You're Dead to Me - Edo Japan (Radio Edit)

Episode Date: November 15, 2024

In this episode, Greg Jenner is joined in seventeenth-century Japan by Dr Satona Suzuki and comedian Ahir Shah to learn all about the Edo period and the Tokugawa shogunate. When he came to power in 1603, Tokugawa Ieyasu became the first shogun to rule over all Japan. He made Edo – later renamed Tokyo – his power base, and over the 250 years of Tokugawa rule, this small town became one of the largest cities in the world. This episode charts the rise and fall of the shogunate, and explores what life was like for people living in Japan at this time. From politics to theatre, and taking in foreign relations, the class system, art and literature, Greg and his guests get to grips with all aspects of life in the Edo period.This is a radio edit of the original podcast episode. For the full-length version, please look further back in the feed.Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Annabel Storr Written by: Annabel Storr, Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: James Cook

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello and welcome to your dead to me the radio for comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Janna. I'm a public historian author and broadcaster and today we are boarding our black ships and sailing back to 17th century Japan to learn all about life in the Edo period and to help us distinguish our cost of day from Aki Mono. We have two very special guests in History Corner. She's a lecturer in both Japanese and Modern Japanese

History at SOAS, University of London. It's Dr Satana Suzuki. Welcome, Satana. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here today. We're very excited to have you. And in Comedy Corner, he's a stand-up comedian, writer and the winner of the Edinburgh Festival Comedy Award 2023. Maybe you've heard him on Radio 4, but you'll definitely remember him from our episodes about Julius Caesar, Julius Kaiser, or the Indus Civilisation. It's Ahir Shah. Welcome back, Ahir. Hello, thank you very much for having me back. I'm very excited about this. When I asked if you wanted to do this show, your face lit up with a frenzied zeal I've not seen before. I was first asked about this when I just finished watching Shogun

And was listening to the audiobook or in fact I may well have been listening to the audiobook when I first got an email about it So I was like right. I Definitely know everything about this topic based on what I'm sure was a documentary I recently watched So I think we can say we've got two experts in the room today, which is very exciting. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And for listeners outside of Japan, I suspect chances are the answer is not very much, much

like me. Maybe you've seen the Keanu Reeves historical blockbuster, 47 Ronin, maybe you're a video game fan and you've played Shogun Total War, my fave. But most likely you'll know the recent TV series that I have mentioned already, Shogun. It's based on the novel by James Clavell, which lightly fictionalizes the foundation of the Tokugawa Shogunate.

And if you're a real Shogun head, maybe you saw the short-lived 1990 musical, also based on Clavell's novel. But what's the true story behind this brilliant TV show? What did samurai really get up to? Let's find out. Right, ah here, when did the Edo period start? Is Edo the sort of name that was given to what we now call Tokyo? Was called Edo at the time. I'm going to go 1647. Well, the show is set in 1600 and as a satan, we start the dynasty a tiny bit later. We started the same year that in England or Britain we start the Stuart era, 1603. So how long is the Edo period? Why do we start it there?

So the Edo period lasted from 1603, so that's when Tokugawa Ieyasu was appointed Shogun by the Emperor, to 1867, that's when Tokugawa Yoshinobu, that's the last Shogun, returned the land and registered to the Emperor. So 260 years, something like that. I'm not really good at math, but something like 260 years. So it's a long time, right? And this is a time of warfare, instability, this is not a peaceful era? No it's not. The Edo period was preceded by a period of constant warfare and instability

for about 100 years but then between 1560 and 1582 Oda Nobunaga, that's one of my favorite historical figures. He was one of the warring state daimyō, and he sort of used force to extend control over two-thirds of Japan. Unfortunately, one of his subordinates, Akechi Mitsuhide, he assassinated Oda Nobunaga in 1582 and after that his other subordinate Toyotomi Hideyoshi, he rose to power. So Hideyoshi conquered Japan in 1590, died in 1598, who takes over from him then? Toyotomi Hideyori, that's Toyotomi Hideyoshi's five year old son, so he was left in charge but he was managed by a group of

five regents. I am very, very unlikely to conquer Japan. However, if I did, and eight years later I died and de jure if not de facto rule passed to my five-year-old son, I would be so gutted. Do you know what I mean? Like, after all this effort, like, only eight years would suck. So the five-year-old is the new Shogun, but not really. A council is put in charge, and one of the members of that council is a rival of Hideyoshi. That's right. Yeah. One of the regions was Tokugawa Ieyasu. He thought that he was

more qualified to unify Japan than anyone else. You know, looking back, he was right. So yeah, in 1600, at the Battle of Sekigahara, Ieyasu sort of destroyed the forces loyal to the Toyodomi family. And that is the big win that establishes the beginnings of the Edo Shogunate. Yeah. In 16 1603 he was actually named a shogun. Okay, so Tokugawa Yasu, named Shogun, he is the first shogun of our period, of the Edo period. Ahir, do you know what it translates to in English? Shogun. I don't know. Or Sei-tai-shogun, that's the official title. You should know this.

I should know what? You should know this, Aya, come on. It's like, the way that you said that, I briefly queried whether you had personally taught me Japanese in the past. And you said it with the authority of my mum when I miss a bit of grammar in Gujarati or something. It was like, what are you doing? How did I raise you? Shogun maybe that just means like warlord or something. I don't know. That's a good sensible guess. The official translation would be barbarian subduing general.

Nice. What a succinct language. Tokugaiyasu was not the first Shogun, but he was the first Shogun of all Japan. Right. Basically, he unified the country. What is the relationship between Shogun and Emperor then? The Emperor's capital was in Kyoto, and then Shogun's capital was in Edo. But Edo was the political and administrative centre of Japan. So during the Edo period, the emperor had an important symbolic role, but he was essentially a prisoner in his palace. They are not allowed to step outside of their palace.

They weren't even allowed to take a walk. Wow. So the shogun had to keep him happy as the legitimiser of the political power, but also control and restricted the Emperor via the law. Who are the social groups in society at this time? We have the elite groups don't we? So we should we start with them? Yeah so society was divided into basically four social classes so you have the samurai elites and then you have peasants, artisans and merchants and you know at

the top of the elite group were the daimyo, the feudal lords who are rulers of domains or han in Japanese and they're autonomously governed these domains or han but every alternate year they had to live in Edo and their families were essentially hostages of the Tokugawa to ensure their loyalty to the shogunate. So the family had to stay in Edo. From my point of view, growing up I knew a lot about ninjas and samurai but actually I didn't really. So what do you think of when you think of samurai? The image is the image that everyone has in their head, you know, like the

armor and the swords and these sorts of things. I think that it's like a hereditary thing or a family thing. It's linked to like your family or house or whatever but it comes with its own set of particular duties but also its own particular set of privileges such as basically being able to do whatever you want to anyone who isn't a samurai. Satana, is that a good summary? I guess, yes. I mean, they were elites. They're not commoners, right? Samurai basically means warriors, but Edo samurai are different to how they are thought of now,

because, you know, at the time of peace, they don't fight, right? Right. Yeah. And then they're often sort of administrators who are like paid salary with the rice stipends so they're like salary... So you just become a civil servant after a while? Yeah something like that. Oh my god, my wife's a samurai? Amazing! They're just slicing their way through mountains of paperwork. Yeah so artisans are crafts people, they're making things, peasants are farmers and then merchants are selling? Yeah, so merchants are like merchants really, yeah. So officially at the bottom of this

hierarchy, the social system, but they're often sort of despised for handling money. I don't know why people do that. I like money. We can't do anything with money. I mean, I don't love it, but you need it. You're telling me. I'm being paid 8,000 pounds to be honest. Oh, really? You get more than me. But in reality though, many became very, very rich and very wealthy and they sort of started to exert power and influence towards the end of the Tokugawa, you know, because the commerce and transportation develop and they have more jobs, right? But samurai, on the other hand, especially lower ranking samurai, they became very, very impoverished towards the end. And the population too, between 1600 and 1720,

something like that, was estimated to have have doubled but later in the period the population growth sort of stagnated so it sort of stopped. It plummeted every time farming hit Japan. Satana, you said in the second half of the Edo period, which we're saying is 265 years or so, in the second half of that period the economic economic patterns change and there's a decrease in population or there's a slowdown. What happens at that time then? It's because of this development of commerce and transportation, it was really vigorous.

Of course it depends on the region, but some countryside industries really, really flourished, you know, like sake. You like sake? I like sake. Yeah, I love sake. And silk and cotton and ceramics and things like that. So it was really really vibrant. So that was life in the kind of rural areas I think. Ahir, I want to turn to you and ask you about city life actually. So what do you imagine of the Edo period and the cities in Japan at this time? Again, I'm going off a documentary that I recently watched, all right?

But I think that if you were, let's just say, at random, a 17th century naval explorer who landed from England on a Dutch ship, you would be really struck by both the size and cleanliness of the cities relative to those you were used to in your native Europe. I think that's a very fair answer. And of course, that is a, I mean, the character in the show is not a real character, but it's based on a real guy, William Adams. So there was an English pilot who arrived in Japan. This, we call this the Edo period because of Edo the city, which was huge, wasn't it, Satana? Yeah, I mean, the city was really growing

and the samurai became mostly city residents and things. And not just Edo, but Osaka, Kyoto were growing as well. But like you said, the biggest of all is Edo, which was originally a really small castle town, but by 1720, early 1700, had already reached a population of one million apparently. Wow. Yeah, this marked the largest city in the world at the time by population.

Tokyo still is the largest. And Osaka was the biggest commercial hub, of course, with many rich rice merchants and things. There was a shift later in the period of two rural industries which led to the declining economic power of some urban areas. I mean economic decline, boo, but I don't know anything about the history of economics so I'm involved in the stuff that I like. Yeah, I'm not an economist either.

And that's why you're not being paid £8,000 to it. So let's talk more about culture and entertainment in Edo Japan. Ahir, what do you think are the the go-to cultural kind of touchstones that people respect and admire? Huge theatrical tradition, yeah, in Japan for sure. Musical tradition, poetic tradition, those would be three of my guesses. Excellent guesses. Satana, let's talk about theatre. So Edo culture was really thriving, especially those things like theatre, but mainly sort of three major things. So Kabuki, you might know. It is a traditional theatre

with a dramatic performance with dance and then Bunraku, that's a puppet theatre, involving like two thirds life-size puppets controlled by three men, with musicians and singer actions, you know, chanting and narration. And then Noh, do you know? No? No, I don't. So it's like a musical. Performers wear like masks and sinks and dance to musical instruments. And history or patronage of Noh theatre went right back to Hideyoshi, meaning he was closely embedded with the lives of the elites at the time you were often expected to patronize the arts.

And how long does a play last? Is it two hours with an intermission? Well it could be two hours but sometimes it could last for days. That's too much culture. What other arts and cultural activities are important in Edo Japan, Satana? A visual art I want to think about. Yeah, so woodblock printing became very popular because it could sort of publish literature and art very cheaply en masse. So this rising commercial printing coincided with the rising literacy rates as well. And in terms of art the most significant is ukiyo-e. You might have heard of it like it's literally translated as floating world

pictures and culturally it made it possible to have a vivid glimpse into Edo culture. You know people can see that from fashion to ledger activities like kabuki and Sumo wrestling and teahouse and all the brothels. Artistically speaking, you know, Kyuya achieved remarkably sort of detailed and vibrant colours and complex competitions and had a huge impact on western artists. So that slightly brings us on actually to something I wanted to bring up next actually is Edo Japan's relationship with the wider world. Because obviously Japan is a series of islands. Ahir, what do you know of Japan's attitude towards foreign traders and missionaries

in this time? My understanding was that basically during the Tokugawa Shogunate, with the exception of certain sort of naval trading relationships with China and Korea, pretty much cut off from the rest of the world, intentionally self-cut off from the rest of the world until the major restoration? Very close. Yes, it's very, yeah, it's correct really. Yes, Tokugawa Japan had a very sort of limited diplomatic relation with the Dutch, the Chinese and the Koreans. So that gender Chinese, they were sort of kind of merchants basically were confined to this little man-made fun sort

of fun-shaped island called Dejima near Nagasaki and the Koreans through the Tsushima domain. Japan traded with the Portuguese and the Spaniards and allowed missionary activities, but some Damyo in southern parts of Japan were Christians too, and rulers including Hideyoshi and Ieyasu restricted missionary activities in between 16th century and 33 and 39. Tokugawa Iemitsu also issued a series of regulations including prohibiting Japanese people from leaving Japan and coming back to Japan, things like that. He also banned the export of weapons and the teaching of Christianity in Japan.

But the massive rebellion in the Christian stronghold of Shimabara in 1637, 68 was like the last straw. It was a combination of economic religious factors, but from 1639 onwards, Japan adopted this national seclusion policy. But that does not mean that Japan was completely isolated, Satana. The idea here that it's not like they shut the door and trapped out the... They didn't stop the world getting in, did they?

Well, yeah, I mean, not entirely, but for one, they had that trading connections, right? Like in the Chinese. But only the Baku who had the right to trade. The Baku who means the shogunate. So it's the military government controlled by the shogun. So you might have this perception that Edo Japan was closed off completely or isolated, but they're actually very much aware of what was going on

in the rest of the world. And this policy of semi-isolation held until the end of the period, towards the 1850s, Aya, do you know who turned up in the 1850s knocking on Japan's door? It was I! Aya! I have lived in this world long before any of you and will be here long after. Normally on this show the default answer is the British Empire. That's normally what happens about 80%. Weirdly on this one, it's America. Yeah, the United States.

Which I was not expecting. The Americans show up in the 1850s and it's a guy by the name of Commodore Matthew Perry, not the beloved actor from Friends. 1853, tell me the story Satana. Commodore Matthew Perry, his black ship arrived at the Edo Bay in 1853. So the main objective is to open Japan to American trade, obviously. The US wanted new markets, access to Japanese coal and also secure a safe base for its whaling ships. and also establishing presence in Japan was, you know, strategically very important as one of the rising imperial powers, right? So Perry persuaded the Baku whose representatives said it would be better for Japan to sign a treaty with America than the British. You know, you know how much damage the British Empire inflicted on China, you

know, the open wars and things, right? As a British Indian man, it's something that I have a passing familiarity with. There are complex historical reasons between this face and this voice. Okay, Ahir, we've got a picture actually we can show you. This is by an unknown artist. It's one of Matthew Perry's ships. Would you like to describe it for us? It's black. Black ship. Right. I would describe the vibours off. The ship has a face, but the face has a big horn like a narwhal. But a man's face who does not look like, he looks

pleased but in a bad way. Evil. Yeah, evil, evil pleased. This is a depiction of a suspicious foreign power, satana. Well, that's that's the perception at the time. And once the Americans are sort of through the door, Britain are like, well, could we come in? You've done a deal with them and we're good at empires too. So the British, who else Satana? All the big boys, you know, the British, the French and the Dutch and, you know, Prussian

and sort of Russian also sent ships, you know, these imperial powers with the capital P. Normally when one imperial power signed a treaty, treaty meaning unequal treaty, others followed. Ahir, if you were the government of the Shogunate of Japan, how would you respond to this influx of western powers waving treaties in your face? You can really imagine someone standing to the side just being like, I did tell you that if you gave one, they'd all want one. Right? And what's happened? What's happened?

The Ahir Shagunate is very much one of saying, I told you so. Is that right? No, no, no. In this, I'm the sort of like slightly harried shogun being like, yeah, I get it. I get it. All right. Satana, the really interesting thing is that the shogunate at this stage consults the emperor, who for 250 years has been sort of, you know, over there somewhere in Kyoto. But suddenly the

shogun consults the emperor for his advice? Yeah, because they panicked. And this act of asking backfired majorly for the shogunate because emperor at the time was Komei, Komei-tenno Komei, he said no, you should just fulfill your duty as barbarian subduing general. But in 1858, sorry, the Shogunate gave in to pressure and signed an equal treaty with America without imperial approval. So that sort of angered many samurai loyalists leading to this movement called Sonno-Joi movement, Undo, that means Sonno is revered emperor, expelled barbarian movement. Oh, good name for a movement. Yeah, it is. Two different policies in one movement, I like that. It was not anti-Bakufu movement to start with, but that sort of radically, you know,

becoming anti-Bakufu too, over time. And so we've got all these domestic issues now in the 1860s. So we've got famines, angry peasants in the countryside, angry people in the cities, a bunch of foreign countries parking their warships on Japan's front lawn. Ahir, how would you solve this in the Ahir shagunate? I'm gonna keep using that, sorry, I'm very happy with it. I would just be like, do you know what? 260 is a good run. You'd say what, just sort of farewell, thanks very much, you have a go?

No, no, I don't think that I would do that. You've got to stand up, you've got to stand your ground. Okay, good. I mean, Satana, we're coming towards the Meiji restoration. So do you want to talk us through the lead up to that? Yeah, so the Meiji restoration of 1868 that brought an end to the shogunate because of a combination of internal external factors. But before that, there's also, you know, ongoing conflicts over the succession of the Shogunate between I Naosuke and Sam Furai Daimyo who wanted 12 year old Tokugai Yoshitomi and the 12 year old Yoshitomi was put forward because he would be controlled by the chief counsellor you know he it would be more easy. Did no one go this whole thing started because someone tried to put a baby

in charge. Maybe let's not do that. Five was too young, but maybe 12 is just right. 12 at the time is 30 years old. So it's okay. Do they choose the 12 year old then? Is that the decision? Yes, yes. But the 12 year old was the 14th shogun. But the other one became the 15th shogun anyway. So it was just a matter of timing, really. Yeah. So things are going really wrong because we're back to the political violence we started our story with, really.

Yeah. And you've got ongoing conflicts. So by 1866, the shogunate military forces, it's going really wrong for them. And when is the major restoration? 1860? January the 3rd, 1868. Yes, that's when the raw ranking samurai from Satsuma, Choshu, Hizen and Tosa, sorry, my students will have a go at me. And together with certain progressive

courtiers, you know, from the courts, they decided to carry out this kudita, like a really peaceful kudita, it's just a sort of discussion, but kudita, that, you know, the major emperor, the 16-year-old, getting older, major Emperor is the new sovereign and they established this imperial rule. Okay, so the Shogun steps down, the Emperor steps up. It's the endo of the Edo. We're out. It's done. Mission accomplished. 265 years. Edo period. Compl that mate. Yeah. The nuance window! The NUANCE WINDOW

Okay, well that's been a fascinating chat. It's time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Ahi and I set down our samurai swords and we sit quietly with our rice bowl for two minutes while Dr. Satana takes centre stage to tell us something we need to know about Edo Japan without much further ado. It's very incredible how long the Edo period lasted, 260 years, and Edo Japan thrived due

to political stability and economic growth and also cultural development. Political stability was maintained through the, I would say, effective governance of the Tokugashogunet, you know, this, you know, carrot and stick strategy and granting autonomy while implementing the hostage system. So I thought it was quite clever. The Shogunate maintained contact with the rest of the world through the Dutch and Chinese, albeit in a sort of passive manner. So that sort of indicated that Edo Japan was still part of the international community, you could say. But while some may argue that Edo Japan was sort of technologically, culturally and intellectually limited and sort of susceptible to external pressure because

of this long period of isolation, you can see the flourishing arts, crafts and technologies during the Edo period. And you know, they're amazing. So that's just otherwise. I'm personally more drawn to the cultural aspects of the period, you know, like Ukiyo-e and literature, especially ghost stories. I recommend that. You should just read that. It's great.

And also theater, you know, these are like still vital components of Japanese culture today. For example, I don't know whether I can say this, but I'm a huge fan of manga, the Japanese comic. Do you read this? I don't know. I still read a lot of them and spend far too much. So sorry on that. Because whenever I come across references of Edo culture,

which you see a lot, it often amazes me how much Edo culture still impacts Japan today. Go and read manga. Thank you Satana for that wonderful lesson. Thank you. Really enjoyable. Listener, after today's episode you want more from Ahir, we've got our episodes on the rise of Julius Kaisa and the Indus Civilisation. And for a different East Asian story, try our episode on Tang Dynasty China. That's a medieval story which I enjoyed very much.

But it's time to just say thank you to our guests in History Corner. We have the sensational Dr Satana Suzuki from Soas. Thank you, Satana. Thank you so much. I had a great fun. Yeah, it was real fun. And in Comedy Corner, we have the always amazing Ahirana. Thank you so much, I had a great fun. Yeah, it was real fun. And in Comedy Corner, we had the always amazing Ahir Shah. Thank you Ahir.

Thank you. And to you lovely listeners, join me next time as we restore another topic to its rightful place in history. But for now, I'm off to go and stage a revival of Shogun the Musical, because every Shogun needs show tunes. Bye! I wanted to speak to the souls of a million strangers. This cultural life from BBC Radio 4. I actually started crying.

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