You're Dead to Me - Eleanor of Aquitaine

Episode Date: March 27, 2020

Greg Jenner is joined by historian Gabby Storey and comedian Rachel Parris to take a look at the action-packed life of Eleanor of Aquitaine. She was the only woman ever to be queen of both England and France. She took to the seas on a crusade and packed her entire household with her. She bore ten children and defended a castle, yet most of her life was spent clearing up her offsprings' mess. So just why is this badass queen’s legacy eclipsed by that of her sons?A Muddy Knees Media production for BBC Radio 4

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, a history podcast for people who don't like history, or at least people who forgot to learn any at school. My name's Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and I'm the chief nerd on the BBC comedy show Horrible Histories. What are we doing this podcast? Well, we get together expert history nerds and exceptional comedy queens, and we have a good old gab about yesteryear. And today we are trekking all the way back to the 12th century, back

to France. And we're going on a crusade, a nice one, don't worry, to get to know the medieval she-wolf herself, Shakira. Sorry, no, not Shakira. No. Eleanor of Aquitaine. That's right. And today I'm joined by two shiny new guests. In History Corner, she's doing her PhD at the University of Winchester, where she specialises in medieval ideas of authority and queenship, specifically looking at Eleanor of Aquitaine and various other queens. It is Gabby Story. Hi, Gabby. How are you? Hi, Greg. I'm good, thanks. Thanks for having me. Pleasure to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, she's a BAFTA-nominated comedian, musician, actor and improviser.

You've seen her on the telly loads of times at Lives of the Apollo, Mock the Week, QI and recently Comedians Giving Lectures. But she's best known for her viral segments on The Mash Report. It's the wonderful Rachel Parris. Hello. Hello, hello. It's lovely to be here. Thank you for coming in. Rachel, I love Ostentatious, which is the improvised Jane Austen novels that you do every night with a gang of very funny people. That's right. You love it. My mum loves it. Mums everywhere love it. It's hysterically funny, but I'm assuming, therefore, you're properly into your history or at least 19th century history.

I am. Yeah, I really love history. I loved history at school. I'm really I love like historical programmes and stories and books and everything. I'm a bit of a nerd about it, but there's huge, huge gaps in the bits that I know about. I know about the really cliche bits like the Tudors and inevitably the Regency period because of Ostentatious. But yeah, I love learning about it. So I'm all ears today. Okay.

And Eleanor Rackertain, does that fill your brain with visual ideas? It's just a big expanse of space when you say that to me. It rings a bell. I think we might have done it at history A level, but I've forgotten. All right. Well, by the end of today, hopefully Gabby will fill that big space

with lots of lovely stuff. Well, that leads us on to the So What Do You Know? So, what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you at home might know about today's subject. And Eleanor has been described as the most famous queen of the Middle Ages, one of the most infamous women in history so I think you've probably heard of her you may know that she was the mum to Richard the Lionheart obviously a

great name and his brother John known as John not quite so good perhaps Eleanor's most famous representation is in a 1968 Oscar-winning movie The Lion in Winter starring Katharine Hepburn but if you're not into 60s cinema, you may know Eleanor from the mid-naughties BBC show Robin Hood, or more recently, the Robin Hood movie with Russell Crowe and Cate Blanchett, where Russell Crowe's accent started off in Nottingham, then headed to Sydney via Dublin. Quite an interesting one, that one.

As a Midlands girl myself, it was painful. That accent was wandering. It was historically fascinating, is what it was. So why is Eleanor McA Akerton such a big deal? What else is there to know about her? That's what today's podcast is all about. Gabby, can we start at the very beginning? Where and when was Eleanor born?

What's her family situation? Presumably she's properly posh. She is a little bit posh, yes. So she is born in 1124, we suspect. Possibly born in Bordeaux. There's about three places where she's rumoured to have been born. She is the daughter of William X, Duke of Aquitaine, and his wife, Aenor of Chateauroux, who, interestingly enough, was the daughter of William IX's mistress.

Already we started with incest. Yes, pretty much. So William X, Duke of Aquitaine, marries Aenor of Shatterow. His father, William IX, had an affair with a woman called Dangerosa. Her legal daughter was Aenor of Shatterow. So the grandfather got his mistress's daughter to marry his son. I mean, that's medieval history all over, isn't it? Yeah.

They took a lot of liberties in those days, didn't they? It's basically, have you ever met any other women? Yeah, you'll do. You're fine. She's one of three children. She has a sister called Ailis, or Petronilla, and she also had a brother called William, who dies in 1130. So, Aquitaine is where in France? Aquitaine is south of France.

So, at this period of time, France has a lot of duchies and counties. The King of France actually rules very little of it. Aquitaine, you've got Poitiers, which is a lovely little town, little county, lots of centres of learning there. So she's grown up in quite a nice town. Yeah. In quite a fancy bit of France, and she is a duchess. Yeah.

Rachel, what was your childhood like in Leicester? Similar? Very similar. I grew up in a medieval castle. It was really nice. Now, Rachel, this is where it gets quite complicated because while Eleanor is having her nice childhood in France, stuff in England is very violent and confusing. There's a thing called the anarchy, which sounds properly punk.

Sounds really cool. Yeah, I mean, it sounds cool, not cool, really. I'm guessing there's more death than I want there to be. Yeah, it's not really sort of Sex Pistols album. It's more sort of horrific civil war. Gabby, can we have the very brief summary? Because it's so complicated. 1135, Henry I, King of England, dies.

Had a son who died in 1120, so his daughter, the Empress Matilda, name might be familiar, is heiress. She's meant to become Queen of England. However, she is in Normandy at this point. Her cousin, Stephen Le Blanc, comes along, takes the throne. They fight for a good six years or so, on and off. Stephen gets captured at some point.

However, Matilda ends up giving him back. And eventually she kind of gives up, goes back to Normandy in the 1140s. Oh, yes, I've heard of Matilda and Stephen from The Pillars of the Earth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was such a great adaptation. Yeah, the novel, Ken Follett. That's right. And then it was a channel for drama.

Yes, Alice in Pillars, Matilda. Yeah. Yes. Basically, the heir to the throne drowns, the white ship goes down, and when Henry I dies, his daughter is meant to inherit, but Stephen is like, girls are rubbish, men are better. All the nobles completely forgot that they had sworn to support Matilda's claim to the throne.

Stephen comes over and they're just like, yeah, OK, we'll have Stephen as king instead. We want a good upstanding young man, please. None of these lady parts, no, no. Not this hormonal woman. So, yes, despite the fact it's called the Anarchy, it's not quite as violent as it might imply, but there are lots of skirmishes going on.

And the upshot in the end is that Stephen will rule, but when his son dies, Matilda's son will take over. Meanwhile, back in France, young Eleanor is growing up and she is starting to appear on the radar of other people who are thinking, right, OK, we need to get this lady married off. And she does get married, in fact, to the heir to the throne of France, Louis. He's 17 years old. How old do you think Eleanor is at this point, Rachel?

It being those times, I'm guessing horribly young. 12? Yeah, 13. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's still on the creepometer. It's still beeping. But that is sort of standard fare, isn't it? Medieval Europe. Girls tend to be quite young, anywhere between, say, 11 and 16,

usually when they're getting married. If you got to 20 and you weren't married, it's probably a bit of cause for concern. Yeah, you're an old maid. And Eleanor was the wealthiest duchess at this time. She was the one you wanted to marry. So she had lots of suitors potentially fighting for her. But when her dad died, Louis VI, King of France,

comes along and goes, Nope, I'll have you marry my son. I love the idea of people trying to court a 13-year-old girl in those days. It'd just be like, Look at this fantastic eyeshadow compact that I've got. How would it have worked? It definitely is troubling for modern standards.

What's interesting about her new hubby is he wasn't expecting to get married at all. Louis assumed that he was going to become a monk. He was all prepped for his religious life and then suddenly he's going to have to be king and he's like, oh. Why did he think that? Was he just religious from a young age

or was it an order of sons thing? It was a bit of both. There was a tradition that the eldest son would become heir to the lands or to the throne or anything else. And the second son would be intended for the church. So that would be Henry. The eldest son is called Philip. Oh, right.

And Philip dies in a hilarious way. Yes. Rachel? Well, I mean, not that hilarious at the time. But, you know, with the distance of history, hilarious. Do you want to have a guess at how he dies? Fell into a vat of soup. That's a nice guess.

That is a lovely guess. Onion soup? Very French. Bit of stereotyping there. No, his horse falls over a pig. That is funny. And he hits his head and, yeah, kapunked. His horse fell over a pig. His horse tripped on a pig. We've all done it. Yeah. and he hit his head and, yeah, kapunked.

His horse fell over a pig. His horse tripped on a pig. We've all done it. Yeah, we've all been there. Classic scrapes, you know, you've been framed. Those pigs, they just come out of nowhere, don't they? And so Louis is now going to have to get married, so he marries Eleanor.

Not really a kind of a marriage of great romance and sexual attraction, is it? Not at all. Eleanor is very much a kind of confident, independent woman, shall we say. She's used to a life down south where she's got all this luxury. And Louis is very much just interested in going to church, doing his prayers, staying there, fasting, all the rest of it. It's probably better for her. Yeah, I mean, given she's 13. Yeah, exactly. Could be a lot worse.

Not so great for bearing an heir to the throne. Yes, I mean, everyone in France is like, come on, get on with it. Now, there are a couple of reasons why it is quite hard to have a child at this point, because the medieval church puts quite a lot of restrictions on sexy time, even for a married couple. Rachel, can you guess what some of the rules might be? Oh, I've never heard about that. Were they banned on saint days or something? Could be.

Holy days? Yeah. Did she have to be wearing a particularly demure frock or something? Yes, you weren't allowed to be naked. Is that true? Yeah. She couldn't be on her period, couldn't be lent, could only be on certain days of the week, only certain times of the year. What?

Medieval historians have calculated there are only 45 to 47 days during which a married couple were permitted to have sex. Oh, my God. Out of 365. So, yeah. Although, when you think about it, it makes you wonder, and perhaps this is giving the church too much credit, but maybe because there wasn't other contraception then,

maybe that's how they controlled just people getting pregnant absolutely constantly. Maybe. Maybe that's like an early form of contraception then, maybe that's how they controlled just people getting pregnant absolutely constantly. Maybe that's like an early form of contraception. Possibly, although for Eleanor later on that doesn't really work out. But we'll get to that. Despite this there is a sort of weird story here. Louis gets excommunicated by the Pope in 1142. For a religious man

that is a real bummer. Wow, what did he do? Eleanor's sister Petronella who I kind of mentioned at the beginning. Petronella or another name. A-List, yeah. She catches the eye of Louis' cousin, Raoul of Vermondeur. Raoul is probably in his 40s. A-List is still in her teens at this point.

Definitely creepy. Another one of those creepy interactions. Raoul is married at this point as well. So in order to marry A-List, he would have to get an annulment, which, you know, kind of goes against the church. Louis intervenes and is just like, yep, alright, we'll annul the marriage so you can marry

Aelis. He can't do that. Well, he does. And then the Pope's like, uh, no. So this is often seen as evidence of Eleanor's influence because, you know, Louis is a very pious man. Why would he choose to get him around with the Pope? Right, yeah.

The marriage gets annulled. This then leads to a bit of a skirmish with the Feebold Count of Champagne. Can you imagine me in the Count of Champagne? Welcome, the Count of Champagne. Champagne for everyone. During one of these skirmishesishes they go to this town called victory and attack it all of the villages flee into this church which then catches fire and burns down and all the villages are trapped in this church so there's quite a lot of people who die as a result

of this uh little argument over marriage raul can marry so that Raoul can marry a teenager. Yeah, yeah. And Louis is, like, shocked by this and starts repenting and fasting and all the rest of it. It's too little too late. But he's going to do the ultimate in the act of contrition to the Pope and to God. He heads off on a crusade, the Second Crusade. So we've had the First Crusade in 1099

and the Second Crusade is in the 1140s and Eleanor goes with him. This is a bit of a shock, because women don't go on crusade normally. Why is she going with him? Does she want to, or is he dragging her along? With Eleanor, she might have caused too much trouble if she stayed in France by herself. No, Louis' advisors

weren't a big fan of her. She had shown that she wanted to be involved in politics, and as well, at this point, they've only had one child, Marie, who's a girl. She can't inherit the French throne, so it's kind of, OK, she goes with him on crusade and chances are they might have another heir along the way. Sure. It's nothing like a really romantic holiday to get those juices flowing. Just casually crusading.

Yes, darlings, I've booked us into a very fancy hotel in Jerusalem. Let's go. I don't know much about the crusades apart from how awful they were but who was driving the Crusades? Well the second Crusade's an interesting one isn't it because it's a sort of sequel. From the first Crusade you had four Crusader states established. One of them Edessa falls because it's captured by Muslim forces. So the Pope Eugenius III at this point does a rallying call going come on let's go and save Edessa. Not very successful. Louis then goes, alright, I'm going to go on crusade,

make up for victory, everything else. And this kind of rallies some of the other Western leaders to go and save Edessa. So it was several Western leaders. Yeah, but this is the first time a king has gone on crusade, isn't it? They've got a coup here. They're like, oh, we've got a king. And then along comes Elendon and they're like, oh, we've got a queen.

And lots of the nobles follow suit. Right, okay. And then along comes Eleanor and they're like, ooh, we've got a queen. And lots of the nobles follow suit. Right, okay. And you also have a comrade III who is the Holy Roman Emperor. He goes along as

well. They get two for the price of one. Wow, it's like the celebrity edition of the Crusades. Yeah. It's like celebrity

coach trip. And is Eleanor travelling light? I mean, presumably packing for a crusade. You just want your essentials, T-shirt, toothbrush. What's she bringing?

She's bringing quite a fair amount of clothes. She's still taking quite a few dresses with her. She's also still packing her makeup and her cosmetics because, you know, all that hot sun and everything further east you go, you're going to need something to... So, yeah, she doesn't pack light at all. She insists on taking quite a lot of her household with her as well. And as Craig kind of pointed out, this idea of not having many women on crusade,

like you had your washerwoman and everything else. You'd have your old crone. Stand in the corner, old crone, and do my washing. Yeah, but it was quite unusual to have a queen and then to have her household as well. There are a few people sort of tutting and huffing, aren't there? Sort of going, this is not how it's done. Yeah. Yeah. The Pope was like, take the bare minimum. Eleanor's turned around and goes, no, thank you. I'll take all my stuff.

So did she have just like loads of luggage over several carriages? Yeah. Ships, carriages. Oh my God. Wow. Yeah. She's a queen. I mean, you know. To be fair. Come on. Yeah, she, carriages. Oh my God, wow. She's a queen. To be fair. Come on. She's a queen.

The first crusade has been a successful one, so they're all thinking this one will be even better. But it just goes wrong very quickly. Yeah, Louis and Conrad both disagree on which routes they should take. The French go one way, they decide to stay in Constantinople, where there's a little bit of friction with the emperor there. They are also ambushed and this is quite a sore point because eleanor had all this luggage so it's quite a long procession shall we

say of soldiers and the household and all the carriages and everything else eleanor's troops go up ahead where they're deciding where to kind of camp out for the night the mountain is then ambushed by these turks where all the vulnerable people are and where a lot of Louis' forces are. And this then leads to a bit of marital tension between Louis and Eleanor because her troops have gone off ahead and aren't really damaged

in the ambush whereas Louis and his troops kind of take the full... Even though it's her people who are basically the mugger's dream. Like, why isn't she the one getting hammered she's got all those the tourists overseas

with the bum bags exactly all their valuables hidden in a sock I love what you said about Louis and Conrad disagreeing about roots

it's so nice like you know the crusades of many of these times and it just all comes down to them being like I said turn left.

I'm sure you've said right. We'll take the A3. A3's a nightmare this time of day. You know, you want to go round the back. Take the ring road. And then they arrive in March 1148 in Antioch, one of the great cities. Elena meets up with her uncle, Raymond of Poitiers,

who is a stone-cold fox. Ooh. He is a hottie. Uncle Ray. He is the Henry Cavill of... Wow. I mean, everybody loves Raymond, is the obvious joke,

but his name is Raymond the Handsome. Oh, what a dream. Yeah. And there are rumours that she has the hots for her uncle. Again, back to the incest. Yes. Are these rumours just sort of like tittle-tattle? Is there a little bit of a crush going on?

It's all tittle-tattle. I don't know if I want to say I'm afraid when we're then supporting incest if we go the other way. Sadly, the incest isn't true. if we go the other way. Sadly, the incest isn't true. Yeah. The chroniclers at the time accuse Eleanor of committing incest because there's all these disagreements between her and Louis and they kind of put Eleanor's successes

and Eleanor's decision to support Raymond when they're deciding which towns to attack. As division, Eleanor's listening to Raymond, therefore they were having an affair. Louis is like, well, I want to go to attack. As division, oh, Eleanor's listening to Raymond, therefore they were having an affair. Louis is like, well, I want to go to Jerusalem. And Eleanor's like, well, I want a divorce. Oh, slightly different path. Slightly different path.

Again, arguments about the route. Louis is not going to give her a divorce. But there is this sort of gradual breaking down of the marriage, isn't there? There's been lots of marital tensions between Eleanor and Louis. And Eleanor argues the fact they were related too closely is a reason why they should get annulment.

But if Louis and Eleanor get an annulment, then Louis loses Aquitaine. He loses all Eleanor's wealth and resources. The Second Crusade is a disaster and Louis has failed. He heads home with Eleanor, his tail between his legs. It's all going horribly wrong.

Their marriage is breaking up. But they get some very interesting marriage advice from quite a famous person. It's quite a surprising marriage counsellor. Do you want to guess who that might be? I'll give you a clue. They're in Italy. In Italy. Ancestor of Casanova.

No, I don't know. It's the Pope. From the Pope? Yeah. What does he know about it? Well, I mean, the world's most famous virgin. Yeah. Yeah.

What does he know about it? Well, I mean, the world's most famous virgin. Yeah. Yeah, he's like, what you need is just a really good bonking session. And so he genuinely blesses a special shag bed. Wow. And he's like, I've prepared a bed for you. It's very nice.

Is it in the Vatican? Yeah, it's in the Vatican. Wow. Yeah, all these tapestries around it. Sprinkle some special herbs. It's like, you know, probably three hours of praying over them beforehand,

and yeah, blesses them. That's right, go forth and procreate. Amazing. We've laid on some dill. Don't worry about that. It'll go everywhere.

Incredible. Yeah, so that's slightly surprising. I mean, he was called Pope Eugenius III. What I'm pitching here is basically a prequel to sex education. I want him to play the sort of awkward virgin at high school, telling everyone else how to have sex.

I like the idea that because he's not having any himself, although popes in those days, who knows? Like, you know, sort of wandering around the Vatican, just thinking, what's the best sex room for them? What's the most erotic place in the Vatican? I mean, it's a very beautiful place. What's got the best hanging? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Will this turn them on? Presumably they try it out, I don't know. Vaguely successful in that they do stay together for a little bit longer and they do have another daughter. But it's not a boy, it's not an heir, so it hasn't quite worked out. Pointless. A pointless child.

It's a little girl called Alice who is exactly totally unwanted you know I'm sure she's lovely. Is it around this time then that Eleanor's eye is drawn to a hot young fella called Henry? Yes once Alice is born Eleanor is very much look I can only give you girls this marriage is pointless on, let's get the annulment going. Geoffrey of Anjou, so husband of the Empress Matilda, who we briefly looked at earlier. He's come to France at the royal court to see Louis with his son Henry for peace talks, because Geoffrey is now Duke of Normandy, Count of Anjou, he's got all these lands. So this is the moment where we suspect Henry and Eleanor meet for the first time. And Eleanor, with an eye to her annulment, is perhaps weighing up some of the options. She knows she needs to get married again because of her wealth and her resources.

Yeah, do you know what? Once this annulment's sorted... They're sort of on Tinder. They haven't broken up. She's sort of on Tinder just checking out who's around. And Henry Plantagenet is just there posing with a tiger or whatever it is. Plantagenet? Yeah. Right, okay.

He's going to be King of England. Is he going to be the first Plantagenet? Yeah. So he is the son of the Queen of England who has been booted off the throne, Empress Matilda. So he's waiting, basically, for his chance to become king. And suddenly Eleanor comes on the scene, and immediately you're thinking, power couple.

Definitely, because Henry, he's got Normandy that he will inherit from Geoffrey. They've got the counties of Anjou and Maine, which are in between Aquitaine and Normandy. And then Henry is due to inherit England as well. So you've got England, you've got all these northern French counties. And if he marries Eleanor, he's got Aquitaine, so he's got most of the south of France as well.

It's an absolute dream. Absolutely. And she's a hottie. She's 28. She's fertile, sort of. She's girl fertile. She can't do boys yet. She's a duchess.

She's got this land. I mean, she's a catch. Yeah, 100%. She is a woman you still want to get married to. If very old. I mean, 28. Basically dead. And so she manages to finally get her divorce.

The annulment from King Louis, who's like, fine, whatever. And then eight weeks later, down the aisle with the next... That is fast, isn't it? That is fast. No waiting. Sending out the invitations. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And interestingly, there's two attempts to kidnap her

in those eight weeks. So as soon as she leaves the French court, she's galloping back off to Aquitaine. The Count of Champagne tries to kidnap her. Let's please have more

of the Count of Champagne in this story. And Henry's brother, Geoffrey, also tries to kidnap her. Why are they trying to kidnap her?

To marry her. Force her to marry She's trying to marry Henry and these two other fellas try to swoop in and basically

force her to marry them. Wow, what a rocking time for women. Avoiding kidnap. Just when you're

trying to make up your mind, you know, there's swiping left and swiping right and there's people bloody kidnapping you. Yeah, absolutely.

But she does manage to marry him. She marries Henry on the 18th of May, 1152. A big, big wedding because he's going to become King of England. And then shortly after, King Stephen of England snuffs it and suddenly he is King of England, which means she has gone from being Queen of France to being Queen of England. Only woman as well to have both the queenships.

Oh, impressive. It's not bad. So she has basically swapped out being queen of one very powerful European country for being queen of another very powerful European country. But she also now quite quickly starts getting pregnant with Henry, who's a bit of a lover. They've got a real kind of chemistry. So we really start to see that she just really didn't fancy Louis. Louis in his monkish way.

From 1153 to 1166, she's basically permanently pregnant. Right. So what I said about contraception earlier, not so much. No.

I feel like maybe they weren't observing saint days. Possibly. Maybe. Maybe not. So she had two kids by Louis. Do you want to guess

how many kids she has by Henry? Five? Eight. Eight? Yeah. Ten kids in all. Wow you want to guess how many kids she has by Henry? Five? Eight. Eight? Yeah. Ten kids in all. Wow. I'm guessing not over, like, loads and loads of time either.

No, probably over 15 years. Yeah. I mean, that's a lot, isn't it? Yeah. My God. Yeah, it's quite a lot of kids running around. Mind you, do you know what? Great access to childcare.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah, five sons and three daughters, so. Oh, she has some sons. Yeah, she does. I'll race through the names of the kids. We've got Marie and Alice. Those are Louis' daughters. And then you get William, Henry, Matilda, Richard, Geoffrey, Eleanor, Joan and John. Where did she get her inspiration from? She went to one of those little books. The ten names in circulation.

To be honest, if any of them don't end in of champagne, I'm not interested. Yeah, that's a real shame, isn't it? These kids are all going to have to be given land and titles, which is in some ways great and in other ways will prove disastrous, isn't it? Because then every kid's like, and where's my castle? So there's a downside to having too many heirs. And the oldest son, William, dies quite young. She's married Henry, King of England, and her eldest heir is going to be called Henry the Young King.

So Henry, her husband, who's the King of England, is he a first? Henry II. Henry II. He's Henry II. He's one of the great kings of the medieval period, isn't he? He's one of the most famous. He kills Thomas Becket, which is not a great day at the office.

But he's one of the most famous he kills thomas beckett which is not a great day at the office but he's one of the most important in terms of law and the amount of land that they ruled over so like i said you've got aquitaine you've got these french counties you've got england and you've got them kind of like delving into wales at this point as well so they've got quite an expansive territory which is great in some ways but as greg's kind of just said the amount of sons they've got to divide that land amongst. How Henry decides to divide the land is that Henry the Young King will inherit England and Anjou when Henry dies, and then Richard gets Aquitaine. John doesn't get anything.

Poor John! Because he's the last born. Sorry, John. Geoffrey will get Brittany because he marries Constance Brittany, who's the heiress. Seems fair. Yeah, so they all get a bit. I feel like, you know, he wasrey will get Brittany because he marries Constance Brittany, who's the heiress. Seems fair. Yeah. So they all get a bit.

I feel like, you know, he was going to get Brittany anyway. It's not really a gift. And John gets nothing. Yeah. He's called John Lackland, is his nickname. Which is a real shame. Really cropping it in. Now, you've mentioned Henry the Young King co-ruling.

Weirdly, so Henry VIII, this is one of my favourite history facts. I'll bore you with it. Henry VIII was technically the ninth king of England called Henry because Henry the Young King was crowned as a co-king while his dad was still alive. Henry II was main king and then they had king-in-waiting and they crowned him. So Henry the Young King was literally crowned. And then the Henry after that was Henry III. I see, so they didn't give him a second or a third.

No, he's called Henry the Young King. I like to call him Henry 2.5. Yeah. Because he's almost a king, but not really. And actually, later on, he gets a bit grumpy about the fact that he's got this title. And he's like, but where's the land, Dad? Yeah. So what's the marriage like between Eleanor and Henry II at this point?

Because they've popped out lots of kids. Things are going quite well militarily, economically, but do things start to sort of sour a bit? They do a little bit. So where Eleanor is so constantly pregnant, she doesn't have that much time actually to rule Aquitaine and to exert much authority. She was involved in administrating lands,

negotiating with various nobles, still collects tax. So she's got income, she's got a bit of power going on. But as we move into the 1160s and beginning of the 1170s, things have definitely started to go downhill because Henry's bringing more and more power into himself. And as we will kind of move on to, there's a bit of tension with the sons as well in terms of Henry's controlling everything. Yeah, they're now moody teenagers, aren't they?

Yeah. And they've turned from sort of nice, innocent boys into proper arseholes. Right. Especially John. Yeah, well, I mean, John is going to be the worst king in English history, many people would say.

Young Henry is pretty like, where's my castle, Dad? Yeah. Richard is also starting to sort of agitate a bit. And Richard's sort of his mum's favourite. Yeah. Eleanor really sort of bonds with Richard. And then Geoffrey, you know, he's sort of milling around

and then John's just rubbish. So you've got these four boys who are spoiling for a bit of a fight, aren't they? Are we looking ahead then to the famous Richard the Lionheart? Absolutely. Is that him? Yeah, yeah. Is that that Richard?

I love the way you were like, Lion Tamer. And John, Awful John. Awful John. Absolutely. Is that him? Yeah. Is that that Richard? I love the way you were like, Lion Tamer. And John, Awful John. Awful John. Yeah. I didn't know that. All the Robin Hood people. All the Robin Hood stuff. Sean Connery.

Yeah. The fox from the Disney movie. Yeah, exactly. The fit fox of everyone's fantasies. Careful with everyone. I mean. No, I won't qualify. Everyone.

At this point, things get kind of awkward don't they yep so 1173 henry the young king doesn't really have any power he's just milling around with his friends kind of like oh can i have some money or can i do a bit you know can i have some pocket money and go out please dad i don't want to go to the latitude festival it's really expensive and eleanor is also bristling against this lack of power that she's got. And so they decide to have a bit of a rebellion. Eleanor gets her ex-husband involved.

Louise gives them some money and soldiers. That's the best bit, isn't it? What a power play. Yeah, yeah. Writing to your ex-husband like, darling, it was so great before. Help me out with my new husband. How's monkeying going?

Well, Louise remarried, hasn't he? Yeah. and he's had a boy wife number three he has a boy with yeah so 1173 you've suddenly got the sons the mother the ex-husband all coming in for a bit of a it's like modern family yeah exactly it's sort of properly awkward christ Christmas. So there's quite a few skirmishes going on and Eleanor gets imprisoned shortly after the rebellion. Henry kind of resolves things with his sons in 1174. Straight after the rebellion, she's thought to have been held in France,

but eventually she is transferred to Old Sarum, Salisbury, and is held there for a number of years. For years? I mean, 15 years, something like that? Yep. Is Old Sarum a place or a building? it's held there for a number of years. For years? I mean, 15 years, something like that? Yeah. Is Old Sarum a place or a building? It's a place.

It's a place. We talked about it in the election special, actually. Is she locked up in a sort of house arrest in quite a nice place, or is she in a cell? She's in quite a nice place. She still gets her food and her clothing and all the rest of it. She's not living a life of luxury like she's used to, but she's not impoverished and anything else. It's not quite like Game of Thrones being down in... Not in a dungeon, but she's also not being able to pop out to Harvey Nicks or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

All right. So she's essentially been captured in house arrest out of the political game. Or is she? Is she able to stay in the political game through other means? Not very much, I'm afraid. Gradually, she gets let out under supervision. And as we get into the 1180s, she's let out more and more and gets more involved. But she is very much still under Henry's control, even though she goes to Aquitaine and rules for a little bit. So how long is she in this prison situation for?

10 to 12 years. Whoa, that's such a long time. Yeah, particularly without Wi-Fi.. Whoa that's such a long time. Yeah particularly without Wi-Fi. Yeah that's so bad. Yeah so as the 1180s go onwards we get her moving about a bit more but it's only in 1189 once Henry dies that she gets fully like flowing out. There's more family discord to come. Henry the Young King, Henry 2.5, he dies of dysentery in 1183 so it's literally a shit way to go and John and Geoffrey join forces against Richard in Aquitaine, don't they?

So there's two brothers versus another brother over Aquitaine of France. So it's just like everyone's just at each other's throats. It's chaos. Yeah, the Plantagenet brood do not get along. It sounds like it. It's like, just resolve your differences, guys. Oh, well, the chroniclers often say

you know they're a red-headed devil's brood but to be honest with the temper some of them had you can kind of see why they That's why this whole like redhead stereotype has been perpetuated There's a story of Henry II getting so furious that he crawled on the floor and chewed the carpet just like he was so angry

he just ate the nearest thing I mean we've all been there. Geoffrey also dies in 1186, not a disease. He gets trampled by a horse, which is better than tripping over a pig, I suppose. He's doing a melee combat, which is like a sort of tournament. I think he gets knocked off his horse and then the horse stands on him. Yeah.

So that's a sort of violent death that's less funny than the pig thing. Considering how prevalent horses were in their lives, a lot of deaths from horses. Very dangerous horses. Maybe give them a wide berth. Right, so the family have gradually winnowed down and then of course

Henry II does die in 1189, which means the throne now passes to Richard the Lionheart. Right. So he's not yet the Lionheart, he's just Richard. But he is like, great, thanks very much, bye. He doesn't really like England at all.

He's there for like six months minimum. And then he's off. He's off to France and then he's off on crusade, isn't he? Where does he go to in France? So he's in Aquitaine for a little bit and then he's also in Anjou. And then because he took a crusading vow in 1187 with Philip Augustus

and they're like right lads let's go on crusade lads lads lads yeah yeah we're off to Ayia Napa to sort of

yeah we've got cheap flights is it on crusade that he gets the lion heart yeah that's what the story and if you want to

know more about that we talk about it a little bit in the Saladin episode in series one. So you can pop back and have a listen to that. But yes, he's out crusading, which means that his brother, John, is like,

well, maybe I should be running England. To be fair, someone should be. Who is? At this point, Eleanor's running England, really, isn't she? Yep. So she's not formally named as a regent, but she very much acts like she's a regent, like she's in control. When Richard goes off on crusade,

he leaves a kind of council of nobles in place to keep things running. But it's very much Eleanor who is still kind of, you know, crossing the channel, dealing with various skirmishes, having to deal with John because he decides to have another rebellion whilst Richard's... John! He's the problem child of the family. Eleanor is very much mediating between everyone

whilst Richard's off having a bit of fun. Richard also gets married whilst he's on Crusade. He gets married in Cyprus to Berengaria of Nabar. And Eleanor's actually the one who goes and fetches her, brings her all the way across Europe to Cyprus. Wow. You do feel like that's something that could happen today, don't you? The sort of leery

oldest son going to Cyprus and getting married to a random woman. Yeah. And then Eleanor trots all the way back and has to deal with John. So she's still being very busy. Bearing in mind she's nearly in her 60s at this point. Wow. And in those days that's like... Yeah. She's old. Basically busy. Bearing in mind she's nearly in her 60s at this point. Wow, and in those days that's like... Yeah, I mean, she's old.

Basically, medieval old is like 50, so she's doing really well. She's got a lot of stuff on her plate. In 1192, Richard the Lionheart is taken prisoner by the Duke of Austria. He's travelling back through Europe after his crusade hasn't gone so well, and he's captured.

And there's a ransom note that sort of arrives under the doormat. And then it's like, oh, God, what now? Yeah, so Richard is captured by Duke Leopold of Austria, who is a vassal of the Holy Roman Emperor. He then sells Richard on to the Holy Roman Emperor. So is he kidnapped just for money? Yeah, basically. Because he's the King of England.

He's worth a huge amount. So you capture him just for money? Yeah, basically. He's the King of England. He's worth a huge amount. So you capture him and then you sell him on eBay. That's absolutely bonkers. They just kidnap him. And then, obviously, the Regency Council in England get these messages going, right, pay up the money. You can have Richard

back. And there's to-ing and fro-ing. And John's like, no, we're fine, actually. I can do this. Eleanor appeals to the Pope, you know, does all this work, raising all this money to get Richard back. Eventually he pays the ransom and we do get him back.

It's a crazy amount of money as well, isn't it? It's a huge ransom. I feel like there's absolutely no sense of diplomacy around Europe at all. That kidnapping a country's king would be a diplomatically poor move. They're just like, why not? We can probably get a few thousand pounds for it.

Yeah. He turns back up in England for about a week and he's like, sorry. And then he heads back to France, doesn't he? Yeah, he comes back. He gets re-crowned with Eleanor at his side. No sign of the wife at this point. She was a fling.

He regrets it. Yeah. Off to France, do another battle. All right, mum, you hold the fort. Wow. She's having to so much still just be a mum to her two sons. Yeah, these two grown men who are just little boys. Yeah.

Richard dies in France, in Aquitaine, I think, isn't it? Wait, so Richard the Lionheart, who I've heard so much about, is hardly here, actually. Barely at all. Six months and ten years. Six months and ten years. And he's gone down in history and he's made off with that fantastic

nickname. Famously there's a quote, I don't know if it's entirely true, but there's a quote saying that he would have sold London if he could. He doesn't care about England. He's all about france and aquitaine but he is shot by a crossbow by a small boy on the battlements in aquitaine during a siege he's sort of standing there he's not wearing his armor i think no and the boy is using a frying pan to defend himself from arrows coming in and the boy is just like pinging away with this crossbow and the bolt bolt just hits Richard. Richard, and then he dies of an infection later on. So that's the end of Richard the Lionheart.

There's a lot of components to that death, aren't there? There's the boy, there's the crossbow, there's the frying pan, there's the infection. There's a lot to take in. It sounds made up, to be honest, but I believe you. He dies in 1199, which means John is like, yes, come on, finally. The last, the smallest. It's my time. It's my time. And John is like, yes, come on, finally. The last, the smallest. It's my time. It's my time.

And John is not great at the king stuff, is he? No, he is married at this point. In 1200, he decides to do off with his wife. Sorry, not murder her. He just decides to get an annulment. And marries Isabella of Angoulême, who was already betrothed to someone else. So he causes a bit of political tension there because he's kind of taken away someone else's betrothed to someone else so he causes a bit of political tension there because he's kind of taken away someone else's betrothed yeah so that's political error number one he's not got

much money because richard's kind of spent it all on crusade gets into battle with philip augustus and is encroaching on all of the angevin lands john ends up losing Normandy in 1204. Not the greatest thing. Like rule one on being King of England is like, don't lose the bits that you own already. I know where it is, guys. I just can't remember where I left them. Can't remember the password.

So Philippe Augustus is the son of her ex-husband. Louis the King of France has died and so Philippe Augustus is ruling. So she's sort of negotiating with her ex-partner's kid. That's weird enough. Richard and John had fallen out numerous times and she'd had to step in there. Now John's ruling and she's trying to be a good mum but he's a bit rubbish. And then John

gets into a bit of a hoo-ha with Richard's nephew, Arthur of Brittany. Now this is to do with who gets to rule England, isn't it? Yes, very much. Arthur is the son of Geoffrey. Some people support Arthur's claim over John's. And Arthur died in somewhat mysterious circumstances. It's often alleged to have been John's instigation, but we don't know.

Where did that mysterious pig come from? So, that makes sense. Because, actually, Geoff Jeffrey's the older son. Older brother. So it's his son. Which could inherit. That makes sense. Yeah, exactly.

So basically you've got an uncle and a nephew sort of situation going on, haven't you? And Arthur has besieged Eleanor's castle. At Mirabeau. At Mirabeau. So Eleanor is in this castle being attacked by her grandson. Yep, grandson. Grandson. Okay. So the family is in this castle being attacked by her grandson? Yep, grandson. Okay, so she's at the family tree.

It's mad enough as it is, but then suddenly she's like, right, I'm at war with my grandson. I'm friends with my ex-husband's son. My son over here is an arsehole. My other son, he's dead. My husband was a douche and I fought against him. There's so much going on. We have to acknowledge that at this point in her life, and maybe earlier, Eleanor must

have massively regretted carrying on having children, going on to have sons. Like with two daughters, her life was sweet. She's trying to retire at this point. She wants to go to Frontevaux. She wants to just live the life of a nun a little bit. She is nearly 80 at this point, isn't she?

Wow, I didn't know anyone lived that long in those times. I mean, she's properly, properly old. And she's still having to hold John's hand and sort of go, oh, my grandson's come to set fire to the castle, I better go and deal with that. She's trying to retire, she's trying to do the Sudoku,

but every time she looks out the window, it's like, oh, what now? I mean, John is implicated. Is Eleanor implicated in the death of Arthur? Only in a couple of sources. No one would believe she was involved, but, you know, chroniclers at the time love a little bit of gossip, anything to do with a bit of mis. No one would believe she was involved but chroniclers at the time loved a little bit of gossip, anything to do with a bit of

misogynist slandering every now and again. Ultimately, deep down women are a bit evil. I feel like that's the vibe from some of these stories. Yeah, very much. All the sexual scandal that crops up in Eleanor's life is very much to do with the fact that the chroniclers didn't like a woman

who had power. So she had her two daughters by the King of France and part of the annulment deal was that she couldn't see them again. Really? So she never saw them again did she?

No. And a lot of people would be like oh that's kind of cold but you know that's kind of medieval law isn't it? That's how it goes.

That's so weird and so different to how things would be now you know. So who did they stay with? Right, you're going to love this. Both of them got married to the Counts of Champagne. Yes!

The two brothers, they were both betrothed to them. Wives of Champagne! Not the wives of Prosecco. Very important to stress. No. Quality. Yes, the Count of Generic Sparkling Wine. Yeah.

I mean, even if those husbands were awful, in my mind, it's a victory. Yeah, you can't have an unhappy life if you're the Countess of Champagne. Yeah, if you're of Champagne, you're fine. Eleanor does die in 1204, having been born in 1124, so about 80 years old. Yeah. I mean, John then flails around for a few more years and he's a disastrous king. Is there a sort of immediate power vacuum where as soon as you get this amazing wise woman who's suddenly out the equation everything goes a bit wrong john's wife isabella ron guillem doesn't really step into the uh frame

as such and we don't know if that is because john is so controlling over her land and her income and she's very young when she marries john she's 11 or 12. Oh, it's creepy again. So yeah, there is this power vacuum where it's like, oh, mum's gone. Oh wait, she was doing everything for me. She was doing my washing, she was doing my cooking, you know. What am I going to do now? They really did treat Britain like a hotel.

So there is this massive vacuum in 1216. You've got the Baron's War, you've got the Magna Carta issue. And it does kind of fall apart once Helena's gone. And they lose most of their land in France as well. The Nuance Window! All right, well, we've reached my favourite part of the show, which is called the Nuance Window.

And this is where our expert is given two minutes to nerd out while Rachel and I fall silent for a little bit. Yeah so I'm going to talk about her as a mother-in-law because I've kind of missed out a bit. Great all right without much further ado the nuance window. Okay so Eleanor as a mother-in-law she's seen as kind of quite dominating she's seen as taking power where Berengar of Navarre, Richard's wife and Isabella of Rongolem, John's wife should have had more control. She is seen as holding on to the lands which should have been passed on to Berengar and Isabella well beyond when she should have had them. She still collects this Queen's gold well into her death in 1204.

She appears at all the ceremonies where we kind of expect to see Berengar and Isabella so for example Richard's free crowning when he comes back off crusade it's her that takes pride of place and actually I think it's been misunderstood how much of an important figure she was and why she would have taken president as we've seen she's got lots of experience in rulership in negotiating with local nobles and lords. And actually, that makes her kind of the right person to be taking president. She knows what she's doing. So it makes less sense for Beringeria to perhaps be present at all these political decisions and councils and having much input because Eleanor's got that experience. Eleanor is a prime choice as a regent during Henry's reign and during Richard's reign to be able to interact with all these other

rulers who she's worked with in the past. And actually, she's a really powerful woman. She's a competent political ruler. I don't think she pushed her daughters-in-law out of the way, but she was the right choice to be a ruler, to be the right person for all of this. So not so much monster-in-law as just sort of... The right person at the right time. Yeah, OK. So what do you know now?

All right, well, that is pretty much all we can get through now, which means it's time to quiz our comedian. So, Rachel, this is the So What Do You Know Now? This is ten quickfire questions, 60 seconds on the clock. Let's see how much you can remember. Here we go. Question one. In what year was Eleanor of Aquitaine born? 1124?

Yes, very good. What was the very punk name of the civil war in England and Normandy between 1135 and 1153? The Anarchy. Yes, the Anarchy. How old was Eleanor when she married her first husband, the King of France, or soon to be King of France? Thirteen.

Thirteen is correct. How did Louis' big brother die? Oh, his horse tripped over a pig. Absolutely. It's a classic. Question five. In 1147, Eleanor accompanied her husband to which famous holy war?

The Crusades. Yes. The second ones. Absolutely. Question six. Instead of granting Eleanor and Louis an annulment, Pope Eugenius III did what? He provided a bonking chamber for them in the Vatican. He did.

Very nice bet it was, too. Question seven. What happened to Eleanor on the 19th of December, 1154, in Westminster Abbey? Did she get remarried? So she was crowned Queen of England. Question eight. Why did her second husband crowned Queen of England. Question eight. Why did her second husband, Henry II of England, hold Eleanor in captivity?

Because of all the rebellions? Yeah. Because she was being rebellious? Basically, yeah. And her sons were revolting against him. Question nine. Name three of Eleanor's ten children. Marie.

Yes. Geoffrey. Yes. And Richard the Lionheart. Yeah, absolutely. You could also have Joan or John. There the Lionheart. Yeah, absolutely. You could also have Joan or John. There's a lot of them, actually. And finally, how old was Eleanor when she died in 1204?

I should be able to do the maths on that, but I can't. 80? 80 is correct. Yeah, very good. That's a nine and a half out of 10, because I think you went with marriage instead of combination, but I'm giving you that. So nine and a half out of 10 is very, very good.

Well done. I'm happy with that. And thank you for filling out of ten is very, very good. Well done. I'm happy with that. And thank you for filling my brain with knowledge that wasn't there before. Absolutely. The stuff has gone into the vacuum. I'm going to retain that knowledge for a week. No, it will definitely sink in. Where do you stand now, Rachel, with Eleanor of Aquitaine?

Are you thinking sort of Queen Bee or more kind of Cersei Lannister murderous matriarch? I think she obviously was a matriarch, but like really pushing what a matriarch is and should be like sometimes you know a matriarch is exactly what you need like a powerful woman who needs to take charge when her children are being absolute wretches which it sounds like they were it sounds like she was kind of brought from what you said like she was brought up for power. Yeah. And then through marriage, people kept trying to sort of, in a way, take it away from her. So I think that for her to have retained the power that she did, I bet she didn't even want it at the end. She was so old. She must have been knackered.

She must have been like, someone else do this job. Yeah, I'm going down the bingo. She deserves to sit in a reclining easy chair. And I, you know, I even respect her early choices of heavy luggage on the Crusades. You do you, girl. Duchess, queen of two countries, mum to ten kids, including three kings, grandmother of two saints, enemy of her own husband, enemy of her own grandson, crusader, captive, castle defender.

She was busy. Yeah, she did a lot. All right, then, that brings us to the end of the podcast if you've enjoyed today's podcast please do share it with your friends

or leave a review online make sure to subscribe to You're Dead To Me so you never miss an episode but for now let me say a huge thank you to our fantastic guests in History Corner

Gabby Story from the University of Winchester thank you bye thank you thank you for coming on and in Comedy Corner the wonderful Rachel Paris

thank you bye thank you very much and see you Fair Listener join me next time for more historical hilarity and scrapes, hopefully no pig-related deaths. And if you can't wait until then and you want to learn a bit more about crusading history, then have a little listen

to the Saladin episode from Season 1. You can find it on the BBC Sounds. But for now, I'm off to go and play Civilisation VI and pretend to be Eleanor of Aquitaine. Bye! You're Dead to Me was a Muddy Knees media production for BBC Radio 4. The researcher was Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow. Bye! Imagine you're living a very different life on the other side of the world. You live silently in the shadows. And then someone takes your child, disappears into the night with your little girl,

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