You're Dead to Me - Chevalier de Saint-Georges

Episode Date: March 19, 2021

Greg Jenner is joined by historian Prof Olivette Otele and comedian Sophie Duker in 18th century France to meet the Chevalier de Saint-Georges. Born the son of a slave and a white plantation owner, he lived a remarkable life in France, becoming a master fencer, violin virtuoso, composer, confident of Marie Antoinette and a revolutionary. He is regarded as one of the most significant composers of the 18th century and Mozart is widely regarded to have had major beef with him. So why is his story mostly unknown?Produced by Cornelius Mendez Script by Greg Jenner and Emma Nagouse Research by Lloyd RobertsA production by The Athletic for BBC Radio 4.

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon pull-apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey and just five bucks for the small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. Hello, Greg here. Not Jenna, but James. You can tell us apart because he is a highly qualified

academic who specialises in his subject and I have great hair. Before you get into this podcast, I just want to let you know about my new podcast that I host with Bella Mackey, who is amazing, and also my wife. It's called Teach Me a Lesson and each week we have a teacher on who teaches us their favourite lesson. It's a celebration of learning and remembering to learn when you've left actual education. You can find it on BBC Sounds now, just search for Teach Me A Lesson. Greg Jenner, Public Historian, Author and Broadcaster and I'm the Chief Nerd on the BBC comedy show Horrible Histories. You might have heard my other podcast, Homeschool History, but that one's mostly for the kids.

So what do we do on this podcast? Well, here we're all about the dazzling duets between book-botherers and rib-ticklers. And today we are composing a comedy concerto as we travel back to 18th century France to talk about a musical sensation and a revolutionary rebel. It's the Chevalier de Saint-Georges, also known as Joseph Boulogne. And to help me do that, I'm joined by two very special guests. In History Corner, she's Professor of the History of Slavery and Memory of

Enslavement at the University of Bristol, and she's both a Fellow and Vice President of the Royal Historical Society. She is a regular expert commentator on the TV and on the radio and in the newspapers, and you may have read her fabulous new book, African Europeans. It's Professor Olivette Otelay. Hello, Olivette. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. I'm delighted to be here. Very, very fun to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, she's a sensational stand-up comic and writer

who you will have seen on all the TV shows, including Roast Battle, Frankie Boyle's New World Order, 8 Out of 10 Cats, Mock the Week. She was nominated for Best Newcomer at the Edinburgh Fringe in 2019 and of course you will have heard her on the You're Dead to Me episode about the Asante Empire. It's the wonderful Sophie Duker. Hi Sophie, how are you? Bonjour, comment allez-vous? C'est un grand plaisir d'être ici. Oh hello, look at you with your French. Look at me, or rather, listen to me, because it's a podcast. French is all I have in this podcast, because I know nothing about the character in question.

Last time out you went to Ghana. This time you've learned the whole language. I mean, that's amazing dedication. From scratch. It took me about 14 to 16 days to get fluent, but I've learned French and it's not that hard. I don't know what people are on about. Okay, the reason you can speak French is you studied English and modern languages at university, is that right? I did study English and modern languages. I say English and modern languages, but it was only one modern language and that language was French. But English and modern languages sounds like I have more range.

Well, today we will be speaking much French and a little bit of English as we're getting to know someone who was extraordinarily fascinating in the 18th century and hopefully coming back into vogue as well. So, what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you at home might know about today's subject. And I'm going to guess you have probably never heard of Joseph Boulogne, but you might have heard of the Chevalier de Saint-Georges, simply because it's a very cool name. If you don't know about him, it's probably because Napoleon, it's always Napoleon's fault. But you may know a little bit about classical music in the 18th century, your

Mozart's and your whatnot. You may know a little bit about duelling in French history from the Three Musketeers or from Dogtanion, the classic text that we all know. You may know a little bit about Marie Antoinette and what happened to her. But what is there to know about the Chevalier? What is there to know about music? What is there to know about France in the 18th century? Let's find out. Professor Olivette, we have a hint already from my introduction about this extraordinary life. Let's start at the beginning of Joseph's life. Where was he born? Who were his parents? What's his situation as a child? Joseph Boulogne was born to an aristocratic colonist and plantation owner, Georges Boulogne,

and an enslaved Senegalese woman named Nano in Guadeloupe in 1745. George also had a daughter. And like most French aristocrats with illegitimate dual heritage children, Joseph's father gave his son his name. I mean, that's really unusual, isn't it? His mother was enslaved and his father is a noble, so he inherits his father's name. That feels quite surprising to me. It's very unusual. Most children spend their lives in the Caribbean. Quite unusual as well is the mother traveling with a child to mainland France. So this is for the education of the young children. So this is Joseph going to France to go to school, is that right? Yes. In fact, his father traveled to Bordeaux in 1748 and on to Paris and he brought Joseph and the mother and it wasn't particularly her choice because we believe that at the time she didn't have a say on the matter. A black child could not

really inherit a white father's land under the Code Noir. The Code Noir or Black Code was a code that regulated the relationship between black people and white people. It prevented, for example, white people from marrying black people and the children born out of these unions were not free automatically. So France was the best place for him and the father knew that. So we have an aristocratic dad. Sophie, does this surprise you already? Yeah, I find this pretty wild, pretty astonishing. I mean, like, it's a fun family trip in a way. Do we know if Joseph's dad had any other children? Do you think there was a sense of legacy in why he brought the child over to France? Or was it merely because he wanted to give him good opportunities in life?

We know that he had a daughter, but we don't know if the daughter travelled with him. It's likely that she did. What is unusual is the fact that it's not just bringing him to France. It's also giving him the education of a gentleman. It was incredibly rare. Yeah, he's given a very good education. And he is given opportunities that would be denied to most French people, let alone a child who is born to an enslaved mother. Does this mean that it's a very expensive education? Is it that his dad is very loaded?

Well, we believe that as a plantation owner, he was very, very wealthy. And he thought that Joseph needed a formal education. So he placed him under Master Fencer Nicolas Tixier de la Boussière at the age of 13, quite young already, who also was in charge of Joseph's literary education. And he absolutely excelled in sport. And I love the idea of, i've got a 13 year old child i'll entrust him to a fencer that's what you do did you do any fencing as a child sophie no fencing

happened in ghana weirdly although i did when i was little there are there i decided that i really wanted to ride horses because there's a series of books about a girl called sophie that likes to ride horses so i was like it's nominative determinism i gotta get on a horse so i feel like I could have done okay at jousting, though I don't know if that was happening at the time or in the place in France. That technically would make you a chevalier. A chevalier is someone who rides horses, it's a knight. Olivette, he's entrusted to a fencer at 13, who's also teaching him to read and write and poetry and books and learning. But why fencing? What advantage does fencing give a young 13 year old? As a nobleman, it was supposed to be one of the art, a craft, something that presents the nobility as engaged, as sports, but also classy. I mean,

there's something really appealing about fencing. I kind of feel like it might be like a defence against bullies kind of thing like you're going to a new school you're gonna have to make friends why don't you just take up fencing all the cool boys are doing it like the skinny awkward kid starts doing jujitsu and everyone's like whoa like watch out watch out for Joseph. I should have done jujitsu I never learned any of these skills. So we have here a very talented young boy. He's 13. But, Oliver, we get the sense that he's not just a posh kid who has been given a decent education. He's incredibly talented.

He's also very strong. You can learn all the fencing you want, but he could fight. Sources say that by 15, he was beating the strongest fighters. At 17, he acquired the greatest speed. He also fought without feint or tricks and never injured anyone, even in those times when masks were not yet in use. At 15, he's already beaten grown men and he never hurts anyone.

He's nice. He's a nice young man. He's not fighting the school bullies, Sophie. He's showing them how to be a gentleman. He sounds dreamy. He sounds like the closest thing 18th century Paris gets to a jock. I mean, you're right, Sophie, he is sort of a jock. He's the posh kid at school in some ways, but he's also not the posh kid because he is the son of an enslaved woman.

So he has the privilege, and yet at the same time, he's got darker skin than all the other people in his school. Does that affect him at all as a teenager? Yes and no. He was very charismatic, and that played a huge role in his acceptance among the exclusive circles of French elite. So there are a few perks there. He was also very handsome. We had an image of him incredibly attractive, vibrant private life. His tutor, Bossier, says he loved and was

loved, often succumbing to the charm of meaningful relationships. That says it all. That's a very powerful Twitter bio. Succumbing to the charm of meaningful relationships. I mean, I now have a better answer to the question, what you're in time with your time travel to. So he's hot, he's charismatic, he's talented, he's extremely strong. We also know he's extremely dexterous. Reports say that he moves with incredible elegance and speed. He doesn't hurt anyone in duels, which is very difficult to do,

because, of course, you might accidentally stab someone in a duel. I mean, they're using swords. So he's really talented as an athlete, and he's a charmer. I mean, I'm getting Duke of Hastings vibes from Bridgerton. Posh, gorgeous, brooding fella. We've also been promised classical music here, Olivette. So where are my concertos? Let's go back to his early years. So his musical instructions and talents are very less documented for his early years, probably because of his

fencing celebrity. It is likely that his father secured the old favourite of Louis XV, Jean-Marie Leclerc. And Jean-Marie Leclerc was very famous at the time, and he was to instruct him in music, and he did just that. Joseph's main instrument was the violin, quite appropriate. So 1761, just to give you some context, Joseph was made a member of the Gendarme de la Garde, which is the royal guard, very prestigious, and spent his spare time composing. So we've got a violinist who's also a soldier, who's also the best dualist in France, who's also gorgeous. Oh my God, I can't deal with it.

It's a gorgeous shot with a sensitive side. Okay. Do we know exactly what year he's born, Olivette? There's a little bit of discussion here amongst historians. I mean, I've seen 1739, I've seen 1745. amongst historians. I mean, I've seen 1739, I've seen 1745. Yes, we do now because the French Royal Academy of Music more recently decided or said that they come across documents. So it's very likely it's 1745. So he's very young when he joins the Royal Guards.

Around 17. To go from school to being a soldier to being a musician is the route that James Blunt took. And we all know how great James Blunt is. I suppose the musical career is what I want to focus on next. That's what makes him so interesting in terms of his cultural legacy. He's taught violin by Jean-Marie Leclerc. He's taught composition and orchestral music by a man called Gossek. Yes, it's François-Joseph Gossek who invited Joseph

to join his prestigious Concert des Amateurs, a musician drawn from across France. Joseph is a virtuoso, first violin. He moves from amateur to more professional and he became the orchestra's leader in 1773. He's first violinist, which of course is incredibly difficult to achieve. The Concert des Amateurs sounds like a school orchestra. When you hear the word amateur, you're thinking, uh-oh, but this is one of the most prestigious orchestras in Europe? Yes, it is. This is a man who has been working incredibly hard. So it's not luck. It's not just connection. It's hard work.

Daddy doesn't get you first chair in the primarial. I mean, Daddy can get you maybe into the orchestra, but he doesn't get you first chair in the sort of the primarial I mean daddy can get you maybe into the orchestra but he doesn't get you first chair. Sophie to demonstrate how talented the Chevalier was as a musician we're going to play you a little clip this is a musician playing one of his most difficult things something he composed himself so hopefully this will blow I mean, I got a distinction in my grade three piano exam and I thought that was impressive, but I really feel like that blows me out of the water. So he composed that. Yeah. So he's barely 20. He's already that good. The first question to ask is, at what point does he switch from being a soldier to being a full-time musician, Olivette? Is it when he becomes the leader of the orchestra?

Yes, that's the moment where you have a wider recognition and there's also pleasure. He thrives in elite circles, in environments where you have many people around him. As a soldier, you have a limited audience, I think. He was a performer, so he had a bigger audience, really. He got soul, but he's not a soldier. He's got soul and he is a soldier. He's got it all. So, Sophie, the Chevalier switched careers.

You're obviously a master comedian, but what would you switch it up for if you had to try something else? I think that comedy can seem quite airy-fairy. It's not that solid, so I think I'd like to retrain as, I don't know what the name, I want to say woodsman, but that's not what it so i think i'd like to retrain as um i don't know what the name i want to say woodsman but that's not what it is woods not a woods woman but a carpenter someone who works with wood i know that that can sound quite suggestive but someone who works with wood woodsman sounds like a euphemism i bet that was something that joseph could do too i bet that was

just another string to his bow he's obviously good with his hands yeah when you said he was dexterous i was like please it's too early in the morning for this kind of chat. At what point did they start calling him the Chevalier de Saint-Georges? The nickname Chevalier was given to him precisely as a recognition for his extraordinary skills as a horseman and as a master fencer. Also because he was graceful and gentleman and powerful. So all this in one. So Chevalier meaning knight seemed really appropriate at that point. He's hanging out in all the parties. By the mid 1770s, he's the personal music instructor to Marie Antoinette, the Queen of France. He's gone far already, not even mid-twenties yet. And it's at this point he also starts

composing. He's working primarily in a new genre really called the symphony concertante. Can you just tell us a little bit about what that is? It's when two soloists competed while being part of a wide orchestra. And by that point, he had decided that, you know, music was to be his principle where he would dedicate most of his time is it basically like cypher like in grime music where like you've got competing musicians and they're like prepping for the big day and they come and they've got like the orchestra behind them and they sort of like fight is it like eight mile but in the 18th century and with violins do you know what sophia i thought exactly. I thought you see two grime artists in a battle

and you see the whole crowd behind, the whole crowd participating. That was exactly the setting. But he is wearing a wig. So it's a powdered wig and a very fancy overcoat. You've said there, Olivette, that he's already one of Europe's leading musicians in one of Europe's leading orchestras.

He started to compose these really exciting, dazzling musical compositions. Sophie, we're going to play you one of his pieces called A Symphony Concertante in G Major. And this is played by the Buscade Soweto String Ensemble in Johannesburg in 2012. I really wanted to start beatboxing over that. That was incredible. It's a bit more complex than Frere Jacques. I love it.

What I love about this, Oliver, I don't know if you agree, but to me it sounds like a duel. This is a master fencer writing music that could be the theme tune to a fight. It feels like people thrusting and parrying. Exactly the same. And it's fabulous because it's not just there to bring peace. It's to challenge you to pay attention and just engage with the music. I love it. The speed of it as well, the dexterity.

He's a virtuoso writing music for himself and for others. He then moves into a new type of music, which is opera. And his first is called Ernestine. Sophie, given all you know about him, how do you think this opera goes? I think it's a smash hit. I think it's a slam dunk. Olivette? Uh-oh. It doesn't quite go according to plans. But once again, let's remember that this is somebody who's

almost striving on taking risks. So he's just going to go for it. He went too hard too soon. The truth is, is that the opera closes after one night. Just people really didn't love it. Apparently his music was very good, but the libretto, the words and the story were not good. Even though they were written by the guy who wrote Les Liaisons Dangereuses, or Cruel Intentions, if you're a millennial. But that's okay, because he tried again.

How do you think his second opera went? Difficult second album, but the first one has flopped. I think it maybe ran longer than one night. It went four nights. Four nights is better than one, but not great, is it? But that's okay, because he wrote a third opera. Why does he keep doing this? Oh my god. How do he wrote a third opera. Why does he keep doing this? Oh my God.

How do you think his third opera went? I just think he's a casualty of the fact that he's had pretty girls laughing at his jokes, telling him he's really good at competitive fiddling. I feel like he hasn't really accustomed to this reality check. I think third opera, maybe like a week. I'm afraid it closes after one night. Oh my God! He's a generational talent, but opera is maybe like a week. I'm afraid it closes after one night. Oh my God! He's a generational talent, but opera is not his métier.

He does keep plugging away. He writes five more in the next 10 years. Olivette, is it fair to say his symphony concertants were beloved and they were respected, but his operas just don't really work? No, it didn't work. But he is still famous and he's also still very rich. So where does his money come from? Is he a trust fund kid? Let's remember that when he's doing these things, he is still famous and he's also still very rich. So where does his money come from? Is he a trust fund kid?

Let's remember that when he's doing these things, he's being paid. He's enjoying a rising profile and that is continuously supplying him with opportunities and positions in Paris. There are private concerts that he might have been involved in. And he was also probably helped by the 8,000 livres left by his father. He's got an inheritance and he's got a job and he's teaching the Queen of France. And presumably that's quite a cushy gig. We then get to an interesting moment in musical history.

1778 in Paris, there is a big name musician coming to town. Sophie, do you want to guess who it might be? Oh, no. I don't know any musicians, as might already be apparent, because I only did get to grade three. Could you give me the first letter of their name? In terms of first name, W-A- What?

His initials are W-A-M. Oh, Wolfgang. I was going to say him, but I thought it was too obvious. I was going to do what with Mozart's name in it. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. Womp, wompo a wet ass melody a wet ass melody uh that's right Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart is coming to Paris and his dad Leopold has said to him you need to go and check out Joseph Boulogne the Chevalier de Saint-Georges he is the bee's knees you need to go and check out Joseph Boulogne, the Chevalier de Saint-Georges. He is the bee's knees. You need to go and see him. So, Olivette, does he?

No, he doesn't, which is incredible because his father had a strong hold on him. Joseph was the best composer and musician of the kingdom by this point. But Mozart absolutely refused to attend any of Joseph's concerts or even to meet him in person. At the same time, Mozart was visiting Paris with his mother, who subsequently became very ill and died there during the visit. So it was a very bad time for Mozart. But that's no excuse, really. Exactly. Let's not let him off the hook. I know historians have debated this. Do we think, A, is it petty rivalry? B, is there a race element going on? It's very hard to tell. I believe that it was pure jealousy, really unnecessary jealousy,

because both incredibly talented, both hardworking. It's just they're fighting for space in Europe. Europe's too small for both of them. So it's the Cristiano and the Lionel Messi problem. There are accusations also that Mozart stole a passage of music from the Chevalier. He slightly changed the arrangement, but it apparently sounds very similar. And we should say Mozart is a genuine genius. I'm not saying that he's nicked everything, but there's clearly a little bit of a tension there. Sophie, have you ever seen or heard Mozart's The Magic Flute?

I'm pretty sure I've heard The Magic Flute. Do you want me to sing it for you? Yes, please. I cannot do that. I'm contractually bound've heard the Magic Flute. Do you want me to sing it for you? Yes, please. I cannot do that. I'm contractually bound to never do that again. There is a character in the Magic Flute who is a villain called Monostatos, who is a black man. And historians have theorized that that's a way of getting back at the Chevalier.

Now, we don't know, but there are accusations here of pettiness. It sounds very shady. It's like the Magic Flute is basically a diss track. Monostatos is a crude, ugly, villainous, evil piece of work. I mean, to the point that some modern operas are like, we shouldn't do this play because it's a bit racist. Oh my God. This is like how, I don't think we should listen to Cry Me a River anymore

because in the video for that, Justin put that girl that looks exactly like britney and everyone knew it was britney chevalier saint george is britney in this in this analogy let's get on the britney hashtag all right free britney free saint george exactly but i mean the other thing is that the chevalier has been nicknamed the black mozart we're talking about two people who are on a par, possibly. Mozart has become more famous in history, but at the point here where he's 22, they are of equal billing, really. And just a reminder, Sophie, of how talented the Chevalier is. During a visit to Paris, John Adams, who will later be the second president of the United States, describes him as the most talented man in Europe in horse riding, shooting, fencing, dancing and music.

A quintuple threat. Oh my God, Jon Adams has got a little crush. The most talented man in Europe. Can poach eggs perfectly. Can ride a bike without putting his hands on the handlebars, which I think is quite accessible for most people, but I can't do. Yeah, I mean, it feels like he's going to be the EGOT of the 18th century the Emmy the Oscars the Tonys uh and the what's the what's the Grammy Grammy yes okay yeah Joseph's you know extraordinarily talented in all these things

but the race does work against him in the end Olivette when he's up for one of the most prestigious jobs at the Pahy Opera there's's a campaign against him. Yes, it's a nasty campaign. He's obviously the obvious choice. But you see, you have a handful of the opera's leading women petitioning the Queen. The objective to having, and I'm quoting, Mulatto heading the opera. So he was crushed and it was a strong setback. That gives you a flavour of what life was like for 18th century dual heritage or black people. Up to this point in the story, we've seen that his privilege, his wealth, his charm, his talent has opened doors for him. But this is a moment where his race closes doors. And what is interesting is that these women petitioning were not particularly at the top

of the social ladder. They were not elite women, and yet they were powerful enough in the music world to get rid of them. He has now had a racist campaign against him, which has stifled his career a bit. I also get the sense that maybe some of the men at court are starting to get a little bit annoyed with him because he is quite well known for seducing wives. He's a bit of a player. He doesn't ever get married though, Olivette. Do we take it that he's a constant just moving on to the next girl? Or again, is it that someone of mixed race heritage is not marriage material? It's very hard to say. I think he's enjoying the perks of being single. But there's also this thing is that if he's going to get married in the 18th century, if we look at 18th century rules, he needs to be somebody incredibly powerful and wealthy and ready to take him as a husband, which means that the family of the future wife needs to give their consent as well.

So it wasn't that obvious and that easy, really, to get married as a dual heritage man. Even though he is a noble, he is potentially not someone who is welcome in everyone's family circles. Exactly, yes. But there is a woman who does further his career in an interesting way, and she's called Madame de Montestant. Who is she? She was an incredible playwright, somebody with great influence, who placed him in charge of a concert at a favourite theatre of hers, so a powerful woman in the theater world. And she introduced him to her husband, the Duke of Orléans, and the two of them became inseparable friends. And it's very important because the Duke of Orléans, as you know, had close ties with a king. So as the result of the

connection, he becomes a Freemason, possibly the first black Freemason in France. The RLER had turned their gardens the Palais Royal into a space where a variety of arts were performed so Joseph performed at the Palais Royal enjoyed regular work which was really important. So he's doing secret handshakes Sophie he's a member of the Freemasons. Good on him he's got to be a part of a cool club. I still don't know I mean most of my knowledge about the Freemasons. Good on him. He's got to be a part of a cool club. I still don't know. I mean, most of my knowledge about the Freemasons comes from The Simpsons. In terms of like power and influence in the everyday, does that just give him another level up in society?

Yes, absolutely. This is a powerful moment for him in terms of long-term protection. Just a quick question, Olivette. Do we know what happens to his father and his mother when they die? Are they in his life? Do we know anything about that? No, unfortunately, we have no details about that, no archival materials.

So at this point, we sense that he's relying on himself, really, to maybe support the sister, maybe the mother, but definitely himself. He seems to be very lonely. So there's a two side to this character, the very public one, and the fact that he's working incredibly hard. It seems that he needs to do that to protect himself. And so as you pointed out, he has obviously a fantastic patron in the Duke d'Orléans, who is obviously very closely related to the King of France. And then the Duke's son is called Philippe, later to be called Philippe E egalite i love this this is one of my favorite weird stories of the 18th century in france is that you have a duke who's like i'm like all of you guys so i'm philip equality is my name that's a great name isn't it good he's sort of a woke

aristocrat sir philip equality yeah exactly yeah duke philip equality what would your name be so if you're going to rename yourself to fit in with these Enlightenment values? The reason I liked Philippe Egalité so much is because it sounds almost like she's a fantastic Parisian drag queen. And then I thought the common saying, Liberté, Egalité, Beyoncé.

If I was going to rename myself, I already know the answer to this question because I have lived in France. I think I would call myself La Duchesse du Coeur, which means the Duchess of the Heart. Du Coeur means of the heart. So like my name, Du Coeur. That's lovely. That's really good.

Yeah, but then I'd be a bitch to everyone. So I'd undermine it. Okay, so he's got two patrons. He's got the Duke and then he's got the Duke's son, Philippe Galité, but he does make friends with another Joseph, Joseph Haydn, one of the great composers in Europe, who sends him some music.

Haydn sends him the six Paris symphonies in 1786, which are these very famous pieces of music. So he's networking across Europe, Olivette. Absolutely. The Mozart episode is forgotten. He's supported by his fellow musicians across Europe, Olivette? Absolutely. The Mozart episode is forgotten. He's supported by his fellow musicians across Europe, and they genuinely like his work. It's not just because he's famous. They recognise the talents and the difficulty in living as an 18th century musician. So fabulous moments, really.

But then sadness does strike. The Duke Philippe does die, the Duke of Orléans. His name is rather cruel. He's known as Philippe the Fat. That means that his son, Philippe Egalité, becomes the Duke. So that's good. His new best mate is now a prestigious patron. But the death of the first Duke does break Joseph's heart. And he goes to London to take in some new sights. And what does he see in London?

What kind of people is he hanging out with? He's with the elite Londoners, people who want to party, people who want to see him fencing and playing music and directing music. And this is the place where he's supposed to forget many things. But London at the same time at this point is also a place where we're talking about dual heritage families and children. We started to talk about the abolition. A lot is happening actually in London when he arrived there. So it's a cool place to be. We started to talk about the abolition. A lot is happening actually in London when he arrived there. So it's a cool place to be. We know he goes to Parliament. We know he watches

a debate about abolition. We know he meets William Wilberforce, who perhaps known to listeners as kind of one of the leading white abolitionists. He also has a very famous jewel. Sophie, have you ever heard of the Chevalier d'Anne? I don't think I've ever heard of them. Okay, so we have mentioned them before on a podcast we did about LGBTQ history. The Chevalier d'Anne was a really extraordinary figure, lived the first half of their life as a man, as a French spy, diplomat, soldier, and then lived the second half of their life as a woman. And so there is a very famous duel where the two Chevaliers duel and the chevalier d'Eon

is wearing a frock and the chevalier de Saint-Georges is wearing men's clothes. I think we might have an image we can show. That is so cool. Do you want to describe what you can see? So there are two people dueling in a fencing duel, I believe it's called. One is wearing high socks and breeches and a red jacket, arms gallantly splayed. And then the other person appears to be an older woman who's in like a deep lunge, sticking her sword up towards his chin. And there are loads of fancy pants people watching them duel.

That's right. And this is at Carlton House. This was quite a famous duel. They dueled a few times. What I think is quite important to say is that the Chevalier d'Eon was quite elderly by this point, but the Chevalier de Saint-Georges had done his Achilles heel. He basically destroyed his tendons in his legs. So he'd lost some of his speed. So they were quite evenly matched. They were two very famous duelists and they both had a slight disadvantage. So in the end,

the Chevalier d'Eon triumphs. But there's also, historians have been quite kind and said that the Chevalier d'Eon needed the money. So potentially, the Chevalier de Saint-Georges has sort of allowed this to happen a little bit. We're not sure. But Saint-Georges is very cool about it. He says, no, no, no, the lady had superior skill and strength.

He's a classy guy. It's a really big deal. These are two of the great sword people of Europe dueling it out in front of a crowd. I think it's so impressive that these people with these marginalized identities exist and thrive and flourish and put on this extravagant show in the middle of like high, supposedly civilized society. a novel called Letters d'une Peruvienne, Letters of a Peruvian Woman that came out in 1847, which is like a fictionalized account of an enslaved woman's time in Paris. And Saki Bartman comes to Paris and is exhibited around Paris. And because those women possibly are not insulated by their gender or by their wealth, they have a very different experience to Joseph Boulogne, the Chevalier Saint-Georges. But this side of

history, people who are living divergent identities or being powerful and successful and charismatic and sleeping with loads of women isn't really told. So this is very cool. The Chevalier returns to Paris. When he leaves London, he writes a two-act comedy, The Girl Boy. And this is very important because this is about the kind of work that he's done that has been forgotten. So he was writing a comedy about a transgender person and that should be noted somewhere and remembered forever. In 1788, we get, I think, another big name from history coming in, in terms of musical history, comes into the story a little bit.

Sophie, do you want to guess who this composer is? Think 90s nostalgic movies about dogs. Oh my God, no! I know it's not the dog, but I'm still excited. It's Beethoven. It's the actual dog. No, it's the dog. It's the actual dog!

No, it is. It's Beethoven. Olivette, what's his connection to Beethoven? Who's a young man at this point? Joseph interacted by meeting them through two characters, George Bridgetower, a mixed race violinist, and Franz Clement. And Beethoven heard Joseph's music through these two people.

Again, it's another interesting story of another black musician, another violinist in George Bridgetower, who again, he's playing for kings of Europe. But again, he's dual heritage. It's an interesting story that it's not just the Chevalier. Yes, absolutely. It's about a network of African Europeans, dual heritage people traveling across Europe and settling in European capitals, and engaging with elite communities as well. I don't know, Sophie, if 1788 rang any bells in your head in terms of political history, but 1789 might do. Yes, I think there was just a teeny tiny little revolution. A petite revolution.

A little morsel of revolution for everyone to go, oh, delicious. So, yeah, unfortunately, 1789, traumatic early on and then very traumatic later on. Sophie, I'm going to ask you to guess. Joseph Boulogne. He is a chevalier. He is a noble.

He is friends with Philippe Galité, who is a duke. He is playing in all the fanciest bars. He is playing in all the concert halls. And then a revolution comes. How do you think he reacts? Which side do you think he chooses? Revolution or monarchy? He seems like a bit of a Tory boy. I feel like he's been really close to the Queen. He's really

benefited from the money that his father has left him and his fancy connections. I'm not sure he's going to dip into the side of the revolution just yet. Olivette? No, surprisingly enough, he's also friends with Philippe Galité, who's actually more politically radical than Joseph. And they're very close. And Galité is actually for the revolutionary, even though he's a noble person. I mean, the clue's in the name. I really should have got that. You're like, him and his buddies, fraternité and Galité. No, I think he's on the side of the monarchy. How does he choose which side to support, monarchy or revolution?

Well, it seems to be a tough choice, but Joseph Elite's life in Paris clashed with his attitude towards the French governance. He, on the one hand, benefited from high status friends and jobs. He's also the son of an enslaved woman. So his loyalties were really split. But he decided to go with the revolutionaries because they were promising and working towards a better world. That's what at least what he thought at the beginning.

It's a tough gig, but he does have obviously a side skill as well as being one of Europe's leading composers and violin virtuosos. He's also, let's not forget, a very talented soldier. So when the revolution needs a talented soldier, he steps up. Do you want to tell us about the regiment that he creates? In April, the revolutionaries launched an attack on the Belgian city of Tournai. And Joseph was a captain, so he's completely immersed and he was probably involved in the fighting. Two years later, you have the Legislative Assembly that was petitioned by men of colour to authorise the formation of a legion of volunteers to fight against Austria.

So it's beyond just being a soldier, it's engaging people of colour into the fight as well. He believed that this was a fight that would bring abolition and freedom to people like him. And the regiment is also quite substantial because it was a Régiment des Hussars Américains et du Midi. So 1,000 men and Joseph was the colonel. Sophie, what's your thoughts on this? You know, he's gone from fancying around in nice parties, playing music,

and now he's in charge of a regiment of French men, of mixed race people, of people of colonial heritage. And it's quite the story, isn't it? I am sorry that I underestimated him because he's had a of a regiment of French men, of mixed race people, of people of colonial heritage. And it's quite the story, isn't it? I am sorry that I underestimated him because he's had a whole Matthew McConaissance, completely changed his vibe. He's gone from rom-coms to edgy dramas. It's very cool that there was that organizing on sort of collective identity within that military effort and that it would be headed up by a man of black heritage. And the revolution does abolish slavery, Olifet. I mean, this is one of the leading achievements of the revolution is they go, no, we're not okay with this. You know, he's on that

side. Yes, he's on that side. And he was encouraged by what was happening in the Caribbean. He was encouraged by the fact that black people, people of dual heritage in the Caribbean, were pushing the revolutionaries in France to actually do that and engage with that side of the story. So he is completely, fully for the revolutionary as long as they are completely, fully immersed into abolishing slavery. Of course, he was born and raised in Guadeloupe. His identity is part of this world. So Sophie, he is one of the world's leading composers. He's a virtuoso. He's a soldier. He's a hero of the revolution. How does France reward him?

Oh, France. I've been quite pessimistic. Does he get anything? He gets thrown in jail. Olivette, what's he done? Or what hasn't he done? They're suspicious. They don't really trust him. So you have a mess created by the

revolutionary because they're fighting among themselves. He's learned that he was going to get arrested. So he defected to the Austrians with some senior officers and men, including Philippe Egalité's 19 year old son, the future king, by the way. Robespierre decided that this is a man that should be stopped and made an example of. So he became a victim of an atmosphere of suspicion and treachery. So he's arrested. And it's really horrible because his heart was into fighting alongside them, but they don't trust him. That's the bottom line, really. This is the period where we call it the terror where the french revolution turns in on itself that the leaders of the revolution become extraordinarily

cruel and suspicious and you know rounding up people they don't trust anymore as revolutionaries this is where the mass guillotinings happen in in paris and of course eventually you're going to see the guillotining of marie antoinette and the King of France. But not just that, Olivette, we're also going to see the execution of Philippe Egalité. Yes, tragic, tragic story. Can you imagine his friend, somebody who protected him and whom he protected being killed by people Joseph had trusted and had vowed to defend and fight with? So he's thrown in jail. He's in there for 18 months. This is during the height of the terror.

And many people who were thrown in jail are dragged out and guillotined. He may be fearing for his life. Wow, it's a very riches to rags story. I feel like it started quite neutral in Guadeloupe, getting taken across the seas, quite chaotic. Then being given lots of fancy education, being a virtuosooso bedding all the women

moving around the world getting snubbed by mozart in a weird kind of stormzy wily thing and now yeah i mean i want this to be a movie so i really want him not to die i mean i know he dies eventually because this is history no he's still alive he's 300 years old and he's here now the chevalier yeah he does unfortunately die so you want a movie they are making a movie one of the writers of atlanta and what we do in the shadows is writing a movie apparently it's happening they haven't cast it yet so sophie who do you want to play the lead role i mean i'm imagining the bridgerton dude will be high up on the list because I feel like he's got a French name, if not French. OK, there's someone that could possibly play him.

His name is Fahy and he is a French comedian, young, cool and charismatic. And I think that Fahy Lopez could play him. I'm mainly saying this because I have a big crush on him. I'm thinking maybe if they need the big Hollywood money, they maybe go Donald Glover. Oh, nice. The sad thing then, of course, is the King of France is dead. The Queen of France is dead. Philippe Galité, who had voted for the execution of the King of France, is then executed.

So it's this sort of horrible moment where Philippe Galité is like, yeah, down with the monarchy. And then they're like, also down with the Duke. And he's like, oh, no, I'm one of you. So Joseph is kind of alone in the world he's spent his life making friends in the aristocracy who are guillotined but he does manage to get out of jail do we know how he does that olivette is it charm does he get lucky no it's not really luck it's because robespierre and his allies you know they had their their downfall 1794. So all those people who had been arrested were basically released and Joseph was released and reinstated.

But 18 months in prison is going to change a man. It is hard to come out of prison and just be like, hey, that was weird. Let's get back to the partying. He returns to the army, Olivette, but it doesn't quite work out. He still believes that he can be of service, but his regiment has grown, doubled actually. You have two leads now and he's not getting on at all with the other commander. So, and there are accusations, the other commander is accusing him of all sorts of things. So

eventually it's not the commander, but Joseph who would be discharged. Oh dear, it's all gone wrong, isn't it? I mean, it started so well. I mean, I like your point, Sophie, of neutral to riches to rags. Neutral to riches to rags. The classic story. Does this mean that he slots back into society, Olivet, as something different to a noble? He has to become an ordinary citizen? He's really trying to find his way. Some people have suggested that he went to the Caribbean, but it's quite unlikely because at this point, the Caribbean is also a mess. You know, the fight is going on and soon you'll have the Haitian Revolution and all that. So he probably stayed in France and probably got arrested again. And he's trying to find his way. He's probably thinking his salvation should come through music. We've got an episode on the Haitian Revolution if people want to know about that story.

He does manage to get another gig. He takes charge of the Cirque de l'Harmony, the Circle of Harmony, which is a fantastic name for a boy band, I reckon. But it is an orchestra in Paris. But it doesn't really work out and he's in quite poor health. Ultimately, he dies in his mid-50s. He had a kidney condition. He was diagnosed as the cause of an ulcer in his leg. So the ulcer became gangrenous and eventually he died in 1799. People think that he died around the age of 60. If we date him to 1745, he's more like 54 or 55 maybe. So it's an extraordinary life, Sophie. He doesn't have children that we know of. I mean, he may have had some children that he wasn't meant to have

from all the wives that he was bedding. He never marries. It's sort of a downward slope, I guess, by the end of his life. And the other thing that's so important, I think, Olivette, to just sort of finish on before we do the nuance window is that napoleon re-establishes slavery and of course crushes the rebellion in guadalupe his home of course six thousand guadalupians are killed so napoleon comes along at the very end of joseph's life and suppresses this liberty that had been won for people of color for black people and will then have an impact upon his legacy too the nuance window! So Napoleon is the bad guy in this story and we're going to find out a little bit more now because it's time for the nuance window. This is where Sophie and I have a little break and we

allow our professor Olivette to tell us everything we need to know about the legacy of the Chevalier de Saint-Georges. And without further ado, the nuance window. Napoleon reinstated slavery in the Caribbean. He decided that Joseph Boulogne would not be a martyr. So his music, his work really, should be removed from all repertoires and his music should not be played by anybody. Little by little, his music was forgotten by the majority of people in France, but it was never forgotten by people of African Caribbean communities within France and on Guadeloupe and Martinique. And they keep his legacy alive, playing his music and sharing his stories. And it took almost a century. Campaigners in various colors have been

working tirelessly to have his music played and recognized by the French state. And I'm thinking about Claude Ribe and Alain Guedet, two powerful voices, but many others actually in various communities. Things happened. 2001, they scored a victory when a street in Paris named after the governor of Guadeloupe, Antoine Richeponce, when a street in Paris, named after the governor of Guadeloupe, Antoine Richeponce, was renamed Rue du Chevalier de Saint-Georges. That was an extraordinary moment. And a commemoration of the abolition of the slave trade and slavery on the 10th of May 2014,

led by President François Hollande, also saw Joseph Boulogne being stated. And we recognize his contribution as a musician, as a fencer, his contribution to French history, really. We also saw a very, very moving moment where the Republican Guard band played his music. It was absolutely extraordinary. And I was actually crying that day. Ah, that's wonderful. Thank you so much. It's an extraordinary life and an extraordinary legacy and it's been recovered and restored. Sophie, how do you feel about the Chevalier now you've heard about him? What's your takeaway? I think it is a slightly tragic story in terms of his life because I feel like even though he had this sort of sparkling youth and this rapid ascent in society, he sort of slowly seemed to lose the people that were most important to him and never really seemed to reclaim that while he was alive but I think it's good that France has acknowledged

him recognizes him I wish that he could be more if he was mentioned in my curriculum I think it was probably a sort of an aside or a footnote and I think it is a really fantastic story so I wish he had a little bit more clout in the curriculum. It's like a bittersweet story of someone who is really quite fascinating and impressive. He genuinely was really important. He's one of the most significant composers of the 18th century. His legacy was deliberately forgotten. Bringing him back is an important act of recovery.

So what do you know now? It's time now for the So What Do You Know Now? It's a 60 second quickfire quiz for our comedian guest Sophie Duker to see how much she has learned. Sophie, you scored a perfect 10 last time out and then you had a mild panic attack, which is okay. I don't want you to get stressed again. So I'm hoping that you'll feel a bit more chill this time. How are you feeling? Très chill. Yeah, I mean, I'm feeling anxious about it again. You're going to be good. Don't worry.

Okay. All right. So here we go. Question one. Joseph Boulogne was born to an enslaved woman called Anne or Nanon on which plantation in the French Empire? The plantation in Guadeloupe. Guadeloupe is right. Yes.

Question two. Joseph was a talented skater, dancer and swimmer, but which sport did he excel in? Fencing. It was fencing. Question three. Joseph was a virtuoso musician on which instrument? On the violin. It was the violin. Question four. Which musical company did he join as first violin in 1769 and then become a leader of in 1773? It was the amateur. It was, it's concert amateur. Question five. How long was the performance run of his first and third operas?

One beautiful night, baby. It was just one night in Paris. Question six. What protest scuppered Joseph's chances of being the director of the Paris Opera? Oh, no. Oh, I don't remember. It was the singers were racist against him. They didn't want a black person leading the opera.

Question seven. Which famous musician's dad told him to go and check out Joseph's orchestra, but he refused? Um, I think this was WAM. It was Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. Absolutely. Wet-ass Mozart. Wet-ass Mozart. Wet-ass Mozart. So we've called him.

Question eight. What rank did Joseph reach in the Revolutionary Army? He was a colonel. Yes, colonel. Question nine. How long did Joseph de Boulogne spend in military prison? 18 months, maybe. It was 18 months.

And in question 10, this for nine out of 10, which would be a very strong score. In what year was the Parisian streets renamed renamed in his honor i don't remember 1840 no go much more modern way more modern 19 no not 18 or 19 oh 20 no what that's all time that's all the time 2001 2001 2001 what a great year i love the way you're like it's all time all of time yes it was 2001 it would rename so you got eight out of ten which is very strong score and i only didn't get the racism one because i don't see color but a bravo sophie clearly this comedy concerto has been brilliantly conducted by professor olivette and listeners if you've discovered that French musical revolutionaries are your thing, then why not have a listen

to our episode on Josephine Baker with Dr. Michelle Crestfield and Desiree Birch. It's an absolute classic. Or if you want more Sophie Duker, and why wouldn't you, check out the episode on the Asante Empire

with Dr. Gus Casely-Hayford. And remember, if you've had a laugh, if you've learned some stuff, please do share this podcast with your friends or leave a review online. Make sure to subscribe

to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds so you never miss an episode. All that's left for me to say please do share this podcast with your friends or leave a review online make sure to subscribe to you're dead to me on bbc sounds so you never miss an episode all that's left for me to say is a huge thank you to our guests in history corner we've had the outstanding professor olivette artelay from the university of bristol thank you olivette thank you so much for having me and in comedy corner we've had the stupendous sophie duca thank you sophie hey a big merci merci from this guy it's been a delight and to you lovely listener join me next time as we host another historical jam session with a different dreamy duo but for now i'm off to go and see what fencing sabers go for on ebay i reckon i could be a master fencer can't be that hard can it bye

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