You're Dead to Me - El Cid (Radio Edit)

Episode Date: July 10, 2026

Greg Jenner is joined in medieval Spain by historian Professor Nora Berend and comedian Toussaint Douglass to learn about the colourful life and afterlife of the warrior known as El Cid.El Cid – real name Rodrigo Díaz – was a mercenary in eleventh-century Spain who fought for both Christian kings and Muslim rulers before setting himself up as ruler of Valencia. This episode explores his dramatic life in the period before religious divisions were key on the Iberian Peninsula, and an ambitious warrior might fight for whoever would pay him. It then traces the legend that grew up around him after his death, taking in the medieval romances written about El Cid, the surprising role his bones played in the Napoleonic wars, his appropriation by General Franco after the Spanish Civil War, and even the classic Hollywood film starring Charlton Heston and Sophia Loren.This is a radio edit of the original podcast episode. For the full-length version, please look further back in the feed.Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Adam Simcox Written by: Adam Simcox, Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Dr Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Gill Huggett Senior Producer: Dr Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. How has America shaped the world? I'm Asma Khalid, host of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. As the United States marks its 250 year anniversary, we've been exploring the surprising and often hidden ways the U.S. has shaped the modern world. And today on the show, we answer your questions about this moment and what to expect in the years to come.

From the BBC, it's the United States at 250. Listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name's Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are gathering a band of mercenaries and galloping back to 11th century Spain to learn about legendary warrior and all-around lad, El Cid. And to join our quest, we have two very special comrades in arms. In History Corner, she's Professor of European History at the University of Cambridge,

where she specialises in medieval social and religious history. She's the author of the fascinating book, El Cid, the life and afterlife of a medieval mercenary. It's Professor Nora Barrand. Welcome, Nora. Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here, and can someone take good care of my horse while I'm here. Pop it in the Stables, no worries.

Annie Comedy Corner. Annie Comedy Corner, he's an award-winning stand-up and comedy writer. You might have seen him on Richard Osmond's House of Games, comedians giving lectures, outsiders, late-night MASH. Maybe you've seen his recent smash. hit stand-up show, accessible pigeon material, is there any other kind? And you'll remember him from our past episodes on Frederick Douglass and the causes of the British Civil Wars. It's Tucson Douglas. Welcome back, Tucson.

Thanks for having me, Greg. Absolutely pleasure to be here. This is without doubt my favourite podcast on the BBC about history. Thank you. The caveat started rolling in. Last time out, Tucson, we were on home turf with the British Civil Wars. I know you're quite good on politics and history. Yeah. So how comfortable are you with medieval Spain?

I'm going to be completely honest with you, Greg. Spanish historical figures, not my forte. I know Chris. We all know Chris. We all know Chris. We don't even have to say his last day. We all know Chris Akabusi. Chris Akabusi, 902 Olympics, bronze medalist,

I'm obviously talking about Christopher Columbus. Catherine of Arrigan, I know them. And then it gets quite sketchy. We're on to Don Quixote, Don Juan. Yeah. I'm not even sure if these people are actually real people. but I know them. Yeah, the last two are fictional, but that's fine.

So the name El Cid, nothing's going off in your brain. I mean, first off, it's a great name, right? It sounds like the name of like a lead singer of like a Spanish punk band, do you know what I mean? Yes. And also a cleaning product. You know, like El Cid and the dirt is quittado. You know, that's what's rigging for me when you say El Cid, but no, I don't know who he is. Okay, well, you know, that's fine. That's all good.

So, what do you know? This is the Sawadio know. This is where I have a go at guessing what you are. Our lovely listener will know about today's subject. And if you're tuning in from Spain, you will probably be familiar with El Cid. For everyone else, I reckon you're half remembering a dead guy on a horse. From the classic 1961 movie, El Cid starring Charlton Heston and Sophia Loren.

She did not play the horse. Just checking. And a listener, actually, if you're in the UK, you can watch the El Cid movie on BBC Eye Player. It's there right now and it's there for a while. And of course, in that movie, El Cid is portrayed as a Christian hero who fights Muslim invaders. If you're a gamer, like me a bit, you will know El Cid from the Crusader Kings games and the Total War Games, my absolute faves. But who was the man behind the myth?

Does his real life live up to legend? And can a corpse really lead an army? Let's find out. Oki-dokey. Nora, we're calling this guy El-Sid. First name L, last name's Sid? I'm afraid not. L is the Castilian vernacular

The And Sid comes from the Arabic It's a distorted Arabic term from Sayid Lord It used to be thought that he was called Miothid, my lord, by his Muslim subjects and that it was a unique honorific

This has now been very much questioned because the first source that calls him that is later after he died He was called Kampador-Battler in his lifetime And so it may well be that even Sid, but certainly El Sid the Lord, is just kind of part of the later legend already. Do we have a real name for him, though? What's our...

Rodrigo. Rodrigo Diaz or Ruiz, so at the time, Rodrigo and Ruiz were the same name. Is Diaz a surname or is it a middle name? So Diaz is basically, they used patronymics. So from your father's name, you had this. So his father was Diego, so he was Diaz. Okay, so Rodrigo Diaz, yeah. Okay, so Rodrigo Diaz not really El-Sid until later on.

So we'll call him Rodrigo. We'll call him Rodrigo. That's the guy. Okay, we've done a full episode already, listeners on Al-Underl, which you can go listen to in the back catalogue. It's lots of fun. But can we have a quick refresher? What sort of world is Rodrigo Diaz born into? It was a time of opportunity and political upheaval.

We don't really know exactly when he was born, but it's kind of middle of the 11th So to go back a little bit in the early 8th century, an Arab-led Berber conquest arrived in the Iberian Peninsula. And in the wake of that, Al-Andalus, a Muslim society developed. And this Al-Andalus was the main power on the Iberian Peninsula for quite a long time, until 1031, when the last Caliph, Hisham III, was overthrown. You've mentioned the Arabs and the Berbers there. Could you explain the differences between them? The Arabs converted to Islam were the first followers of Muhammad. The Berbers of North Africa were relatively recently converted or not yet quite converted to Islam at this point.

So the leadership consisted of the Arabs, but a lot of the army invading the peninsula were Berberies from North Africa. And then Al-Andalus fragmented into a lot of what are called Taifa principalities. There were 33 of them initially. Wow. So one kingdom turned into 33. Exactly. So huge change. And it also meant that the northern Christian kingdoms, which were slowly emerging sort of after the early 8th century, by the 11th century, there was Leon, Castile and Argonne, who were the main players on the Christian side. They now had the upper hand.

So these Christians from the north could start raiding into the south. So Tucson, what do you think of Pequenio-Rodriguez? childhood, you know, what do you imagine his childhood was like? What class do you think he's born into? And what do you think his early days are? He ended up as my lord, the lord. So I'm guess there's got to be some sort of lordiness involved in his childhood. Is that a technical term? Yeah, I'm from Lewisham. I have no idea. I think he, I think he wasn't a commoner. But he was a fighter, right? So actually can't have been that high up because they didn't get their hands dirty. Okay.

He was middle class, but he, you know, he would secretly shop at Liddles. He's that, in terms of nobility, that's kind of where he was back then. I don't know. I have no idea. I think that's a really good guess. I think that's a good summary, Nora. We know for his father, who is Diego Alainas, who was definitely from the aristocracy. And one source from the 12th century mentions that his mother was also from the aristocracy, but there are debates about who exactly she was.

We know that he appeared at the court of the then-earned. infant as Sancho, so prince who later on became Sancho II. So in the early 1060s, he appears as a warrior. And when Sancho becomes king, 1065, Rodrigo is kind of an established warrior, and he leads the king's ratting use. Okay. You said Sancho's second. He's the king of Leon Castile.

Is that a combination of two kingdoms that have been smushed together? Yes, exactly. So Spanish kingdoms at this time are joined, then separated, then joined again. So, yeah. Quite troubled relationship. Yeah. So Fernando the first, who was king of Leon Castile, left his realm divided between his three sons when he died in 1065.

Oh, he did a king, Lear. So, yes. Absolute rookie. What he did? So, Sancho the second, Alfonso, the 6th and Garcia the second. And they immediately started fighting it out. So first, Alfonso and Sancho together, defeated and exiled Garcia

and then Sancho turned against Alfonso and defeated an exile of him. And then he started besieging a fortress of his sister, Uraqa. His sister as well. And met a very sticky end because apparently an assassin stuck a spear in his back.

Oh. That allowed Alfonso to return and claim the throne. I'm sorry, but can you still be called an assassin if you kill them with a spear? That's hardly subtle, is it? Who's the king now? I've lost track of who.

Alfonso of the 6th. Thank you. Alfonso is the 6th is now king. He reunites Sloan Castile. Okay, so he brings the king that's back together. Great. Tucson, how do you think Rodrigo Diaz navigated this new court politics now that the siblings have fortered out?

What do you reckon he does? I mean, you've got to get straight in there with the new king, right? That's got to be your go-to move. I didn't even like Sancho the second. You were always my favorite. Alfonso. Come on. Alfonso the 6th, let's go. Okay, you're a smooth talker.

Okay, I can see that. Nora, was Rodrigo, you know, was he smooth and loyal to the new king? Did he, you know, fair with a friend or absolutely right or die with the new king? Well, loyalty was definitely not Rodrigo's strong stute. So,

you're quite right about sort of immediately wanting to kind of get on the good side of the king. So, yeah, he basically switched to Alfonso court and he became one of Alfonso's warriors. Eventually he fell out with Alfonso. So Alfonso was the protector of one of these Muslim Taifa kingdoms Toledo. But when there was a Muslim attack, plundering attack against Castile, Rodrigo retaliated by raiding Toledo. So obviously that put Alfonso in a very nasty spot because one of his own warriors was raiding an area he was

supposed to be protecting. So Alfonso ended up exiling Rodrigo. Right. It feels like he's a guy, he doesn't like having a boss. It feels like he wants to work for himself. You know what I mean? He feels like he's more suited to kind of like being self-employed. A freelance, if you will. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Someone who really on the battlefield put the lance into freelance. Exactly. The tree is at the back. Yeah. What we haven't mentioned actually, he's married. So who's Mrs. Rodrigo? She's Jimena. They married around 1074. She is also from an aristocratic family, related, in fact, to King Alfonso VI.

And when Rodrigo goes into exile, she takes their children back to her family, probably. They have three children, two daughters, Christina and Maria, and probably a son, Diego, although he's only mentioned in a later source. What do you think wifeless, childless Rodrigo gets up to in his exile? I think he's getting a lot of good sleep. I think that's for sure. He's getting his eight hours in. Spoken like a new dad. Yeah.

He's getting a beauty sleep. I'm a bit jealous, actually, with this Rodrigo guy. Yes, understandable. You say getting a lot of sleep. He's a mercenary commander, Nora. Yeah, I'm not so sure he's getting lots of sleep, actually. And he first tried to go to the court of the count of Barcelona, who was not interested in him. So he ends up going to one of these Muslim Taifa kingdoms, Zargoza.

He's working for Islamic rulers and armies. Is this controversial and rare, or is this like just par for the course? It's very much part of the course. It is not at all unusual at the time. And in fact, Christian kings had more of a chance dying by the hands of other Christians, including their relatives, than dying, fighting Muslims. And usually in these wars,

Christian Muslim alliances fought against other Christian Muslim alliances. So it's quite a misnomer to sort of see this as some kind of Christian war against Muslims. The rhetoric of Christian war basically coexisted with this kind of much more pragmatic and indiscriminate fighting in reality. He's not like this religious zealot kind of warrior. He's just like a member of the gig economy, basically. But in 1086, Rodrigo went back to Team Alfonso. Did they kiss and make up? Was this a sort of lovely reunion?

It's unclear whether he initiated this return or the king. Because the background was basically a huge shock that was produced by the actions of Alfonso the 6th. Up until then, kings were collecting tribute. The Muslims got used to that. But Alfonso then decided to send the Tifer ruler of Toledo to Valencia. So he just removed him, gave him another kingdom. and annexed Toledo in 1085.

Wow. And that was symbolically significant because it used to be the capital before the Arab Berber conquest. So this was very important symbolically, but it sent a kind of wave of panic through the Taifa rulers who then called the Moroccan Almoravids in to help them.

So the Almaravids invaded... From Morocco. From Morocco by the sea, overseen. And immediately defeated Alfonso, who was now... absolutely desperate for warriors. But in 1089, so indeed very quickly, the king and Rodrigo fell out again. This time, the Almoravids, together with Taifa armies, were besieging Aledo. And Rodrigo seems to have found a very lame excuse for not showing up. And the king,

obviously, was not pleased by this. He had Rodrigo's family imprisoned. He confiscated. He investigated all his lands and he exiled him again. So with his retinue, some of his men deserted him. But enough were left to kind of carry out race for himself and to reward his followers. So basically he's now just trying to build up a power base for himself. So he's a startup. He's a entrepreneur. How has America shaped the world?

I'm Asma Khalid, host of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. As the United States marks its 250-year and a restaurant, we've been exploring the surprising and often hidden ways the U.S. has shaped the modern world. And today on the show, we answer your questions about this moment and what to expect in the years to come. From the BBC, it's the United States at 250. Listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. And then he starts really focusing on Valencia and collecting tribute for himself from there, continues to fight against Muslims and Christians, fairly indiscriminate.

believe it or not, he and King Alfonso tried to cooperate again and this time fall out because Rodrigo places his camp in front of the kings. Rodriguez claims that this is because he's trying to protect

the king, but the king sees it as absolute arrogance. They have various angry exchanges and confrontations to the point where Alfonso wants to have Rodrigo captured but Trude Rodrigo at that point escapes. What's next for Rodrigo? Like, you know, he can't just keep this up, Kenny.

He can't just keep allying and falling out with people? Well, he actually has his big break at this point. Oh, right. Okay. So as the Almoravits are conquering some of the lands of the Iberian Peninsula, there's an uprising in Valencia. And this ruler, Al-Qadir, who had been installed by Alfonso VI, as his protege, who is very, very unpopular, is now overthrown, captured and executed,

and the city's judge, Ibn Jahav, takes power. Okay, and where is Valencia in the geography of Spain? Is it West Spain? Well, it's on the eastern coast, and it was quite far down in Muslim lands at this point. Okay, on the eastern coast. Okay, thank you. Rodrigo has seized this city. He seized Valencia.

Well, so, I mean, he had been collecting tribute from there, and so he has men who were then either captured during this rebellion or had to flee. And it's at this point that Rodrigo decides to besiege the city. Right. So the siege means surrounding the city, starving it, raiding the surrounding countryside. And Ibn Jahav has to get help from the Almoravids, who do send an army. But torrential rains and Rodrigo cutting the dams of the River Turia floods the area between the Almoravids and Rodrigo's army.

so Rodrigo basically foils this plan to get outside help. And in the end in 1094, Valencia surrenders. And Rodrigo becomes its ruler now. So he officially calls himself and is called by his subject's preinceps, prince, which is a kind of term for rulers who are not kings. So he's Prince Rodrigo. Okay, yeah, he's gone up. It's kind of worked out for him.

Yeah. Actually, he died. Ah, he died in 1099 of natural. causes and he did not leave a male heir, so no son who could have. Oh, so the son in the source that you talked about, the Diego son, he would have died. He died. And his daughters would inherit it? So his widow Jimena inherited. His daughters were married. They were married. But it was Jimena who then ruled Valencia for three years. But then the Almoravids started to besiege Valencia.

And Jimena asked Alfonso VI for help. So at this point, yeah, it's difficult to hold the city against this army. And Alfonso does arrive with an army. He does? Yeah, he does. Oh, fair play Alfonso. He doesn't seem to bear grudges, yes. He had every reason to be like, nope.

I mean, also, of course, remember, she was a kinswoman of him and of his. And of course, Rodrigo was already dead. But so, yeah, he arrives with an army, lifts the siege. but he cannot maintain the defense of Valencia so far away from his own land. So basically the city is evacuated. Everybody with their possessions go north to Castile. Alfonso has the city burned, so not to leave it intact for the Almoravids. And Jimena also takes Rodrigo's remains and has him reburied in a monastery called San Pedro de Cardena.

Don't get up yet, though, Tucson. We're not done yet because we're going to. We're going to now talk about the kind of the afterlife of Rodrigo, or rather El Cid, this whole other guy that he becomes. Is it a religious revival? A series of people and reasons, actually, there is this kind of religious rhetoric, which is indeed important. And in the 12th, 13th centuries especially, the war that was still a much messier war on the ground, but it was increasingly accompanied by a kind of ecclesiastical rhetoric, which, presented it at least as sort of Christian war against Muslims. It wasn't quite matching realities,

but you have that very strong rhetoric of the restoration of Christian lands. Two more reasons, really. One was the creation of a prestigious past for Castile, because Castile, by the 13th century, became the most important Christian kingdom. But at the start, it didn't have a particularly illustrious beginning. So now they're looking for Castilian heroes. So here is Elthid. And then finally, the monastery, the monastery of San Pedro de Cardena where he's buried. The monks are fantastic producers of all kinds of stories and tales and really foster his cult. So they kind of create these fictional links between the live, Rodriguez, if he had already sort of chosen the monastery in all kinds of ways. And they, of course, want to attract donations and also have this very

prestigious patron. And they actually try to have him. canonized as a saint eventually. Oh, really? And Tucson, in one medial text, El Cid's death was famously rewritten. Right. Do you know what it says? Is it that he rides his horse even though he's dead? Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, he... Which sounds weird. He spied his men to victory, was it? Well, yes, although it's kind of even more intriguing than that. Because according to the story, which was written in the 13th century, and then incorporated into the official court chronicles of the Castilian kings. The horse was also dead. No, although the horse could also be an important player later on.

But according to this, St. Peter... Comes a king as well. I'm going to get on this, actually. I'm going to get on the king economy. I'm not making way enough money as the horse. I'm going to be a ruler, actually. I've changed my mind. So St. Peter appears to Rodrigo for telling his death and a victory after this.

death. Wow. So then... Good news, that news. Yeah, exactly. Richard D.1 first. And Rodrigo prepares for this. For seven days, he doesn't eat, he just drinks a bit of water mixed with myrr and balsam. So he basically is embalmic himself. Wow. He's still alive. So indeed he dies. A Muslim army led by Bukhar attacks. For nine days, they fight against them. And of course, people don't know what's going on.

doesn't come, doesn't appear. And then after that, they put him in his armor, strap him on his horse, fix his sword in his hand. And together with the army, he sort of charges out, helped by no other than sent James the Apostle along with a heavenly host. So I think you cannot do better than that. And of course, they defeat the Muslim army. The text also then deprives the Muslims of the victory of taking

of retaking Valencia, because according to this, Rodrigo wanted to be buried at San Pedro de Cardena, so immediately after this victory, they take the corpse to be buried, and everybody wants to participate. So the whole town is empty, because all the inhabitants go to bury him in San Pedro, so the Muslims can take the city, but it's not an emilitary tree.

It's just all gone to the funeral. Yeah, exactly. A different take on an open casket funeral, isn't it? Just one line about the horse Because according to the same text The horse is then Taken very good care off at the monastery So he has this very long, nice life

And they make sure that there are lots of fillies So his line is perpetuated I'm sorry, what is this text And what was the person who wrote that text smoking Because this is You want some of that But he was a monk, I'm afraid So he's called Elfid

By this point, right? The name Rodrigo has sort of turned into the Lord. So there we go. Quite the life. Toussaint, where do you stand? I'm still a bit of a fan. Yeah. I think he's a go-getter, you know, and he's done his thing.

He go-gets and then sets fire too. He goes. Set's fire and then leaves, yeah. The nuance window! Time now for the nuance window. This is where Tucson and I sit quietly and snack on our myr and balsam so we can mummify ourselves. for two minutes while Professor Nora rides into battle, hopefully still alive, to tell us something we need to know about El Cid slash Rodrigo Diaz.

My stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Professor Berend. What I think is very intriguing is not simply how Rodrigo Diaz was transformed into El Cid, but how that mythical construct then became a kind of mascot and rallying cry for both the right and the left. And even, of course, today, now the new right and far right again uses El Cid as a kind of prototype white supremacist fighting against Muslims and migrants. But very strangely, he's also been picked up as a model guy for peaceful coexistence and multiculturalism. So somebody who lived together with and learned from Muslims. So I think this is a very interesting mixture.

And, of course, the left-wing use of the SID goes back already to early modern times when this legend developed about him enforcing this oath so that the nobles would not accept of the Sixth until he swears he had nothing to do with his brother's murder, Sancho's murder. That turns the SIDS into a kind of person who can hold kings to justice, someone who's against tyranny. And so in early modern times, he's already represented in this way. And in the 19th century, when in 1820, Colonel Riego reintroduced the liberal constitution. There was a song written for the so-called anthem of Riego, written for this, which then became the Republican kind of national anthem. There, the Cid is really kind of the representative of the good guys. The liberals are his sons. So I think this is quite a posthumous career for such an opportunistic warrior.

Amazing. Thank you so much. Two minutes on the clock. I mean, amazing. One minute, 59. That was brilliant. That was great. So there we go. He's everything to everyone. Yeah. I think for me, El Sid, to me, I'm going to use El Sid, like, when I have like a really bad gig, you know, when I like really die, I'm just going to die. I'm just going to go like that. Just drop yourself to a horse. Yeah. Just grab myself to a horse. And when I have to go to like, I don't know, you know, slough for a gig or something,

I'll just strap myself on the floor. Anyway, that was lots of fun. Thank you so much for that fascinating insight. Listener, if you want more Spanish history, we have episodes, of course, on Alain de Luz or Hernan Cortez and Melinsin. For more famous medieval warriors, we've covered Joan of Arc. That's all the way back in series one. You have to scroll forever on the app, sorry.

We've done Owen Glendour in Wales. And, of course, for more, Tucson, we've gone into American history with Frederick Douglass an extraordinary man, brilliant man and well worth knowing about. And we did the course as the British Civil Wars. So we've covered all sorts of stuff together. Marvel episode. It was. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends.

Subscribe to Your Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. Lucky you. If you're outside the UK, you can listen at BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We had the brilliant Professor Nora Berend from the University of Cambridge. Thank you, Nora. Thank you for inviting me. It was an absolute hoot. What fun we had.

And in Comedy Corner, we have the terrific Tucson Douglas. Thanks, Tucson. Thank you so much. Having me to Greg, it was your pleasure. Very, very good. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we peel back the layers on another larger-than-life historical figure. But for now, I'm off to go and beg some monks to write flattering fan fiction about me when I die. Bye!

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How has America shaped the world? I'm Asma Khalid, host of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. As the United States marks its 250 year anniversary, we've been exploring the surprising and often hidden ways the U.S. has shaped the modern world. And today on the show, we answer your questions about this moment and what to expect in the years to come. From the BBC, it's the United States at 250. Listen to The Global Story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.