You're Dead to Me - Edo Japan

Episode Date: August 9, 2024

In this episode, Greg Jenner is joined in seventeenth-century Japan by Dr Satona Suzuki and comedian Ahir Shah to learn all about the Edo period and the Tokugawa shogunate. When he came to power in 1603, Tokugawa Ieyasu became the first shogun to rule over all Japan. He made Edo – later renamed Tokyo – his power base, and over the 250 years of Tokugawa rule, this small town became one of the largest cities in the world. This episode charts the rise and fall of the shogunate, and explores what life was like for people living in Japan at this time. From politics to theatre, and taking in foreign relations, the class system, art and literature, Greg and his guests get to grips with all aspects of life in the Edo period. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Annabel Storr Written by: Annabel Storr, Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: James Cook

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That's Witness History from the BBC World Service. Listen and subscribe wherever you get your BBC podcasts. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are boarding our black ships and sailing back to 17th century Japan to learn all about life in the Edo period. And to help us distinguish our koso-dei from makimono, we have two very special guests in History Corner. She's a lecturer in both Japanese and modern Japanese history at SOAS, University of London.

She researches and teaches the rise of modern Japan with a particular focus on imperialism, ministerism and the relationship between politics and religion. It's Dr. Satana Suzuki. Welcome Satana. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here today. We're very excited to have you and in Comedy Corner. He's a stand-up comedian, writer and the winner of the Edinburgh Festival Comedy Award 2023. Maybe you've heard him on Radio 4 or seen him on Mock the Week or Have Good News for You or Life of the Apollo or The Mash Report, all those things. But you'll definitely remember him from our episodes about Julius Caesar, Julius Kaiser or the Indus Civilisation. It's Ahir Shah. Welcome back Ahir.

Hello. Thank you very much for having me back. I'm very excited about this. When I asked if you wanted to do this show, your face lit up with a frenzied zeal I've not seen before. You were so ready for this. I was first asked about this when I'd just finished watching Shogun and was listening to the audiobook of Shogun at the time. In fact, I may well have been listening to the audiobook when I first got an email about it. So I was like, right, I definitely know

everything about this topic based on what I'm sure was a documentary I recently watched. Yes, the Shogun TV series is fantastic telly. Historically, I think it takes some liberties. It changes some nights. I think that I'd assume that if the way that things panned out, if they panned out in real life like they panned out in Shogun, you'd run out of people pretty quickly. There's a lot of boiling people alive, but apart from that, great telly. So I think we can say we've got two experts in the room today, which is very exciting. I don't know very much about this period, I'm really excited to learn more.

So, what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And for listeners outside of Japan, I suspect chances are the answer is not very much, much like me. Maybe you've seen the Keanu Reeves historical blockbuster, 47 Ronin. Maybe you're a video game fan and you've played Shogun Total War. My fave. But most likely you'll know the recent TV series that I have mentioned already, Shogun.

It's based on the novel by James Clavell, which lightly fictionalizes the foundation of the Tokugawa Shogunate and if you're a real Shogun head maybe you saw the short-lived 1990 musical also based on Clavell's novel but what's the true story behind this brilliant TV show what did samurai really get up to and just who was the dog Shogun let's find out right ah here you have seen Shog, so you know the answer to this question. Probably. When did the Edo period start? So I think you also did say at the beginning of this thing that we're talking, yeah, 17th century Japan, when I guess as you said the Tokugawa Shogunate started, and I think that

is Edo the sort of name that was given to what we now call Tokyo was called Edo At the time I'm going to go 1647 well the show is set in 1600 and as a satana We start the dynasty a tiny bit later. We started the same year that in England or Britain. We start the Stuart era 1603 so how long is the Edo period? Why do we start it there? So the Edo period lasted from 1603, so that's when Tokugawa Ieyasu was appointed Shogun

by the Emperor, to 1867. That's when Tokugawa Yoshinobu, that's the last Shogun, returned the land and registered to the emperor. So 260 years, something like that. I'm not really good at math, but something like 260 years. So it's a long time, right? And this is a time of warfare, instability. This is not a peaceful era. No, it's not. The Edo period was preceded by a period of constant warfare and instability for about 100 years from like 15th to 16th centuries which is usually called a warring state period or Sengoku Jidai in Japanese. But then between 1560 and 1582, Oda Nobunaga, that's one of

my favourite historical figures. I use him for some of my passwords. Maybe I shouldn't say this. Don't say that on the radio! But I do. Coincidentally, same name as my mother's maiden name. And my first pet! Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something like that. But anyway, he was one of the warring state daimyō, and he sort

of used force to extend control over two-thirds of Japan, and then he even overthrew the Muromachi government of the Ashikaga shogunate. Unfortunately, one of his subordinates, Achi, Mitsuhide. He assassinated Oda Nobunaga in 1582 and after that his other subordinate Toyotomi Hideyoshi, he rose to power. So Hideyoshi rose to power in 1590. He didn't last long but he was quite impressive, is that fair? Yeah, yeah. He was very impressive because he was born into a peasant family but he sort of worked his way up by being a really good sort of strategist and also he had a really good sort of communication skills that's very important anytime in the history and he was also like a sandal bearer for Nobunaga.

Okay, so he carried his shoes. I was far too sort of in comedian brain then because when you said he didn't last very long but he was impressive I just wanted to go for a very non radio for joke You're welcome to have a crack at it So Hideyoshi conquered Japan in 1590 died in 1598. Yeah Who takes over from him then? So Toyotomi Hideyoshi, that's Toyotomi Hideyoshi's five-year-old son.

So he was left in charge, but he was managed by, you know, a group of five regions. I am very, very unlikely to conquer Japan, right? However, if I did, and eight years later I died and de jure if not de facto rule passed to my five-year-old son, I would be so gutted. I've done all this effort, only eight years would suck. Yeah, and also giving it to a five-year-old feels reckless to me. My daughter is very nearly five. If she were in charge, there'd be an awful lot of bluey based policies, an awful lot of ice cream, the economy would fall apart quite quickly.

I'm not sure it's going to work. So a council of regents are ruling on his behalf. But presumably this is not a stable regime. No. People died much earlier in that time, like maybe 40 or 50 years old, so they had to mature really quickly. So five years then, maybe 10, 12 years old? I mean, still. My wife has a 12-year-old cousin.

I think he's great. I think he's very, very clever. He's very sharp and everything. Would I entrust him with all of Japan? Perhaps not. clever, he's very sharp and everything. Would I entrust him with all of Japan? Perhaps not. Okay, so the five-year-old is the new Shogun, but not really. A council is put in charge and one of the members of that council is a rival of Hideyoshi. That's right. Yeah, one of the regions was Tokugawa Ieyasu. Sorry, I can't pronounce

Japanese names properly. But anyway, he was a former rival of Hideyoshi and long story short, he decided that he wanted power for himself. So he thought that he was more qualified to unify Japan than anyone else. Looking back, he was right. So yeah, in 1600, at the Battle of Sekigahara, Ieyasu sort of destroyed a force that's loyal to the Toyodomi family. I don't think that there's a lot of backing yourself that goes into it when you're just saying, I reckon I could nail this better than a five-year-old. Like, if someone said to me that they didn't think they could do that, I'd be like, you've got a confidence

problem. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm not talking like American levels of self-confidence or that sort of thing. Let's not get out of hand. But you've got to believe in yourself a bit, you know? That's true. Yeah. So he wins the Battle of Sekigahara in 1600. Sekigahara, yeah. And that is the big win that establishes the beginnings of the Edo shogunate? Yeah, in 1603 he was actually named the shogun. The official title was Seitaishogun by the

emperor. So that sort of granted him legitimacy to govern the country. And this is when we start the Edo period, 1603. Yeah, sort of official. Yeah. I have to say, Sat Satana you mentioned the emperor he sounds like he should be in charge surely emperor outranks Shogun. Well emperor didn't actually have any sort of political power he was mostly politically aloof so kind of out of this sort of you know government business. Right okay so Tokugawa Yasu, named Shogun, he is the first Shogun of our period, of the Edo period. Ahir, do you know what it translates to? Literally in English, Shogun?

I don't know. Or say Taishōgun, that's the official title. You should know this. I should know what? You should know this, Aya, come on. It's like, the way that you said that made it fit. I briefly queried whether you had personally taught me Japanese in the past. You said it with the authority of my mum when I miss a bit of grammar in Gujarati or something. It was like, what are you doing?

How did I raise you? What's going on here? No, so I think shogun, maybe that just means like warlord or something, I don't know. That's pretty good. That's a good sensible guess. The official translation would be barbarian subduing general. Nice.

What a succinct language. Or you could even say barbarian subduing generalissimo. Oh, nice. Classy. So Ahir, obviously you've said that you haven't yet conquered Japan and you don't plan to, but if you did conquer Japan, what would you want to be known as? What's your go-to title? I would want to be called the barbarian subduing general, but I would want to be like, in English. So some people had to say the full phrase to me every time. Obviously I would learn Japanese following my conquest of Japan, but I might even do it as prep. I don't know. But yeah, I think that the full title, just to really feel the weight of it.

Satana, who were these barbarians who needed subduing? So in medieval times, barbarians were on the northern frontier and they're called Emishi. And that is, there's some sort of link with Ainu people I don't know whether you know Ainu people it's the indigenous people in Japan so today's you know you know today's Hokkaido but not necessarily identical about this title about Bering sub-jun general was a temporary title given by the Emperor to the rulers or generals going on northern campaign. So it was not necessarily a lifetime title or hereditary. Then in the 12th century when Minamoto no Yoritomo established

the Kamakura Bakufu or Kamakura Shogunate and became the Shogun, the title gained more like a connotations of leader of the military class and de facto ruler. Tokugawa Ieyasu was not the first Shogun as you know like we explained but he was the first Shogun of all Japan. Right. Yeah. Okay so that's a distinction so we talk about Tokugawa Ieyasu as the first Shogun to control all of what we call Japan so that's been Shoguns before, but it was a divided country or they were sort of rival. Yeah. Okay. They're fighting with each other for a hundred years. So basically he unified the country. What is the relationship

between Shogun and Emperor then? Because we now have a supremely powerful military leader. But what is the Emperor's power? Does he have power? Yes, so the Emperor's capital was in Kyoto and so he lived in Kyoto, in the castle in Kyoto, and then Shogun's capital was in Edo. But Edo was the political and administrative center of Japan, so during the Edo period, Emperor had an important symbolic role, but he was essentially a prisoner in his palace. They are not allowed to step outside of their palace. The historical record shows only a handful of visits, most of them just visiting their own parents. They weren't even allowed to take a walk. Yeah, easily. So the shogun had to keep him happy as the legitimizer of the political power.

Because, you know, legitimation was very, very important to Japanese at the time, and I guess today as well. But also control and restricted the Emperor via the law. Whatever power Emperor had was something like he could conduct court rituals, and also he could bestow court ranks of the samurai classes, something like that. So he was given by him by the law. That's not bad! Satana, you mentioned the samurai, you've mentioned a couple of people. Actually, who are the social groups in society at this time? We have the elite groups, don't we? So we should we start with them? Yeah, yeah, so society was divided into basically four social classes

So you have the samurai elites and then you have peasants Artisans and merchants and you know at the top of the elite group were the Daimyo the feudal lords Who are rulers of domains or Han in Japanese and the number of domains sort of fluctuated, but they are about 260 by the end of the period. And they autonomously governed these domains or Han. But every alternate year they had to live in Edo and their families were essentially hostages of the Tokugawa to ensure their loyalty to the shogunate. So the family had to stay in Edo. And the Fuyuro Lord, they had to sort of travel between their own domain and Tokyo. Sorry, not Tokyo, Edo.

There really is a lot of holding families hostage going on. What I love about this show is that you start to pick up themes. We do love a hostage. We did one last week with Robert Bruce. Oh it is. We love a hostage situation in this show. The Daimyo are kind of regional rulers then, is that fair? That's right. Domain rulers. Domain. Han. So this kind of carrot and stick strategy was called San-Kin-Kotai and was introduced by the third shogun Tokugawa

Iemitsu. But it was kind of a clever way of controlling people I would say. You could divide Daimyo, the feudal lords, into sort of broadly three categories. So, Shinpan who were Tokugawa family and relatives and then Fudai Daimyo, that's Tokugawa's closest allies, even before the Battle of Sekigahara in 1600, if you remember that. And then, Tozama Daimyo, they're like former enemies who allied with Tokugawa after the Battle of Sekigahara. From my point of view, growing up, I knew a lot about ninjas and samurai, but actually, I didn't really.

Yeah. You know, so what do you think of when you think of samurai? Yeah. So I mean, I think the image that the image is the image that everyone has in their head, you know, like the armor and the swords and these sorts of things. I think that it's like a hereditary thing or a family thing. So it's like, it's sort of like nobility, I guess, has worked in lots of places historically where there's like a hereditary, it's linked to like your family or house or whatever, but it comes with its own set of particular duties, but also its own particular set of privileges, such as basically being able to do whatever you want to anyone who isn't a samurai. Satana, is that a good summary?

I guess, yes. I mean, they were elites. They're not commoners, right? But they're not rich. Where do they sit in the wealth-power ratio index? Well, power and wealth don't necessarily go into hand-to-hand but especially towards the end but the hierarchy was that the the Samurai class that's the elites that's at the top like maybe six seven percent of the population and then we have peasants, artisans and marchants and they are actually registered as commoners so they're the commoners and samurai basically means warriors but Edo samurai are different to how they are thought of now because you know

at the time of peace they don't fight right? Right. Yeah and then they're often sort of administrators who are like paid salary in you know with rice stipends so they're like salaryman. So you just become a civil servant My wife's a samurai? Amazing! They're just slicing their way through mountains of paperwork Also this is all very much making me think you know those memes where people are like

ah imagine like you know you're back in the Roman Empire and you're like a general who's leading everyone into battle and like getting great glory and everything. And I'm like, no, absolutely, you're a subsistence farmer who dies in their mid-30s of an illness that would be immediately curable in the contemporary world. And so anytime I hit like, oh, and this is what the Daimyo did and the Shogun did and the samurai did. I'm just like, right, am I a peasant and artisan or a merchant? It's one of the three. There's no way. Yeah, so artisans are craftspeople. They're making things. Peasants are farmers and then merchants are selling. Yeah, so merchants were like merchants really, yeah. So officially at the bottom

of this, you know, hierarchy, the social system. But, you know, they're often sort of despised for handling money. I don't know why people do that. I like money. We can't do anything with money. I mean, I don't love it, but you need it. You're telling me. I'm being paid 8,000 pounds to be on this. Oh, really? You get more than me. But in reality though, many became very, very rich and very wealthy, and they sort of started to exert power and influence towards the end of the Tokka, you know, because the commerce and transportation develop and they have more jobs, right? But samurai, on the other hand, especially lower ranking samurai, they became very,

very impoverished towards the end. But they had to sometimes pretend that they had money. Even though they're like really, really hungry, they had to pretend that they were full by like sort of using toothpicks to say, oh yeah, I'm full, but actually they are starving. Right, but it's not to lose face. Yeah, something like that. Let's talk more about how, you know, we talked about 80% of the population of peasants.

Who's paying taxes? How do taxes work? He's already mentioned taxes. How does that system work? Because domains were governed autonomously. Tax taxes were also paid at the regional or village level. So villagers, leaders, they had to be educated, you know, they should be able to be good at math and they should be able to read. So they became really educated. And in fact, education and literacy rates increased across the period. And the different dates showed sort of different numbers but the literacy rate was somewhere between 50 to 70 percent. Wow that's really high. Yeah it's pretty high I mean even the lowest is 50% maybe 40-50 I don't know I mean I can't sort of determine what is right but

it's pretty good isn't it? Yeah, compared to the other parts of the world, it's pretty good, but then, of course, males' rate was higher than females. Like elite men studied classical Chinese, like samurai, their literacy rate was really high, obviously. But whereas lower classes learned hiragana, the, you know, the phonetic writing system, I don't know whether you know the Japanese system, but yeah, yeah. And the population too, between 1600 and 1720, something like that, was estimated to have doubled, but later in the period, the population growth sort of stagnated, so it sort of stopped. It plummeted every time farming hit Japan. Three big ones during

the period. The tempo farming lasted for about several years and everybody was starving and so many people dead. Mason. Yeah, I think it's also super interesting that there was sort of class stratification on what sort of script you would use. So if it's like commoners have a particular alphabet and it's just like really weird to think that think that if you're a basic rate taxpayer, you can only use Comic Sans. But if you're a higher rate taxpayer, you get Times New Roman. And there's Garamond for additional rate. Oh, Garamond for the daimyo.

Yeah, yeah, only the daimyo. That's really interesting. But Satana that's not an hour you said in the second half of the Edo period, which we're saying is 265 years. Yeah. In the second half of that period, the economic sort of patterns, they change and there's a sort of decrease in population or there's a slowdown. What happens at that time then? So it's because of this, you you know development of commerce and transportation it was really kind of really vigorous and of course it depends on the region but some countryside industries really really

flourished you know like sake. You like sake? I like sake. Yeah, I love sake. And silk and cotton and ceramics and things like that so it was really really vibrant. Many of these workers in the country size were females actually but some were more sort of fortunate than others you know some depending on their economic situation the fortunate ones had better options like becoming managers and things but those with contract work sometimes led to young women leaving home to work in a seasonal or long-term workers, something like that. So that was life in the rural areas, I think. We heard there were issues with the economy slowing down and the rise of wage labour. Ahir, I want to turn to you and ask you about

city life, actually. So what do you imagine of the Edo period and the cities in Japan at this time? Again, I'm going off a documentary that I recently watched, but I think that if you were, let's just say, at random, a 17th century naval explorer who landed from England on a Dutch ship, you would be really struck by both the size and cleanliness of the cities relative to those you were used to in your native Europe. I think that's a very fair answer. And of course, that is, I mean, the character in the show is not a real character, but it's based on a real guy, William Adams. So there

was an English pilot who arrived in Japan. We call this the Edo period because of Edo the city, which was huge wasn't it Satana? Yeah I mean the city was really growing and the samurai became mostly city residents and things and not just Edo but Osaka, Kyoto were growing as well. But like you said the biggest of all is Edo, which was originally a really small castle town, but by 1720, early 1700s, had already reached a population of one million, apparently. Yeah, this marked the largest city in the world at the time by population. Tokyo still is the largest. And Osaka was the biggest commercial hub, of course, you

know, with many rich rice merchants and things. But there was a shift later in the period to rural industries, which led to the declining economic power of some urban areas. And there's a period also a little bit of moral crisis? Towards the end, yeah, because you can sort of see the visible collapse of the Tokugashogunate and also things become really sort of blurred, you know, the boundaries. So sometimes I didn't mention this outcast group of Eta-Hinin, you know, they kind of sort of started to pretend like commoners, rich commoners with like many concubines and things. And so that was

sort of possible then towards the end. Yeah. I mean, economic decline, boo. But I don't know anything about the history of economics, so I'm going to move on to the stuff that I like. Yeah, I'm not an economist either. And that's why you're not being paid £8,000 to hear. So let's talk more about culture and entertainment in Edo Japan. What do you think are the go-to cultural kind of touchstones that people respect and admire. Huge theatrical tradition in Japan for sure. Musical tradition, poetic tradition, everything.

So I would say those would be three of my guesses. Excellent guesses. Satana, let's talk about theatre. So Edo culture was really really, especially those things like theatre, but mainly sort of three major things. So, Kabuki, you might know. It is a traditional theatre with a dramatic performance with dance, and then Bunraku, that's a puppet theatre, involving like two thirds life-size puppets controlled by three men, with musicians and singer actions, you know, chanting and narration. And then Noh, do you know? No? No, I don't. It was like you said musical. It was like

a, like a musical, but less lively and not lively, less, I don't know, nosy. I don't know. But anyway, so it's like a musical. Performers wear like masks and sings and dance to musical instruments. And history or patronage of Noh theatre went right back to Hideyoshi. Meaning it was closely embedded with the lives of the elites since Daimyo are often expected to patronise the arts. Yeah and they had they often had theatres in their own palaces and houses. That's right. Yeah exactly. Some even perform themselves. Oh wow okay. And how long does a play last? Is it two hours with an intermission? Well it could be two hours but sometimes it could last for days. That's too much culture. If somebody loves

it so much. Did you know that it's 50 years this week since Richard Nixon became the first US President in history to resign from office? To mark this monumental moment, Witness History brings you five programs about influential events in US Presidential history. And with all the amazing twists and turns in the current race for the White House, what a time to bring you them. You'll hear about the closest US election in history, and from the man who was in the current race for the White House, what a time to bring you them. You'll hear about the closest US election in history and from the man who was in the

Situation Room during the raid on Osama Bin Laden. That's Witness History from the BBC World Service. Listen and subscribe wherever you get your BBC podcasts. So the fifth Shogun is called Tokugawa Tosonoyoshi. Tsunayoshi. Thank you. Sorry. Sorry.

He was a huge fan of Noh Theatre. That's right. But he was also a big fan of something else. He was called the Dog Shogun. Do you know why? I'm gonna go right ahead and guess he was into dogs. He was! It was a pretty straightforward nickname and guess he was into dogs. He was It's a pretty straightforward nickname

He's really into dogs. He passed animal rights legislation So he's really like protected animals, which is quite rare I think in history we don't normally in the 17th century people are killing animals horribly So that's quite interesting But he loved theater and it led him to do some quite unconventional things. You mentioned before, Ahir, about samurai being people becoming samurai. Satana, he loved theatre so much that he gave actors samurai status. Yeah, to nearly like 100 actors something. So that he could keep near them, you know, so they could just perform whenever he wanted. And that was really, really unprecedented, you know, it's a huge deal, isn't it? Yeah.

Yeah. But I mean, because, you know, actors often sometimes despised in socially, but he kind of raised that. It's not stopped. It's global. Actors or performers, I would say. Particularly comedians. I hate comedians. They're the worst. So the dog Shogun apparently performed a note dance for his mother on her deathbed. I mean, it feels like an awkward situation.

My favourite fact about Sonoyoshi, the only thing I knew about him before this podcast, is that he accidentally had a very nice chat with one of the merchants that Satana was telling us about, one of these very rich people from low status. And he was chatting to them thinking they were nobles. He got incredibly furious about it and passed laws banning ordinary people, commoners from wearing the beautiful kimono patterns, gorgeous silks and robes. He made them only wear simple cosadet robes. He made them only wear simple cosy day robes. So very simple. So it's called a sumptuary law. It's a fashion law. But Ahir, do you know how people got around this ban?

So the ban that they couldn't wear particular patterns. Yeah. On the, did they like, just like tilt them 45 degrees or something like that? So it's not like walk with a slight, slightly to one side? It's a good guess. Now what they did apparently is they would wear their beautiful clothes underneath, they'd wear their simple corset over the top, and then they would flash their friends with the good stuff.

Just open up the robe, a little flash, look at that, look what I got. And then wrap it back up. So what is like basically like a Primark jumper and like what like, but then underneath it you've got this like shirt made of gold. Okay so there we go, so they're flashing the mates. So alongside theatre, alongside clandestine fashion crimes, what other arts and cultural activities are important in Edo Japan, Satana? A visual art I want to think about. Yeah, so woodblock printing became very popular because it could sort of publish literature and art very cheaply and mass, so this rising commercial printing coincided with the rising

literacy rates as well. And in terms of art, the most significant is ukiyo-e. You might have heard of it, like it's literally translated as floating world pictures, which is historically, culturally, and you know, artistically very, very significant, you know, because historically due to mass production, people were able to access easily and cheaply. And also, you know, they could preserve traditional culture like this too. And culturally, it made it possible to have a vivid glimpse into Edo culture. You know, people can see that from fashion, like you said, to ledger activities like Kabuki and sumo wrestling and tea house and all the

brothels. Right. Artistically speaking, you know, Kyuyo-e achieved remarkably sort of detailed and vibrant colours and complex competitions and had a huge impact on Western artists in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. So that style, you said ukiyo-e, is that right? Ukiyo-e. Ukiyo-e. Yes.

And we call them floating world pictures, which is a beautiful phrase. Is that right? Ukiyo-e. Ukiyo-e. Ukiyo-e, yes. Okay. And we call them floating world pictures, which is a beautiful phrase. We can show you one out here. You've probably seen it before, because it's a very famous image. It's called the Great Wave over Kanagawa. It's by an artist called Hokusai. What I like to do is I wear a t-shirt with that on it, and then underneath the t-shirt I have the actual woodblock.

You're getting around the Sumtuary Law in the best possible way. I mean for listeners who don't know this piece of art, it's an incredibly famous piece of art. It's on laptop screens, it's on covers, university bedrooms if you want to show off to your mates that you're cultured. It's a beautiful, gorgeous blue and white wave. It's almost a sort of tidal wave isn't it, but it's such a distinctive image. And Hokusai is representative of this art form, is that fair? Yeah, definitely. But also probably Unicodal produces t-shirts like this too. So that slightly brings us on actually to something I wanted to bring up next actually

is Edo Japan's relationship with the wider world. Because obviously Japan is a series of islands. Ahir, what do you know of Japan's attitude towards foreign traders and missionaries in this time? Ahir Kishore My understanding was that basically during the Tokugawa Shogunate, with the exception of like certain sort of naval trading relationships with, I guess, like China and Korea, pretty much cut off from the rest of the world, intentionally self cut off from the rest of the world until the major restoration. But I don't know if that's true. That's just...

Very close. Yes. It's very... Yeah, it's correct. Really Really. Yes, Tokugawa Japan had a very sort of limited diplomatic relation with the Dutch, the Chinese and the Koreans. So that gender Chinese they were sort of kind of merchants basically were confined to this little man-made fun sort of fun-shaped island called Dejima near Nagasaki and the Korean through the Tsushima domain. Japan traded with the Portuguese and the Spaniards and allowed missionary activities but some daimyo in southern parts of Japan were Christians too and rulers including Hideyoshi and Ieyasu restricted missionary activities and between 16th century and 33th and 39th Tokugawa Ieyamitsu also issued a series of regulations including prohibiting Japanese people

from leaving Japan and coming back to Japan, things like that. He also banned the export of weapons and the teaching of Christianity in Japan. But the massive rebellion in the Christian stronghold of Shimabara in 1637-68 was like the last straw. It was a combination of economic religious factors, but from 1639 onwards Japan adopted this national seclusion policy. But that does not mean that Japan was completely isolated, Satana. The idea here is that it's not like they shut the door and trapped out the world. They didn't stop the world getting in, did they? Well yeah I mean not entirely but for one they had the that trading

connections right like and the Chinese but only the Baku who had the right to trade. The Baku who means the shogunate so it's the military government controlled by the shogun you know no no other Japanese were not allowed so you might have this perception that Edo Japan was closed off completely or isolated, but they're actually very much aware of what was going on in the rest of the world, they as in the Bakufu. For example, the English couldn't reestablish trade relations because the Japanese knew that King Charles II had married a Portuguese princess. Ah yes, Catherine of princess. Ah, yes.

Catherine of Braganza, yeah. And this policy of semi-isolation held until the end of the period, towards the 1850s. Ah, do you know who turned up in the 1850s knocking on Japan's door? It was I. I have lived in this world long before any of you and will be here long after. Normally on this show the default answer is the British Empire.

That's normally what happens, about 80%. Weirdly on this one, it's America. Yeah, the United States. Which I was not expecting. The Americans show up in the 1850s and it's a guy by the name of Commodore Matthew Perry, not the beloved actor from Friends. 1853, tell me the story, Satana.

Yeah, so Commodore Matthew Perry, his black ship arrived at the Edo Bay in 1853. So the main objective is to open Japan to American trade, obviously. The US wanted new markets across to Japanese, to access to Japanese call and also secure a safe base for its whaling ships and also establishing presence in Japan was, you know, strategically very important as one of the rising imperial powers, right? I mean, America was still a young sort of, so Perry persuaded the Baku whose representatives that it would be better for Japan to sign a treaty with America than the British. You know, you know how much damage the British Empire inflicted on China, you

know, the open wars and things, right? Listen, as a British Indian man, it's something that I have a passing familiarity with, and there are complex historical reasons between this face and this voice. Okay, ah here we've got a picture actually we can show you. This is by an unknown artist. It's one of Matthew Perry's ships. Would you like to describe it for us? It's black. Black ship. Right. I would describe the vibe as off. I would describe it as a general, like, its butt looks sad. I don't know what the butt of a ship is called, but you know what I mean, like the back bit of the ship. And then the ship has a face, but the face has a big horn

like a narwhal. But a man's face who does not look like... he looks pleased but in a bad way. Evil. Yeah, evil pleased. It's a beautiful image but it does not suggest to me that Matthew Perry from Friends is being friendly here. This is a depiction of a suspicious foreign power, Satana. Well, that's the perception at the time. And once the Americans are sort of through the door, Britain are like, well, can we come

in? You've done a deal with them and we're good at empires too. So the British, who else, Satana? Yeah, so all the big boys, you know, the British, the French and the Dutch and, you know, Prussian and sort of Russian also sent ships, you know, these imperial powers with the capital P. Normally when one imperial power signed a treaty, more specifically in this, it is treaty meaning an equal treaty, others followed. Ahir, if you were the government of the Shogunate of Japan, how would you respond to this influx of Western powers waving treaties in your face?

You can really imagine someone standing to the side just being like, I did tell you that if you gave one, they'd all want one. Right? And what's happened? What's happened? The Ahir shagunate is very much one of saying, I told you so. Is that right? No, no, no. In this I'm the sort of like slightly harried shogun being like, I get it, I get it, all right. I'm trying to be a barbarian suppressing general here. Satana, the really interesting thing is that the shogunate at this stage consults the emperor, who for 250 years has been sort of, you know, over there somewhere in Kyoto. But suddenly the shogun consults the emperor for his advice? Yeah, because they panicked.

You know, it's like a national crisis, right? Yeah, that's why they consulted the emperor, which is technically unnecessary. And because, you know, he was unprecedented too, because up till then, it was only a handful of Tokka counselors who had the say in national policies, you know, like running national policies. And this act of asking backfired majorly for the shogunate, because Emperor at the time was Komei, Komei, Tenno Komei, he said no, you should just fulfill your duty as barbarian subduing general. But in 1858, sorry, the shogunate gave in to pressure and signed an

equal treaty with America without imperial approval. So that sort of angered many samurai loyalists, leading to this movement called Sonno-Joi movement, Undo, that means... and Sonno is revered emperor, expelled barbarian movement. Oh, good name for a movement. Yeah, it is, isn't it? Two different policies in one movement. I like that. Yeah. It was not anti-Bakufu movement to start with, but that sort of radically, you know, becoming anti-Bakufu too, over time. Yeah. Because the Shogun, his job title is subduing the barbarian, you know, and he hasn't done any subduing. And so we've got all these domestic issues now in the 1860s, Satana. We have foreigners showing up, but there's also problems internally in Japan as well. Yeah so some of the domestic issues actually started before the bakufu's sort of inadequate I would say foreign policy. As mentioned the commoners were

already hugely dissatisfied with the shogunate, their handling of farming and things like that but the opening of Japan sort of impacted the Japanese economy massively, you know, like importing foreign goods and exporting large amounts of gold and things like that. So that kind of upset the balance. The Shogunate tried to resolve this by revaluing the currency, but that led to massive inflation and the price rise, etc. So there are like uprisings everywhere. So we've got famines, angry peasants in the countryside, angry people in the cities, a bunch of foreign countries parking their warships on Japan's front lawn. Ahir, how would you solve this in the Ahir shagunate? I'm gonna keep using that,

sorry I'm very happy with it. I would just be like, do you know what? 260 is a good run. Like, do you know what? 260 is a good run. Like, how many things last that long? Other than I, who of course was around in the 1850s and continued to be. But America's like nearly 250 years old? Let's see how that goes. You'd say more just sort of polite like farewell thanks very much you ever go? No no I don't think that I would do that. You've got to stand up you've got to stand your ground.

Okay good I mean Satana we're coming towards the the Meiji restoration which I hear is already mentioned actually so do you want to talk us through the lead up to that? Yeah so the major restoration of 1868 that brought an end to the Shogunate obviously because of a combination of internal external factors but before that there's also you know ongoing conflicts over the succession of the Shogunate between I Na Osuke and Samurai Daimyo who wanted a 12 year old Tokugai Yoshitomi and Shimazu, so the rivalry between the Iina Osuke and then Shimazu Nariyakira and Adatozama Daimyo who wanted Hitotsubashi Yoshinobu. So it was a bit of a fight going on there and the 12 year old Yoshitomi was put forward because he would be controlled by the chief councillor, you know, it would be more easy. Did no one go, this whole thing started because someone tried to put a baby in charge?

Maybe let's not do that. Five was too young, but maybe 12 is just right. 12 at the time is maybe 30 years old today, so it's okay. I'm 33 years old and while I don't think that I'm, you know, like the most exception, I'm sure that 33 years from now I hope to look back at myself now and think like, oh, he didn't know anything, etc. But I think I know more than like a 12-year-old in the 1860s. I don't feel arrogant saying that. I think it's fine. But your point, Satana, is that he's a puppet who can be controlled. Well, I would not say puppet for Emperor, you know, my Japanese DNA.

Okay, okay, good, sorry. Manipulate it, manipulate. Well, same thing. Yeah, okay, so they do they choose the 12 year old then? Is that the decision? Yes, yes, but the other one also became the, so the 12 year old was the 14th Shogun, but the other one became the,th shogun anyway. So it was just a matter of timing really. There's a purge of opponents, there's a purge of samurai, and we get an assassination, don't we, in 1860? Yeah, so this Iinaosuke, the guy who pushed the 12 year old guy, now he is renamed to be the Tokugai Iemochi, he was purged. Not just because of that but because he signed the unequal treaty as well so there are lots of angers

around there. So, assassination, so things are going really wrong because we're back to the political violence we started our story with really. And you've got ongoing conflicts, a foreigner is murdered in Japan? Yes, yes, yes. Englishman actually. Oh dear. Because he upset the procession of the Daimyo. So, you know, he was killed. So by 1866 the Shogunate military forces, it's going really wrong for them. And when is the major restoration? 1860? January the 3rd, 1868. Yes, that's when the raw ranking samurai from Satsuma, Choshu,

Hizen and Gosh, Satsuma, Choshu, Hizen and Tosa, sorry, my students who have a go at me. And together with certain progressive courtiers, you know, from the courts, they decided to carry out this coup d'etat, like a really peaceful coup d'etat, it's just a sort of discussion but coup d'etat, that, you know, the Meiji Emperor, the 16-year-old, getting older, Meiji Emperor is the new sovereign and they established this imperial rule. So the Meiji Rest restoration was in 1868. Okay, so the shogun steps down, the emperor steps up. It's the endo of the edo. It's done. Mission accomplished. 265 years. Edo period. Completed it, mate. The nuanced window!

The nuance window! Okay, well, that's been a fascinating chat. It's time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Ahiru and I set down our samurai swords and we sit quietly with our rice bowl for two minutes while Dr. Satana takes centre stage to tell us something we need to know about Edo Japan. Without much further ado... It's very incredible how long the Edo period lasted, like you said, 260 years. And Edo Japan thrived due to political stability and economic growth and also cultural development. Political stability was maintained through the, I'd say,

effective governance of the Tokugawa Shogunate, you know, this, you know, carrot and stick strategy and granting autonomy while implementing the hostage system. So I thought it was quite clever. The Shogunate maintained contact with the rest of the world through the Dutch and Chinese, albeit in a sort of passive manner. So that sort of indicated that Edo Japan was still part of the international community, you could say. But while some may argue that Edo Japan was sort of technologically, culturally and intellectually limited and sort of susceptible to external pressure because of this long period of isolation, you can see the flourishing arts, crafts and technologies

during the Edo period. And you know, they're amazing. So that's just otherwise. And personally, I'm more drawn to the cultural aspects of the period, you know, like ukiyo-e and literature, especially ghost stories. I recommend that. You should just read that. It's great. And also theater, you know, these are like still vital components of Japanese culture

today. For example, I don't know whether I can say this, but I'm a huge fan of manga, you know, the comic, Japanese comic. Do you read this? I don't know. But I still read a lot of them and spend far too much so sorry on that. Because you know, whenever I come across references of Edo culture, which you see a lot, it often amazes me how much Edo culture still impacts

Japan today. Go and read manga. Beautiful. Thank you so much. So what do you know now? know now? Well it's time now for our quickfire quiz for Ahir to see. Not feeling confident about this one Greg? This is the so what do you know now? This is our quickfire quiz for Ahir to see much he's learnt. Somehow Ahir you are averaging 9.75 on previous two appearances. Can you get 10 out of 10 today? That's the key question.

Here we go, we got 10 questions. Question one, who was the first shogun of all of Japan from 1603? That was Tokugawa Ieyasu. Very good, there we go, so he's straight in. Question two, what does the term shogun actually mean in English? Barbarian subduing generalissimo. It does. The fancy virgin. Question three,

in what year did the Edo period start? Did the Edo period start? I sort of thought that it was, yeah, I thought that it was 1603 just because that was when he became, oh right. It is, absolutely 1603, same year as the Stuart era over here. Question four, what nickname was given to the fifth Shogun Tokugawa Tsunayoshi, who banned posh robes for commoners, loved theater, and was into his animals? Yeah, that's Dog Shogun. Dog Shogun, which would be a great cartoon. I want to see a Dog Shogun who is a dog.

Anyway, question five. Name two non-elite social classes in Edo Japan. There were merchants and artisans and peddlers. Very good, and warriors as well. But yeah, excellent. classes in Edo Japan? There were merchants and artisans and peasant. Very good and warriors as well. Excellent. Question 6. What is the name of the type of printed art that became popular in Edo Japan?

I think that they were like floating world but I can't remember the Japanese term unfortunately. I believe it was Ukiyo-e? That's perfect actually. Ukiyo-e, yes. Thank you. I will take that. Question seven, name one of the three types of major theater in Edo Japan.

Kabuki. You could have had Bunraku and Noh. Question eight, what was the one European country that was allowed to trade with Edo Japan after the Portuguese and Christian missionaries were booted out? It was the Dutch. It was, the Netherlands.

Question nine. Which American led the black ships that came to Japan in 1853? It was Commodore Matthew Perry. It is. Your friend and mine. And question ten. What was the name of the event that marked the end of the Tokugawa Shogunate in 1868? It was the Meiji Restoration. Ten out of ten. Never in doubt. Well done out here. You've broken your decimalised curse. Well done, Aheer. You've broken your decimalised curse. Well done and thank you, Satana, for that wonderful lesson. Thank you. That was really enjoyable. Listener, if after today's episode you want more from Aheer,

we've got our episodes on the rise of Julius Kaiser and the Indus Civilisation. And for a different East Asian story, try our episode on Tang Dynasty China. That's a medieval story which I enjoyed very much. And remember, if you've enjoyed enjoyed the podcast please leave a review, share the show with friends, subscribe to Your Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode. But it's time to just say thank you to our guests in History Corner. We have the sensational Dr Satana Suzuki from Soas. Thank you Satana. Thank you so much. I had a great fun. Yeah, it was real fun. And in Comedy Corner we have the always amazing Ahir Shah. Thank

you Ahir. Thank you. And to you lovely listeners, join me next time as we restore another topic to its rightful place in history. But for now, I'm off to go and stage a revival of Shogun the Musical, because every Shogun needs showtunes. Bye! This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by Annabelle Storr. It was written by Annabelle Storr, Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Nagoos and me, the audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Ben Hollands. It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Nagoos and our

executive editor was James Cook. Your Dead to Me was a BBC Studios audio production for Radio 4. Hello, it's Simon and David here from When It Hits The Fan and we'd just like to tell you about our bonus series of mini episodes that's coming up over the summer. That's right Simon, Quick Wins is the place where we answer your personal PR questions and share everything we've learned along the way about how to manage your reputation at work. That's right David, we'll be answering some of the questions you've sent us from how to deliver on welcome news, dealing with backstabbers at work and how to be an effective leader.

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