You're Dead to Me - Eleanor of Aquitaine (Radio Edit)

Episode Date: October 7, 2022

Greg Jenner is joined by historian Gabby Storey and comedian Rachel Parris to take a look at the action-packed life of Eleanor of Aquitaine. She was the only woman ever to be queen of both England and France. She took to the seas on a crusade and packed her entire household with her. She bore ten children and defended a castle, yet most of her life was spent clearing up her offsprings' mess. So just why is this badass queen’s legacy eclipsed by that of her sons?For the full-length verion of this episode, please look further back in the feed.

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. Hello, Greg here. Just popping in to say that this is a radio edit of the episode, which means it's a bit shorter and some of the naughty stuff has been removed, so it's a bit more appropriate for family listening. If you want to hear the full-length versions, scroll down to the original episode further back in our feed. Thanks very much. Enjoy the show.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. I was the chief nerd on the BBC comedy show Horrible Histories. Today we are trekking all the way back to 12th century France and going on a crusade, a friendly one, to get to know the medieval she-wolf herself. Yes, Shakira! Sorry, no, that's not right. Eleanor of Aquitaine, that's who I mean. And today I'm joined by two

shiny new guests in History Corner. She's got a PhD from the University of Winchester where she specialised in medieval ideas of authority and queenship, specifically looking at Eleanor of Aquitaine, which is very handy for us. It's Dr Gabby Storey. Welcome, Gabby. Hi, Greg. Thanks for having me. And in Comedy Corner, she's a BAFTA-nominated comedian, musician, actor and improviser.

You'll have seen her on the telly loads, on Live at the Apollo, Mock the Week, QI and Comedians Giving Lectures. And she's the new host of The Mash Report. It's none other than Rachel Parris. Welcome, Rachel. Thank you so much for coming. Hello. It's lovely to be here. Rachel, I love Ostentatious, which is the improvised Jane Austen novels that you do every night with a gang of very funny people. That's right. You love it. My mum loves it. Mums everywhere love it. I'm assuming, therefore, you're properly into your history. I am. Yeah, I really love history. I loved history at school. I'm really, I love like

historical programmes and stories and books and everything. I'm a bit of a nerd about it, but there's huge, huge gaps in the bits that I know about. I know about the really cliche bits like the Tudors. Yeah. Eleanor Rackertain, does that fill your brain with visual ideas? It's just a big expanse of space when you say that to me. Like it rings a bell. I think we might've done it at history A level, but I've forgotten. All right. Well, by the end of today, hopefully Gabby will fill that big space with lots of lovely stuff. So what do you know?

This is where I have a go at guessing what you at home might know about today's subject. And Eleanor has been described as the most famous queen of the Middle Ages. So I think you've probably heard of her. You may know that she was the mum to Richard the Lionheart, obviously a great name, and his brother John, known as John. Not quite so good. Perhaps Eleanor's most famous representation is in the 1968 Oscar-winning movie The Lion in Winter, starring Katharine Hepburn. You may know Eleanor from the mid-naughties BBC show Robin Hood, or more recently the Robin Hood movie with Russell Crowe and Cate Blanchett, where Russell Crowe's accent started off in Nottingham, then headed to Sydney via Dublin. Quite an interesting

one that one. As a Midlands girl myself it was it was painful. So why is Eleanor McAten such a big deal? What else is there to know about her? Can we start at the very beginning? Where and when was Eleanor born? What's her family situation? Presumably she's properly posh. She is a little bit posh, yes. So she is born in 1124, we suspect, possibly born in Bordeaux. She is the daughter of William the Tempt, Duke of Aquitaine, and his wife, Aenor of Chateauroux, who, interestingly enough, was the daughter of William IX's mistress. Already we started with incest. Yes, pretty much. So the Grand Forbier got his mistress's daughter to marry his son. They took a lot of liberties in those days, didn't they? Eleanor is

one of three children. She has a sister called Ailis or Petronilla and she also had a brother called William who dies in 1130. So Aquitaine is where in France? Aquitaine is south of France, so at this period of time France is a lot of duchies and counties The King of France actually rules very little of it So she's grown up in quite a nice town Yeah In quite a fancy bit of France

and she is a duchess Now, Rachel, this is where it gets quite complicated because while Eleanor is having her nice childhood in France Yeah Stuff in England is very violent and confusing There's a thing called the Anarchy. Sounds really cool. Sounds cool, not cool, really. It's more sort of

horrific civil war. Basically, the heir to the throne drowns, the white ship goes down, and when Henry I dies, Matilda, his daughter, is meant to inherit, but Stephen is like, girls are rubbish, men are better. All the nobles completely forgot that they had sworn to support Matilda's claim to the throne.

Stephen comes over and they're just like, yeah, okay, we'll have Stephen as king instead. We want a good upstanding young man, please. Not this hormonal woman. So yes, despite the fact it's called the anarchy, it's not quite as violent as it might imply, but there are lots of skirmishes going on. And the upshot in the end is that Stephen will rule, but when his son dies, Matilda's son will take over. Meanwhile, back in France, young Eleanor is growing up.

She is starting to appear on the radar of other people who are thinking, right, OK, we need to get this lady married off. And she does get married, in fact, to the heir to the throne of France, Louis. He's 17 years old. How old do you think Eleanor is at this point, Rachel? It being those times, I'm guessing horribly young. 12? Yeah, 13.

Oh, yeah. That is sort of standard fare, isn't it? Medieval Europe. Girls tend to be quite young, anywhere between, say, 11 and 16, usually when they're getting married. If you got to 20 and you weren't married, it's probably a bit of cause for concern. Yeah, you're an old maid. And Eleanor was the wealthiest duchess at this time. She was the one you wanted to marry.

So she had lots of suitors potentially fighting for her. But when her dad died, Louis VI, King of France, comes along and goes, Nope, I'll have you marry my son. I love the idea of people trying to court a 13-year-old girl in those days. It'd just be like, look at this fantastic eyeshadow compact that I've got. What's interesting about her new hubby is he wasn't expecting to get married at all. Louis assumed that he was going to become a monk. And then suddenly he's going to have to be king.

And he's like, oh. Why did he think that? Was he just religious from a young age or was it an order of sons thing? There was a tradition that the eldest son would become heir to the lands or to the throne or anything else. And the second son would be intended for the church.

So that would be Henry. The eldest son is called Philip. Oh, right. And Philip dies in a hilarious way. Yes. His horse falls over a pig. And he hits his head and, yeah, kapunked. His horse fell over a pig.

His horse tripped on a pig. Yeah, we've all been there. Classic scrapes. You know, you've been framed. Those pigs, they just come out of nowhere, don't they? And so Louis marries Eleanor. Not really a kind of a marriage of great romance. Not at all.

Eleanor is very much a confident, independent woman, shall we say. She's used to a life down south where she's got all this luxury. And Louis is very much just interested in going to church, doing his prayers, staying there, fasting, all the rest of it. It's probably better for her. Yeah, I mean, given she's 13. Yeah, exactly. Could be a lot worse. There is a sort of weird story. all the rest of it. It's probably better for her. Yeah, I mean, given she's 13. Yeah, exactly. You know, actually.

It could be a lot worse. There is a sort of weird story. Louis gets excommunicated by the Pope in 1142. Wow, what did he do? Eleanor's sister, Petronella, who I kind of mentioned at the beginning. Oh yes, Petronella or another name. Ailis, yeah. She catches the eye of Louis' cousin,

Raoul of Vermondale. Raoul is probably in his 40s. Ailis is still in her teens at this point. Definitely creepy. Another one of those creepy interactions. Raoul is married at this point as well. So in order to marry Ailis, he would have to get an annulment, which kind of goes against the church.

Louis intervenes and is just like, yep, all right, we'll annul the marriage so you can marry Ailis. He can't do that. Well, he does yeah and the pope's like uh no yeah so this is often seen as evidence of eleanor's influence because you know louis is a very pious man why would he choose to get him around with the pope right yeah the marriage gets nulled this then leads to a bit of a skirmish with the Fyodbold Count of Champagne. Welcome, the Count of Champagne. Champagne for everyone.

During one of these skirmishes, they go to this town called Vitry and attack it. All of the villagers flee into this church, which then catches fire and burns down. All just so that Raoul can marry a teenager. And Louis is shocked by this and starts repenting and fasting and all the rest of it.

It's too little too late. But he's going to do the ultimate in the act of contrition. He heads off on a crusade. The second crusade. The second crusade is in the 1140s and Eleanor goes with him. This is a bit of a shock because women don't go on crusade normally. She might have caused too much trouble if she stayed in France by herself. No, Louis' advisors weren't a big fan of her.

She had shown that she wanted to be involved in politics. And as well, at this point, they've only had one child, Marie, who's a girl, she can't inherit the French throne. She goes with him on crusade and chances are they might have another heir along the way. It's nothing like a really romantic holiday to get those juices flowing. I don't know much about the crusades, apart from how awful they were, but who was driving the Crusades? From the first Crusades, you had four Crusader states established.

One of them, Edessa, falls because it's captured by Muslim forces. So the Pope does a rallying call going, come on, let's go and save Edessa. Louis then goes, all right, I'm going to go on Crusade, make up for victory, everything else. And this kind of rallies some of the other Western leaders to go and save Edessa. Louis then goes, all right, I'm going to go on crusade, make up for victory, everything else. And this kind of rallies some of the other Western leaders to go and save Edessa. So it was several Western leaders.

Yes. Yeah, but this is the first time a king has gone on crusade, isn't it? They've got a coup here. They're like, oh, we've got a king. Oh. And then along comes Elendon. They're like, oh, we've got a queen. And lots of nobles follow suit.

Right, OK. You also have Conrad III, who is the Holy Roman Emperor. They get two for the price of one. Wow, it's like the celebrity edition of the Crusades. Yeah. The First Crusade has been a successful one, so they're all thinking, this one will be even better. But it just goes wrong very quickly.

Yeah, Louis and Conrad both disagree on which routes they should take. The French go one way, they decide to stay in Constantinople. They are also ambushed and this is quite a sore point because Eleanor's troops go up ahead. The mountain is then ambushed by these Turks where all the vulnerable people are, where a lot of Louis' forces are.

And this then leads to a bit of marital tension between Louis and Eleanor because her troops have gone off ahead and aren't really damaged. Even though it's her people who are basically the mugger's dream. The tourists overseas with the bum bags. All their valuables hidden in a sock. I love what you said about Louis and Conrad disagreeing about routes. It's so nice.

It just all comes down to them being like, I said turn left. I'm sure you said right. We'll take the A3. And then they arrive in March 1148 in Antioch, one of the great cities. Elena meets up with her uncle, Raymond of Poitiers, who is a stone cold fox. His name is Raymond the Handsome. Oh, what a dream. Yeah.

And there are rumours that she has the hots for her uncle. Are these rumours just tittle-tattle? Is there a little bit of a crush going on? It's all tittle-tattle. The chroniclers at the time accuse Eleanor of committing incest because there's all these disagreements between her and Louis. Eleanor's listening to Raymond, therefore they were having an affair. Louis is like, well, I want to go to Jerusalem.

And Eleanor's like, well, I want a divorce. There is this gradual breaking down of the marriage, isn't there? There's been lots of marital tensions between Eleanor and Louis. And Eleanor argues the fact they were related too closely is a reason why they should get annulment. But if Louis and Eleanor get an annulment, then Louis loses Aquitaine. He loses all of his wealth and resources.

The Second Crusade is a disaster. And Louis has failed. He heads home with Eleanor. They get some very interesting marriage advice from quite a famous person. It's quite a surprising marriage counsellor. Do you want to guess who that might be? I'll give you a clue. They're in Italy.

In Italy? Ancestor of Casanova. No, i don't know it's the pope from the pope yeah i mean what does he know about they do stay together for a little bit longer and they do have another daughter but it's not a boy it's not an heir so i think quite worked out pointless a pointless child is it around this time then that Eleanor's eye is drawn to a hot young fella called Henry? Once Alice is born, Eleanor is very much, look, I can only give you girls, this marriage is pointless. Come on, let's get the annulment going.

Geoffrey of Anjou, so husband of the Empress Matilda, who we briefly looked at earlier. He's come to France at the Royal Court to see Louis with his son Henry for peace talks because Geoffrey is now Duke of Normandy, Count of Bonjou. He's got all these lads. So this is the moment where we suspect Henry and Eleanor meet for the first time. And Eleanor, with an eye to her annulment, is perhaps weighing up some of the options. She knows she needs to get married again because of her wealth and her resources

yeah do you know what once this annulment's sorted they haven't broken up yeah but she's sort of wanting to just checking out who's around yeah and henry plantagenet is just there posing with a tiger or whatever it is plantagenet yeah right okay is he gonna be the first plantagenet yeah so he is the son of the queen of england who has been booted off the throne empress matilda so he's waiting basically for his chance to become king and suddenly eleanor comes on the scene and immediately you're thinking power couple definitely because henry he's got normandy that he will inherit from jeffrey they've got the counties of anjou and maine which are in between acrotone and normandy and then emery is due to inherit england as well so you've got the counties of Anjou and Maine, which are in between Aquitaine and Normandy. And then Emery is due to inherit England as well.

So you've got England, you've got all these northern French counties. And if he marries Eleanor, he's got Aquitaine, so he's got most of the south of France as well. It's an absolute dream. She's 28. She's a duchess. She's got this land. I mean, she's a catch. Yeah, 100%.

She is the woman you still want to get married to. If very old. I mean, 28. Basically dead. Basically, you know. woman you still want to get married to if very old very i mean 28 i mean like basically dead yeah basically you know and so she manages to finally get her divorce the annulment from king louis who's like fine whatever and then eight weeks later down the aisle with the next that is fast isn't it that is fast and interestingly there's two attempts to kidnap her in those eight weeks. So as soon as she leaves the French court, she's galloping back off to Aquitaine. The Count of Champagne tries to kidnap her.

Let's please have more of the Count of Champagne in this story. And Henry's brother Geoffrey also tries to kidnap her. Why are they trying to kidnap her? She's trying to marry Henry and these two other fetters try to swoop in and basically force her to marry them. Wow, what a rocking time for women. Absolutely. Eleanor, she marries Henry on the 18th of May, 1152. And then shortly after, King Stephen of England snuffs it, which means she has gone from being Queen of France to being Queen of England.

Only woman as well to have both the queenships. Oh, impressive. It's not bad. And actually, if you play the game Civilization VI, Gathering Storm, you can play as Eleanor of Aquitaine and you can be either France or England. Wow! Fun bit of trivia.

But Eleanor, she also now quite quickly starts getting pregnant with Henry, who's a bit of a lover. They've got a real kind of chemistry. So we really start to see that she just really didn't fancy Louis. From 1153 to 1166, she's basically permanently pregnant. Right. So she had two kids by Louis.

Do you want to guess how many kids she has by Henry? Five? Eight. Eight? Yeah. Ten kids in all. Five sons and three daughters, so... Oh, she had some sons.

Yes. She does. I'll race through the names of the kids. We've got Marie and Alice. Those are Louis' daughters. And then you get William, Henry, Matilda, Richard, Jeffrey, Eleanor, Joan and John. Where did she get her inspiration from? She went to one of those little books.

The ten names in circulation. To be honest, if any of them don't end in of champagne, I'm not interested. Yeah, that's a real shame, isn't it? These kids are all going to have to be given land and titles, which is in some ways great, and in other ways will prove disastrous, isn't it? Because then every kid's like, and where's my castle? Oh, no.

So there's a sort of downside to having too many heirs. So it's a bit tricky. Right, right. How Henry decides to divide the land is that Henry the Young King will inherit England and Anjou when Henry dies and then Richard gets Aquitaine. John doesn't get anything because he's the last born. Geoffrey will get Brittany because he marries Constance Brittany who's the heiress.

Seems fair. I feel like you know he was going to get Brittany anyway it's not really a gift. John gets nothing. Yeah he's called John Lackland, his nickname. Really dropping it in. Now you've mentioned Henry the Young King co-ruling. Weirdly, so Henry VIII was technically the ninth king of England called Henry. Because Henry the Young King was crowned

as a co-king while his dad was still alive. And then the Henry after that was Henry III. I see, so they didn't give him a second or a third thing. No, the Henry after that was Henry III. I see. So they didn't give him a second or a third thing. No, he's called Henry the Young King. I like to call him Henry 2.5. Yeah.

Actually, later on, he gets a bit grumpy about the fact that he's got this title and he's like, but where's the land, dad? Yeah. So what's the marriage like between Eleanor and Henry II at this point? So where Eleanor is so constantly pregnant, she doesn't have that much time actually to rule Aquitaine and to exert much authority. But as we move into the 1160s and beginning of the 1170s,

things have definitely started to go downhill because Henry's bringing more and more power into himself. And there's a bit of tension with the sons as well. Yeah, they're now moody teenagers, aren't they? Yeah. Richard is also starting to agitate a bit. And Richard's sort of his mum's favourite. Yeah.

Eleanor really sort of bonds with Richard. And then Geoffrey milling around, and then John's just rubbish. So you've got these four boys who are spoiling for a bit of a fight, aren't they? Are we looking ahead then to the famous Richard the Lionheart? Absolutely. I didn't know that. All the Robin Hood people. All the Robin know that. All the Robin Hood people. All the Robin Hood stuff.

Sean Connery. Yeah, the fox from the Disney movie. The fit fox, everyone fancies. At this point, things get awkward, don't they? Yep, so 1173, Henry the Young King doesn't really have any power. He's just milling around with his friends, kind of like, oh, can I have some money? Or can I do a bit? And Eleanor is also bristling against this lack of power that she's got.

And so they decide to have a bit of a rebellion. Eleanor gets her ex-husband involved. Louis gives them some money and soldiers. That's the best bit, isn't it? What a power play. Yeah, yeah. Writing to your ex-husband like, darling, it was so great before.

Help me out with my new husband. How's monkeying going? Well, Louis's remarried, hasn't he? Yeah. And he's had a boy. Wife number three he has a boy with. Yeah, so 1173, you've suddenly got the sons, the mother, the ex-husband,

all coming in for a bit of a skirmish. It's like modern family, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. So there's quite a few skirmishes going on and Eleanor gets imprisoned shortly after the rebellion. Henry kind of resolves things with his sons in 1174. Straight after the rebellion, she's thought to have been held in France, but eventually she is transferred to Old Sarum, Salisbury.

Is she able to stay in the political game? Not very much, I'm afraid. Gradually she gets let out under supervision and as we get into the 1180s she's let out more and more and gets more involved but she is very much still under Henry's control even though she goes to Aquitaine and rules for a little bit. So how long is she in this prison situation for? 10 to 12 years. Whoa! That's such a long time. Particularly without Wi-Fi. Yeah! That's so bad! There's more family discord to come.

Henry the Young King, Henry 2.5, he dies of dysentery in 1183 and John and Geoffrey join forces against Richard in Aquitaine, don't they? So there's two brothers versus another brother over Aquitaine of France. Everyone's just at each other's throats. It's chaos. Geoffrey also dies in 1186, not a disease. He gets trampled by a horse, which is better than tripping over a pig, I suppose. Henry II does die

in 1189, which means the throne now passes to Richard the Lionheart. He is like, great, thanks very much. Bye. He doesn't really like England at all. He's there for like six months minimum. And then he's off. He's off to France. And then he's off on crusade, isn't he? Which means that his brother, John, is like,

well, maybe I should be running England. To be fair, someone should be. Who is? At this point, Eleanor's running England, really, isn't she? Yeah. She's not formally named as a regent, but she very much acts like she's a regent, like she's in control. When Richard goes off on crusade,

he leaves a kind of council of nobles in place to keep things running. But it's very much Eleanor who is still crossing the channel, dealing with various skirmishes, having to deal with John because he decides to have another rebellion whilst Richard's... John!

He's the problem child of the family. So Eleanor is very much mediating between everyone whilst Richard's off having a bit of fun. In 1192, Richard the Lionheart is taken prisoner by the Duke of Austria. He's travelling back

through Europe and he's captured. And there's a ransom note that sort of arrives under the doormat and then it's like oh god what now yeah so Richard is captured by Duke Leopold of Austria who is a vassal of the Holy Roman Emperor he then sells Richard on to the Holy Roman Emperor so is he kidnapped just for money yeah he's the king of England he's worth a huge amount so you capture him and then you sell him on eBay. That's absolutely bonkers.

They just kidnap him. Yeah. Eleanor kind of appeals to the Pope, does all this work, raising all this money to get Richard back. Eventually, he pays the ransom and we do get him back. It's a crazy amount of money as well, isn't it? It's a huge ransom. I think there's absolutely no sense of diplomacy around europe at all like that that kidnapping a country's king

would be a diplomatically poor move they're just like why not he turns back up in england like for about a week and he's like sorry it's back to france doesn't he he dies in 1199 which means john is like yes yes, come on, finally. It's my time. It's my time. And John is not great at the king stuff, is he? No, he is married at this point. In 1200, he decides to do off with his wife, get an annulment, and marries Isabella of Angoulême, who was already betrothed to someone else. So that's political error number one. He's not got much money because Richard's kind of spent it all on crusade. Gets into battle with Philip Augustus and is encroaching on all of the Angevin lands.

John ends up losing Normandy in 1204. Not the greatest thing. I know where it is, guys. I just can't remember where I left it. So Louis the King of France has died and so philip augustus is ruling so she's sort of negotiating with her ex-partner's kid that's weird enough richard and john had fallen out numerous times and she'd had to step in there now john's ruling and she's trying to be a good mum but he's a bit rubbish and then john gets into a bit of a hoo-ha with richard's

nephew arthur of brittany now this is to do with who gets to rule England, isn't it? Yes. Arthur is the son of Geoffrey. Some people support Arthur's claim over John's. And Arthur died in somewhat mysterious circumstances. It's often alleged to have been John's instigation, but we don't know. Where did that mysterious pig come from? At this point in her life, and maybe earlier, Eleanor must have massively regretted carrying on having children,

going on to have sons. Like with two daughters, her life was sweet. She's trying to retire at this point. She wants to just live the life of a nun a little bit. She is nearly 80 at this point, and she's still having to hold John's hand and sort of go, oh, my grandson's come to set fires to the castle I better go and deal with that she's trying to retire she's trying

to do the Sudoku I mean John is implicated is Eleanor implicated in the death of Arthur only in a couple of sources chroniclers at the time love a little bit gossip anything to do a bit of misogynist slandering every now and again. Ultimately, deep down, women are a bit evil. I feel like that's the vibe from some of the stories. Yeah, very much. All the sexual scandal that crops up in Eleanor's life is very much to do with the fact that the chroniclers didn't like a woman who had power.

Eleanor does die in 1204, having been born in 1124, so about 80 years old. Yeah. I mean, John then flails around for a few more years and he's a disastrous king. Is there a sort of immediate power vacuum where as soon as you get this amazing wise woman who's suddenly out of the equation, everything goes a bit wrong? John's wife, Isabella of Ronguelem, doesn't really step into the frame as such.

And we don't know if that is because John is so controlling over her land and her income. And she's very young when she marries John. So, yeah, there is this power vacuum where it's like, oh, mum's gone. Oh, wait, she was doing everything for me. She was doing my washing. She was doing my cooking. You know, what am I going to do now? They really did treat Britain like a hotel.

So there is this massive vacuum in 1216. You've got the Barons' War. You've got the Magna Carta issue. And it does kind of fall apart once Helena's gone. And they lose most of their land in France as well. Pretty complicated. Yeah, it is. We'll have to get you back in for another...

Yes, please. Nine more podcasts. Just a sort of revision session. The Nuance Window! All right, well, we've reached my favourite part of the show, which is called The Nuance Window! Alright, well we've reached my favourite part of the show, which is called the Nuance Window. This is where our expert is given two minutes to nerd out while Rachel and I

fall silent for a little bit. Yeah, so I'm going to talk about her as a mother-in-law. Great, alright, without much further ado, the Nuance Window. So, Eleanor as a mother-in-law, she's seen as kind of quite dominating she's seen as taking power where berengar of navarre richard's wife and isabella rongolem john's wife should have had more control she is seen as holding on to the lands which should have been passed on to

berengar as isabella well beyond when she should have had them she still collects this queen's gold well until her death in 1204 she appears at all the ceremonies where we kind of expect to see Berengar and Isabella so for example Richard's re-crowning when he comes back off a crusade it's her that takes pride of place and actually I think it's been misunderstood how much of an important figure she was and why she would have taken precedence. As we've seen, she's got lots of experience in rulership, in negotiating with local nobles and lords. And actually, that makes her kind of the right person to be taking precedence. She knows what she's doing. So it makes less sense for Berengaria to perhaps be present at all these political decisions and councils and having much

input because Eleanor's got that experience. Eleanor is a prime choice as a regent during Henry's reign and during Richard's reign to be able to interact with all these other rulers who she's worked with in the past and actually she's a really powerful woman. She's a competent political ruler. I don't think she pushed her daughters-in-law out of the way, but she was the right choice to be a ruler, to be the right person for all of this. So I think we just kind of need to reconsider Eleanor's position as a dominating mother-in-law, as someone who actually deserved to rule.

Well, there we go go thank you very much I'm afraid that's all the time we have as well but before we go a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner we have the fantastic

Dr Gabby Story from the University of Winchester and in Comedy Corner we have the brilliant Rachel Paris thank you Rachel and to you fair listener join me next time

for some more historical hilarity but for now I'm off to go and play Civilisation 6 bye for some more historical hilarity. But for now, I'm off to go and play Civilisation VI. Bye! Hello, this is Marian Keyes. And this is Tara Flynn.

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