You're Dead to Me - Cleopatra

Episode Date: April 21, 2023

Greg Jenner is joined by Dr Shushma Malik and comedian Thanyia Moore to learn about Cleopatra.Cleopatra – the seventh Ancient Egyptian Queen to bear that name – was born around 69 BCE and she’s seen by many historians as the final ruler of dynastic Egypt; a lineage that stretched back 3,000 years.From marrying and murdering her siblings to liaisons of love and political pragmatism with top Romans Julius Caesar and Mark Antony, Cleopatra led a very turbulent life. But when we strip back the modern myths and ancient interpretations, who was the real Cleopatra? Research by Aimee Hinds Scott Written by Emma Nagouse, Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Produced by Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner Assistant Producer: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow Project Management: Isla Matthews Audio Producer: Steve HankeyYou’re Dead To Me is a production by The Athletic for BBC Radio 4.

This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon pull-apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey and just five bucks for the small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are taking a pleasure cruise down the Nile and plunging into the life and afterlife of one of history's most famous women. That's right. It's Cleopatra coming at you.

In History Corner, she's Assistant Professor of Classics and the Anastas Classics Fellow at Newnham College, University of Cambridge. She specialises in the politics of Imperial Rome and classical reception studies. And you may remember her from our episode on the rise of Julius Caesar. Sorry, Julius Kaiser. It's Dr. Shushma Malik. Welcome back, Shushma. Hi, Greg. It's lovely to be here. Thanks for having me back again. And in Comedy Corner, she's an award-winning comedian actor writer and presenter you might have seen her act in the duchess on netflix or alma's not normal on the bbc or watched her being funny on mock the week mo gilligan's black british and funny drunk history or richard osmond's house of games she's got loads going on it's the terrific tanya moore welcome tanya you

made me sound so great thanks greg you are great thank like, wait, is it me? Is it my turn? Yeah, it's your turn. Welcome to the show, Tanya. I'm excited. First time on the podcast. I've seen you on Drunk History. Yes. You were doing Mary Seacole.

Yes. I'm assuming some historical knowledge is in that brain. But at the same time, you drank so much in that episode. I'm not sure if it's still there. Honestly, it was a lot. So history, you've done in a fairly intense way. But what about Cleopatra? Do you know? I mean, she's really it was a lot. So history you've done in a fairly intense way. But what about Cleopatra? Do you know?

I mean, she's really famous as a name, but do you know any of her story? I know that she's got a great name. I know that she's a she. You say Cleopatra and I think of the girl group. So that's where we are. Oh, yeah. Nice reference. We're coming at you.

That's how I feel. So what do you know? Well, that brings us to the first segment of the podcast. This is called the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what our lovely listener might know about today's subject. And I'm certain that everyone out there knows Cleopatra as a name. She's a global icon. You may be picturing a powerful, glamorous queen, famed for her beauty, her affairs with powerful Roman men, and for her notorious asp. I said asp, get your mind out of the gutter. Honestly, it's a snake. And when it comes to pop culture, there's hardly anything Cleopatra hasn't touched.

She's in paintings, literature, operas, ballet, theatre productions, poetry through the centuries. Shakespeare, with his play Antony and Cleopatra. There's the most iconic screen performance was Elizabeth Taylor in 1963. That movie lost an awful lot of money, but it looked phenomenal. And as Tanya mentioned, if you're of a certain age, I certainly am, Cleopatra coming at you. It's a fantastic pop song from the band Cleopatra. But why is she one of the most famous people in history? And what else do we need to know about her? Let's find out. Right.

Where and when is Cleopatra born? And what's the kind of family situation? So Cleopatra was probably born around 69 or 70 BCE. We're not entirely sure. Sometimes dates and family trees and things like that from this period of history can be a little bit ambiguous. We also don't know exactly where she was born, but it was probably in one of the palaces in Alexandria, which is in Egypt. Her father was Ptolemy XII, and this is part of the Ptolemaic dynasty, which is one of the dynasties that were established

after the death of Alexander the Great. And she was the eldest of five siblings. She had two sisters, Berenike IV and Arsinoe IV, and two brothers as well, Ptolemy XIII and Ptolemy XIV. We also don't know exactly who her mother was. The likely candidates are Cleopatra V, Tryphena, or perhaps an Egyptian woman. And even though we know her by the single name, Cleopatra, she's actually the seventh in the Egyptian Ptolemaic dynasty. Her name is of Greek origin as well.

Cleopatra means the glory of her father. So she's basically the Beyonce of the ancient world. We give her a one name. We're just like Cleopatra. Everyone knows who she is. But she's actually one of at least 10 Cleopatras that I know of in the ancient world Tanya we've got six previous queens Cleopatra then you've got Cleopatra herself she's the seventh there's a famous doctor called Cleopatra there's an alchemist called Cleopatra and Cleopatra has a daughter called

Cleopatra Cellini who is also so I'm up I'm up ten. So we're doing Cleopatra 7 today. I feel like we should reach out to these ladies and let them know there are other names, you know? I'm sure somebody wanted to be Sharon. Somebody wanted to be Sharon. I mean, I would laugh at that, but I'm the fourth most notable Greg on the BBC, so I'm not even...

I don't even get in the top three. Okay, so we've got lots of Cleopatras. We're doing Cleopatra the seventh today. She's born in 69 BCE, give or take. And just to give you a sense of the time period here, what do you think came first, Tanya? Cleopatra or Egypt's famous Great Pyramid of Giza? I'm going to say the Pyramid of Giza.

And you are right. Oh, come on. Do you know what the ratio is? This is one of my favourite mind-blowing facts. The pyramids were 2,500 years before Cleopatra. Ancient Egyptian history is 3,000 years. The pyramids are right at the beginning. Cleopatra is the last pharaoh in Egyptian history.

So she is closer to us, to the iPhone, to the moon landing, than to the pyramids. So she was almost asc us, to the iPhone, to the moon landing than to the pyramids. So she was almost at sending WhatsApp stage. That's crazy. Yeah, she was basically. Imagine if she sent a WhatsApp today, what would it say? It would just be symbols. It would be weird.

So Cleopatra herself is an Egyptian pharaoh and she may have an Egyptian mother, we don't know, but she's of a Greek dynasty. So what's that about? So she comes from the Ptolemaic dynasty, who were Macedonian Greek. And Ptolemy was a commander of Alexander the Great. And so he was running Egypt essentially before the death of Alexander, and then took over in that area after a few squabbles between some of the other generals as well. And in Egypt, like in many places, actually, in Rome as well, we can see this kingship and religion were

intertwined. And of course, you also have the Egyptian tradition of a pharaoh being considered divine. So all of that amalgamates in the Ptolemaic dynasty. And by the time Cleopatra was born, we sort of see the Ptolemaic dynasty being in a period where the rulership of Egypt is becoming a little bit more difficult in relationship to Rome. And Rome, on the other hand, is quite powerful during this period, particularly in its Mediterranean setting. So it's expanded its empire and it's grown to be quite a powerful force. And Tanya, what do you think Cleopatra's childhood was like? Are you thinking Disney princess or are you thinking Game of Thrones, serious political violence?

I feel like it's Game of Thrones. Maybe it starts as Disney princess because she's the first girl, first born, you said Shishma? Eldest girl, yes. So the first born always starts out in a Disney phase. So she came and she was doing Disney and then she got a sister and her sister's name isn't Cleopatra. Then she got angry, Game of Thrones, done.

That's how it goes. It's the anger. I get it. I'm a middle child. I'm the first girl. As soon as the second girl came, I was like, why is she here? We already got me. What are we doing?

We don't need this. And I feel like that's where the energy comes from good family psychoanalysis there Shushma I think Tanya's right in in the Game of Thrones vibes quite quickly supplanting the Disney vibes because it's quite a difficult childhood really isn't it? There's always that tension of who is going to succeed and what kind of upbringing they have when you're in a leading family. She was probably raised in Alexandria until she was about 11 years old we think and she was well educated in what we might call Greek high culture. We think she spoke probably somewhere around nine languages in some way, including Latin, which was very useful for Rome, but of course, also Greek. And she spoke Egyptian as well. And that's quite something because it's not clear that everyone in the Ptolemaic dynasty

would have. So she is quite extraordinary in that way. She was, though, part of a court that had plenty of intrigue in it. In 58 BCE, for example, her father, Ptolemy XII, left Alexandria for Rome, claiming that he had been exiled. Again, the intrigue here is a little bit ambiguous. Her sister, or probably half-sister, depending on, of course, who her mother is, Berenike IV was named queen and she co-ruled with another Cleopatra. A different Cleopatra. Good. Yeah. OK. Yes. OK, we're up to 11. Yeah, fine. Ptolemy returned in about 55 BCE and had his daughter Berenike IV executed.

Oh. Wow. There you go, Tanya. Game of Thrones vibes very much confirmed. Very much confirmed. I mean, nine languages. I thought I was special because I speak two languages. She speaks nine languages. What we're going to learn today is that she's a very clever person. Yeah. Do you speak any languages, Greg? I do, but not all well.

Oh my God. What languages do you speak? I'm half French, but also, you know, as a historian, you're meant to learn various languages. They've all gone from my head. So Latin and Old Norse and Middle English have all vanished. Oh, I do North London and South London. So that's the two that I cover. What a linguist. I don't want to show off, but you know, I've cracked them both.

And I'm just moving on now. I'm just going to try a West. West London is a real dialect. It's hard one yeah i'm glad that you can appreciate it great you have to spend a lot of time in waitrose yeah it's yes yes you do yes all right so cleopatra's half sister has already been murdered by her dad that is a that's a well executed formally i guess for treason. So that's a tricky childhood. How does Cleopatra end up as the Queen of Egypt? It just sounds like her dad's killing everyone off

and she's the only one left. Amazing. Yeah, it's just like... Last woman standing. Yeah, just turns around and's like, OK, it's me then. It sounds like she was a force to be reckoned with from birth and she had a different energy to everyone else because there were six Cleopatras before her and they didn't do what she did. And the ones after, we ain't talking about them though, we're talking about her.

So she was the Cleopatra. And whatever energy she walked with, it just seems to work that she was the queen. That's how it feels to me. I love that. Shushma, is that what happened? Not far off, I suppose. Shushma, honestly, I need to come to me. I love that. Shushma, is that what happened? Not far off, I suppose. Shushma, honestly, I need to come to Cambridge. Absolutely, anytime. So not far off, as in Ptolemy XII, when he died, he leaves joint rulership to Cleopatra on the one hand as the eldest, but also his son Ptolemy XIII. So they co-rule. And we actually

have an inscription from around 52 BCE, where Cleopatra VII and her brother Ptolemy XIII are referred to as the new sibling loving gods. Wow. Yeah. And it gets a little bit odd because they're married, Tanya. Huh? Yeah. Wait, hold on. They're siblings and they're married? Yeah. Wait, hold on. They're siblings and they're married? Yeah. And they're king and queen?

Yep. Do they have babies? No. Thankfully. And Ptolemy's probably like 11. Huh? What? Sorry, hold on. Yeah, a lot of klaxons are going off right now.

Yeah, my head's... Hold on a minute. So how old is she at this point, marrying the 11-year-old? 17 or 18. Yeah, somewhere around there. This is how disrespectful men have continued to be to women. Because at 18, she could never rule it alone. She had to have a man next to her, even if the man didn't know how to go toilet alone yet.

That is insane. He doesn't even know how to make a alone yet. That is insane. He doesn't even know how to make a sandwich. How is he going to rule a kingdom? Cleopatra sort of agrees. For the first couple of years or so, she just sort of removes him from all the records. Good girl. And she calls herself Thea Philopata Shushma.

What does that mean? The father-loving goddess. So it's about demonstrating familial piety. These epithets sound quite odd to us, these different naming conventions, but it's about demonstrating the relationship between this sort of dynastic family and the gods. She goes front and centre and she shoves Ptolemy XIII in the background. You stand over there, you're a kid. Yes.

We're going to call him a brusband. He's a brother, he's a husband. He's a brusband. Wow. I hope we never say that in today's world. Yeah. Yes. It's hopefully just a historical term that we've invented. He's not keen on being pushed into the background, Tanya. And he sort of asserts his power, I guess, when he's about 12 or 13, maybe, Shushma. And suddenly he's back in the public

record. And this time, his name's going first. Yes, that's right. So this happens in somewhere around 50 BCE, which also sort of demonstrates the difference in his age and how he's asserting his political position, essentially. But in around 49 or 48 BCE, Cleopatra and her sister, Arsinoe, Around 49 or 48 BCE, Cleopatra and her sister Arsinoe leave Alexandria to raise an army and get the throne back, essentially, or assert their dominance. They're not particularly successful, though, and they have to flee to Syria. That doesn't last for long either. So in September, we think around there, 58 BCE, the Roman statesman Pompey, who you might have heard of before from other episodes, arrived in Egypt because he'd been beaten by his rival in Rome, Julius Caesar, at the Battle of Pharsalus. Julius Caesar, yes. Julius Caesar, yeah, exactly. Part of the Roman Civil War context.

Pompeius Magnus, if we will use his full name as well, is hoping to find some allies in Egypt. But of course, the Egyptians had been taking bribes from, or sorry, giving bribes to Rome in order to protect their particular status. And so it doesn't work very well for Pompey then to be seeking help from them. And instead, actually, the opposite happens, and he gets his head chopped off by allies of Ptolemy XIII, because they think this will work very well with Julius Caesar. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, very, very complicated history that's happening here. We've got a civil war in Egypt between Cleopatra and her brother, and there's a civil war in Rome between Caesar and Pompey.

So you've got two parallel civil wars happening simultaneously. And they're trying to figure out if the other side can help them. Pompey shows up in Egypt going, hey, you used to pay me bribes. So are you gonna be my buddy? And they just chop his head off. And then they send it to Caesar in a basket. What a lovely hamper.

How do you think Julius Caesar takes this? He basically gets a hamper. in it is his enemy's head. Do you think he's happy? Of course he is. He doesn't have to, he's won the war. It doesn't sound like anyone back then even had a word called empathy, much less knew how to feel it. And it just feels like you just wanted to win, no matter the costs,

even if you're taking people's heads off literally you've thinking big jc by which of course we mean julius caesar slash julius kaiser not jesus christ a lot of jcs sorry i'll start again big jc you think he's happy to get the head in the hamper he's furious tanya he is outraged he's app, Shushma, you know, he was happy to try and kill him at the Battle of Pharsalus. And then suddenly someone's done it for him. Ptolemy XIII's done it for him. Why is he angry? The point is a Roman citizen has been killed by the Egyptians rather than doing what they should have done, which is sending him back to Caesar for punishment. The decision is taken out of Caesar's hands to do what he would like to do

with Pompey. And actually, it's also interesting because Caesar, in this particular period of history, is very interested in granting clemency. He likes the idea of people being indebted to him through clemency, which is a very kingly quality. So he's not as happy as we might think at this decision being taken away from him. Sounds like all the men back then were five foot two because it's given short, short while. It's Lord Farquaad. That's what it is. It's very, it's very Shrek energy. And I don't know why we're even entertaining them.

So Julius Caesar, his enemy has been killed for him. He is furious about it because, you know, the Roman state should have done this. But I suppose secretly he's thinking, great, good. I'm now top boss. He wades in. He shows up in Egypt to come and adjudicate. I mean, Cleopatra, Ptolemy XIII, I'm going to sort this out. And this is where we get a really fun story.

Cleopatra needs to figure out a way of getting face to face with Caesar. She knows she needs to convince him, Tanya. But she can't get into her old palace because she's in Syria. And if she goes to the palace, she'll be arrested and killed. So how is she going to sneak in to meet Caesar? She must know a back door for her own palace. You know when there's that one window that doesn't that isn't locked, but nobody knows unless You know when there's that one window that isn't locked, but nobody knows unless you know the house that that one window isn't locked. Find the window, babes. Stop being weird.

Shushma, I mean, Hollywood will tell us that she rolls out of a carpet, that she's rolled up in a carpet and then unfurled in the carpet. Now, the Latin or the Greek, perhaps, doesn't say carpet, bedsheets, bedding, laundry bag. What are we going with? Yeah, something like a laundry bag or a bed sheet. So something where you would have to take it out and it would have to be cleaned and then comes back in. So it's in a way that people wouldn't be immediately suspectful of. This is giving Shawshank Redemption. Yeah, it is, isn't it?

I love this for all of us. Thank you. So, yeah, so she hides in the laundry bag and she sort of bursts out and goes, ta-da! Hello, I'm Cleopatra. Nice to meet you.

He's 52 years old. She's 19 years old. Oh. He's sort of top dog. She wants to be top dog. Oh. There's going to be some chemistry,

possibly, Shushma. Oh. Yeah, so the idea is that she seduces him. So before Antony... What is happening in history? That's part of the way, of course, that political alliances are made in antiquity

and, you know, beyond as well. This has repercussions, of course, then for that sibling rivalry that's going on as well and the relationship between Ptolemy XIII and his sister. And essentially, when he realizes what Cleopatra has done, Ptolemy demonstrates his displeasure by going in front of a crowd outside the palace and ripping off his crown in a very dramatic sort of way to demonstrate that he is not happy with the situation. Caesar, though, then declares that he's going to enforce Ptolemy XII's will that the previous king had left, saying they should rule together.

And he reinstates Ptolemy XIII and Cleopatra as joint rulers. And also gives Arsinoe, the sister, and the younger brother as well, Ptolemy XIV, rule over Cyprus. Yeah. What? So Julius Caesar's plan to solve this civil war between two siblings who hate each other is to just get on with it, just co-rule. After being seduced, had a whole moment.

I'm sure she even practiced a little dance routine to solidify the seduction. You enjoyed the seduction and you still went back anyway. I'm telling you, everyone's five foot one. They're shorter now. Yeah, so Ptolemy's furious. Cleopatra and Ptolemy have to sort of share. And you're not going to be shocked to learn here, Tanya, that Ptolemy orders his forces to attack Caesar.

So his army now goes to war against Caesar's army. So now Ptolemy's declared war on Rome. You will be shocked perhaps to know that while their armies are fighting outside, Cleopatra, Caesar, Ptolemy and the sister Arsinoe are all in the same palace, probably having to have dinner together. I mean, it's pretty awkward, probably for a few months, but like there's a weird moment where these mortal enemies are all like hanging out in the same building while their soldiers fight outside this is wild i don't like you but pass the fish like that's wild so ptolemy's probably under house arrest the chaos is not over in the year 48 bce cleopatra's sister arsinoe escapes the. She gets her own army and she swaps sides.

She joins her brother, Ptolemy XIII, and she attacks Caesar with her own army. So she's now Team Ptolemy. These anti-Cleopatra troops capture most of Alexandria, the city that they're in. Caesar is trapped in the palace. And then because this is all so boringly uneventful, we then also get a massive fire breaking out. Shushma, how does the fire break out? Because this is a very famous fire

from history. Absolutely. Yeah. So during the siege of Alexandria, Caesar's ships are hemmed in by Ptolemy's navy. And Caesar orders them the enemy ships to be burned. But it's very difficult to control the fire at the best of times, let alone in the middle of a naval warfare. And the fire accidentally spreads to the docks. And then the famous library of Alexandria. And this isn't the occasion where the library burns down completely, but a number of books are destroyed. And now we know where the idea and premise for Gossip Girl came from, because this is literally a series. Honestly, that is so funny.

I mean, so they're all sharing the palace. The palace is on fire. The library's on fire. The navy's on fire. The sister has swapped sides and betrayed her sister. So Arsinoe is now on Team Ptolemy against Julius Caesar and Cleopatra. So it's all very chaotic.

We then get a big naval battle where it goes wrong for Ptolemy XIII. There's a naval battle. It's Caesar versus Ptolemy. Ptolemy loses. He tries to escape by jumping into the Nile to swim away. And he drowns in his armour. So Ptolemy XIII, he's dead.

He jumped in the river in armour and hoped to swim and not sink. So he's dead at 15. Ptolemy's out. He's gone. That's a pretty intense life for 15 years. Yes. That is intense. He's gone. That's a pretty intense life for 15 years. Yes. That is intense. He's packed it in, isn't he? Yeah, absolutely.

As soon as he learned to make a sandwich, it all went wrong. Honestly. So Cleopatra now has Arsinoe taken prisoner. So her sister who betrayed her, she gets her taken prisoner. She publicly shames her in the streets and then they send her off into exile. Where did they send her to, Shushma? They sent her to a temple in Ephesus. Ephesus is in... Turkey? Yeah, Monday, Turkey. Exactly. Yeah. She's sent off to live in a sacred temple and sort of under house arrest almost. Cleopatra has one remaining brother left,

Ptolemy XIV. He's a child. What do you think she does to him, Tanya? I'm going to say off with his head. It's the other way. She marries him. What is happening? She married a baby. She still needs another co-rool. Well, fair, because now she can raise this one

and train it to be who she wants it to be. I love the way you said train it, like it's a dog i just don't think anyone in these stories are human it's too far-fetched this is very they're all humans but yeah so she so she's marrying ptolemy the 14th her younger younger brother they become joint king and queen of egypt and cyprus but exactly at the same time she's now hooking up with julius, who, of course, is married. Of course he is. He's 53 years old. He's got a wife back in Rome. But he's now having a lovely time on holiday with Cleopatra and they get pregnant.

They have a baby. Do you know what the baby's called, Tanya? Cleo Caesars? That's a good guess. That's a pretty good guess. Yeah, I mean, the baby's called Ptolemy, obviously. But the baby has a nickname, and the nickname is Caesarian, which means mini Caesar. Is Julius Caesar a doting daddy? Is this his first kid, or does he have a kid at home as well?

His child at home, Julia, had been married to Pompey, but she died in childbirth. Do they not know anyone else? Is it just them on the planet? What is happening? Yeah. So Shushma, they've got a child, Ptolemy XV, I suppose, but everyone calls him Caesarian, Little Caesar. Is this a scandal for Caesar? It's not a huge scandal because he never really officially accepted paternity. So although everyone in Rome seems to know that

he's had a child with Cleopatra, so we have a letter, for example, from Cicero to his friend Atticus that suggests that Caesarian was widely accepted to be Caesar's child. Caesar had actually left Egypt by the time Caesarian was born and probably only first met him in about 46 BCE when Cleopatra travelled to Rome, along with her husband of the time, Ptolemy XIV. Aye, aye, aye. So she needed two child seats. One for her husband, one for her child.

This is crazy. Absolutely. Very cheap way to travel, though. The Senate, thankfully, did recognise Cleopatra and Ptolemy XIV as legitimate rulers of Rome, of Egypt, and also friends to Rome as well. So that's unfortunate. OK, so Cleopatra shows up in Rome with Julius Caesar on her arm. Is it a sort of open secret?

This feels like a sort of tense moment. It also feels like they needed Jerry Springer. Yeah. So Shushma, Caesar is the most powerful man in Rome now. He is a dictator for life. And Julius Caesar has got a wife and then suddenly Cleopatra shows up with her brother-husband, brusband. What's going on with that dynamic? Is Cleopatra popular in Rome? Cleopatra has come with her husband,

which would be much more awkward if she hadn't, let's put it that way, if she turned up with just Caesarion. So the dynamic there is still that of the visiting Ptolemaic dynasty coming to Rome as friends of Rome and living there in that capacity for a while. To be honest, it's difficult to know what the long-term repercussions would have been because actually we're heading now into 44 BCE, the Ides of March and the death of Julius

Caesar. That Roman political assassination in 44, it puts a fairly swift end to this slightly awkward dynamic in any case. Yes. I mean, Caesar is stabbed 23 times, something like that. Wow. His friends turn on him. It's pretty brutal. So Cleopatra, she has to do a runner from Rome because her boyfriend's just been murdered. So she runs back to Egypt and within a couple of months, Ptolemy XIV, Brosband, her kid brother slash husband, he's dead too, Shushma, in suspicious circumstances, question mark?

Yes, that's right. Our Roman historians do love a suspicious circumstance when it comes to women and their husbands. So one of our historians, Josephus, who is a historian of the mid-first century CE, so about 100 years or so later than these events are happening, he says that Cleopatra poisoned her husband. But this really is a very familiar accusation. So we need to read it with that in mind as well. But Cleopatra did make her son, Caesarian, a co-ruler at this point. This is also about her own protection because despite everything she's done, the reason why she probably married Ptolemy XIV

is it is very difficult for a woman to rule alone, quite simply, in antiquity. So making her infant son a co-ruler sets her up as a kind of regent figure. Yeah, I mean, infant son is the word. He's what, four? You know, he's incredibly young at this point. Quick summary. Ptolemy XIII drowns. Cleopatra marries Ptolemy XIV, gives birth to Ptolemy XV, who is not the child of Ptolemy XIV, but actually the child of Caesar, who himself is murdered. So Cleo does a runner back home maybe murders Ptolemy 14th then makes Ptolemy 15th her co-ruler to ensure that Ptolemy 15th himself will not grow up and murder her have you got that got that I would murder Ptolemy 14th as well after he got to about nine because if he's going to follow his big brother he's probably going to

make me go through a whole load of rubbish again. So, yeah, she was right to not poison him, quote unquote, and then get her son involved. And so what's nice is her son will now know if you mess around, you will die. Yeah, I guess two case studies to, yeah, the family tradition is like, OK, don't mess with mum. It's pretty exhausting. We've had executed sister, a drowned brother, a poisoned brother, possibly. We've got a four yearyear-old on the throne. Why didn't they teach history in school like this? I totally would have engaged if I knew history was literally EastEnders before EastEnders.

This is great. Let's get away from the men in her life. Let's talk about Cleopatra as a leader. Let's talk about the economy and politics. Cleopatra does the classic thing that Ramesses did of pursuing building projects. That's good. She expands Alexandria's boundaries. That's good. She's hiring people. She's employing them. She's trying to put money back in the economy. Fair enough. I mean, there are strikes in the rural countryside. There are food shortages. The coinage has been debased. You know, there's problems minting gold coins. They're trying to

get the economy up and running again. And of course, Cleopatra is trying to welcome in scholars and thinkers into Alexandria. She's doing her best to get Egypt back on its feet after a civil war. But it's tough going. It's an uphill battle for her. Yeah, I think that's fair. She does, like you say, have an uphill battle in some respects. This isn't just, of course, due to the situation of Egypt and its relationship with Rome. This isn't just, of course, due to the situation of Egypt and its relationship with Rome. But when you do have these periods of civil war or these kind of dynastic issues, that does then have an impact on the kind of economic situation that is prevalent at the time. And she also had territories that could provide revenue from goods as well.

So copper and timber from Cyprus. And then there are exports, of course, from Egypt itself, when it was able to get the farming back on track, as it were. And grain is a very important part of this. The grain supply to Rome and also things like vegetable oil and textiles. So under Cleopatra, Alexandria managed to regain some of its status, but it's a difficult road. I feel like she's had a really tough time.

She's like 25 at this point. She's not old. Wow! She's really a young woman. She's only 25. Yeah, maybe late 20s, but she's a young woman. She's now co-ruling with her child, and she's trying to get the economy working. It's a lot. That's a lot for mid to late 20s but like she's a young woman she's now co-ruling with her child and she's trying to get the economy working it's a lot that's a lot for like late mid to late 20s mid to late 20s now

they're just trying to figure out how to wear their eyebrows it's very different energy very different energy i've got a lot of respect more respect than i came to this call with she's done a lot of a lot of work you know we started a bit rocky. We were chopping off people's heads and marrying children. But now, we're locked in. The path is clear. She's maturing. I love this. Yeah.

I mean, there's the legacy of the glamour. I mean, Cleopatra is renowned through history for her glamour. Some of the stories, you know, golden throne rooms, taking long baths in ass's milk, which sounds worse than it is. Yeah. That's donkey's milk, which sounds worse than it is. That's donkey's milk. It still sounds horrible. So, you know, sort of the lavish stuff. In terms of the lavish story, we jump ahead slightly, but there is a good one here. So Tanya, just according to one Roman author, Cleopatra later wins a bet with her future Roman boyfriend, Mark Antony, who we'll come to in a bit. The bet is who can host the most expensive meal. Do you want to guess what Cleopatra later wins a bet with her future Roman boyfriend, Mark Antony, who we'll come to in a bit.

The bet is who can host the most expensive meal. Do you want to guess what Cleopatra eats that is so pricey? Another sibling? I mean, at this point, guys, at this point, is that a wild suggestion? Is it, would she eat the donkey whose milk she bathed in oh that's a good guess no she eats jewelry should the story goes she has a pearl earring that is priceless and she dissolves it in a glass of wine which is a sort of vinegar and acidic and the pearl dissolves she glugs it down wins the bet.

Because how can you defeat that? You know, a priceless pearl from the bottom of the ocean. So that's the sort of level that she's at. That's how she wins her bets. Honestly. You don't see that on Come Dine With Me, do you? No. She's a crafty one, O'Clear.

She is a crafty one. So sticking with the glamorous reputations, Cleopatra, these days, of course, we now think of her as famously beautiful. You know, Hollywood have told us that she looked like Liz Taylor. But what do we know of what Cleopatra looked like, how she presented herself to the world? Do we have ancient sources? Yeah, so we really know very little about what most people looked like, I suppose, in antiquity.

Changing beauty standards are, of course, an issue. The way that we conceive beauty now is not the same as it was conceived in antiquity or in the medieval period or whatever it might be. And a lot of the ways that we understand what people are supposed to look like, or I suppose how they represented themselves or were represented by others are through things like busts and coins. In some representations, she's sort of standardized to look like an Egyptian art figure. In others, it's more of Greek style, going back to sort of the Ptolemaic dynasty aspect. In Roman coin portraits, she looks much more sort of Roman. Conventional Hellenistic portraits, so this is portraits

from the period in which she lived essentially, depict her normally with a sort of quite prominent nose and chin, her hair drawn back in a hairstyle that's segmented into braids and she had a diadem wrapped around her hair as well which would have been in a bun. And also then, of course, she was sometimes represented as a goddess as well or as a god, so Isis. So these are all quite a mix of different representational styles that we can draw on to understand how people might have encountered Cleopatra. But what she actually looked like is a slightly more difficult question. And we've mentioned Mark Antony, so I guess we should do this romance now, come on. How are they hooking up? Who's contacting who? What's the opening line?

Okay, so Mark Antony is a Roman politician in this period and he's also very famous for being a particularly effective military commander. And he is a close political ally of Julius Caesar when Julius Caesar is assassinated in 44 BCE. And in the aftermath of Caesar's death, he's one of the three men who share power in Rome. This is a relationship known as the triumvirate. And those three men are Octavian, who is the adopted son of Julius Caesar,

and another man named Marcus Lepidus, who is the least famous, I suppose. No one cares about him. And Octavian, of course, is the one who's going to go on and become Augustus, the first emperor. So spoiler alert, sorry. Antony needed to know basically where the support of Egypt lay and whether he could count on it. So he wanted to find out what the situation with Cleopatra was. And she also wanted to impress him because of ongoing Roman protection. So it worked quite well for her as well to have that alliance. According to Plutarch, and I say this with a little bit of a caveat because Plutarch is writing in the late first century CE, early second century, so quite a long time afterwards. And he is one of the people who's quite interested in setting Cleopatra up as this sort of femme

fatale figure. He is, for example, Shakespeare's main source when Shakespeare comes to write his Antony and Cleopatra. So according to Plutarch, she travelled by pleasure boat, dressed up to evoke Aphrodite, the goddess. And when Antony invited her to dinner, she refused, instead requesting that he should join her. Ooh, power move.

Ooh, ooh, Cleo, honestly. Oh, I love this. I love her. Yeah. I'm in love with her now. It's giving. He went down on one knee and she was like, no, get up. And she went down on one knee.

I love that. I love that dynamic. I love that. And she dresses up as Aphrodite, who is, of course, the goddess of love and sex. So it's fair. Not being coy there. Well, we knew she was a seducer from before, didn't we? She's been in the seducing game for a minute.

So that's not even a shock. So Mark Antony, he's young by Roman standards. He's 40. It's an improvement on Caesar, who was 52. But then again, he's very old by her brother's standards. And obviously, as you said, Shishma, there's a kind of mutual, you know, she needs a powerful Roman man to support her. He maybe needs Egypt

to be on side. But we get a sense here, there's passion. This is not a kind of boring relationship of necessity. There's a spark there. And what do they do in their free time? How are they hanging out? So again, this is something that Hollywood depictions of Antony and Cleopatra, of course, really like to take hold of and run with. The idea that they were genuinely in love, we don't get huge numbers of stories like that from antiquity, but they do seem, according to our sources in any case, to have been people who enjoyed each other's company. So they spend a lot of time together in Alexandria, so in Egypt, enjoying things like plays and music, dance as well, philosophy, hunting. They also

have twins, Cleopatra Selene and Alexandra Helios in 40 BCE. So Selene means moon and Helios means sun, right? Yes. That's so nice. No more Cleopatras. We like that as well. Well, Cleopatra Selene. Oh, damn it. Don't break with the brand, Tanya. Come on.

Oh, sorry, sorry. Okay, so they've got twin kids. So they've got twins, a girl and a boy. Which is good for dynastic aspects to have not only Caesarian, but also the twins as well. The other thing that Antony does is orders the death of Arsinoe. Remember, she was in exile at the temple in Ephesus. The sister. The sister. So this is another event that, again, just consolidates

Cleopatra and gets rid of potential rivals, but also is quite problematic because she is killed on the steps of possibly the sacred temple in Ephesus. Why did he kill her? Because she's a threat. She's got a claim to the throne. She's the sister, right? She was minding her business. She was all the way over there in Turkey minding her sweet business,

bothering nobody. Yeah, but now he's got kids to think about. He's got his twins. He doesn't want anyone coming in. Such a dirty game. And obviously, murdering a princess and the sacred steps of a temple is a no-no in any civilization so uh that doesn't go down very well in rome and also mark anthony he's got himself in some hot water because he's married to octavian's sister he's married to the sister of his sort of the guy

who he needs to keep on side but he's also having a two-timing relationship with Cleopatra. Cleo doesn't mind stealing people's men. She's a booger. And Shishma, they have kids as well. Marc Antony and Octavia, they have children. And they are called Antonia and Antonia. Because, you know, why not? And then Antony's off to have some wars with the Parthians in,

I guess what we'd call Iran now, Persia, that kind of world. It's a disaster, right, Shushma? It is a disaster. So the Romans had not had very much success with the Parthians in recent decades. So in the mid-50s, Crassus, who had been a former ally of Julius Caesar, had gone to try and make some gains in terms of Parthian territory. So the Parthians are the empire that border the Roman empire. That was spectacularly unsuccessful and Crassus lost the Roman standards. The Roman standards were taken as part of that battle. And what Antony decides he wants to do is go in and try and get back those Roman standards through military victory. So the flags, the kind of the banners that

the soldier holds in battle. Yeah. Exactly. Wow. But he is also disastrous. He doesn't die in the campaign as Crassus had done, but he doesn't succeed in making any gains. But it's okay, because he runs home to Alexandria and they have another child with Cleopatra and they call this one, Tanya? Cleopatra the 57th. They call it Ptolemy oh why do I keep getting this wrong what am I not

checking into they call it Ptolemy Philadelphus so like his grandad his great grandad yeah yeah so another Ptolemy

so that's five Ptolemies in one episode a new record for us hooray for us so Mark Antony he's leading a cushy double life. He's got two women either side of the Mediterranean,

Cleopatra in Egypt, Octavia back in Rome. He's married to his buddy's sister. It's very awkward and tense. He's cheating on her. He's got two sets of kids either side of the Mediterranean. But, I mean, he's making enemies back in Rome. And I'm surprised, Shushma, because Cleopatra up to this point is super savvy, super smart in playing the game and knowing how to keep everyone on side.

But here she's tied herself to Mark Antony, who is losing all his support back in Rome. This is going to go wrong, right? Yes, it's going to go wrong unless it doesn't, I suppose, because you can be on the, it can seem like everything's going wrong, but then you turn it around. I guess the important thing, though, is that Antony and Cleopatra try and make it seem like things are going well. Often perception is as important. They're sending out the Christmas cards, the whole family portrait. Precisely, exactly. Yeah, stability, all the songs on the table. Mark Antony has a triumphal parade and they have an elaborate, orchestrate an elaborate ceremony that is tied to this new sort of dynastic element with the children.

This is called the Donations of Alexandria. So basically what it means is that Cleopatra was declared the Queen of Kings. So her status is put in relation to her son, Caesarian, in particular. Caesarian, who's now about 13 years old, is declared as joint ruler, and her other children receive titles and territories. So it's about, again, consolidating that dynastic family image, the Christmas card type thing, as you say. But there are still these growing tensions between Antony and Octavian. And actually, our sources tend to blame these on Cleopatra in part. She has seduced Antony and she has caused him to forget his Roman values.

He's a Roman citizen, he should know better. He should remember his wife back in Rome and return and so forth. So this is the root of a lot of the sort of negative stories we hear about Cleopatra. So she's getting these kind of Yoko Ono treatment. She's breaking up the Beatles. Exactly. Yeah. Although hopefully the Beatles were stronger than Antony and Octavian were at any point. But by about 33, end of 33 BCE, the triumvirate was pretty much over and Antony was politically exiled now away from Rome and

that's quite important because Octavian is in Rome he's able to influence from the centre whereas Antony is in in Alexandria and that's a very big part of the political rhetoric that Octavian can use to turn essentially the Roman people off of Antony and make them loyal to him. Yeah and now it's going to go really rather wrong because Octavian is like, you're going to be married to my sister. And Mark Antony's like, oh, sorry. Don't worry, I'll sort it.

I'll divorce her. And he's like, no, that's not what I was looking for. Yeah, that wasn't the angle. No, so he dumps the sister, shacks up with Cleopatra. They go on a lovely tour of Greece. You go and see the sights. And Octavian is like, fine, let's go to war then. So now Rome is at war with Egypt. Octavian is at war with Cleopatra and Mark Antony. It's all going

a bit wrong. They have to chuck vast sums of money at raising a huge army, a massive navy. It's all going to go great, except unfortunately, a load of the soldiers and sailors in Cleopatra's army defect to Rome. They swap sides. And we get the very famous battle in history called the Battle of Actium, which sounds like a yogurt that's good for digestion, but it's not. Actium is a big naval battle and it just goes really wrong, Shushma.

It goes wrong for Mark Antony and Cleopatra. Cleopatra has to flee. Mark Antony follows her with his ships. They do a runner. It's in September 31 BCE. Octavian is triumphal. They run back to Egypt, back to flee. Mark Antony follows her with his ships. They do a runner. It's in September 31 BCE. Octavian is triumphal. They run back to Egypt, back to Alexandria. And this is where the story is going to come to its sort of horrible end, right? We have them vulnerable and Cleopatra, I mean, she takes it badly. She starts executing politicians.

I'm really glad that by the time we were born, if someone got on your nerves, you didn't just start a war. I'm really happy you can just message a friend and say horrible things about them and then that's the end. Because if we lived in that time and you got on my... Imagine somebody cutting you up on the road and now you're doing a war.

What? What is happening? Why is it always a war? Just argue. Stop being weak. Well, when you've got an army, that's the thing. Why is it always a war? Just argue. Stop being weak. Well, when you've got an army, that's how you solve your problems. So we have various conflicting sources,

but the long and the short of it is that Octavian says to Cleopatra, Tanya, if you kill Mark Antony, I'll leave you alone. Do you think she turns on Mark Antony to save her own head? Initially, I want to say no, because she likes this guy, doesn't she? She didn't necessarily like her siblings because they kept trying to overrule her. So it's either she says no and it's the end of the story because they unfortunately kill Cleo. Or she says yes and my mind just blown again

at how many people she's willing to kill. She's the first female serial killer. That's how I feel. Well, Shushma, she decides she's not going to turn on Mark Antony and she starts planning for her own death. She builds a mausoleum. So she's planning her own funeral. And listener, a warning here. We now are going to have to talk about the end of Cleopatra and Mark Antony, which of course famously involves self-harm. So if you're not feeling in the right

headspace to hear about that, jump ahead a few minutes. Shushma, she's planning for her own death. The Romans are coming for them. It's endgamegame now and obviously Shakespeare does this very famously but how does this famous love story end tragically yeah so um I'm a bit concerned because Tanya looks like she's a little bit traumatized yeah I'm emotional we've been on a journey guys we've been on a journey she started out as a princess she ended ended up being a warrior. Now she's going to die a princess. That's emotional. Oh, well, I'm sorry. But in about 30 BCE, so just after the Battle of Actium, Octavian decided that he was going to attack Egypt directly. So even though Antony was sort of ready to counter this and was planning something quite ambitious,

most of the ship, well, Cleopatra's ships really surrendered. Cleopatra went to her mausoleum and sealed herself inside. And again, our sources for these things are quite a lot later, but Plutarch and Cassius Dio, who were both writing quite a long time after these events happened, they report that she told her attendants to tell Antony that she was dead and this report prompted Antony to stab himself. It obviously goes very sadly because Antony doesn't die instantly. He regains consciousness.

Cleopatra has him brought into the mausoleum to die by her side. She stays in the tomb grieving for a week. Octavian shows up and they drag her out through a to die by her side. She stays in the tomb grieving for a week. Octavian shows up and they drag her out through a window and take her prisoner. Although another story says that they grab her kids as hostage and she sort of agrees to talk to Octavian to get the kids back. But either way, Octavian and his army basically drag her out of her mausoleum. And Shushma, what happens now for Cleopatra? Cleopatra is allowed to sort of oversee Antony's funeral arrangements, but she also falls ill. Octavian did say that Cleopatra would let her

live, but that would mean, of course, going to Rome as a prisoner of war, which would mean going as part of a triumph, which is a very, very humiliating process, parading her as a prisoner of war, and particularly, you know, a royal prisoner of war as well. So she goes back to the palace, sends a letter to Octavian. We're told she has a bath, she gets dressed, she eats her last meal, and then she locks herself away with two attendants, and she dies by her own hand. And her attendants then make sure that she's properly laid out for when she's found and Octavian then orders her to be interred in her mausoleum with Antony. Yeah I mean their attendants also end their own life as well so it's very sad. So Mark Antony

has died by suicide, Cleopatra has died by suicide and so have her attendants. It's a tragic end to the story. It's a lot to take in, Tanya. And she's only 30. Yeah, about 40, just coming up to 40. Okay. Well, I couldn't even bring maths to the podcast. Sorry. For many historians, we would classify this as the end of dynastic Egyptian history.

3,000 years of pharaohs and Cleopatra's the last. Not everyone agrees, but that's sort of broadly how people see it. Egypt now becomes a Roman province and Octavian becomes the first emperor. He renames himself Augustus the Great. Cleopatra, she kicked it for a while, but in the end, Rome always wins. The Nuance Window! It's time now for the nuance window. This is where Tanya and I recline in a bath of asses milk.

Not like that. And we allow Professor Shushma to talk for two uninterrupted minutes about something we need to know. So my stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Shushma. So one of the most fascinating things I think about Cleopatra is her legacy, the idea of Cleopatra in the myth that she has become, the idea of this femme fatale seductress. Her name becomes synonymous with figures from history like

Mata Hari or famous women who are seen as double-crossers and temptresses and seducers. And we really need to be quite aware that these stories are based on foundations that have to do with trying to understand how a woman like Cleopatra was able to wield the kind of power that she did. She does have, of course, the roots through marriage with different members of the Ptolemies and then also ruling as a regent for her son. But she really was quite extraordinary in the kind of power and the kind of role in Mediterranean history that she was able to wield. And when our sources are trying to make sense of this, they often want to figure this woman as being something extraordinary and superhuman. And that really has made its way

into the kinds of myth that we tell about her and the kinds of ways that we conceptualize female power in male dominated scenarios. We're used to understanding Rome as only inhabited by very powerful men. And here we have this very powerful woman. So part of the way that I think when we look at a film like Liz Taylor's Cleopatra or part of the way that I think when we look at a film like Liz Taylor's Cleopatra, or any of the representations that we have, we just need to think about how this woman would have had a very difficult life, was in a position of considerable power, but was trying, probably it seems, to do what was best for Egypt. And again, possibly as someone who was part of the Egyptian culture and heritage, not only through being a queen of that region,

but possibly a descendant from people in those regions as well. So this is really an important story about how we understand women in power in patriarchal societies. Amazing. Thank you so much, Shushma. That's fascinating. Tanya, you started coming in not knowing anything about Cleopatra. Where do you stand on her now? I feel like she's my sister. Actually, no, because I'm like that. She's my neighbour. Very careful being Cleopatra's sister. I have much more respect for somebody who at a very young age had a lot on their shoulders and had to marry children

i don't know what that's like i never want to know what that's like also it sounds like after going through all such turmoil and like really trying her hardest to remain the queen and to remain respected and all of that she finally found love and that was the thing that killed her and that's sad yeah she fell in love with the wrong guy oh don't don't we all greg don't don't we all so what do you know now this is our quickfire quiz for tanya to see how much she has learned and we have talked about so much stuff i've got 10 questions for you t Tanya. You feeling confident? I'm feeling like I'm going to have a good time. That's good. Okay. Happy with that. Okay. Here we go. Question one. What Egyptian dynasty of Greek Macedonian descent did Cleopatra belong to? How do you say the brother's name? Ptolemy. Ptolemy. Ptolemy. Ptolemy. Yeah, absolutely. Question two. Name two of the

nine languages that Cleopatra knew had to speak. She spoke Greek and Egyptian. She did. And Latin and various others. Yes. Question three. How, according to legend, did Cleopatra first sneak into the palace to meet Julius Caesar? Through the laundry. Yes, she did. Question four. Which goddess did Cleopatra particularly like to dress up as? Isis. Yeah, as? Isis. Yeah, it was Isis.

Question five. After the death of both her brother slash husband slash brusband, Ptolemy and Ptolemy, who did Cleopatra share the throne with? He was only four. Caesarian. Yeah, her son Caesarian. Well done.

Question six. When Mark Antony had Cleo's sister Arsinoe murdered, what was so scandalous about the location of the execution? It was on the very sacred steps. Yeah, it was in Ephesus. Well done. Come on! You're doing so well.

Question seven. Name one of Egypt's major exports during Cleopatra's reign. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. She did exports of... Oh, no! Oh, no! Oh, no. Oh, like grains? Yes, grain.

Very good. Well done. You got it in the end. Yes. Question eight. In 31 BCE, Cleopatra and Antony lost a sea battle against Octavian. Named a bit like a yoghurt, what was the battle called? It wasn't Actimel, but it was something along those lines.

Activo. Actium. Actium, that's it. I'll give you that. Question nine. How did Cleopatra die, according to the sources? She died by suicide. And question ten.

This for a perfect score. It would be incredible. What expensive thing did Cleopatra allegedly drink to win a bet with Mark Antony about who could have the most... The pearl from the bottom of the sea. Ten out of ten. Tanya Moore. Perfect.

Well done. Well done. Thank you so much, Tanya. And thank you, Shushma, as well. And listener, if after today's episode you want more from Shushma, you can check out our episode on the rise of Julius Caesar. Julius Caesar to you and me. And for more Egyptian pharaohs,

we've got episodes on Hatshepsut, another fantastic queen. And of course, Ramses the Great. What a guy he was. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review, share the show with friends, make sure to subscribe to You're Dead to Me

on BBC Sounds so you never miss an episode. All that's left for me to say is a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We had the amazing Shushma Malik from the University of Cambridge. Thank you, Shushma. Thanks so much, Greg. And in Comedy Corner, We had the amazing Shushma Malik from the University of Cambridge. Thank you, Shushma. Thanks so much, Greg. And in Comedy Corner, we had the truly terrific Tanya Moore.

Thank you, Tanya. Thank you. Thank you all. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we unroll another historical carpet to see what falls out. But for now, I'm off to go and marry my brother. Bye! You're Dead to Me was a production by The Athletic for BBC Radio 4. The research was by Amy Hines-Scott. Bye! Is Batman actually a baddie?

Wayne Enterprises have a huge carbon footprint. What's really going on with Marvin Gaye? The moment you play it, everyone's raising eyebrows. Was Cleopatra a snake or a saviour? She's manipulated. Roman leaders. Maybe she had a great personality. I'm Russell Cain

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