You're Dead to Me - El Cid: the life and legend of a medieval Spanish warrior

Episode Date: April 10, 2026

Greg Jenner is joined in medieval Spain by historian Professor Nora Berend and comedian Toussaint Douglass to learn about the colourful life and afterlife of the warrior known as El Cid. El Cid – real name Rodrigo Díaz – was a mercenary in eleventh-century Spain who fought for both Christian kings and Muslim rulers before setting himself up as ruler of Valencia. This episode explores his dramatic life in the period before religious divisions were key on the Iberian Peninsula, and an ambitious warrior might fight for whoever would pay him. It then traces the legend that grew up around him after his death, taking in the medieval romances written about El Cid, the surprising role his bones played in the Napoleonic wars, his appropriation by General Franco after the Spanish Civil War, and even the classic Hollywood film starring Charlton Heston and Sophia Loren.If you’re a fan of legendary but mysterious figures from the past, medieval romances, and the use and misuse of history for political purposes, you’ll love our episode on El Cid. If you want to learn more about other historical events mentioned in this episode, listen to our episodes on al-Andalus and Young Napoleon. And for more from Toussaint Douglass, check out our episodes on Frederick Douglass and the Causes of the British Civil Wars.You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Adam Simcox Written by: Adam Simcox, Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Dr Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Gill Huggett Senior Producer: Dr Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

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Mr. Holmes, they were the footprints of a gigantic hound. Start listening to Sherlock Holmes, the computer. complete BBC collection, wherever you get your audiobooks. Hello, and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name's Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are gathering a band of mercenaries and galloping back to 11th century Spain to learn about legendary warrior and all-around lad, El Cid. And to join our quest, we have two very special comrades in arms.

In History Corner, she's Professor of European History at the University of Cambridge, where she specialises in medieval social and religious history. She's the author of the fascinating book, El Cid, the life and afterlife of a medieval mercenary. It's Professor Nora Barrand. Welcome, Nora. Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here, and can someone take good care of my horse while I'm here.

Pop it in the Stables, no worries. Annie Comedy Corner. Annie Comedy Corner, he's an award-winning stand-up and comedy writer. You might have seen him on Richard Osmond's House of Games, comedians giving lectures, outsiders, late-night MASH. Maybe you've seen his recent smash. hit stand-up show, accessible pigeon material, and you'll remember him from our past episodes on Frederick Douglas,

and the causes of the British Civil Wars. It's Tucson Douglas, welcome back, Tucson. Thanks for having me, Greg. Absolutely pleasure to be here. This is without doubt my favourite podcast on the BBC about history. Thank you. The caveat started rolling in. Last time out, Tucson, we were on home turf with the British Civil Wars.

I know you're quite good on politics and history. So how comfortable are you with medieval Spain? I'm going to be completely honest with you, Greg. Spanish historical figures, not my forte. I know Chris. We all know Chris. We don't even have to say his last thing. We all know Chris Akabusi.

Chris Akabusi, 902 Olympics, bronze medalist, I'm obviously talking about Christopher Columbus. Catherine of Aragon, I know them. And then it gets quite sketchy. We're on to Don Quixote, Don Juan. I'm not even sure if these people are actually real people. but I know them. Yeah, the last two are fictional, but that's fine.

Okay. So the name, El Cid, nothing's going off in your brain. I mean, first off, let's just, it's a great name, right? Yeah. It sounds like the name of like a lead singer of like a Spanish punk band, do you know what I mean? Yes. And also a cleaning product, you know, like El Cid and the dirt is quittado. You know, that's what's rigging for me when you say El Cid, but no, I don't know who he is.

Okay. Well, you know, that's fine. That's all good. I mean, I think I'm older than you. So for me, the movie comes to mind. But you're a younger man. So clearly you haven't got that kind of nostalgia. So my nan used to have lots of VHSs,

so she just record lots of old movies. So I didn't want to, I might be making this up. But I think I might have seen, was it like a really old 1960s movie with the guy from Planet of the Apes? That's it, John Heson. Not the ape, the human guy. Okay, come on.

Yes, El Cid was an ape. Yeah, weird casting. Yeah. All I remember from that film is it was quite long. And then, like, they strapped him onto a horse at the end. Very good knowledge. That's all I don't. I don't know if I'm intrigued to know, nor if that is actually historically accurate.

It didn't feel like at the time, I'd be honest, it felt like a stretch. So, What Do You Know? This is the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you are. Lovely listener will know about today's subject. And if you're tuning in from Spain, you will probably be familiar with El Cid. For everyone else, I reckon you're kind of where Tucson is, half remembering a dead guy on a horse. From the classic 1961 movie, El Cid starring Charlton Heston and Sophia Loren.

She did not play the horse, just checking. And a listener actually, if you're in the UK, you can watch the El Cid movie on BBC Eye Player. It's there right now and it's there for a while. And of course, in that movie, El Cid is portrayed as a Christian hero who fights Muslim invaders. If you're a gamer, like me a bit, you will know El Cid from the Crusader Kings games and the total war games, my absolute faves. But who was the man behind the myth? Does his real life live up to legend

and can a corpse really lead an army? Let's find out. Oki-dokey. Nora, we're calling this guy El Sid. First name L, last name, Sid. I'm afraid not. Elle is the Castilian vernacular, the, and Sid comes from the Arabic.

It's a distorted Arabic term from Saeed Lord. It used to be thought that he was called me or Sid, my lord, by his Muslim subjects, and that it was a unique honorific. This has now been very much questioned because the first source that calls him that is later after he died. He was called

Campador, Battler, in his lifetime. And so it may well be that even Sid, but certainly El Sid, the Lord, is just kind of part of the later legend already. But to complicate things a little further, we now also know that Around 1,100, other people started to be called Miocid in the region. And that CD was already a kind of personal name from the Arabic in the, came into the Castilian

particular as a personal name. So either he was not called Miocid at all while he was alive, or if he was, it wasn't unique. So to summarize, either everyone was called El Sid or no one was called El Sid. Right, that's good. Do we have a real name for him, though? Do you want to give us a guess and what, a good Spanish name for this fella? I mean, this could get quite stereotyping.

I think my favourite Spanish name has to be Raphael. Oh. Raphael Adal, yeah. Okay, so you think he's a tennis player? Yeah, I think, yeah, maybe a little bit of rackets. Okay, does he have a very strong backhand, Nora? Perhaps he did, but you got the first letter, right? Oh, okay.

The R is correct. I'll take that. Do you have another guess? We can play hangman. Roberto? No, that would be more Italian, yeah, yeah, okay. Nora, what's our?

Rodrigo. Rodrigo Diaz or Ruiz, Dias, so at the time, Rodrigo and Ruiz were sort of the same name. Is Diaz a surname or is it a middle name? So Diaz is basically, they used patronymics. So from your father's name,

you had this, so his father was Diego, so he was Diaz. Okay, so Rodrigo Diaz, not really El-Sid until later on. So we'll call him Rodrigo. We'll call him Rodrigo.

That's the guy. Okay, we've done a full episode already, listeners on Al-Underluss, which you can go listen to in the back catalogue. It's lots of fun. But can we have a quick refresher? What sort of world is Rodrigo Diaz born into? When in history and what's his class status?

It was a time of opportunity and political upheaval. We don't really know exactly when he was born, but it's kind of middle of the 11th century. So to go back a little bit in the early 8th century, an Arab-led Berber conquest arrived in the Iberian Peninsula. And in the wake of that, Al-Andalus, a Muslim society developed. And this Al-Andalus was the main power on the Iberian Peninsula for quite a long time, until 1031 when the last Caliph Hisham III was overthrown. You've mentioned the Arabs and the Berbers there.

Could you explain the differences between them? Because I think maybe some of our listeners, including myself, might not know the subtle nuances. Yeah, so the Arabs converted to Islam were the first followers of Muhammad. The Berbers of North Africa were relatively recently converted or not yet quite converted to Islam at this point. So the leadership consisted of the Arabs, but a lot of the army invading the peninsula were Berberies from North Africa. And then Al-Andalus,

fragmented into a lot of what are called Taifa principalities. There were 33 of them initially. Wow, so one kingdom turned into 33. Exactly. That's a nightmare. And it also meant that the northern Christian kingdoms, which were slowly emerging after the early 8th century, by the 11th century, there was Leon, Castile and Argonne, who were the main players on the Christian side, they now had the upper hand. So these Christians from the North could start raiding into the South. They took plunder, but they also destroyed property infrastructure. And this gave rise to what has been called a protection racket. So the northerners could say, if you pay us in gold, we are not going to raid you. So the Muslims

of the South were sending all these treasures north. That sounds very Christian, yeah. So Tucson, what do you think of Pekeno Rodrigo's childhood? You know, what do you imagine his childhood was like what class do you think he's born into and what do you think his early days are? Well, he ended up as my lord, the lord. So I'm guessing there's got to be some sort of lordiness involved in his childhood. Is that a technical term? Yeah, I'm from Lewisham. I have no idea. I think he wasn't a commoner. So I'm going to pitch him, but he was a fighter, right? So actually can't have been that high up because they didn't get their hands today. Okay.

So I'm thinking, I guess the equipment of like middle class, you know, maybe he's like, you know, lower middle class. Like, you know, he was middle class, but he, you know, he would secretly shop at Liddles. He's that, in terms of nobility, that's kind of where he was back then. I don't know. I have no idea. I think that's a really good guess. I think that's a good summary, Nora. I guess we, you said 1043 for his birth range up until maybe 1057.

Yeah. So, you know, actually, no, they try to. calculate this based on his appearance. So a 14 year spread and when he's born? Yeah, because basically from counting back from the time we already know that he was a warrior, people tried to kind of calculate. So the most likely date is really kind of late 40s, 1040s, but yeah. And sorry to disappoint you or maybe this is cheerful news, but actually people did get their hands dirty or at least bloody coming from the aristocracy. So that is where he came from. We know for his father, who is Diago Alainas, who was definitely from the aristocracy.

And one source from the 12th century mentions that his mother was also from the aristocracy, but there are debates about who exactly she was. He would have been taught how to ride a horse, sequestrian skills, how to hunt, how to use weapons. He probably served some kind of military apprenticeship. He was taught some sort of rudiments of writing and perhaps reading, even though we don't really know anything for him as such. We can be fairly certain from these analogies. We know that he appeared at the court of the then-infanta-Sancho,

so Prince, who later on became Sancho II. So in the early 1060s, he appears as a warrior, and when Sancho becomes king 1065, Rodrigo is kind of an established warrior, and he leads the king's retinue, so he's clearly in a very high. So he's a knight. Is that where we can sort of pitch him? He's a warrior class, aristocratic, and a fighter?

Yeah. Okay. And you said, Sanchez II, he's the king of Leon Castile. Is that a combination of two kingdoms that have been smushed together? Yes, exactly. So Spanish kingdoms at this time are joined, then separated, then joined again. So, yeah. Quite troubled relationship, history, yeah.

We're getting hints that court policies could be messy simply by the kind of the fusion of kingdoms and the breaking up of the taifa. What do you imagine the kind of opportunities are for a knight at this point in Spanish history? I mean, it all feels quite turbulent and stuff like that. And you mentioned the raiding and stuff like that

and the opportunity. So I imagine it's a lot of a lucrative market for a capable knight to make his name and fortune, I think. I think that's certainly where we're heading, I think, actually. Although in the early phase, he's meant to be loyal to the king.

but the king does die so when a king dies all bets are off right so tell us what happens yeah well I guess sibling rivalry was a whole other thing at the time so Fernando the first

who was king of Leon Castile left his realm divided between his three sons when he died in 1065 Oh he did a king Lear So yeah Absolute rookie what he did Sancho the second

Alfonso the 6 and Garcia the second And they immediately started fighting it out. So first, Alfonso and Sancho together defeated and exiled Garcia. And then Sancho turned against Alfonso and defeated and exiled him. And then he started besieging a fortress of his sister, Uraka. His sister as well. And met a very sticky end because apparently an assassin stuck a spear in his back.

But according to later legend, his death was even mess. here. According to that legend, one of Orakha's nobles pretended to switch sides and went to Suncho and said, I'm going to show you this weak spot in the wall where you can take the fortress. So lured the king away and then when he was very far from his men and he was relieving himself, he was killed. That allowed Alfonso to return and claim the throne. I'm sorry, but can you still be called an assassin if you killed him with a spear? That's hardly

And also killing someone when they're going to the toilet trousers down. That's just a low blow. I mean, come on. Literally. Who's the king now? I've lost track of who. Alfonso of the 6th. Thank you.

Alphonseo is the 6th is now king. He reunites Sloan Castle. Okay, so he brings the king that's back together. Great. Tucson, how do you think Rodrigo Diaz navigated this new court politics now that, you know, the siblings have fought it out? What do you reckon he does? I mean, you've got to get straight in there.

with the new king, right? That's got to be your go-to move. I didn't even like Sancho the second. You were always my favorite, Alfonso. Come on. Alfonso the 6th, let's go. Okay, you're a smooth talker. Okay, I can see that.

Nora, was Rodrigo, you know, was he smooth and loyal to the new king? Did he, you know, fair with a friend or absolutely ride or die with the new king? Well, loyalty was definitely not Rodrigo's strong stute. So you're quite right about sort of immediately wanting to kind of get on the good side of the king. So, yeah, he basically switched to Alfonso's court and he became one of Alfonso's warriors. While at the royal court, he then participated in more raids and exhorting wealth,

but he also participated as other aristocrats at the court in legal judgments or judging cases, in witnessing documents. eventually he fell out with Alfonso. So Alfonso was the protector of one of these Muslim Taifa kingdoms Toledo. But when there was a Muslim attack, plundering attack against Castile, Rodrigo retaliated by raiding Toledo. So obviously that put Alfonso in a very nasty spot because one of his own warriors was raiding an area he was supposed to be protecting.

So Alfonso ended up exiling Rodrigo. Right. It feels like he's a guy, he doesn't like having a boss. It feels like he wants to work for himself. You know what I mean? He feels like he's more suited to kind of like being self-employed. A freelance, if you will. Yeah, there you go.

Someone who really on the battlefield put the lance into freelance. Exactly. The tree is the back. Okay, so he's switching sides already. Not a great sign. If you were forced into exile, What's the one thing you wouldn't want to leave behind? My pillow, because I've got memory phone pillow, so I've worked really hard on that.

You know, it really knows me at this point, so I wouldn't want to leave that. I'm not sure what Rodrigo's got as like that. And in terms of family, you'd want to bring your family with you, too. Oh, yeah, of course, yeah, them as well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, if I finish this, maybe after a couple of hours, yeah, I'd have a nice sleep. Good, having that first. And then I'd bring my toddler with you. Make sure to pick my toddler, fuck up here.

Yeah. Hang on a minute, I've got a kid, haven't I? I've better bring the kid. No, that's fair. I said thing, not person, didn't I? So that's my mistake. But yes, okay, you'd bring a pillow and your family. That makes sense.

Rodrigo doesn't. He just sort of goes, bye! And leaves his family behind. And what we haven't mentioned, actually, he's married. So who's Mrs. Rodrigo? She's Jimena. They married around 1074. She is also from an aristocratic family,

related, in fact, to King Alfonso VI. and when Rodrigo goes into exile, she takes their children back to her family probably. They have three children, two daughters, Christina and Maria, and probably a son, Diego, although he's only mentioned in the later source. What do you think wifeless, childless Rodrigo gets up to in his exile?

I think he's getting a lot of good sleep. I think that's for sure. He's getting his eight hours in. Spoken like a new dad. Yeah. He's getting him in beauty sleeping. I'm a bit jealous at, actually. Yes, understandable.

You say getting a lot of sleep, he's a mercenary commander, Nora, man on a horse. Who's he working for? Yeah, I'm not so sure he's getting lots of sleep, actually. And he first tried to go to the court of the Count of Barcelona, who was not interested in him. So he ends up going to one of these Muslim Taifa kingdoms, Zargoza. And the ruler there, Al-Mukdadir, employs him.

And then in succession, his son and his grandson. So after he dies and after his son dies. So actually, Rodrigo spends five years serving the Muslim rulers of Zaragoza. So he serves three family members in five years because they die. That feels like a pretty chaotic five years. In the Charlton House, the movie you know so well, obviously the one you record with such accuracy. He's a Christian knight who fights against Muslims. Right.

Here we have him fighting four Muslims. Yeah. Which is a kind of a turn-up for the book. I mean, listeners might be thinking, hang on a second. You know, our understanding of the Crusades is Christianity versus Islam. He's working for Islamic rulers and armies. Is this controversial and rare, or is this like just par for the course? It's very much part of the course.

It was not at all unusual at the time. And in fact, Christian kings had more of a chance dying by the hands of other Christians, including their relatives, than dying, fighting Muslims. And usually in these wars, Christian Muslim alliances fought against other Christian Muslim alliances. So it's quite a misnomer to sort of see this as some kind of Christian war against Muslims. The rhetoric of Christian war basically coexisted with this kind of much more pragmatic and indiscriminate fighting in reality. It's not like this religious zealot kind of.

of warrior. He's just like a member of the gig economy, basically. Yeah, exactly. I can relate to that. He's a member of the precarier. It's this precarious situation. He's just trying to do his best out there. But he's quite high status. So I think of him more as a sort of footballer who's like, you know what, I've fallen out with a coach. I'm going to go overseas. I'm going to go and play in the Turkish league. But in 1086, Rodrigo transferred back to his original team from his foreign loan. He went back to Team Alfonso. Did they kiss and make up? Was this, you know, is this a sort of lovely reunion?

It's unclear whether he initiated this return or the king because the background was basically a huge shock that was produced by the actions of Alfonso the 6th. Up until then, kings were collecting tribute. The Muslims got used to that. But Alfonso then decided to send the typhor ruler of Toledo to Valencia, so he just removed him, gave him another kingdom, and annexed Toledo in 1085.

Wow. And that was symbolically significant because it used to be the capital before the Arab Berber conquest. So this was very important symbolically, but it sent a kind of a wave of panic through the Taifa rulers who then called the Moroccan Almoravids in to help them.

So the Almaravids invaded from Morocco. From Morocco, by the sea, oversea, and immediately defeated Alfonso, who was now absolutely desperate for warriors. So Alfonso, Pardon Rodrigo gave him several forts, also promised him all the lands that he could conquer from the Muslims. He, of course, reunited with his wife and children and continued to amass riches and participate in warfare.

But in 1089, so indeed very quickly, the king and Rodrigo fell out again. This time, the Almoravids, together with Taifa armies, were besieging Aledo. and Rodrigo seems to have found a very lame excuse for not showing up and helping Alfonso break the siege. He actually claimed that he failed to notice the passage of the royal army. He just didn't notice that they went by. So by the time he started, it was too late. The king, obviously, was not pleased by this. He had Rodrigo's family imprisoned.

He confiscated all his lands and he exiled him again. So to stick with the clunky football analogy that I'm happy with is Rodrigo now in his free agent era. Does he get a Bosman transfer and he can go wherever he wants? Well, yes, and actually he's carrying out what Tucson already predicted for him. So with his retinue, some of his men deserted him. But enough were left to kind of carry out rates for himself and to reward his followers.

So basically he's now just trying to build up a power base for himself. So he's a startup. He's a entrepreneur. He is raiding various taifas. He takes over forts, some of them kind of abandoned forts that he has kind of re-fortified and then he stays there for weeks and months and scouts out the area. And then he starts really focusing on Valencia and collecting tribute for himself from there, continues to fight against Muslims and Christians fairly indiscriminately.

Believe it or not, he and King Alfonso try to cooperate again. And this time fall out because Rodrigo places his camp in front of the kings. Rodrigo claims that this is because he's trying to protect the king, but the king sees it as absolute arrogance. They have various angry exchanges and confrontations to the point where Alfonso wants to have Rodrigo captured. But Rodrigo at that point escapes. both sides are now basically preparing for some big military showdown. They're also gathering allies. Rodrigo actually allies both with Muslim Zaragoza and the King of Aragon, the Christian king of Aragon.

And then Alfonso attacks, attacks Valencia. And Rodrigo, in this amazing counter move, I don't know what you would call it in football, but instead of defending Valencia, he just counter-attacks. attacks Alfonso's lands Nahara and Rioja so Alfonso has to give up the siege and return home. Nice. It sounds like just such a

men thing this my camp is bigger than your camp kind of thing. It's very petty as well isn't it? Very petty. It's very like your camp's in my camp's my captain friend about it. You're on the same side guys. This is why men need to talk. Okay so he counter-attacks

and he wins. He's left ex-employer for the third time. They've fallen out constantly. It's sort of on off, on off, on off. What's next for Rodrigo? Like, you know, he can't just keep this up, Kenny. He can't just keep allying and falling out with people. Well, he actually has his big break at this point. Oh, right. So as the Almoravits are conquering some of the lands of the Iberian Peninsula, there's an uprising in Valencia. And this ruler, Al-Qadir, who had been installed by Alfonso VI, as his protege, who is very, who is very, very, very unpopular, is now overthrown, captured and executed,

and the city's judge, Ibn Jahav, takes power. So this is, just to check, these are Muslims appointed by a Christian king. Al-Qadir was a Muslim. He used to be the king of Toledo. So when Alfonso annexed Toledo, he just moved him to a different type of. He just transferred him. Yes. You're playing in the youth team now, sorry.

Okay. And where is Valencia in the geography of Spain? Is it West Spain? So, well, it's on the coast, eastern coast, and it was quite far down in Muslim lands at this point. On the eastern coast, okay, thank you. Rodrigo has seized this city. He seized Valencia. Well, so, I mean, he had been collecting tribute from there. And so he has men who were then either captured during this rebellion or had to flee. and it's at this point that Rodrigo decides to besiege the city. Right. So the siege means surrounding the city, starving it, raiding the surrounding countryside. According to one report, he actually had people who try to come out of the city to look for food burned alive.

So the siege is brutal, but it's actually not so much using, you know, military machinery against the walls. It's just a waiting game. Right, so you're starving the city out. Yeah. And Ibn Jahav has tries to get help from the Almoravids, who do send an army, but torrential rains and Rodrigo cutting the dams of the River Turia floods the area between the Almoravids and Rodrigo's army.

So Rodrigo basically foils this plan to get outside help. And in the end in 1094, Valencia surrenders, and Rodrigo becomes its ruler now, so he officially calls himself and is called by, his subjects, prince, which is a kind of term for rulers who are not kings. So it's not quite a king, but it's an independent. Princep means first in Latin, doesn't it? It's sort of the kind of the top man.

Yeah, and this was the kind of title used for, for example, counts of Barcelona. So people who were independent rulers. So he's Prince Rodrigo. Okay, yeah, he's gone up. It's kind of worked out for him. Yeah, yeah. How do you think he rules over Valenti? Do you think he's a kind, progressive ruler, a man of great intellect and

compassion. Why are you? I think from the preem of that question is all going to go with no, no, no, no. Okay, fair. Nora, maybe I led a bit too heavily on the kind of, you know, he's a good guy. I mean, medieval princes and kings, they're pretty brutal as a general rule. Yes, but also I have to say that the medieval sources were not particularly interested in what kind of a ruler he was. They were much more interested in his military feats.

So they talk about his battles and how he devastated enemy lands, but they say very little about how he ruled. What we know is that he reestablished the bishopric of Valencia, and he asked for the papacy to basically directly subject this bishopric to papal power, so it may also confer more independence on him and perhaps kind of some plan to eventually become a king. Apparently initially he appointed a Muslim official to oversee his Muslim subjects, but he also clearly was accused of oppressing and extorting the Muslims. There were waves of emigration and expulsion, and according to one account, he had books read out to him and particularly enjoyed the biography of a Muslim general who had lived a long time previously. But at the same time, Muslim authors wrote about him very negatively, Ibn Bassem,

who was an Andalusi Muslim author at the beginning of the 12th century, recounted how Rodrigo had this judge, Ibn Jahav, also burned to death at the start of his reign and called him a clever but greedy tyrant swollen with pride. And these Arabic texts basically have all sorts of epiths for him, not very kind, enemy dog accursed the oppressor. Rodrigo the oppressor Not really like a very popular boss then Toussaint

Do you think this is going to work out for him long term What do you think his chances are of success I think he's going to end up With not much of a kingdom left If he keeps sitting everyone on fire I think I don't know if that's sustainable You think he's burning through the goodwill Quite literally

Yes, quite literally Okay Nora is Tucson's caution well-founded? Well, he might have run into that problem, but actually he died. He died in 1099 of natural causes, unlike the film, and he did not leave a male heir,

so no son who could have... Oh, so the son in the source that you talked about, the Diego son, he would have died. He died. And his daughters would inherit it? His widow Jimena inherited. His daughters were married. They were married,

but it was Jimena who then... ruled Valencia for three years, but then the Almoravids started to besiege Valencia, and Jimena asked Alfonso VI for help. So at this point, yeah, it's difficult to hold the city against this army. And Alfonso does arrive with an army. He does? Yeah, he does. Oh, fair play, Alfonso.

He doesn't seem to bear grudges, yes. He had every reason to be like, nope. I mean, also, of course, remember she was a kinswoman of his. and of course Rodrigo was already dead. So, yeah, he arrives with an army, lifts the siege, but he cannot maintain the defense of Valencia so far away from his own land. So basically the city is evacuated. Everybody with their possessions go north to Castile.

Alfonso has the city burned, so not to leave it intact for the Almoravids. And Jimena also takes Rodrigo's remains and has him reburied in a monastery, San Pedro de Cardena. Wow. So she takes her dead hubby with her and the bones are repositioned, relocated to a monastery. San Pedro de Cadeña, where is that in Spain?

So that's not very far from Burgos. Okay, all right. So is that a sort of nice monastery? Is that a good spot? It's a very nice spot. It's very far now from any kind of public transportation. Right. But it's, so it's quite secluded.

And of course, most of it is... You would have liked that. Yes. you're like uninterrupted. Exactly. He's got his pillow. He's having enjoying his kip. Okay. So Rodrigo and Jimena, they both live quite alive to, Soren. How do you feel about him in particular? Are you a fan of what we've told you?

You know what? I am. I can relate. Yeah. I think he was just a pragmatic guy trying to make his way in the world doing what he knew he could do, which was killing and burning people. Not a bit less relate to, but the freelance bit. I can get on board with. Think you know Sherlock Holmes? This is the full case file. All 60 stories,

brought to life by BBC Radio 4, with a cinematic cast and edge of your seat storytelling. Footprints? Footprints. A man's or a woman's? Mr. Holmes. They were the footprints of a gigantic hound.

Start listening to Sherlock Holmes, the complete BBC collection, wherever you get your audience. Don't get up yet though, Tucson. We're not done yet because we're going to now talk about the kind of the afterlife of Rodrigo, or rather El Cid, this whole other guy that he becomes. So the historical man we've talked about, we know who he is. But how do you think the story of the El Cid starts to be created?

What do you think is the kind of initial turning point? Well, I mean, it was no one in that city because they were all burnt alive. So I'm actually quite baffled after who was left to spread this story about Cid, to be honest. and who wasn't smoking. I'm not quite sure who it was. I mean, Nora, the... It wasn't Alfonso Isaac.

He hated him. But who was? Where did else he come from? I mean, Nora, as a medieval historian, I'm going to pitch two things at you. One would be the Crusades. The first crusade has happened by this point. The second one would be the Reconquista,

which is the Christian reconquest of Spain, this process that happens over three, four centuries. Is it a religious revival? So part of it is religious, although the Reconquista is a bit more complicated. It's the kind of later invention in that form. But a series of people and reasons, actually, partly his descendants, they didn't go up in smoke. So his daughters obviously had children.

And actually some of his descendants became kings eventually in the Iberian Peninsula, kings of Castile. So they have an interest in kind of whitewashing their ancestor. There is this kind of religious rhetoric, which is indeed important. And in the 12th, 13th centuries especially, the war that was. still a much messier war on the ground, but it was increasingly accompanied by a kind of ecclesiastical rhetoric, which presented it at least as sort of Christian war against Muslims. It wasn't quite matching realities, but you have that very strong rhetoric of the restoration of Christian lands. Two more reasons, really. One was the creation of a prestigious past for Castile, because Castile

by the 13th century became the most important Christian kingdom, but at the start, it didn't have a particularly illustrious beginning. So now they're looking for Castilian heroes. So here is Elthid. And then finally, the monastery, the monastery of Saint Pedro de Cardena, where he's buried. The monks are fantastic producers of all kinds of stories and tales and really foster. Yes, really foster his cult. They kind of create these fictional links between the live, Rodriguez, if he had already sort of

chosen the monastery in all kinds of ways. And they, of course, want to attract donations and also have this very prestigious patron. And they actually try to have him canonized as a saint eventually. Oh, really? And Tucson, in one medial text, El Cid's death was famously rewritten. Right. You could probably guess what they say, because I think you alluded to it at the beginning of the show. Do you know what it says?

Is it that he rides his horse even though he's dead? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, he... Which sounds weird. And inspired his men. To victory, was it? Yeah, right. Yes, Nora, the legend, Leandria de Cadeña,

tells us what, they strap into a horse and sort of go, gee it up, you know, and off he goes, riding into battle. Well, yes, although it's kind of even more intriguing than that, because according to the story, which was written in the 13th century and then incorporated into the official court chronicles of the Castilian king.

The horse was also dead. No, although the horse could also be an important player later. But according to this, St. Peter... Comes to a king as well. I'm going to get on this, actually. I'm going to get on this economy. I'm not making way enough money as the horse. I'm going to be a ruler, actually.

I've changed my mind. So St. Peter appears to Rodrigo for telling his death and a victory after death. Wow. So then... Good news, bad news. Yeah, exactly. Which one do you want first?

And Rodrigo prepares for this for seven days. He doesn't eat, he just drinks a bit of water mixed with myrrh and balsam. So he basically is embalmic himself. Wow. He's still alive. And joins on his wife and closest followers to prepare his corpse for this posthumous victory. So indeed he dies, a Muslim army led by Bukhar attacks. For nine days, they fight against them.

And of course, people don't know what's going on. Rodrigo doesn't come, doesn't appear. And then after that, they put him in his armor, strap him on his horse, fix his sword in his hand. And together with the army, he sort of charges out, helped by no other than sent James the Apostle along with a heavenly host. So I think you cannot do better than that. And of course, they defeat the Muslim army.

The text also then deprives the Muslims of the victory of taking, of retaking Valencia, because according to this, Rodrigo wanted to be buried at San Pedro de Cardena. So immediately after this victory, they take the corpse to be buried. And everybody wants to participate. So the whole town is empty because all the inhabitants go to bury him in San Pedro. So the Muslims can take the city. So it's not an evacuation. It's just all gone to the funeral.

Yeah, exactly. A different take on an open casket funeral, isn't it? Well, actually, if I can, because the story goes on. The corpse is so intact that Jimenez doesn't want him buried. So for 10 years he actually sits on a kind of stool in the church. Amazing. He performs miracles and then the tip of his nose falls off and then they bury him. And just one line about the horse, because according to the same text,

the horse is then taken very good care of. at the monastery. So he has this very long, nice life, and they make sure that there are lots of fillies, so his line is perpetuated. I'm sorry, what is this text? And what was the person who wrote that text smoking? Because this is...

You want some of that. But he was a monk, I'm afraid. Let's jump forward. So he's called Elfid by this point, right? The name Rodrigo has sort of turned into the Lord. Let's get to Napoleonic Times. In 1808, Napoleon invaded Spain. I don't know if you know that.

It's not that well known here, unless people are fans of Sharp. And he brings with him a huge army and these soldiers, and they bring, of course, generals and officers and so forth. And there is a sort of tension when they get to the tomb of Rodrigo El Cid. Because the soldiers and the generals don't agree on what to do, right? Can you tell us a story? Yeah, so the soldiers initially just loot the tomb. They're probably looking for gold jewels, but they also scatter the remains,

so they don't really care. But various Frenchmen do care. And of course, through Cornet's drama about the Sid, he's already well known in France as well. Oh, so a French play is... So the French play is kind of, yeah, made him known in France. According to one version, the man who became the director of what is now the Louvre Museum,

Dominique Vivant, Baron de Nond, kind of gathered to the remains and put them back in the sarcophagus. So there's a painting of that. But according to another account, this could not have happened because another Frenchman, a general in Napoleon's army, who was also appointed governor of old Castile, vindicated to himself this kind of deed of saving the remains. And this guy goes by the very fetching name of Paul, Charles, Francois, Audrey, Henri Diodonnet, Thierbeau. And he decided that he wanted. How many names do you want? Yeah.

He decided that he needs to show the locals that the French are not horrid. barbarians. So he decides to have a very big tomb, elaborate tomb, erected in Burgos, so in a very visible kind of central place and have the remains of the Thid reburied in this tomb. In the meantime, waiting for this tomb to be constructed, he has the bones wrapped up and stores them under his bed. Okay. You lost me at that bit. What's the thinking there? Keeping, he's afraid people will steal the bones.

So then they finish this big tomb and with a great pomp and circumstance and all the local authorities and great fanfare, they rebury the remains and Thiebo congratulates himself that he is now getting the respect of the locals

for this fantastic deed. Unfortunately, after this, suddenly this small Spanish scholar goes up to him and says, well, you know, this I never existed. So Thiebou is quite devastated, and now he really wants to know the truth. So he starts consulting everybody, and finally, another Spanish historian tells him that

he really does not believe that a man called Ruiz, to whom one can attribute all these deeds that are given to the Thid, actually existed. It's a creation of the monks who made him their Don Quixote. Right. And Thierbo is really aggrieved, but he doesn't want to let go. Just spend all this money on a tomb. Exactly. So basically.

I just slept on these bones. It's the most uncomfortable sleep of my life. I see you're very focused on sleep. Yeah, yeah, you're right. That is indeed. And so Thiebo basically decides that the existence of so many stories, so many legends, so many objects associated to the Sid are proof enough for the real. existence of the man.

Good. We can say that he's true. Rodrigo Diaz, we believe, historically, existed as a man, but the later legends are added on, and the horse gets added in extra as well. Okay, we do need to talk about a darker part of Spanish history, which, of course, in the 20th century, General Franco comes to power. Do you know anything about Franco? Familiar, yeah, kind of fascist, right, kind of in the same era as the Nazis. Yeah, that's right.

I think we could sort of call it a kind of nationalist, military dictator, authoritarian. This is a hard-line guy. And he uses history as a propaganda tool to lift up his regime. And that regime, you know, it's underpinned by muscular Christianity. Tell us more about that sort of that relationship between history, myth and politics. So Franco emerged, of course, as the victor of the Spanish Civil War, leading the nationalist forces. He was aided indeed by Hitler, Mussolini, and Salazar. And once he overthrew the legitimate government, he established his own,

and he was in power until he died in 1975. So for the Francoists, El Cid was basically this hero who was also a kind of prefiguration of Franco. So he was obviously a devout Christian who fought for the faith. He was a leader of the reconquest. He was a loyal vassal of Alfonso the 6th, but especially he wanted to create a kind of homogeneous Castilian-led Spain, which is of course what Francoists were actually doing. So this is when the reconquest is really born in a sense that this idea that the Spanish character was really formed through centuries of warfare, and this warfare was simply Christians against Muslims. Castile was the natural leader and always has been, and Spain had to become much more. homogeneous under this kind of Christian nationalist Castilian leadership.

And El Cid was portrayed as this first leader. And of course, Franco was called Caudillo leader, exact the same as Fuhrer. So this leader called was made the Sid very important. He also, of course, was already very much part of Spanish kind of identity. So a historian Romo Menendez Pidal wrote about him. So even Franco's adversaries try to claim. the SID to some extent. Yeah, that's interesting to me that the Republican army on the opposite side also said,

no, else it's our guy, because it's to do with the Moroccan soldiers in the army. So, yes, so they saw themselves as the descendants of this liberal Sidd and fighting against the Francoists as the Moors and kind of the Muslims in Franco's army. And Nora, by the Republican side of the Civil War, what do we mean by that? So society was so fragmented that Republicans were basically what we would call the political left and more liberal, wanted to reform Spain, Spanish society, wanted the separation of church and state, things like this. And the governments alternated between this left and right. And so at the time when the military coup was arranged, which eventually led to the civil war, there was a Republican government. Yeah, so not the current American political parliament.

party, of course. Absolutely not. No, no. This is Spain we're talking about. Entirely different country. There was more and more of a parallel being drawn by his followers between Franco and the Sid. So it's quite stomach turning.

Sometimes this adulation with which they talked about both the Sid and Franco. And of course, famously, Franco himself wanted to sort of take on the mantle of the Sid. He wanted to sort of be thought of as a modern version. So we've got a lovely, I say lovely, we've got a distinctive mural image we can show you here, Tussar. Is he riding a horse? Yes, he is. Okay, right, sure. Do you want to turn it over?

Actually, no, he's not in this one, isn't it? There's a horse, no, it's not horse this time, isn't it? I've seen another one, I think. There's a horse, but it's not here. There's a horse in the background. Is that Sid on the horse? Yes, so that's St. James and the horse. Do you want to talk us through this mural, Tucson, is that?

What is what? I want to talk about it? I mean, there's a horse. I think Nora's more qualified, but I'll give a good shot. So we've got, I'm assuming is Franco in the, in the centre of it? Yep. It's kind of dressed. It's like they put a man going through a midlife crisis.

The head of a man going through a midlife crisis who's taken up cycling, you know, and it's like late 50s, you know, like spent 10 grand on a carbon fiber bike, just racing against a passing of time. And they've just plumped that head. head on the body of a of a of a knight. Yeah. He's got a sort of pencil moustache sort of hitler style. He's kind of balding and quite sort of pasty.

He does look like a sort of basil faulty type character. It's quite, it's not very muscular. And yes, he's got a sword and he's wearing a suit of armour. And surrounding him are modern day, 20th century soldiers doing fascist salutes. They're obviously of his army. And then in the background, we have this St. James flying through the air on a flying horse. Yes.

So that's kind of the heavenly host coming to help the Christian cause. It's a bizarre image and deeply comedic to us, I think, now. But, you know, this is Franco saying, I'm a great mighty warrior, a man of great martial character. So the myth of El Cid becomes incorporated into the fascist authoritarian regime, but also is used by his opponents, the Republicans. Yeah, so I mean, just to say this was originally planned for the Bayadalas Caidos. So this was this big monument built with the Slavic. of Labour of Republicans. Franco eventually was buried there.

Finally, now his brains were removed. But this was to be put up there. It wasn't in the end. But it's supposed to be a kind of apatosis of Francoist Spain. So the Christian nationalist idea. It was painted by an artist. I've never seen anything looking more AI generated in my life.

It's such a proper AI slot. It is, isn't it? So there we go. Toussaint, it's been quite the journey, the story of El Cid, Rodrigo. how do you feel about him now? I mean, he can't control what happens to him after he died, you know. So I'm still, you know, I'm there with him about kind of, yeah.

I'm a Sid fanish. Okay. Yeah. I don't know what the Sidist. Sidist. Yeah. That is why I didn't say. No.

Sidest is that. A recidivist? I don't know. That's not word, is it? All right. Well, you know, I'm glad you're on his team. He definitely did some bad stuff, but I think most people in medieval history did bad enough. So there we go. Not really a great hero, but certainly interesting guy, and more

interesting than the movie made's out, I think. Like, you know, a freelancer come good. Or pad, I don't know. The nuance window! Time now for the nuance window. This is where Tucson and I sit quietly and snack on our murn and balsam so we can mummify ourselves for two minutes while Professor Nora rides into battle, hopefully still alive, to tell us something we need to know about El Cid slash Rodrigo Diaz. My stopwatch is ready. take it away, Professor Berend? What I think is very intriguing

is not simply how Rodrigo Diath was transformed into El Cid, but how that mythical construct then became a kind of mascot and rallying cry for both the right and the left. And of course, we talked more about the right, although we mentioned the left a little bit, the political left. And even, of course, today, now the new right and far right again uses El Cid as a kind of prototype white supremacist fighting against Muslims and migrants.

But very strangely, he's also been picked up as a model guy for peaceful coexistence and multiculturalism. So somebody who lived together with and learned from Muslims. So I think this is a very interesting mixture. And of course, the left-wing use of the SID goes back already to early modern times. when this legend that I mentioned developed about him enforcing this oath so that the nobles would not accept off once of the sixth until he swears he had nothing to do with his brother's murder, Sancho's murder. That turns the Sid into a kind of person who can hold kings to justice,

someone who's against tyranny, someone who's a Republican. And so in early modern times he's already represented in this way. And in the 19th century, when in 1820, Colonel Riego reintroduced the liberal constitution, there was a song written for the so-called anthem of Riego, written for this, which then became the Republican kind of national anthem. There, the Cid is really kind of the representative of the good guys, the liberals are his sons. So I think this is quite a posthumous career for such an opportunistic warrior. Amazing, thank you so much. Two minutes on the clock. I mean, amazing. One minute, 59. That was brilliant. That was great. So there we go. He's everything to everyone.

Yeah. I think for me, El Cid, to me, I'm going to use El Cid, like, when I have like a really bad gig, you know, when I like, really die, I'm just going to die. I'm just going to go like, like, strap yourself to a horse. And like, when I have to go to like, I don't know, you know, slough for a gig or something, I'll just strap myself off to the horse. right into battle. Anyway, that was lots of fun. Thank you so much for that fascinating insight. It's really interesting, isn't it,

how these historical figures can be multi-polarized. They can mean so much to different people for different reasons. So what do you know now? Great. Well, it's time now for the So What Do You Know Now? This is our quick-fire quiz for Tucson to see how much he has learned today. Toussaint, last time, I think you got a bonus point. So maybe we need to see if that can be done again. Okay.

Are you feeling confident? Look, Nora did set out incredibly. So, yeah, I think I've got a chance. I think I've got a chance, Greg. All right. Well, let's see if there's a... You don't sound confident. That didn't sound confident from you.

I believe in you. I believe in you, but, you know, 11 out of 10, it's hard to put off. So let's try. Okay. Question one. What's one theory about where the name El Cid came from or meant? There are lots of theories. So one of the theories is that it's actually derived from Muslim.

so the Muslims who were under him would call him the Islamic version of that which I don't have to have which means their lord their lord, that's right, the lord and my lord. Everyone was called a lord or no one was called a lord but that's, yeah. Very good. Question two. Who did Rodrigo work for after being exiled by Alfonso for the first time?

It was Islamic rule of it. Yeah, it was the three, it was the grandfather, the father and the son in Zadogotho, yeah. Question three, what strategy used by Christian kingdoms to plunderland in Iberia was Rodrigo big into? Similar to mafia bosses. Yeah, so it was a protection racket. They would go in, they would mess things up. And then they would say, if you don't want that to happen again, we'll protect you from ourselves.

Yeah, exactly. Take out insurance policy against me. Question four, name one reason why King Alfonso and Rodrigo fell out over numerous times. I mean, so many reasons. Where to start with these two? Gosh, I just don't think they were emotionally available to each other, really. But we're talking historical reasons. One reason why they fell out was Rodrigo disrespected Alfonso by placing his camp ahead of.

That's right, it's right. And they also at one point he didn't show up to an army because he didn't see the army. He didn't see it. He didn't see it. Question five. What Spanish city did Rodrigo become the prince and ruler of? Valencia. It was Valencia.

Question six. What was the name of Rodrigo's wife, who also, after him, ruled Valenzuela? Jimena. It was very good. Question seven. What role did the monastery of San Pedro de Cardena play in El Cid's life and later legend? So it was the last resting place for his remains and was the content factory, I guess, for his legacy. Pumping out the merch and the myths.

Very good. Question eight, in one legend, how did the Sid help his army despite being dead? He strapped himself to a horse. And he rode off into battle and inspired them. That's right. He had mummified himself ready for it. Question nine. Where did one of Napoleon's generals keep Rodrigo's bones

after the French troops had desecrated his tomb? Under his mattress. Yes, absolutely. Question 10. Which 20th century Spanish ruler likened themselves to El Cid, including in a famously bad mural? Is it Franco? Franco stroke Basil 40.

So he's done 10 out of 10. Can he get the bonus points? Question 11. What was King Sancho the 2nd doing when he was apparently assassinated? Right. He was relieving himself on a wall. He absolutely was. 11 out of 10, he's done it again.

Unbelievable. It's a miracle. It's a miracle. There's no stopping this man. The St. James is it apostle? He's flying over me with his flying horse and he guided me through to the wind. Thank you, El Cid. Gracias.

Well done, Tucson. Very impressive. Thank you, Nora. for a wonderful history lesson. Listener, if you want more Spanish history, we have episodes, of course, on Alan de Luce or Hernan Cortez and Melenzin. For more famous medieval warriors,

we've covered Joan of Arc. That's all the way back in Series 1. You have to scroll forever on the app, sorry. We've done Onglindor in Wales. And of course, for more Tucson, we've gone into American history with Frederick Douglass, an extraordinary man,

brilliant man, and well worth knowing about. And we did the course as the British Civil Wars. So we've covered all sorts of stuff together. Marvel episode. It was. If you've enjoyed the podcast, Please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to Your Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else.

Lucky you. If you're outside the UK, you can listen at BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we had the brilliant Professor Nora Berend from the University of Cambridge. Thank you, Nora. Thank you for inviting me. It was an absolute hoot. What fun we had.

And in Comedy Corner, we had the terrific Tucson Douglas. Thanks, Tucson. Thank you so much, having me to Greg. It's a pleasure. Very, very good. And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we peel back the layers and another larger-than-life historical mural.

But for now, I'm off the go and beg some monks the right flattering fan fiction about me after I die. Bye! Your debt to me is a BBC Studios production for BBC Radio 4. This episode was researched by Adam Simcox. It was written by Adam Simcox, Dr. Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow,

Dr. Emma Neguse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Jill Hugget. It was produced by Dr. Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer, Dr. Emma Nogus. And our executive editor was Philip Sellers. Do the wonder products that you see on your social media and supermarket shelves really deliver on their bold claims? Dehumidifiers, standing discs.

Nail polish. From supplements claiming to boost your mind and body? I've seen so many claims about creatine. To fake tans promising a safe, streak-free glow. I really like it. I'm Greg Foote and my BBC Radio 4 show Sliced Bread is back to separate more science fact from marketing fiction. I would tend to lean towards it being a positive. our suggestions come from your emails or voice notes, even if you're a bit under the weather.

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