that moves to Kingston.

Is that fair? There's a big old earthquake in 1692. And some people at the time are like, it's because you're all sinners. That's why there's this big earthquake. But there's an earthquake. And a lot of the focus moves to Kingston. So in somewhere like Port Royal or in Kingston,

you've got a real mixture of white colonists, many of whom owned enslaved people. You've also got a small group of people who are kind of free people of color. Some of them might have been born free. Some of them might have received their freedom or fought for their freedom. And they're this kind of kind of,

kind of middle ground, perhaps. Many of them do own enslaved people, but many of them also have been enslaved. And then you have the vast majority of people on these islands that are enslaved Africans who are working in really brutal conditions, sometimes in towns like Port Royal or Kingston, often on plantations.

And then you have indigenous communities, particularly in some of the other islands, in the kind of Southern Caribbean, who are fighting against colonial control all the time that they can. Kima, what do you have? imagine the position of women was in this society, particularly, you know, Anne and Mary, what do you imagine their freedoms or responsibilities would have been moving into this world?

Okay, so I feel like it's probably like house stuff. Like people love, they're like, you got to, you got to do the house. And maybe they're making clothes or something. And I think they have to do things that suck and are boring. I mean, suck and boring is perhaps part of it. I mean, I get, Are you saying that they're working in manufacturing? I think it's like domestically. Domestic choice. Okay. I feel like it's domestic vibes.

Because at this point, they are making other people do things that are actually hard. That's fair. And there is a big, yeah, there is a big element of that. I think perhaps surprisingly or perhaps not, right, considering this is where Anne and Mary go to. Women in the Caribbean, we're talking white women here, we're talking free women of colour. had a lot more freedom and actually were a lot wealthier than their counterparts in Europe. So we've got loads of examples of white women doing exactly, as Kima said, they're kind of the women of the plantation and they've got this big group of enslaved people

who are doing the really hard work for them. But we also have loads of records of white women, and to a lesser extent, free women of colour, running businesses. They were making clothes at the kind of lower end, but they were also doing things like running taverns, running boarding, smuggling, piracy. That was actually a thing that women in Jamaica did. There was a really big trade to be made in like smuggling and contraband and running shops. So these women were actually quite big players and there was a large amount of like people were a little bit more relaxed

in Jamaica because people died all the time. So people were like, life is short. Let's just have a child out of wedlock and people, lots of the kind of like senior people in the plantation weren't really super focused on people's morals. And so there was a little bit more freedom to be had if you were free, right? If you were enslaved, you're living a completely different existence. Right. Oh, question. Yeah.

What kind of, what are we smuggling? What's contravene? Ribbons. It was quite a big. Wow. No, so you've got, ribbons was like a huge thing in sort of 17th century Jamaica. People are smuggling food. They're smuggling gold.

They're smuggling wealth. There's a whole variety of things. Wine. Rum, presumably, rum. Rum. So there's a big kind of, yeah, there's a big variety. But mainly ribbons. Just sort of opening up trench goes,

do you want any ribbons? Would you like any? Got the latest one from Europe for you. Yeah. Would you like to adorn yourself? But we should talk about piracy because we're here for pirates, right? We're here for pirates.

That's why people have tuned in. They want pirates. So, Kima, this is known, this period is known as the golden age of piracy. So what do you think it was about this time in particular that made the life of the pirate appealing? There's going to be swashbuckling. Yes.

Right? So there's swashbuckling, which do you know what that means? Does anyone know that? I do, yeah. What does that mean? Well, technically, it's an old phrase, meaning where you bang your shield with your sword and pirates didn't use shields.

So actually, swashbuckling isn't a thing of pirated at all. What? But that's, don't people say that about them? They do. They do? The golden age of Hollywood has ruined it. Interesting. Okay, so they're not swashbuck.

buckling, which is unfortunate. Maybe they're just vibing. Maybe people are like, hey, we actually like that you're doing that. We're fans of your work. You know, that is a really interesting point because they were. So they were different in the kind of golden age of piracy from about 1670 to 1730. So Amboni and Mary Reid are kind of coming in towards the end of it. But at the beginning, states like Britain, France, were quite into this kind of piracy.

and they would often sponsor it, like state-sponsored piracy called private kind of privateering. And then they were like, oh, no, this has really got out of hand, right? And then the first, we're into these guys attacking these Spanish ships, kind of on our behalf. But now they're attacking us and our wealth, and we are not into that. So then they kind of turn on the pirates and start prosecuting them. What are we talking about in terms of what the pirates are stealing?

Do we know? Like, are they nicking clothes, money, spices, people? The Caribbean is this real, center of, I suppose, like wealth extraction. And that is why it's so incredible to be a pirate in these waters because you've got so many ships that are moving from South America,

there's kind of Spanish silver ships that are going over, and you've also got then rum, sugar. I think it's not talked about a huge amount in the kind of literature on pirates, but a number of these ships would also have held enslaved people. And so the pirates were taking

whatever they found on the ship, and sometimes those were goods and sometimes it was people. Yeah, I mean, obviously, yes, as you say, it's, you know, this extraordinary diverse economy, I suppose, but these pirates will steal whatever has value. Exactly. And we also have this sense of the pirate crews then could become quite racially mixed because you would have like formerly enslaved people

who perhaps would be kind of taken on and would join the pirate cruise as well as pirates coming from Europe. And in particular, Nassau, the capital of Bahamas, or what is now Bahamas, was like a really thriving base for pirates to sell their kind of spoils of their ill-gotten gains. Right. So the obvious question, Kima,

how do Mary Reid and Anne Bonney get into piracy? What do you think their root is? They're bored. Oh, wait, wait. One of them had a pub, but she might not anymore. That's right. Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Maybe they just want more ribbons. You know? They're like, I don't have enough ribbons. They're just addicted ribbons. I've got to have more. Yeah. How do I get these ribbons? I know.

Say all the high seas. Women love ribbons. They do. Women be shopping and women be wearing ribbons. From what we know from Johnson, so again, this kind of big caveat, but let's run with it for a little moment. She's on her way to the Caribbean and her ship actually gets stopped and attacked by pirates. Oh, okay. All right.

And then she, they're like, oh, we're like. English pirates and she's like, oh, hey, I'm English. And so then I think she kind of joins the ship. And at this moment, there's this kind of amnesty on pirates for a while. I think the British government are like, okay, let's try a new strategy, which is that we all kind of convince them they could become like legitimate traders for a bit and see who turns over and maybe that will solve the problem. Spoiler, yeah, it doesn't really.

And so Mary, we think perhaps became pirate by choice. And we get more of a sense of she was like into the life. And so she's there with his husband, James Bonnie, and quickly it seems kind of becomes bored of him, decides to go for this much more dashing or exciting guy called Jack Rackham, who some of the listeners will know as Calico Jack. Yeah, that's his pirate name, isn't it? Calico's the type of fabric, right?

Exactly. And so apparently I think it comes from the trousers that he was wearing. So when Kima said earlier that she liked the outfits, I think that was those big trousers were quite big in the pirate world. Clearly Anne fancied the trousers too. Yeah. Okay, so Anne sort of dumps her husband for Calico Jack. That's right.

They tried to do a wife sale. Have you heard about this? Yeah. So they try to kind of suggest that like Anne should get an annulment, but that's quite difficult in this time. So they're like, hey, how about James, you have this wife, you're not really that into her? How about we pay you off, right? And I'll take Anne and...

you can get an annulment and you can just kind of start again. I will buy your wife. I will buy your wife. Hey, yes. These people are obsessed with selling humans. They got a taste for it and then, yeah, they couldn't let it go. Presumably she at least said yes to this. The sense we get is that she kind of, she's into it.

She's like head over heels with Jack and is just like by any means, by any means possible. We get the sense that from Johnson that Anne is a very strong character, that she is kind of making very firm, kind of fierce choices across her life. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so Mary Reid is effectively captured by pirates. And then it's like, well, this is, this seems fine. Yeah. I'll just join you.

Yes. But that's quite rare, right? Women aren't really common pirates at this point. No. So women would travel on ships, but women as pirates is incredibly rare. We only have like a small number of documented examples of women as pirates. There may have been a large number or a, so, a certain number that dressed up as men.

And I suppose those people might be lost to the historical record. And kind of Anne Bonnie and Mary Reid are kind of really noted because they are that rare thing, which is a female pirate in the golden age. But of course, at this point, they're not female pirates because they are dressing as men again. Sneaky. As soon as they're on the pirate ship,

they're back to their old characters. So it's... Where does that make her thing with Jack, like, gay? I don't know. I mean, Jack presumably knows because he's bought a wife, right? So Jack knows. So at this point, I think when she's in the South, she is living as a woman. That's the sense that we get.

But once on the ship, there's very clear like donning of men's clothes. And so how much this is kind of a gender identity that she is kind of into it. It's like the best version of herself. And how much this is more like, I'm not going to be wearing all big skirts on a pirate ship because they're going to get tangled up in the ropes and the rigging. It's practical. This impractical. All those ribbons, they get tangled up.

Indeed. So real. Okay, so I guess we get to reintroduce Mark Reed, chartered accountant. And do we know Anne's name? Her dead brother's... I mean, Andy? Andy, Bonnie?

So the dead brother is Mary. Oh, okay, I'm getting confused. And at some points, in some historians' work is sometimes described as Andy, and I'm not sure where they got that from. Andy, Bonnie. It's not out of the realm of possibility that some of the people who kind of...

gave their stories to Johnson, who was writing a general history of pirates, had actually come across Anne, Anne Bonney and Mary Reid. And some sources suggest that they met in kind of 17, 17, 18 when they were in Nassau. Some, they're definitely together by 1720. And their name, because their names appear in this kind of state proclamation from the government of Bahamas, the governor of Bahamas, sorry, declaring Jack Rakum and his crew to be enemies of the crown of Great Britain. Right. So at that, and they are Anne Bonnie and Mary Reid, and she's kind of given this like alias.

Sometimes she's known as Fulford. Sometimes she's known as Anne Bonnie. So we get the sense that she's kind of got this slightly shady past already. And they're listed with Jack Rackham as being these big enemies at the state. That's cool. Okay, so the previous sort of policy of like hands off, it's fine. You just please be legitimate, legitimate traders. That's ended.

The government's come back down hard again. The government is not happy with Anne and Mary. and Jack, and partly it's because they've stolen this ship called the William. And if you're into ships, it's a great little number, sloop, apparently very fast. I feel like I've got to say, you know, bring in the type of ship from working in a maritime museum. And, yeah, so they do that in sort of August 1720, and they kind of slip away from Nassau and they're off into Caribbean waters. That's exciting. The pirate eye for me. Kima, what do you imagine life was like on the ship for Anne and Mary slash?

Mark and Andy, whatever they're going by. What do you think their daily life is like? On the deck, tanning, having little drinks. They invent the pinia collada. They're having a lovely time and they're giving orders while they sunbathe. That's a lovely vision of piracy. I'm assuming it's a much harder life on a ship,

even if they are, I mean, one of them's dating the captain, right? So that's going to give you some privileges. But it's hard work being a pirate. It is hard work being a pirate, but apparently Anne could really kind of handle herself in this male-dominated space. She was neither mindful nor demure. Allegedly, and I think this might actually come from a novel, but let's go with it anyway for the moment. Allegedly she once used her sword to publicly undress her fencing master button by button. Amazing.

And another story was that she shot off. Was that sexually or none? I don't know. I mean, I think it's quite unlikely to have actually happened so we can read into it whatever we want. It's a real romance novel trope, right? Yeah, that's quite hard. It's very sorrow. It's very odd.

Yeah, but we do get the sense, I think, and I think we probably can take this a little bit more seriously, that Anne was, someone tried to sexually assault Anne, not on the ship, but on land, and she, like, she smashed them. So she was, I think these women were in this world where they had some, like, levels of agency, but they were living very much under a patriarchal system. It seemed like kind of Anne and Mary could handle themselves,

but there were dangers coming from either men on the ship or from men on shore. So, Kima, you've imagined them on the decks signing themselves, Pina Kalladas. It's a lovely image. The pirate life was pretty hard, but it wasn't as hard as the naval life. If you were in the British Navy, that was a really tough life. So piracy was a bit more, slightly more glamorous. I guess, yeah, it's a little bit less kind of proto-cru ship, you know, like you're on there, you've got your entertainment, there's a swimming pool, and you've got your Pina-Kalada.

but pirate life yet it was hard I think it was a case of choose your heart so if you were a pirate your average life expectancy was two years what sorry yeah maybe I should have tried to land that with a little bit better I'm gonna say it

it probably sounds crazy but that's too short I mean that's like the life cycle of a butterfly or something that's so short it's not two year old pirates right so they've like lived this life no toddlers we're not talking like toddler A adorable two-year-olds running around with swords. Yeah, okay. It's that they were very likely already at sea.

And what would happen is like a pirate ship would come across another vessel. Sometimes a Royal Navy vessel or a merchant kind of shipping vessel. And they would try and work out like who were the good sailors on it and would be like, hey, do you want to come and be a pirate? And would get them to sign up to some sort of like pirate code. And so there's an element here of, I suppose, like a different social structure outside the quiet. like rigid and often if you're thinking about like naval discipline very harsh life it's a little bit more perhaps democratic you're signing up to this kind of charter but you're also then getting i suppose some rights in in return so that it was much more egalitarian on a pirate ship than on a navy

ship there was a sense that when you then got this loot it would be shared almost equally between the crew like maybe the captain would get two shares and the kind of ordinary sailors would would get a share, but it wasn't this strictly very hierarchical system that you would get. And, I mean, people have kind of described pirates as almost like this kind of proletarian class of kind of, I suppose more like working class people. You know, people have different kind of interpretations of it. Nautical socialism. Nautical socialism. But, I mean, you do get a sense of, I suppose, like a different social order.

Yeah, I mean, the code's interesting, right? the fact that they kind of sign up to a contract. I mean, you said at the start of the show that you were hoping for kind of Robin Hood vibes. Yeah, well, I love that. It's like, maybe there is honor amongst thieves, you know? Like, that sounds really cute. I love that for them. Yeah, but the life expectancy of two years was, that's quite worrying.

But maybe, like, if you're in the Navy and it sucks, you want to die anyway. Maybe, I mean, you know. No, but Kima has a good point, right? There weren't a lot of people who thought, you know what? I'll give it a go. because at least this offers the opportunity of, I suppose, adventure, of wealth. And we know that a lot of pirates were kind of captured and tried and killed. But there were a number who managed to get their wealth back to their families in Britain or whatever

and kind of lived more comfortable lives than they would have if they were just an ordinary, yeah, Navy Sailor. There's another thing we should talk about, another sort of novel social institution aboard a pirate ship, which I think taps into what you were saying about social contracts and Pirates. and pirate code. It's a thing called, well, it's a French word, so matilatage. Do you know what that would have been? Matoletage.

The mataletage sounds like it's below the deca latage. Maybe the macalotage is under the boobs to the pubs. Boob to the pubs. Macalotage. Love it. It's a lovely theory. Doing that. Hey, if you guys do merch, get that on a t-shirt.

Boobo to the peeps to the peeps. On the back, megalotage. What is it? I mean, how do we describe it? It's an economic arrangement between two crewmates, and they split spoils equally. If one of them died, then you would get your kind of mates' riches, which is sweet, right?

So they would give some of the pirates' wealth who had died or been killed. They would give it to family on shore if they had one, and they would take some for themselves. And some people, some historians have likened this to an early form of gay marriage. That's what I was just, I was like, that sounds gay as hell. Which I think some people have said it's a stretch. Sometimes it was much more between either two men or between like an adult man and a much younger, what we would now consider to be like a boy.

But I don't want to kind of... Like a twink? It's like a twink. I'm just saying. You're not, I mean, you're really not wrong. I'll come back to that. So I don't kind of want to be all, you know, historians will say they're just friends about this, but I'm not sure if we can.

They were just roommates. They were just pals. Special friends. They were just special friends. But I don't necessarily think we can go as far to say it's a form of kind of gay marriage. But it's clearly an arrangement. And I think it is very likely that men were having sex with men on board. And that some of these relationships would have been kind of romantic relationships.

Our episode is about Anne Bonnie and Mary Reid. How do they first meet each other? Were they both dressed as men at the time? Did they both think the other was a man at the time? Because that's obviously, that's an exciting, interesting question for us. And I think part of the reason why Amboni and Mary Reid have become so popular is because there was this kind of generation of gay and lesbian historians who were kind of looking to recover Amboni and Mary Reid's story

and to talk about them as lesbians and that this was like an important part of their identity and we should not kind of skate over that. and it's important to kind of recover these women and celebrate them and kind of be aware of their lesbianism. And so according to Johnson, Bonnie took a special liking to read, but thinking that she was at this point dressed as a man. And lured Mark to the cabin that she shared with Rackham.

And then Anne revealed herself, I don't know why I'm doing. I mean, I know why I'm doing that, right? So Anne revealed herself as a woman to persuade Reed, to sleep with her. But apparently to her great disappointment, Mary let her know that she was a woman also. And then apparently Rackham burst into the cabin and found both women undressed. And then Rackham allowed Mary to carry on living kind of in secret.

So to the rest of the crew, she was dressed as a man. But she and Anne apparently kind of became just friends. Hmm. Sure. Yeah. We don't know. We don't know. We don't know. It's worth asking the questions.

I think this whole situation is inherently queer. I mean, it certainly feels like we've touched all sorts of aspects. bit. Hmm. That's exciting. I'm quite passionate about the idea that like an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We can't say for certain just because we don't have evidence that like these women weren't

queer, that they weren't attracted to each other, that there wasn't a sexual relationship between the two of them, just because there isn't like hard and fast evidence that that was that was the case. It does feel like a pretty queer space. And queer versions do actually appear in the 18th century. So there's a 1765. edition of Johnson's work where Reid is said to have entered

into the service of the kind of being a pirate purely on the account of Anne Bonny who was her lover. Yeah. And then later historians were like we don't want any of that. Yeah. And so I mean historians have questions whether the women were

really unaware of each other's identity which kind of suggests these possibilities for same-sex desire. I think it's going to be one of those ones. I'm going to be like the boring historian here and being like we will never really know It's true. We won't know. That's true.

But quite frankly, girls who dress like boys are hot. I'll say it. Preach. Yeah, I'm like, do it. Let me see those cargo pants. But yeah, I mean, I guess we need to talk about the end of the story because if they had a two-year life expectancy and, you know, obviously the authorities caught up with them pretty quickly.

Do you know what befell our pirate pair? So, Anne Bonnie, Mary Reid, slash Mark and maybe Andy, do you know what happened to them? Well, you said something about. execution bay I did I did yeah execution doc get murdered peer

whatever so I'm guessing it has something to do with that it does it does I mean some depictions

before they're caught there are depictions of Anne and Mary are not wearing all their clothes fighting bravely I think it's a second like another later edition they are there

with their boobs out And I think this was part of the intrigue of the time and the trial, their trial, which we're about to get onto, there are many mentions of boobs. So this was something that was kind of circulating at the time. It wasn't like the person who did the woodcar was just like, oh yeah, let's just pop them on. You don't want your nips out when you've got swords flailing around.

It's just not good health and safety. Not saying. No, come on, you've got to think about this stuff. Yes, this depiction of them fighting effectively topless or their shirt unbuttoned. this is their last stand. Is it the British authorities? Yeah, so there's a manhunt launched for Rackham's crew,

and it's led by this experience pirate hunter called Captain Jonathan Barnett, and he's employed by the British Crown. That's it, yes, I was trying to remember his name, Barnett. And so he sort of hunts them down, and he gets them at night? He gets them at night. Now, they were there on the ship, getting drunk, on, I think this kind of Madeira wine,

when suddenly it was panic stations, and they were being captured by Barnett. Boo. Do you get a big sense that, like, Captain Jack was not maybe, like, the best pirate? He looks so good in his trousers, though. Who am I to kind of comment? But they, so they leave what is now the Bahamas, and they kind of head to Jamaica relatively quickly.

And they're kind of traveling around on the kind of seas of the around Jamaica. And they're just not that good at capturing big amounts. of money. There's like at one point they seem to like accost this woman called Dorothy in a canoe who's just like paddling along with some provisions in the canoe and there and Anne and Mary apparently like no kill her right she's seen us now you've got to like you've got to like get rid of her and the other pirates are like no she's fine she's fine spoiler alert she comes back to testify I was going to say classic key witness right Dorothy in the canoe exactly and then I think there's some I think maybe there's some fishermen or some like people it's just really really

really small-scale piracy. At one point, they do manage to get a ship that's full of, I think it's Madeira wine. So they're all there, like, very drunk on the shore. And I think there's, like, one version of it, which is, Anne is like, what are you doing? Stop getting so drunk. You know, like, we need to be, we need to, like, have our wits about us.

And at that very moment, enter Jonathan Barnett and captures them while they're all kind of, like, off their faces on the shore. Yes. And the story goes that all the men were drunk, hid. That's all right. But the women, Mary and Anne, they fought pretty much

of the death. They were like, you're not taking this ship. Yeah, so it's Anne, Mary, Anne, and unnamed other kind of pirate. Do it if you fought. She was like,

Pirate's Life of Me, Gals. And Mary in particular is noted as like firing down in the hold. She was really angry. She was like, get up here, lads. Like, we need to be fighting, not like, cowering in the deck, being like, oh, we're really sorry,

We're really sorry. Okay, so they're captured, and they are going to be sentenced. Do you know what they're going to be sentenced for? What's the trial? Indecent exposure. No, it wasn't actually. It was for the much worse crime, I suppose, of piracy on the high seas, which is an instant death sentence, is it?

Yeah, they were tried for piracy, and death was going to be the likely outcome. It was there. But, I mean, I'm suspicious of all colonial court documents. But this one is probably slightly more reliable. The trial document is probably slightly more reliable than Johnson. And you've got these kind of multiple witnesses who turn up to say, yeah, these guys were pirates, right? They like accosted me, they threatened to murder me, they stole my stuff.

And so on the 20th of November 1720, all of the people in the kind of all of the pirates, except for Bonnie and Reed, were found guilty and they were sentenced to death by hanging. Yeah. And their corpses, that took place. and their corpses, the men's corpses, were kind of displayed as a warning. But why weren't Bonnie and Reid sentenced to death? Because they were cute.

I mean, go further than cute? Because they were very hot. Maybe they were like, can women commit crime? I mean, that's an interesting question. Was it sexism? Sexism was a really big part of it. It's kind of patriarchal system that they were all operating in. I think we're not, I think, 100% sure.

exactly why the sentencing, their sentencing or trial was delayed. But it was likely because they didn't really know, the court didn't really know what to do with two women and were kind of debating what their sentence might be or what their trial might look like. And then, of course, when they were eventually sentenced to death, then it was delayed again this time because they both claimed to be pregnant.

So it was highly unusual for women to be sentenced for murder, like for murder. and only about 20% of women kind of got that sentence. But when women were sentenced, they would often do something called like pleading the belly, which means you're basically saying, like, guys, I'm pregnant, don't, you might want to execute me, but please don't come for the unborn child.

Which obviously, I mean, that's, if they were pregnant, that would mean that they were sailing the high seas and doing all of that kind of, you know, well, combating sea sickness with morning sickness, it's a real, that's a tough life if they are pregnant. Yeah, I mean, either they dodged the morning sickness or it was getting messy because when I was in my first trimester, I was trying hard not to just like throw up on the 17th century manuscripts I was looking at.

So, I mean, but we know these girls were fierce. So maybe they were just, yeah, working through it. The sense that we get is that they were both pregnant. Okay, right. So we think with Anne, it was Jack's child. Mary, I think, had like, a lover on board. Dorothy, yeah. But there was no love lost between Anne and Jack.

And when she saw Rackham for one last time, she apparently told him, if he had fought like a man, then there was no need for him to have been hanged like a dog. Ooh, spicy. Yeah. It's giving real housewives. Real housewives of the pirate jail.

Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's a good final line. So Jack Rackham was hanged. Calico Jack, you Calico No More. What happened to the women? So the women were found to be pregnant, about four months pregnant. So kind of quick with child as a kind of early modern idea of when they kind of...

Well, you can start to feel the baby's movements. And so they were in, they were kept in jail. And it's a pretty tragic end for Mary Reid. And she died of a fever while in jail in Jamaica. And we think that because of the date, There's actually a burial record for her. So there's a burial record for her, which would have been, if she was four months pregnant,

it would have been around the time she was due to give birth. So historians think perhaps she died or died of a fever during childbirth or of complications due to childbirth. And so we kind of know the end of Mary Reid's life. That's very sad. Very sad. For Anne Bonnie, it's a bit more of a mystery. So there is a burial record of an Anne Bonney in Jamaica,

but it wasn't an uncommon name. So there's a burial record for her about sort of 10 bit later years later. So perhaps she kind of got out of jail. She wasn't executed. And there is no record of either of them being executed. And the kind of colonial authorities were pretty on it with their record keeping when it came to this kind of thing. So it might have been that she got out of jail.

Maybe she had her child and she was buried in Jamaica. There are other stories. There's one particular historian who claims to have like spoken. to her descendants, which is that her father, like, bust her out of jail with his, like, connections from South Carolina, right? The lawyer. So he kind of, like, apparently, bust her out of jail, took her back to South Carolina. And she got married to another guy and had, like, eight kids or something. And there are descendants, apparently, in South Carolina. If you are a descendant of Anne Bonning, please let me know. Get in touch. Get in touch.

And so we're, but we're not really sure what happened to Anne. Do we like that ending for her? Yeah, I love the mystery of it. Go off, Anne. So final thoughts, Kima, on Mary, Reid and Anne Bonnie. What have you learned? What have you enjoyed? Hmm. I've enjoyed learning more about the piracy of the time. I have no idea what's going on at that point in time or at any point before now. So that was nice. Yeah, and it was interesting to hear about, like, I guess them navigating.

I also love all the gay mystery. Yes. I think people on the internet love that the best. And I think it is important to, I suppose as Kimmer was saying, like, there is a really big queer element to the pirate life and to Anne Bonny and Mary Reid's life, even if we don't have like definitive evidence that they were like a same-sex couple. Exactly. I mean, they're wearing men's clothes, they're doing a life that is traditionally male. That in itself is fascinating and with novel. But yeah, whether they had relationships or intimacies that were, you know.

Yeah, and whether Mary kind of was. more comfortable living as Mark. It's not something that I think we'll get to the bottom of, but it is interesting to like explore these possibilities rather than just completely shutting them down. I love this like middle, like the pirate ship as this kind of third space where people can exist more how they want to. Like it's still difficult,

but also like, you know, we're having this like diversity. People are being freed sometimes. I think it's cool to have this kind of. of like unsafe safe haven. Yeah. Like it just sounds quite fun. Probably one of the funnest places to be at that time.

Yes, but you would eventually get killed by the government. So there we go. You know, live fast our yards. Well, don't we all in some way or another? The nuance window. Okay, well, it's time now for the nuance window. This is where Kimo and I

settle down to swig some rum and polish our cutlasses for two minutes, while Hannah stands on deck to tell us something we need to know about Anne Bonnie and Mary Reid. My stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Hannah. Anne Bonnie and Mary Reid have become icons of female rebellion, of queer identity, of living outside the rules. But what fascinates me is this paradox. The Caribbean is central to their story, but as a backdrop, and the realities of 18th century Caribbean life are very often absent.

According to Johnson, both women travel to the Americas because it's seen of a place of opportunity, whether that is making their fortune or in terms of living a less constricted life. While lots of Johnson's account, as we've said, needs to be taken with a large pinch of sea salt, archival records do consistently show that women in American colonies, like South Carolina or Jamaica, were much wealthier than their English counterparts and in many ways had greater agency. In 1721, a white woman in Jamaica named Alice Slaughter left two boats, her great tankard, feather bed, pillows, gold shoe buckles, and a large, great cedar chest in her will. She also transferred to the ownership of the enslaved people that

rode those boats and over 20 other enslaved people to her godson and to her friends. This level of wealth and ownership of enslaved people was much more common for white women, but some free women of colour were economically powerful and slave owners themselves. What enabled the opportunities of women like Alice, Anne and Mary, was the violent dispossession of indigenous people, the destruction of ecosystems to make way for monocrop agriculture on plantations, which by the 1720s were overwhelmingly worked by enslaved Africans. Part of what made Caribbean waters such a good place for pirates was the wealth that was being transported across them. Many of the ships that pirates captured were full of people,

as well as sugar and rum. We don't know what Mary and Anne thought of the violence that underpinned much of the life in Americas in the 18th century. We might even wonder if Anne left the Carolinas partly to escape her own entanglement with plantation slavery. Yet to celebrate or romanticize these women as queer icons or as proto-feminists while skating over or deliberately ignoring their context that their piracy took place in is a very particular choice given what we know about the Caribbean in the early 18th century. Amazing.

1000%. I was finding that really interesting when people like talk about this era as if it was like a magical time. And like it was extremely hard for some beings. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's sort of urged to romanticise. We do all the time with pirates.

We do all the time. We do all the time. But actually, you know, these are people who often monetized human enslavement, human cruelty. They weren't good guys and good girls all the time. But they could do stuff that you're like, that's cool. You know, it's complicated. It's really complicated. And I think, you know, maybe Ann and Mary didn't themselves profit form enslavement.

But the Caribbean that they were kind of taking. like they were profiting from or they were very much in, was underpinned by it. I feel like a nepo, you're like an slavery nepo baby. Like you're benefiting. But I think there always has to be like someone on the bottom of the thing, right? And so where enslaved people weren't, like that would have been children and that would have been women.

But then you have these people to put below that. And it like raises the other people up. It's very interesting. So what do you know now? Now, great, well it's time now for the sub-a-know-now. This is our quick-fire quiz for Kima to see how much she has learned. Kima. I was going to say, are you feeling confident, but that sounds just not.

Let's find out. I've decided to raw dog it and just kind of see how good my memory is. You will have noticed if you're watching that I have been using the pen. I'm doodling. So let's see how we get on. Yeah, your note-taking is primarily just very lovely swells. It's interesting because sometimes you just put the pen down and you just see where it ends, you know. Sure. You just got to follow it for a bit, yeah.

But not towards words. It didn't really write words. Then that's okay. That's fine. That's fine. You know, let's see how you do. Ten questions for you, Kima. Question one.

How did Mary's mother hide her illegitimate birth? What did she do? She dressed her like a boy. She did, dressed her like her dead brother, Mark. Question two. How did Anne's father make his money after losing his law practice in an island and moving to the Carolinas. A very naughty practice of making people do stuff for no money.

Yes, enslavement, absolutely. Question three, we get much of the story of Bonnie and Reid from a general history of pirates written by which sort of, I was going to say, celebrity author. He wasn't a celebrity, but he was famous at the time. Do you remember his name, the author of this book? Something Johnson. Yeah, I'll accept that. Charles Johnson, very good.

Question of four, what was the average lifespan of an 18th century pirate in the Caribbean? Two years. Terrible two. Yeah, two years. It's brutal, isn't it? Question five, do you remember what a matalotage was? The place from the boob to people? It wasn't that. It's like a kind of will-type thing. Yeah.

Where it can leave stuff to people that you like. That's right, absolutely. You can share. It's a bit gay. It's a bit gay. Question six, can you name one thing that people were smuggling in 17th century Jamaica? No, just kidding. Ribbons.

They were doing a lot of interpretive dancing. Question seven. Who was Bonnie and Reed's captain with the wonderful trousers? Yes. Something Calico. Yeah, Calico. Jack. Very good, Jack Rackham.

Question eight, what story was told about Bonnie and Reed's actions during their capture? Yes. Do you remember? Yes. What time was the capture and what happened on the boat? They were, everyone's drunk. They were very drunk. Everyone's drinking a bunch of wine.

And the guy comes up, the guy that's been looking for him, and he's like, I'm going to get you. And they're like, we're going to fight. And the boys are like, I'm hiding. I'm shy. And they're like, boys, you better fight. And then they fight. But eventually they do get caught. That was a wonderful summary.

Thank you so much. I really enjoyed that question. You're doing really well here, by the way. Question nine, what were Anne's final words to Captain Jack Rackham before he was hanged in 1720? You're a little biarch. It wasn't far off. She's like, if you fight like a man, you don't have to hang like a dog.

Very well remembered. This were a perfect 10 out of 10. Kima Bob, this could be faultless. It could be huge. How did Anne Bonnie and Mary Reid narrowly escape going to the gallows? Because they got knocked up. They did, yeah. They pleaded their bellies.

They were pregnant. They didn't get hanged. 10 out 10 chemo bob. Well done. Who needs notebooks? So I, like most comedians, have ADHD. And so I just kind of plan the rest of my day under my doodle. It's been doing really well.

Well, simultaneously hyper-focusing on the answers. You've retained all the knowledge and you've also planned your lunch. Amazing. Fantastic. It's powerful up here. Watch out. Exactly. The comedian's brain. It's, you know, don't mess with it.

It's a marvelous thing. Well done, Kima. Very, very impressive. Thank you, Hannah. A wonderful history lesson. Thank you. Thank you, listeners, of course, for joining us. If you want more from Kima, you can check out her episodes on American Prohibition.

A very funny one. That one. So true. And the ancient Egyptian pharaoh had Shepset, who ruled ancient Egypt thousands of years ago. I always have fun here. Yeah. If listeners want more swashbucklers, which, of course, as we know, swashbuckling wasn't a real thing because that's when you bang your shield.

They didn't do that. But anyway, we've got Epipel. episodes on Blackbeard, very famous pirate. We've got episodes on Groni O'Malley, the Irish Pirate Queen. We've got Chungie Sao, the Chinese Pirate Queen, most successful pirate of all time. And we have Julie Dobini, the French opera singer, bisexual, sort of sword fighter.

Very good fun map, too. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please subscribe to Your Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear the show 28 days earlier than anywhere else. And if you're outside the UK, you can listen at BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. I just like to say a huge thank you to our fantastic guests In History Corner, we had the incredible Hannah Cussworth in the National Maritime Museum. Thank you, Hannah.

Thank you so much. Great sailing with you. It was good sailing. It was a short life, only two years, but, you know, worth it. It's all you need. Yeah, we made it. And in Comedy Corner, we had the always brilliant Kima Bob. Thank you, Kima. Yeah, thanks for having me. It was a pleasure. 10 out of 10. Very impressive. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we pick up our nautical telescope and bring another obscure historical figure into focus.

But for now, I'm off to go and see if we can get more subscribers by podcasting with my nips out. Bye. Why do some brilliant business ideas come at Cropper? I'm Sean Farrington and in a new series of toast, I'll be looking at five more brands, businesses and wonder products, which offered a lot but didn't stick around. Including a budget cinema selling tickets for 20 pence and the toilet paper we knew from school.

I remember worrying about getting paper cuts and an area that you wouldn't wish to be getting a paper cut. Finding out what we can learn from their disappearance. appearance. Toast from BBC Radio 4. Listen first on BBC Sounds.