You're Dead to Me - Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France

Episode Date: February 21, 2025

Greg Jenner is joined in 16th-Century France by Dr Estelle Paranque and comedian Shaparak Khorsandi to learn all about controversial queen Catherine de’ Medici.Catherine’s life was dramatic from the moment she was born: orphaned when she was just a few weeks old, she was brought up by her uncle the Pope, and her childhood was shaped by the tumultuous politics of Renaissance Florence. At fourteen, she was married to the son of the king of France and shipped off to the French court, only to find herself involved in a literal ménage à trois with her teenage husband’s older mistress. But after her husband became king – and even more so after he died and her sons ruled France – Catherine came into her power as queen and later queen mother. And through her children and the marriages she organised for them, Catherine’s influence was even felt beyond the borders of France. She even corresponded with Tudor queen Elizabeth I!This episode traces Catherine’s tumultuous personal and political life from orphaned child to grandmother of Europe, exploring along the way the terror of the French Wars of Religion, and asking whether the dark legend of Catherine 'the serpent queen' is deserved, or whether she has been misunderstood by history.If you’re a fan of scheming queens, scandalous royal love affairs and dramatic religious conflicts, you’ll love our episode on Catherine de’ Medici.If you want more from Shaparak Khorsandi, check out our episodes on Justinian and Theodora and the Ancient Olympics. And for more quality queens, listen to our episodes on Emma of Normandy and Eleanor of Aquitaine.You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Hannah Cusworth Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: James Cook

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. You're about to listen to You're Dead to Me. Episodes will be released on Fridays wherever you get your podcasts. But if you are in the UK, you can listen to the latest episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. First on BBC Sounds. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously.

My name is Greg Jenner. I am a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are grabbing our crowns and galloping back to the 16th century to learn all about the famous French queen Catherine de' Medici. And to help us, we have two very special guests. In History Corner, she's associate professor in early modern history at Northeastern University, London. She's an expert on royal and diplomatic studies in 16th and 17th

century Europe, especially queenship. And luckily for us, she's also the author of The Incredible Blood, Fire and Gold, the story of Elizabeth I and Catherine de' Medici. It's Dr Estelle Perronc. Welcome Estelle. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk about Catherine. And in Comedy Corner, she's an award-winning comedian and author. You'll have seen her on all the TV, on such shows as Live at the Apollo, Michael McIntyre's comedy roadshow, Have That News Feed You. Maybe you've read one of her brilliant books, including her recent exploration of living with ADHD, Scatterbrain.

And you'll definitely remember her from our episodes on Justinian and Theodora, the Ancient Olympics and the Battle of Salamis. Welcome back to Chaparrako Sandy. Hello, thank you for having me back. And I'll tell you what, my ADHD is no joke. When you were introducing Estelle for a moment I thought I'm a professor. I was like yes, these are my achievements. I'm an expert and read my book Blood, Fire and Gold, which is brilliant but I can't remember writing it because that's how intelligent I am. You are intelligent, you're a very intelligent person.

It all went through that genuinely Estelle, I was like yes this is me. That's brilliant. Okay, well we've never had a sort of job swap before on the podcast. I don't think I can be as funny as you, I'm sorry. Well neither can I. Do you know the name? Catherine de' Medici? She's quite famous from history, but... I thought I knew her a bit, but then I was told yesterday by my history-obsessed partner, Mark Steele, that it's Catherine de' Medici and not de' Medicini. I thought that that was the way it was pronounced and that she was Italian.

And there we go. She is Italian. Well, she is Italian. Well, half Italian, half French. We'll get to that. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Catherine de Medici has popped up on TV screens

quite a few times in recent years, most recently played as a Machiavellian operator by Samantha Morton in The Serpent Queen. Maybe you will remember her as the scary mother-in-law in the wildly inaccurate but distinctively costumed Netflix series Reign, all about Mary Queen of Scots. Or if video games are more your thing, you might know her as one of the leaders in Civilisation 6. But what about the real story of Catherine's life? Was she really as scheming as the TV

dramas make out? And what's it like to have a Pope as your uncle? Let's find out. Right, Estelle, we'll start at the beginning. Actually, let's start before the beginning. You've heard of the Medici family, Shapi actually? The name rang a bell, but you weren't sure on the pronunciation, fair? Yes. All I know about them is that they weren't royals, they didn't have blue blood, but they were fantastically wealthy, which gave them status. So the Medici family, or the Medici family, were bankers and they rose to power and prominence. Good people, morally sound. They became, you know, very wealthy, as you said, and they were given titles. So then it created lots of problems and, you know, rivalries.

And Catherine de Minchel is going to be born into that very important family, both a very scheming family. Yeah, and Florence is their home. Florence is their home, and is their home and they're gonna become Dukes of Florence and Grand Duchess of Tuscany but they also love the arts. They become very famous patron of the art and to say that I would like to say that Catherine de Medici is actually one of the greatest patrons of the art of the second half of the 16th century. What's about the Kardashians. Oh my god.

I'm so sorry Estelle. Estelle do you want to lie down? I think I do. I shall never bring them into a conversation about Catherine again. So Catherine was born Catherina. So your question is about your dear Catherine. Yes she was born Catherina. Catherine of Demidici.

Her father is Lorenzo II Demidici, and he was given the title of Duke of Urbino by his uncle the Pope, but he didn't have the land. He had to fight the actual Duke there. You know what like... So sorry, so his uncle the Pope... Is giving him a title... that he wasn't his to give Yes, stealing a dress from your neighbor and giving it to your wife Yeah, and then saying you now need to move into that house

Yeah, you need to go and fight the neighbor, but you have to put into context of Italian Wars So when I say like let's be fair to him and the Pope it was contested they're into the second Florentine Republic he's given this land that he has to go and fight for he marries the French noble who is royal is that fair? Yes she's royal Madeleine de la Tour d'Auvergne so she she's from again slowly Madeleine de la Tour d'Auvergne actually I love I know I love her name such a beautiful language it's like I've said je t'aime to you right now. Greg, you must learn it. I'm doing my best, alright?

Because I'm my mum. But Madeleine is from French blood, so she's a very important war woman. It was all arranged, obviously, by the French, especially France is the first of France. Because I just discussed about the Italian Wars, French thought they had some claims on Italian territories and having an alliance between the Medici, who were not, as you said, royal, very important, to a very royal French person. They really thought that here they would lock the Pope on their side. They would lock territories, Italian territories, on their side. And obviously their heir was going to

be Katerina, Catherine, to unite in many ways France and Italy. So it was a very strong political alliance. Yeah. Because they didn't just meet in a bar, fall in love and have this lovely... No. That's a shame. No, it's the Pope who sets them up. And it's quite unusual for the time.

So you've got your classic Nepo baby thing, you know, Lorenzo's uncle is the Pope, that's always nice, very handy. And then you've got the combination of two illustrious houses, the Medici, French royal family. So we can imagine that her childhood, Katarina's childhood would be... Amazing. Amazing, luxurious, glamorous. Not the case, Estelle.

Not the case at all. Unfortunately for Katarina, she lost both her parents, so her mother died. Honestly, we say fever, it's after giving birth. So she died of childbirth. She died 10 days later. And her father, who had to fight this Duke of Urbino, died of his wounds from the battle. So at three weeks old, she was an orphan, but also the heir of a very massive fortune and wealth. But what's tragic I think for Katerina is the fact that then she's going to be

taken by her grandmother, but her grandmother is going to die the year after. Not a very robust family. No, no, it's I mean it's tragic, it's tragic. And then on the third one, it starts to become almost funny because the third time around you're like, how many people? I mean, seriously, to be like, more people are going to, because then she's going to be with her aunt. And again, she's going to die. And the Pope, the great uncle, is going to make sure that she is protected and well-educated. What's his name? Pope Clement VII. Uncle Pope. Uncle Pope.

Uncle Clem. It's a life of turmoil and of great heartbreaks. What I want people to understand, just for a minute, how lonely Katerina was. Because she's got no brothers and sisters. No, and it's very important to remember because then when we're going to go through her life and we're going to discuss her later, I want you to remember that she lost everyone she loved or could have loved and she was massively a political pawn. So when you see a story like Catherine's put on Netflix and portrayed as this mean

scheming person but you as a historian no different. What do you want to say to Netflix? I would like to say please hire me. Very affordable rate. As a historical consultant. So how do you think the Pope, her uncle Clement VII, secures her future? She's a young woman, she's 11, 12 years old. What do you think the Pope does to make sure she's got a backup plan? Oh, you know what, I'd like to think that he gives her some money for her independence and self-defense classes, but I've got a horrible feeling that horrible feeling that perhaps some bozo is found. Is that am I right? So to marry off? Some bozo is found to marry her too. Oh, I wish I was wrong. No, don't wish you were wrong. Because I don't think it's a sad story. I'm sorry, maybe I'm

the only one feeling that. Normally on this show I have to honk my problematic marriage klaxon. This time around I'm gonna honk my kind of sad marriage klaxon but sort of like they're both so young. Yeah but like okay okay let's tell the age they're 14 13 14 right but they're both the same age at least she's not you know given to an old man who's disgusting and who, you know, like at least and she fell in love. She does. And that's a tragedy of her life.

But we can discuss that. But Estelle, at 14, I was in love with the drawing of Morton Harkett. Okay, Chappie, honey, she's in love with a prince. She's gonna have a wedding in Marseille, in Notre Dame de la Garde. This little girl who lost everyone. His name is Henri, right? Henri, yeah. Or Henry for you British people. We love you. But Frances I is her father-in-law. It's gonna become a father figure. She enters a family. Honestly, I don't, I think she won that one. It could have been way worse for her Okay. All right. I'm not gonna honk my problematic marriage. I'm gonna I'm gonna revoke the honking but I am gonna say 14 is very young

Just psychologically and developmentally Between us and anyone listening, it's also it's also the age my grandmother got married. Oh really? Okay. All right. So only a few centuries after. Anyway, we're going on from that nest of parties. But at this stage, I think we can perhaps update the name because she was Katerina de Medici. And then she... But now she's Catherine. Well, Catherine.

Okay, okay. No, that's fine. That's fair. Catherine. Okay. So planning the wedding Shafi. Yeah What big entertainment say you would you lay on if you were the wedding planner for this big grand? Festivity now the king of France is laying on a wedding frost smile He's laying on a wedding for Henry and for for Catherine what what's gonna be at that that party? Okay, so they're 14 Yeah, there'll be a huge pick and mix The guests maybe a merry-go-round There'll be a huge pick and mix for the guests. Maybe a merry-go-round. And those orbs, those orbs that you go into.

Oh, zorbing. Yeah, zorbing. And you roll around in. Great. Yeah? Am I right? Am I close? I wish.

That would be my dream wedding, I think, zorbing and pick and mix. Oh gosh, it's not even near. But I would like to defend the French before saying what happened. Okay. Or shall I defend the French after? To be fair, first of all, it's from one of the reports of them. Not all of them said that. I love the way you're trying to lay the groundwork for defense here. We haven't even said it yet. I should have been a lawyer.

But yeah, all right. So there were courtesans and they dipped their breast in wine and offered it in menna and it ended up in an orgy. But honestly, it's what French do, right? Okay, so I'm curious to know. I mean, Sheppie was not that shocked. She wasn't that shocked, which is remarkable. I love it.

Well, you did sort of preface it with, like, be fair to the French. So this was at the actual wedding ceremony, not a stag do. It was the after-party, but the party continues, and what happens is that professional ladies dip their boobs into wine glasses and then everyone licks off the wine, and then it turns into an orgy. I'm just kind of thinking about this 14-year-old lad who's gone to bed with his brand new wife, like, waited for her to fall asleep,

and then tipped her out again to, like, lick wine off someone's nip nips. Yeah. You know what? I think it happened. Yeah. I mean, it's likely, isn't it? I think we can call it, what, a nipple tipple?

I don't know. I mean, a nipple tipple. You know what? I'm going to do that when I next get married. Good luck Mark! Okay so we have teenage newlyweds Catherine and Henri. They're first set up by the Pope, already a very dramatic episode of Married at First Sight but then the drama really ramps up because another

woman enters the marriage. It's all very late Diana. Indeed, Diana is appropriate because this lady is Diane, Diana, de Poitiers. Diane de Poitiers, yes. So this woman is very important. She's a noble woman, and she's a widow. And I would like to say that women in the 16th century are very powerful once they become widow, because they still have the wealth of their husband. And if they choose not to marry again, they're in charge of the household. And it's very important here because we have the rise of a woman, highly intelligent and

very wealthy, very beautiful. She's extremely beautiful. There's even a portrait of her with her breast out and nipple out. Wine on them? No, no wine. I don't think she was invited to a wedding. But she's going to become the tutor of Henry, the young man. She's going to teach him. She's supposed to teach him. Is he a bit Macron? Well, she's 19 years older. Yeah, 19 years old, totally Macron. And she's

going to teach him more than languages and classical studies. And she's going to become his lover. Okay. But I think the importance here to remember is not she's going to become his lover. Okay. Yeah. But I think the importance here to remember is not, she's not just a lover in bed, she's queen in all but name. She's going to become like his shadow. And for Catherine, I told you she fell in love. He didn't fall in love with her.

So she- My shoulders have drooped in sadness. No, think about my orphan girl who has no one all her life. Greg, please. Who has no one all her life. She finally falls in love with this boy. This boy is in love with this woman. This woman is so much more powerful, more beautiful.

She has more everything. I'm getting Diana and Camilla vibes. Okay, so if I just name that. So Diane de Poitiers would be the Camilla in the story. It's funny how they don't learn these royals, just let your children marry who they want. And so Henri is wearing her colours, the black and white, so in front of court he's wearing her official uniform. Worse than that, he gives her, well later on when he becomes king, he gives her a seat

at the privy council. So that's like making her Minister for Culture or something. Exactly, yeah. And so Catherine's got no way to combat this woman because this woman's got 20 years on her. It's going to get worse. And Catherine really, really wants a castle, a beautiful chateau called Chineau Sau. It's a very beautiful castle. It's the most beautiful castle. And Henri gives it

to Diane. Yeah, he gives it to her. She painted it black and white. No. It's even worse. It's like the H and the D. So H for Henry, D for Jean. And I'll tell you a story about this. But it's so, again, it's like I'm supposed to be your wife and you're giving everything to your mistress and in front of everyone there's no like trying to not hurt her feelings. It's like let me hurt your feelings and some more. I mean, Henri would sit on Diane's lap at court and play the guitar. Oh wow that is surprisingly creepy but I don't think it is creepy. He'd sit on her lap? Yeah not her on his lap. He would sit on her lap and strum his guitar like a sort of emo kid. Fascinating. With a bib in it and she's maybe feeding him some mashed up banana.

And he would touch her breasts in front of people like he was touching her her up and playing his guitar He was strumming strumming away everyone knew and the problem of course from her from a dynastic point of view And this is where it gets sad is that there's a fertility problem that Katherine is not conceiving a child So she can't provide the air that is needed and so that's the pressure as well indeed She's not conceiving but what's gonna be very interesting. is obviously they're going to try all the treatments possible for this. They're going to ask her, you know, to do anything she can to get pregnant, including like drinking donkey's urine. If you say to your husband, right darling it's tonight, I've just drunk a pint of donkey urine. I don't know how much of a turn on that would be anyway. No, it's not even for French man. Yes, I'm yes, coughing donkey piss is not really going to set the mood, is it? Estelle, you can say that I can't.

I just really enjoyed that. And I can only say the first half. So something we haven't said actually is Henri is not the dauphin. Dauphin means the heir. The dauphin is the person who's going to inherit the throne. He is the spare. He is the Prince Harry. His older brother, Francois, is the Prince William, the kind of the heir to the throne, the dauphin.

Yeah, we would not have given Francois to you know, to a military. No, so he's the backup prince until suddenly he isn't. Yeah, he died. He died tragically. Francois died tragically, suspiciously, Chappie. Yeah, he died after drinking a glass of water while playing tennis. And everyone thought it was poison because who would benefit from his death? Qui bono? This. Diana. Diana. What? Catherine. And Henri. And basically he had a secretary that was Italian that had came with Catherine to the French court and he was accused. I have to justify why I said Dan, because if Henri becomes king, she's elevated. Her

position is elevated. But I think she'd want it more than Catherine. That's what I thought. We've got a new suspect. Oh my god, I love this. Yeah, I thought she wanted that. Catherine's just concerned about having a baby and being seen. The Italian secretary is the one who takes the fall. Yeah, he takes the fall. Because he's got a book on toxicology in his library.

He's got a book called How to Poison People 101. That comes from a short story that is against Catherine. So they're really trying to play the fact that this Italian guy was linked somehow to Catherine, that he has this book and that he would have killed the dauphin for Catherine. So the Italian guy is called Monte Coocciulli, I think. Yes, yes. And so that's François as the secretary. So his death is pretty dramatic, Chappie.

Do you know how he is executed? I imagine humanely sniffing lavender and gently tickled whilst being given a dose of something that will knock him out in two seconds. I mean that's certainly a nice way to go if you have to. No, he's ripped apart by horses. You know that was my first thought. Yeah. But I thought I'm going to be optimistic. Pretty horrible. Catherine not ripped apart by horses, which is good because it's a short podcast. So she doesn't go down for the crime but there are people who believe that she might be implicated but they can't prove it.

Would it have been in Diane's interest for Catherine to be executed and got rid of or as a courtesan does that not really affect? Let's talk about this because I don't think it did. Yeah, and I'm gonna talk about this why we don't think. Go for it because I think it's really interesting. The Pope dies. Yeah, which is interesting. So Pope Clement VII dies, her great uncle. Yeah, and the new Pope didn't pay the dowry. And there's this massive discussion about, okay, we need a divorce between Catherine and Henry, an annulment, because obviously divorce at this time, we use it so much, but actually didn't happen, right?

You get an annulment from the Pope. But what happened was, and I love that, Catherine heard all the rumors against her, because she couldn't conceive and because of what happened with Francois, right? The dolphin. So she goes to see the king, Francis I, Francois I, and she gives this speech where it shows you how intelligent she was. Am I saying that she's not genuine? No, I'm saying she's genuine, but you can be genuine and smart. All right, and she goes there and she says like, I understand that it's not good for you to have me as your daughter-in-law and because I love you, you know, I'm paraphrasing,

and because I love you so much and respect you so much and you're like a father to me, I will accept whatever you want to do with me. I put my fate in your hands. I will accept whatever you want to do with me. I put my fate in your hands." And Francois, who had thought about the king of getting rid of her, because now she's dauphine and she's not good enough really for Henry, is thinking, wait a minute, this woman is very devoted to me, to my family, and he really liked her. They enjoyed hunting together, they were riding together, they were like... She was a great rider, wasn't she? She invents side saddle or she pioneers? Yes. And he really liked her. They enjoyed hunting together, they were riding together, they were like...

She was a great rider, wasn't she? She was. She invents side saddle or she pioneered? Yes, yes. She's someone who's very close to the king. And he told her, no, I'm not going to do that to you. Because he also knows that she's the orphan, always losing her family. And it's going to strengthen their bond, but the problem is going to tell her, but we have a problem, Catherine. I need you to give me... Well, not him, but he needs an heir for his dynasty. Because it's a very important theme, right, in the 16th century,

as we know, to have, you know, a full dynasty. And that's where, for Diane, Diane is starting to be scared, because right now she only has a little girl, young teenager, and she can fully control her. She's not beautiful, or they her she's not beautiful or they say she's not beautiful what is beauty honestly and she doesn't show anything I think you are beautiful as style. Shappi you're so nice. I think you're beautiful too. And you Greg. Thank you. And what's so very interesting is that for Diane it's like I can control her she's not a threat to me and my love with Henry but what if we get a new wife it's a new princess she's more beautiful

Henry becomes in love with her so then Diane is gonna help get and that's why I want to tell you guys she helps Catherine conceive and she's like okay let's see what you do with Henry and she said before you're gonna watch what I do and so she's gonna look into your little hole and look what they do and she said you're gonna watch what I do and so she's gonna look into your little hole and look what they do and she's gonna be like oh my god he doesn't do that to me no baby doesn't do that to you so then Diane enters the bedroom. Shappi your face right now. I know I wish I wish it was actually filmed you should film this podcast. It's like renaissance porn hub. It is porn, oh my god we're getting there! I'm not sure if I should be in the studio.

Sharpie, please. I'm a virtuous woman. I'm very virtuous too. And what she did was she come in the bedroom with a couple, she prepares Henry until the end. Like a fluffer. Like a fluffer, yeah. And then gives him to Catherine.

And this is how they conceived ten kids guys! And drinking donkey piss, of course. Forget about the donkey piss! Not just donkey piss, but also wearing cow dung poultices all over the body as well. And grounding up stag antler horn as well. But nothing of this worked, did it? Where do you put the stag antler horn? You grind it up and you drink it.

As soon as Diane entered to say help the couple, it worked. And they have how many children? Ten. Ten. Seven are going to become adults. Yeah. So it's ten times. Well, I think she probably did more than that. Well, yeah, more than that.

And I would like to understand that here, the humiliation for Catherine, it's something to understand that she's not enticing enough for her husband. It creates massive humiliation, resentment towards, because even if you see the two women working towards a goal, right? Catherine is like, I hate this woman. But I need this woman. I need this woman, but I hate her. So the ten children, we'll have to rattle through them because we haven't got all day. So the ten children, the sons, so seven survive. The sons are Francois, Charles, Henri, Hercule. Who becomes Francois as well. Yeah.

And then the daughters are Elizabeth, Claude and Margaret. Yeah. So who marries Henri of Navarre, which will become important in the future. And Elizabeth will marry Philip the second of Spain, also important in the future. So she's done her dynastic duty, Chappie. Ten kids, seven survive. But in 1547, King Francois I died, so the kind of the king who had sort of taken under his wing and taught her to ride. Another person on her side that died. Yeah, that's it. So, but she is elevated. Her husband is now the King of France,

so she is the Queen of France. Yeah, but Diane is the Queen. Ah, come on! I know, I know. It's quite annoying, isn't it? Yeah, okay. Is this where we find Catherine de' Medici, Queen Consort of France? Is this where she learns the game of politics? If I'm honest with you, I think she's really much on the back seat, right?

She's never shining during his reign. Towards the end, yes, she's going to play a very important role. 1558. You know, we talk about the loss of Calais. But for the French, it's great. It's a great moment. Woohoo! Obviously for the English, not so much.

But the reason why we got it back, when I say we, obviously the French guys. It's because Catherine gave a speech in the Parlement de Paris and raised money and men for her husbands. And he's going to win that battle and win back Calais because of Catherine. At that time, she becomes closer to Henry because Henry's like, oh my God, you're very intelligent. And Diane starts resenting Catherine because Catherine is starting to shine. And also Henry's growing up a bit and he's probably stopped sitting on a lap bar. And Diane's also getting older and famously Diane died in a very interesting way, which

has been proven by toxicology. She drank gold. She believed it was the eternal youth serum and so she literally guzzled gold and they found it in her bones. Yeah, but she's going to die way later. What a dumb ass. Is that alright to say? I mean, you know, I'm all for women, but come on. Yeah, that's always not, I don't like to earn. Anyway, so Catherine has reclaimed Calais from the English, which is a great termiliation for the English in 1558.

Henri marries off his son, Dauphin Francoise, to the Duke of Guise's niece, and her name is famous to history. She's's Mary Queen of Scots. Her daughter-in-law is Mary Queen of Scots, Catherine. Oh that's adorable. But we'll do Mary another day, different episode. That blows my mind that Catherine and Mary Queen of Scots hung out. Well they didn't like each other that much, there was a tension, there was a push pull. Mary loved Diane and Diane was a Guise, a French family, very close. She loved Diane and I think at some time she was respectful to Catherine. Even with her son's new wife, Catherine was kind of pushed out. Yes, you can put it that way. Catherine is now learning about oratory, she's learning about politics, she's also learning about another O, the occult.

Shappi, have you ever heard of Nostradamus? Yes. Nostradamus was one of her advisors. No! My knowledge of history is so Swiss cheese that I would have thought Nostradamus was like a few centuries before. Yeah, he does feel very medieval. To be fair, I would have thought the same if I didn't know. Yeah, but he's banging around in the French court for some reason.

Imagine that, wandering around, oi, Nostro! He's going to have a cup of tea. I wonder what she called him for short? Nostre? Damus? Damus? Damus? Nobby. Nobby. In 1555, Nobby Nostradamus prophesizes to his queen, he says, the young lion will overcome the old. In a field of combat, in a single fight, he will pierce his eyes in a golden cage, two wounds in one, he then dies a cruel death. Now what do you think that sounds like, Shappie? I think it might, does it involve horses again? It does. It's a jousting injury. And that literally happens. Now, I'm not saying that's

for Dharmas is true. He might have just, you know, cold reading, whatever. But supposedly, Catherine also dreamed of it. So supposedly she has a nightmare vision that her husband's going to die in a joust. And she begs him not to go in the joust. He goes in the joust against Montgomery, who injures the king in the first joust and she begs him not to go in the joust. He goes in the joust against Montgomery, who injures the king in the first joust. Yeah and then he wants a revenge so he does it again and this time it goes through his eye. Yeah, the lance goes through his visor, through his face, through his eye, splinters into the brain and he died in 10 days. Henri, her husband, is dead which means Diane de Poitiers out. Yes, that's the revenge. Diane is out and she sends a letter to Catherine to apologize

for all the years of humiliations. Yes. That happened to me once. Oh, yeah. This Queen, right? No, I didn't know, but I once had a letter of apology from someone who was really horrific to me once they'd been lost their power. Really? Isn't that fascinating? It is fascinating. Obviously Catherine said give me back Chenonceau. Yeah. You know the H and D everywhere? She changed it D to C and H and C. The beautiful castle. Yeah. And she took it back. I'm so glad she took it back. Tell me the name of the castle again. Chenonceau. Chenonceau. C-H-E. Don't judge my writing in French.

So Henri is dead, the king is dead, long live the king. Her son is now king. And Mary Stuart is Queen of France. Right. So Mary Queen of Scots is now Queen of France. Francois is King of France, but he's only 15. Chappie, you've got a teenage boy. I've got a teenage boy who was very into politics. Okay, how would he do at ruling the country? I think at 15 he would build really interesting town centres.

So what level of power does the king have compared to the mother, Catherine de' Medici, who's now really running the show? Well, at that time, no, she's not yet very much running the show. And that's probably because of Mary Stuart's family, the Geezes. So she has very powerful, very powerful uncles, the Geezes. So the Geeze, G-U-I-S-E-S. Yes, the Geezes. But Catherine is going to try, she's going to fight to remain an advisor to her son,

and he's going to fight to remain an advisor to her son and he's going to accept this. But their relationship between her firstborn and herself, they're good, they're not very strong. He also really loved, I think he's the only husband that, you know, I can say that about Mary, he really loved Mary. And so his allegiance is going to go towards his wife and her family. So Catherine here is not really gaining much power, but she's growing in terms of like, she asked to be called Queen Mother of France. And that

is a title that has never been given before. And it's a very important title, because in the title you have Queen. I want to tell you that before Francis I had his mother, she was Mother of the King. And you see the difference between Mother of the King and Queen Mother. And that's an importance, a title she gives herself, and that's going to have more and more importance in the years to come. There's also another family who are jockeying at court. So we've got the Guises family, so that's Mary's uncles, they are pretty scary blokes. There's also the Bourbons, who make delicious biscuits. Are you fondly? Bourbon, who make delicious biscuits. They're led by Antoine, King of Nevaar, which is Spain,

or sort of near Spain, Nevaar? Nevaar is a small territory between Spain and France, and has had such a huge diplomatic importance for centuries. So Antoine and his brother Louis Condé, so you've got the Bourbon family, you've got the Guises family. They are on opposite sides politically and religion wise. And they're royal blood. Both of them have like princes of blood in them. It's very important because when you're a prince of blood, it means you have a right to the throne. The Guises effectively kidnapped Francois. They sort of sweep into the palace and they sort of stick him in a cupboard and kind of rule for him. Yeah, I mean, again, that's again from a source that is like their detractors.

But there's a bit of truth in that in terms of like they control them. Yeah, okay. So the Geezes and Catherine are sharing power at court. Catherine doesn't have that much power, but the Geezes renege on their loans. They cut the pensions. They don't pay the soldiers. They are not good at running the country. People don't like them, right? They send troops off to Scotland because of Mary, Queen of Scots. So the French are starting to go, hang on a minute. But they also, of course, they're cracking down on the Protestants because the Bourbons are the Protestants and the Guises

are Catholics. Then we have more bad news. Francois II suddenly becomes very unwelcome. And Catherine, having seen her, or seen many people in her life die, knows what's about to happen. Her big boy. Yeah. And she has to pull the emergency sort of parachute button and prepare the next one. She's sort of saying goodbye to one king and trying to prep the next one. And he's only nine. He's nine years old. Wow. Yeah. But they're quite sensible at that age. Well, okay, so your 15 year old, your teenage boy would plan town centres. What would your nine, what would a nine year old do? Ask his mummy. Exactly. You sound like Catherine. I sound like a mother. Which son is this then? It's Charles. It's going to be Charles the Ninth of France.

He's totally, utterly under the control of his mother and Catherine, she's become the matriarch of the family. We do now have the French wars of religion. And these are incredibly serious. And we are a comedy show, so we can't be too flippant here, but they kill over two million people. Yeah, over 30. Yeah, over three decades, sure, but millions of people die in these wars of religion between Catholic factions and Huguenots.

And Catherine's sort of reign, I mean, she doesn't reign, but she's ruling. She's ruling at that time. She rules. Yeah, she's in charge. We have to now put this into the context at the time, right? So we have this horrible series of wars that last for 30 years, but they don't initially last for 30 years, they last for one year initially. And then there's a peace treaty. And then they start again. They always start again. There's always a mean where... That's one thing about Catherine, like her dark legend, and even you see it in The Serpent Queen by stars, is like she's the one instigating those wars.

And she's not. There's no monarch, and mark my word here, it's not good for them to live in a realm where there's constant turmoil. Yeah, it's expensive, it's terrifying, you can't trust who's on your team, you don't want wars ever. But we have a horrible massacre in 1562 at Vassi where the Huguenots worshipers- It's the Guzis who are going to kill the Huguenots for worshipping. Vassi is in their territory in Lorraine and on their way back to Joinville they're gonna see that the Huguenots

are worshipping not outside of the town but inside the town and it's against the law and they decide to kill all of them. It's horrific in France, it's devastating but also foreign powers get involved. So Philip the king of Spain sends 13 000 soldiers to the Catholic side, Elizabeth of England sends 6 000 men to defend the Huguenot and Prince Condé. The Duke of Guise is then assassinated on Orléans in 1563. There's a peace treaty, the Edict of Ombroise, and then that treaty does not last at all and this war continues until 1598. From 1562 to 1598.

So let's just sort of park that there and say, this is the political context in the middle of Catherine's rule, these horrifying wars between... And her sons, yeah. And her sons, yeah. They don't have peace. Yeah. Yeah. So it's expensive, it's devastating, it's horrific.

But let's do something funny because it's a comedy show. Very sad now. I've got to write in my notebook, sad now. Okay, let's try and perk you up. Chappie, what do you think Queen Catherine's flying squadron was? Was it winged monkeys? Okay, so they definitely didn't have planes. Nope. Okay. Did they have pigeons?

They did have pigeons. So you're thinking what, carrier pigeon? Carrier pigeons or maybe hawks? It's a good idea. Is it a maybe hawks? It's a good idea. Is it a bird of prey? They're preying on people, but they're not birds of prey. Oh. Well, maybe the geese are calling them birds. Oh, they're women?

They're women. It's a sort of spy network of hot ladies? Yes. Again, I would just like to say that it's been also, it's a myth around Catherine. What they have flying squadron. So they're called the flying squadron and there were noble women, between 18 and 300 noble women, well-born girls, who were there to basically flirt men to manipulate them for Catherine's interest. But let me just

say like historians have debunked that myth because it's important to say it because if Catherine had been that successful with so many women being able to flirt and obviously have sex with noblemen to get what she wanted, do you think she would have had such a hard time for the next 30 years? Probably not. That's one thing. But it is true that is Isabelle de Limoye, became Comte de Bourbon. He's a Huguenot. He's a Huguenot. He's a Protestant. And it is true that there was like some inference from Catherine where she wanted to know what he had in mind, what he had planned. So she did seduce him to get information for Catherine and it worked. But I think from

that real example, they just made it up that Catherine was just basically paying women to sleep with men to get information. So that was our fun detour. Now back to the wars of religion. Sorry. Sorry, Shappi. I mean, the horrifying event, the key event is called St Bartholomew's Day Massacre, since 1572. Catherine is often blamed for this. Absolutely. So, this massacre is that she wants to bring peace to France and she's going to give her daughter, her third daughter, Margaret, to Henry of Navarre, who's a Protestant. And the wedding is going to happen in Paris and they're going to invite all the Protestants.

So all Protestants and Catholics are in Paris to celebrate the wedding. And so far so good. But the night of 23rd, 24th of August. 1572. 1572, thank you, Greg. The Guises have an opportunity to avenge their father's death in 1563. Because he'd been assassinated. He father's death in 1563. Because he'd been assassinated. He was assassinated in 1563 by Admiral de Coligny.

He's going to ask for refuge to Catherine de Medici, who's going to grant it. But then what happened next is that the Guises have lots and lots of support. They even have their own private armies and they start killing. It's the massacre of Protestants, thousands and thousands. And it doesn't stop in Paris. It goes to Rouen. It goes to different cities. And Catherine is blamed for it. People said Catherine started it. Catherine is the one who organized it, who plotted it. When Catherine is the one who actually opened the doors of her house with Charles, her son, to save as many Protestants as possible, including Sir Francis Worsingham, the English ambassador of Elizabeth I.

There's no one in the 16th century who's a nice person in power. Like you have to be cruel. You have to be ruthless. To survive. Yeah, that's how power works in the 16th century. I mean, people have often commented she's very Cersei Lannister. That's the very Game of the 16th century. I mean, people have often commented she's very Cersei Lannister. That's the very Game of Thrones. I disagree with this. I know you do. And I think this is the thing. Catherine is often seen through the lens of other people from history.

And it's an interesting legacy. 1574, King Charles dies. Her son dies again. She's now on to her third son. Another Henri. Oh, as a spare. The spare for the spare. The spare for the spare. So, Francis and Charles are both dead and now we're on another Henri. Oh, as a spare. The spare for the spare. The spare for the spare. So, Francis and Charles are both dead and now we're on to Henri. And she has another one, so she's like, it's okay.

And he's so cute, isn't he? Yeah. And so you've got Henri, he's having his go as king. Luckily, he's already had some useful work experience. Chappie, do you know why? Because he was in charge of the Castle kitchens. Like a sort of Brooklyn Beckham type guy, you see? No, weirdly he was King of Poland for a bit. Oh, well we all do. He was just as King of Poland. I've been King of Poland. It's like the Duke of Edinburgh award. So Estelle, can you tell us about Henri, the new king of France? And we're the third of France. He was elected king of Poland. And when Charles died, he had to smuggle out of Poland to go back to the French crown, which was awful because...

Can you imagine being ditched by your king? No, exactly. No, but it was a massive diplomatic problem here, because he was like, Catherine was like, come back here. And he's like, they're not gonna be happy. I'd just be a king for a year. Like when you've applied for a new job and you're told you're... And now you have a better opportunity that you were not supposed to have. Right? It's like, for instance, better, right?

Like, sorry guys, but that's how they felt at that time. So he had to hide, he went down a window and he wrote at night and it just... such a fascinating story. First of all, he was absolutely gorgeous. I think that helps. I mean, people are like, oh yeah, you don't know what your kid is, do you? A Polish friend of mine told me that he's gorgeous. Yeah, he's a good looking fella. They still talk about it. So gorgeous. He's dashing, he's absolutely dashing, even Elizabeth I. He's dashing off! Sorry chaps, love being King of Poland, gotta go! What's very interesting is that there were rumors that he was a homosexual, he slept with his mignon, his favorite, with his man. There is no evidence whatsoever of this. If at all it's the contrary and I'm gonna tell you two reasons why there are these rumors about him and why

they're not true. The first one is he had lots of mistresses but because he loved it's the only love story we're gonna have here. He loved his wife. It was a love match. He chose Louise de Lorraine-Vaudemont who was a Guise and her legions is gonna go to him, not her family. And then you have obviously, I love that Chappie is taking notes, and then the reason why as well I know for sure that he didn't have any things with his minion is because I've read hundreds if not thousands of his letters and he described his poo in his letters. So if he had had sex with one of his men, he would have said, oh my God, having you inside me last night was

so amazing. He never did. He never did. All he did is, like, I kiss your hands and feet, and it's just a mark of allegiance. People say because he said that to a man, I kiss your hand and feet, it's because he had sex with him. His mother did the same. She wrote to him, I kiss your hand and feet. It was because he had sex with him. His mother did the same. She wrote to him, I kiss your hand and feet. It was actually a mark of legion, a mark of total loyalty. But he describes his poo. He keeps a poo diary. Honestly, what did he say about his poo? It was green and smelly. And he reported that to his, I'm sorry, he reported that to his

advisor. Can you imagine the Privy Councillor receiving the letter, my king had a green poo today and it was very smelly. So, Henri is now ruling. Catherine is still sort of reigning a bit because she's still mother of the king. But she still finds time to meddle in the love life of her fourth remaining son, Hercu, who gets renamed François, Duke of Anenceau. Easier to say. And he's being dangled in front of, in fact, Catherine is doing the dangling,

she's dangling him in front of someone for marriage. Do you know who that would be? I don't, but it really seems to me given the times this was a literal dangling, who could it have been back then? Who's single and ready to mingle on the marriage market? I don't know. Oh no. Red hair? Oh, it's not... I know red hair. Is it... it's not... Joan of Arc, is it? No. No, is it Queen Elizabeth the First? It is, yes.

Oh, yes! Yeah. Yes! So he's a young lad. Lizzie, Lizzie, Lizzie. He's being sort of pushed in front of Queen Elizabeth, who's much older. For 11 years of marriage negotiation, 11 years, Elizabeth said, yes I will, no I won't, yes I will, no I won't, maybe I will, maybe I won't, I will, I won't. 11 years, I mean, you can call the French stupid, you can.

Her nickname for him is Frog. Yes. What? She nicknames him Frog. So she was quite a lot older than Hercule. Yeah, yeah she is. Yeah, she was. Yeah, he'snames him frog. So she was quite a lot older than her Q Yeah, yeah, she's yeah she was yeah He's he's late 20 25 years and they've met each other twice He came to England twice and they party together. I'm gonna tell you a story

She said did he sit on a lap and play the liar? Hope you didn't I don't think I don't think she was a type of woman But they had so much fun that she gave she promised in front of everyone, I will marry you. In front of everyone. 1581. He's so happy. He's like, Oh my God, finally, you know, after 10 years. Can you imagine? But imagine like thinking that someone's going to marry you for 10 years. And they don't. And the next morning she said, Oh yeah, about last night. I didn't mean it. But doesn't this sound to you, Shappi, tell me you're honest and said that she was absolutely hungover. Like, oh my God, what did I say last night?

I was going to say, we've all had mornings like that. Yeah, that kind of... What, you promised to marry someone? I didn't have that, but she did. And I think it's hilarious that the next day, oh my God, what did I say? Oh, no, I didn't mean it. It's not gonna happen. Well, he doesn't marry her, of course, because she remains the Virgin Queen, but Frances Urquell sadly dies aged 29 in 1584 after a bungled military campaign in the Netherlands.

So Catherine is marrying off the daughters as well, which means she's sort of the grandmother of Europe. She is the grandmother of Europe. She's arranging all these marriages. Well, she's the grandmother of the inventors of Spain, because she married her first daughter to Philip II and they had two daughters. And Spain is a superpower at this time, isn't it? France and Spain are superpowers. And then she has people in Lorraine and Tuscany. She is the grandmother of Europe. What about her final years, Catherine? I mean, she's quite old by this point, not like elderly,

but she's lived a life by this point. So what's life like for her in the mid-1580s also? Well, for her it's very hard because in 1585, there's the Eighth Religious Civil War that is triggered obviously by the death of her son, her last son. Also, you have to realize that now, you know, she's counting her kids. Oh my God, they're still Henry. But Henry and herself, so her favorite son, are all going to drift apart because Henry III is going to make a secret alliance with Elizabeth I because he understands now that the Protestants don't want his crown, but the Ghezes and Mary Stuart want much power in Europe.

So he's going to make a secret alliance, and Catherine Catherine is gonna get closer to the Guises, wanting to preserve the Catholic faith ultimately in France. So they drift apart. Catherine ends up hating Elizabeth I and when Elizabeth ordered the execution of Mary Stuart in 1587, Catherine is almost like, who does she think she is? Like, I hate this woman. And so you really have, those two are drifting apart, they're fighting and Henry III is going to commit a very horrible thing.

He's going to order the murder of the Guises and Catherine de Meige is going to know that's the end. I think she really gets very ill at that time. So it's December 1598. She gets very ill and she has nowhere to recover because the country is in... It's it honestly it's hell. France is hell at that point and she dies on the 5th January 1589 And I'm so glad she didn't see her favorite son, the beautiful Henri, murdered He's murdered a few months later. Oh, in August 1589. Yeah, he's assassinated, isn't he? So she dies age 69, France still ripped apart by a religious war, her son is murdered.

And the question I suppose is how does France cope without her stabilizing influence, but she's not managed to stabilize everything, obviously. So what happens to the Valois line, her dynasty? It ends because obviously Henry dies in 1589 as well, It's the end of the Valois and then you have Henri de Navarre with his wife Margaret of Valois who become king and queen of France. That's the end of the Valois dynasty. It's a life and a half, isn't it, Chappie? It is. We've gone through that.

Really quite something. I don't know how any of them can be bothered. Wouldn't you, if you had all that money, just sit somewhere quietly and chill? Yeah, I'd just go to Shiloh So and just make myself a cocktail and just read a book. Do some gardening. Yeah, just play volleyball in the garden. Just breed puppies. Wow. I know.

But the thing is with Catherine is she was so alone in the world. Absolutely. Clearly had massive attachment issues and everyone that was like related to her by blood she lost. So it does feel that the only way she had to even feel alive is to be powerful. That's the only way she would like a lot of very famous people that are bereft of unconditional love. they feel power is the only thing that will sate them.

And as we all know, that always leads to disaster. It does. It does. Well, there we go. That was quite wise of me. That was very wise. I felt like we should just leave it there. Bye.

The Nuance Window! Right, it's time now for The Nuance Window. NUANCE WINDOW! Right, it's time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Chappie and I sit enraptured in our throne room while Estelle holds court for two minutes, tells us something we need to know about Catherine de Medici. My stopwatch is ready, take it away, Dr Estelle. Well I would like people to remember that Catherine is not the Dark Queen. All of this is absolutely untrue. And to show it to you I'm going to discuss two things briefly with you. The first thing is the fact how much she loved her children but also her grandchildren.

She wrote loving letters to her granddaughters, the Spanish granddaughters. She sent them gifts. Monkeys! Part of these gifts. I know, quite unusual. Not unusual for the time if I'm really honest with you. But the thing that I found it very touching about Catherine is the way she treated Henry III's wife Louise de

Loren de Vaudemont who was a geese by blood but a Valois by choice and she gave her at her death Chenonceau. She gave Chenonceau to this queen who was then going to lose obviously her husband and is going to fight until the end to get recognition for her husband because she really believed that you know he did what he did because of what was happening in France at the time where the geese is. She was not perfect and Greg, you were totally right to point it out. To be in power you have to be ruthless. But she was not this horrible woman who poisoned anyone to get power. She was not this woman who created all the wars of religion. When you look at French books it's always Catherine de Medici's fault. And I think it comes because of, honestly, xenophobia against Italians, unfortunately,

that prevailed in the 17th and the 18th century, gravely. So it is quite important to remember Catherine as someone who truly loved her children, her grandchildren, and who tried to do her best for France and her family. Thank you very much. Beautifully said. That was really beautiful. I have so enjoyed, Estelle, your passion for her. Thank you. It's been lovely and you've made me like her too. I'm so happy. One extraordinary

life and as we say, you know, her childhood was so sad. Just to come back from that alone is impressive. So what do you know now? This is our quickfire quiz for Chappie to see how much she has learned. We've done an awful lot of Henri's and Francoise's and all sorts of names. Are you feeling confident? I mean, you've been taking great notes. I remember Hercule. I don't think he's in the quiz, but maybe we'll get lucky. But we've got ten questions, here we go. Question one.

Which family member acted as Catherine's guardian for much of her childhood from his fancy palace? It was Pope Clement. It was Clement VII. Well done. Question two. How did the French court unconventionally celebrate Catherine's marriage to Prince Henri in 1533 when they went to bed? They dipped some boobs in wine and drank it.

They did, it was an orgy. An orgy. A classic, absolutely. The dipping of the nipping, yes. Question three, why was Catherine a suspect in the death of her husband's older brother in 1538? Because his death meant that she would be queen. That's right and he suddenly keeled over playing tennis, it was all very suspicious. Question four, who was Diane de Poitiers? Diane de Poitiers was Henri, who was Catherine's husband's mistress. Very good. Well done. Are you seeing this? Not to be confused with

Sidney Poitiers. No. Question five. Can you name three of Catherine's ten children? Yes. Margaret, Hercule and Henri. Very good. Question six. What allegedly was Catherine's flying squadron? Not monkeys. Her flying squadron was allegedly beautiful women sent out to hoodwink men into giving them info. Very good. Question seven. How did her husband King Henry II die rather horribly? He died in a jousting incident. Question eight. What was the name of the devastating conflict that lasted from 1562 to 1598 in France? St Bartholomew's Day? Oh yeah, I'll let you have that. That's well done.

It's called the Wars of Religion and the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre. Well done, well remembered. Okay, and question nine. Which powerful Catholic family did Catherine have to contend with during her time as regent and Queen Mother? The Geezers. Yeah, the Geezers. I've been waiting to say the Geezers.

And you did it beautifully. And this for a perfect 10 out of 10, Chaffee Corstandi. Wow. Question 10, which title did Catherine give herself that had never been used before in France? It was the mother of France, the mother of the country? Yeah, Queen, yeah, the Queen mother of the country. Mother of the country.

I'm giving you 10. I love Mother of France. Yeah, giving you 10. 10 out of 10, Chaffee. That's the best I've ever done in any exam ever. And you did so well because we had so many random honorees and Francoises just bouncing around. Do you know what? This has been so fascinating. I've really, really enjoyed this and I'm going to buy your book the minute I leave this studio. Well, thank you so much, Estelle. Thank you, Chapp Shappi and listener if you want

to hear more of Shappi you can check out our episodes on Justinian and Theodora, another fascinating royal rags to riches tale. Of course the ancient Olympics episode if you want to get your Olympics nostalgia vibes on. And for more quality queens we have episodes on Emma of Normandy and Eleanor of Aquitaine. And remember if you enjoyed the podcast please leave us a review, share the show with your friends, subscribe to Your Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode. And I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we have the excellent Dr Estelle Paranc from Northeastern University,

London. Thank you, Estelle. Thank you so much for having me. I had so much fun. And in Comedy Corner, we have the sensational Chapparack Cosandi. Thank you, Chappie. Thank you so much. It's been fab. And to you lovely listener, join me next time as we crown another historical subject. But for now I'm off to go and crash a wedding and dip my nips in everyone's glasses. Bye! This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by Hannah Cusworth. It was written by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Nagoose and me.

The audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Ben Hollands. It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Nagoose and our executive editor was James Cook. Your Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4. Hello this is Marian Keyes and this is Tara Flynn. We host a podcast you might like for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds called Now You're Asking. Each week we take real listeners' questions about life, love, lingerie, cats, dogs, dentists, pockets, or the lack of anything really and apply our worldly wisdom in a way which we hope will help but also hopefully entertain. Join us for don't you. Search up Now You're Asking on BBC Sounds. Thanking you.