You're Dead to Me - Empress Dowager Cixi: from concubine to ruler of China

Episode Date: April 3, 2026

Greg Jenner is joined in nineteenth-century China by historian Professor Yangwen Zheng and comedian Sophie Duker to learn about the Qing dynasty ruler Empress Dowager Cixi. A contemporary of Queen Victoria, Cixi rose from low-ranked concubine to de facto ruler of China for nearly half a century, and lived through a dizzying array of events in China’s nineteenth-century history, including the Taiping Rebellion, the Opium Wars, and the Boxer Rebellion. Ruling through her son and then her nephew, Empress Dowager Cixi dominated late Qing dynasty China, and oversaw a variety of economic and military – if not political – reforms. This episode charts her life, from her entry into the Forbidden Palace as a teenager all the way to her death in 1908, taking in the politics and traditions of the Qing imperial court, her relationship with Emperor Xianfeng and her rival turned co-ruler Empress Dowager Ci'an, and her determined attempts to gain and maintain power.If you’re a fan of Chinese history, ruthless court politics, and complex women characters, you’ll love our episode on Empress Dowager Cixi.If you want to learn more about the history of China, listen to our episodes on the history of Kung Fu and the Terracotta Warriors. And for more fascinating characters with Sophie Duker, check out our episode on Ramesses the Great, naughty nun Benedetta Carlini and the Chevalier de Saint-Georges.You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past.Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Emma Mitchell Written by: Emma Mitchell, Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Dr Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Gill Huggett Senior Producer: Dr Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

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Mr. Holmes, they were the footprints of a gigantic hound. Start listening to Sherlock Holmes, the computer. complete BBC collection, wherever you get your audiobooks. Hello, and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today, we're bouncing back to the Chinese Imperial Court and bowing our heads in deference, as we learn all about one of the 19th century's most formidable rulers, Empress Dowager So-She.

And to help us, we have two very special guests. In History Corner, she's Professor of Chinese History at the University of Manchester, where she specialises in Ming and Qing-era trade and economic history. She's the author of numerous books, including the recent Railway Imperialism in China, a political biography, is Professor Yang Wen Jung. Welcome, Yang Wen. Thank you. And in Comedy Corner, she's an award-winning comedian and writer.

You'll recognise her from loads of TV, including her glorious victory on Taskmaster, and maybe you've seen her recent set-out stand-up show. But Daddy, I love her. And you'll certainly remember her from our back catalogue, including episodes on Ashanti Garner, the naughty nun, Benedetta Carini, and The History of Coffee, it's Sophie Duker. Welcome back, Sophie. Yay, thank you.

Shishu? Oh, God, I didn't want to say it because I was like gearing up to it, like a horse up to a jump and I was like, you're going to brutalise the most basic word in Chinese. Shishu? Shish it, yeah. That's pretty good. Yeah. Thank you.

Thank you. Sophie, your seventh appearance on the show. Oh, boy. Yeah. Wow. I mean, you don't get a medal or anything, but, you know, thanks. Yeah. I feel like it's probably numerologically.

auspicious. Yeah, lucky number seven. We've been all over the world together on the show. We've never done Chinese history with you. No. How are you with Chinese history? I think it's probably bad because I was educated in the UK. Yeah, did I? I don't know a lot about China. And what I know about China has probably been like filtered through quite a problematic lens. But I did go to China recently. I actually, I say I went to China. I went through Shenzhen

airport and it was a great experience. Great. I loved it. Does that count is going to China? It doesn't know. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. It doesn't.

It doesn't. It doesn't. It doesn't really is not China. And does the name, Empress Dowager, Sushi, ring any bells? I think I've seen it written down. I think it's like, I've probably also heard it, but I haven't connected it because of the spelling,

which in Roman, that is like C-I-X-I. That's right. In English, we spell it C-I-X-I. So I think it's probably hard to connect what I've heard to the name. I feel like she's one of these, like historical badass women, which maybe is slightly infanticising. She feels like she's an icon.

I hope we're not going to learn that she's like a terrible villain now. We will see. She's a terrible villain. So, what do you know? And that brings us to the first segment of the podcast, the So What Do You Know? This is where I have it go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Empress Dowjadet-sur, she is known throughout East Asia, where she's the subject of any number of films, and TV shows. But despite her decades in power, she's much less famous in the English-speaking

world than, of course, her contemporary Queen Victoria. Although, Sir Xi does have a brief appearance in Bernardo Bertolucci's 1987 film, The Last Emperor. So who was this woman who ruled China for nearly five decades? How did she cling to power for so long, and why was it never wise to accept one of her cakes? Let's find out. Yes. Professor Yang Wen, before we get into Sir Xi's birth, could you please paint us a picture of China at the time? This was the Qing Dynasty.

Okay. And they were from Manchuria. They are Manchus. They're not Chinese. They are people who lived in between Korea and Mongolia and southern Siberia. Right. So they roam around.

They conquered China in 1644. It's amazing. 500,000 people came down to China to conquer this country of 120 million. Wow. They adapted themselves. They kind of synod, what we call, synestized. They became Chinese, in a way,

trying as much to keep their own customs and cultures and everything. They ruled China from 1644 to 1911 until the revolution, two and a half years after the Empress Taoja died. Right. So the revolution, she died in November. November, 2008, and the revolution was in September, October, 1911. So within three years of her death, so you could see how important she was. Yeah, so she's the last Manchu, it's the last of the Qing dynasty.

Yeah, because after her, it's the little boy, the last emperor. Yeah. What does cynicize mean? It's a special word in our field to denote how China indigenoused foreigners, Right. Starting with people like Matthew Ricci, you know, the Jesuit missionaries who goes to China and wear Chinese clothes and speak Chinese. So by conquering China, the Manchus have lost their own homeland and cultural and everything. Nobody speaks Manchu today.

Right. And the center of power would be what we now call Beijing, but was called Peking then. Peking, yes. And there's other name, Beiping as well. So there's different names. And they lived, what was their palace like? What was it called? Forbidden City.

Forbidden for whom? The ordinary people. Ah, us, Sophie. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. You and me. They've been on the throne for four centuries at the start of our story. Yeah. Sofi, given that Suu Kyi ends up ruling China for this five decades stretch,

what kind of family do you think she comes from? Oh, a powerful family? Sure. A very... In terms of what? In terms of money, power, military. What's your vibe? I'm going to say military.

because it feels like I think Manchu people currently are a minority in China within China. But like it was also you set a small army that sort of conquered China. So I feel like they must have been a powerful military. Yeah, it's a good guess. Yes. Except because the Manchu warriors who conquered China in 1620, 1630 and 1640s by the 18, 19, century, they're gone. Oh. So their children

have been cynicized. Yeah. They didn't have to work because they get handouts from the government. So that's why we have the problem of opium smoking, of going to brothels. So they became decadent.

The Sushi's father is a government official. I mean, what was his title? What would he, what level of power would he have had? Yeah. So the children of the first, second generation warriors, because after they came down to conquer China, they also went to conquer Central Asia. Xinjiang, you know, the Uyghurs and Tibet. Yeah.

So the first few generations were warriors. After that, most of the children served in the civil administration. By her father, it was basically mid-level provincial, very low. Yeah, not very high in the echelon, in the political echelon. So he's sort of a bureaucrat. It's a bureaucrat. And I would say that explains her drive to rise up. Right.

Yeah, because his family counts on her. Right. I've called her Sir She. That's not really her name in childhood or her youth, is it? Yeah. This is her reign title. Right. Yeah.

So what's her dad call her? What do her family call her? Well, you know, there's a lot of controversy about her. She's like a controversial character. There's lots of debates about her. where she was born, what was her nickname. And some people think it's orchid girl. Okay.

Lannor. That's quite nice. Yeah. So because when she went to the court and taken as a concubine by the emperor, her title was Lady Lan. Lady L-A-N, which means orchid? Yeah, Lan, L-A-N is orchid in Chinese. And it's very common for Chinese people to name girls after

Flowers. Yeah. That's a lovely name, isn't her? Yeah. Her childhood, she's educated. She can read and write. Yeah. So even though she's, her father's mid-level, but they're Manchu. Remember Manchu are overlords. Okay. Yeah. So no matter how low you are as a Manchu, you're always higher than the Chinese. Oh, I see. Yes. I would say she had very good upbringing because she was able to read and write, which later is going to come into her. Absolutely. Without, you know, a lot of the concubines couldn't read and write much. Yeah, so she was educated in all this arts and play,

Popsichord, paint. She's a very good painter. Wow. And she could sing. So in a way, they were bringing her up, probably in the hope that she will marry up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, her father was caught taking bribes, Sophie. Hey.

He was caught, his hand in the cookie jar. Yeah, okay. So he lost his job in 1851 when she was 16. They returned to Beijing and he died. He fell ill and died. Of shame? Maybe of shame. Probably just some illness.

Yeah, yeah. May likely, yeah. Yeah. say, so she's 16 years old, Sophie. What were you like at 16? Do you move to the big city? Were you ready for to sort of, you know, strike out? I mean, I was living on the outskirts of the big city, a place called High Barnett, which is where Oliver Twist met the artful dodger, not fat. Yeah, I was, I was making ventures into the big city. I was drinking like alka-popson, like, Finbury Park. But I don't think I was setting forth to be the pride or like the hope of my

family. I don't think I was entering any beauty contest. I had quite bad acne. Ditto, yeah. Yeah. It was a tough time. It's a tough time, 16. Yeah. Okay. So she, what is this next stage for age 16? Does she go to Beijing and try and become a consort? Is that the route? Yeah. So what happens is every two or three years, the court will have an order edict saying Manchu families who have girls between 13 and 16 or 17, 12, that age, must send them to the court to be selected. It's like a beauty contest. So at local levels, oh, no, she's too ugly. Oh, yes, she goes forward.

So it's a level by level elimination. Wow. So by the time you get to the imperial court. Miss Manchu. Yeah. Yeah, Miss Manchu, it's a beauty contest. Yeah, okay. But the lucky ones would be reserved for the emperor.

And layer by layer, prince. and then servants, lady-in-waiting. Okay. Wow. So three levels. It's very young, though. I mean, she's 16, but you said 13, some of those girls. That's waiting.

Oh, yes. There's 13. One girl became empress in age 13. Yeah, the emperor was 14. I mean, it's like, I know that the actual reality is probably quite bleak in some cases, but I feel like it's such an amazing setting for a YA novel. I bet there's so many. Yeah.

Yeah. It definitely is, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. So you go through that. And there are families who don't want their girls to go through that. Okay. Yeah.

So because you're stuck in the palace forever. In the forbidden city, in the palace. And you part visit your family. Yeah. And if the emperor never favors you, have a child, you'll die like a virgin in the palace. All your life, you're stuck there. Even into old age, there's no sort of age cap.

No, no, no. Really? Yeah, you're stuck. Classic film Sophie's Choice. I'm going to turn to you, Sophie. It's not, I mean, it's not a great list of options. options for Lannaa here. I mean, if you're hot, you're like,

sure. You're banking on that. I never had that. Sadly, I've never traded on my hotness. So we have a 16-year-old going to court and she is selected. Yes. And so was her sister. Oh, really?

Younger sister. But she was given to a prince. So she was given to the brother of the emperor. So she was pretty too. She's guining for the top dog, right? She wants to be the emperor's concubine. Yeah. So what's the competition?

How does it work? So she, when she was chosen, she actually, because there are nine ranks. Okay. Nine ranks of emperors concubine? Yes. Okay. So there's only one empress. But the rest are senior, senior, you know, all the sorts of titles.

So she actually starts at rank six out of nine. So she's... Nine. Yeah. It's like sets and maths. The thing is, this... actually correlates to the statue of your family. Okay.

So the empress at that time was also chosen that she came from an extremely powerful political family. So the empress actually is a political marriage. Okay. Because the Qing court needs them, right? So if she started at rank six, I'm not sure whether they need, you know, they need her family,

her father died anyway. How many people in a rank? How many rivals does she have in rank six? Ah, there are empress who had 50. Whoa. Yeah, this shame phone didn't have that many because he was very young. He had 11 registered records.

You know, the records you can look at, he had 11 registered concubines in addition to the empress. We're calling her Lady Lan, but she then gets known as Noble Lady Lan. Yeah. This is her first promotion. Yes, yeah.

She goes up and up. We say in Chinese the ladder of success for women is a son. Oh, okay. So she had a son. Ah, we'll get to that. And is her promotion completely at the discretion of the emperor? Yes. Well, I was going to ask you, Sophie.

I mean, you know, if you were starting on level six of nine, yeah, yeah, yeah. How would you try and stand out amongst your competition? There's, you know, there's 10 other girls there. Ten other girls. Yes. And I've been ranked at six. This feels very much like a lot of TikTok format.

It's like the emperor's going to pop a balloon if he doesn't like me. I think I would be like, okay, everyone here's really pretty. Maybe I've got like an additional, maybe I can soothe him. Sooth. Maybe I can sing. Like that's, I'm saying hypothetical I would do that. If I was to sing, it would not be soothing. But maybe I would like sort of try and show him some of what I've learned outside so that he

knows that I'm intelligent and useful as well as pretty. Nice. Or, you know, just have a son. What's Sophie correct? Do we know how Lanner or Lady Lanner she's known, how does she grab the Emperor's attention? She was a smart girl. Okay. She observed.

She studied. You're going to say she did something terrible. No, she was a politician. She knew how to cultivate people. So I think what stood her out among the. Manchu girls. What made her different is because she grew up in southern China where her father served, she had this air of well-brought-up, well-educated Chinese, because there's this prejudice in China against the Manchus because where there are horsemen, hunters, gatherers, they're not

literate, they're not educated. But Southern Chinese, like where I came from is, you know, we're a cultural. There are lots of things. She's talented, but then you need to let the emperor know that you are different from other man to girls. She racked her brain, basically, trying to figure out how the emperor goes to work. Okay. You know. So she's learning his routine. He's learning his routine and maybe sing or suddenly pop up along the route and then grab, because you have to do that.

Okay, the moment comes to the emperor has chosen her for a nighttime activity, let's say. he wants to spend the night with her. Sophie, do you know what the choosing process involves for her? She doesn't know she's been selected until suddenly someone knocks on the door. Do you know what happens to her and that process? I think the funniest day would be for her to be like sort of bundled into a sap. But I don't think. That is literally what happens.

Is that what happens? That is very funny. Well done. They strip her naked. They bunged into a sack and they drag her into the emperor's quarters. After lunch, the emperor will be presented with a tray with all the girls. Okay. All your concubines.

But like, not literally a tray. No, they're not on the tray. Not a binder of wood. Their name. Yeah, it's a binder of wood. The name on the tray. And if there's one person, one girl you want to spend the night with, you turn it around. Okay.

And then the eunuchs would go and she would have to go through a whole process of bathing, makeup and all that. And when evening comes, she's rowed into a duvet and carried into the emperor's bedchamber. Now, there's also the case where if the emperor really likes you, he can go to your palace as well. Because remember the forbidden city in the back, they're all palaces for all the concubines. Yeah, so there's two ways. But the normal way is your carry.

You're bundled in the second. Yeah. Amazing. It's a great system. I mean, I'm hoping there are no ITV development producers listening to this. I was literally, this is a dating show, right? You know, that he chooses the name, he turns it over, and then a girl is kidnapped and brought to his room.

And presumably the other girls are gutted that they haven't been chosen. Are they sort of peering out of their door noticing? Oh, absolutely. There's gossip, conspiracy, all the everything. Oh, my God, who was that last night? I mean, there's loads of things going on. Okay, so presumably, a young man, Lady Lan charms the emperor because she ends up with, you know, obviously with a senior career.

So she charms the emperor. Can you remind me of his name? Sorry, what was the emperor's name? Xienfong. Xionfong. Shienfong. Okay. Sorry, thank you.

Shianfung. Okay. He sort of chooses her and she becomes his favorite. Is that fair? By sort of age 19 or so, she's the top of the concubines. In a way, the only difference is that she gave birth to her son. Ah, okay. On the 27th of April, 1856, gave birth to a son called Zaitun.

With the son, she can walk with her head high. Yeah. You know, sometimes you have. children, you have a child, it doesn't mean you get to be noble lady. Oh, really? No, no, no. So she was kind of exceptional. Yes, she was like rocketing, you know, skyrocketing, just being promoted very high. So she knew. And then her talent helped at this point because it's mid-1850s. We have conflicts, war coming, the Taiping rebellion, the domestic rebels. Yeah. And the British coming Second Opian War. The Russians were annexing land in the north. So it's a lot of trouble. The young emperor really was not fit for the job.

Yeah. He's only a few years old in her, isn't he? He's in his only 20s. Yeah. Yeah. And yes, she's promoted. And every time she's promoted, she gets a new name. Oh. She goes from Lana to Lady Lan. Then she becomes concubine Yi. Yeah. Then when she has a child, concubine, a year later, she gets elevated to the fourth rank, becomes consort-y. Yeah. Okay. And then one year later, she becomes noble consort-yi. Yeah. And she goes to the third late.

So she started at level six and she goes to level three. Yeah. Which is as high as you can go. It's phenomenal. Yeah. Unless she can't be empress because the empress was already there. The empress is like the first wife. You never touch.

Right. You can't touch her. You can't touch her because it's a political marriage. Yeah. So by the age of 21, she has had the names Lanner, Ladyland, Conquibiny, consort, ye. Noble consort, ye. She's had more eras than Taylor,

Oh my God. She's just constantly name-changing. I think you should never stop reinventing yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you are like eight different people before you turn 25. Yeah.

She's just professionalised that. Yeah. So she's a mum at 21, mum to the prince. And then you mentioned these sort of these wars, this turmoil. Yeah. This is a huge ongoing problem. So the opium wars, there are two. Yeah.

One of them had broken out when she was a child. Yeah, yeah. That's the first opium war. Yeah. And in 1856, the Second Opium War broke out. And this was at the time, there was another huge rebellion, the Christianity inspired rebellion in China. So the Shenfong emperor in his 20s was battered by both domestic rebellion and foreign invasion.

And with the Russians encroaching in northeast China in his homeland, Nigeria. So he really couldn't handle all this. So instead of actually, trying to do his job. You know what he did? He took to opium himself. Ah. He buried himself in opium smoking,

in prostitutes, entertaining in opera. He loved opera. Okay. A list of three vices. Rock and roll of the day. The first two understandable. Third one, all right. Okay.

No, peeking up or was rock and roll of the day. I suppose, yeah. Okay, fair enough. For the rich. So during this time, the emperor is struggling and he's turning to drugs, which means presumably someone needs to run the show. and we have a young lady who going, I'll do it.

Yeah. So she began by, she goes into his office and there's stacks of documents. He needs to go over and decide. You know, somebody, you know, we need £13 million, whatever, tails and for the rebels. And there's a disaster here. The people are dying, right? So there are things that he needs to do to decide. But he's like, you know, he's just not up to it.

And guess who's up to it? Yeah. It's not the Empress who says, I'll do it. It's level three. Level three? Yeah. Oh my God.

Consort. Yeah. Consort. Yeah. Consort. And she loved doing this. Okay, so she's learning on the job. She's learning on the job.

And she loves it. Yeah. And of course, they are defeated in the Second Opium War. The treaty is forced upon them in the Kowloon Peninsula and so on. So it's gone really wrong. And then it goes even worse. Sophie, do you know what happens to the emperor? He gets real sick from opium.

Yeah. It gets real sick. And then he gets as sick as you can get. He gets dead. He gets dead from opioid. Yeah, he died in 1861. Oh, no. Which presumably leaves our lady consort Yi in serious trouble, you think, right?

Oh, yeah, because she's not in favour anymore. There's no more emperor in favour. But of course, she does have a son. Oh, who is the only heir? The only heir. So is this where, Young Wen, we get now another name change. We finally get to meet Sir Xi? Yes.

All right. Okay. Final form. Final form. Actually, no, there's more to come. So she now is the regent on behalf of her little boy. Yeah, so what happens? Because the boy is the only heir, only son, so he gets to be emperor.

Now, the original empress becomes Empress Dowager. Right, okay. But because she's the mother of the six-year-old boy, so she is also elevated to Empress Dowager. We've got two. We've got two. And it's not uncommon. in Chinese history.

Really? When the empress, mother, biological mother, and the real emperor, because remember real empress, you don't touch her, she's always there. Okay. So, but then Tsishi is below the Empress Dowager. So Empress Dowager number one is Sheeran? Tsuan, yes. And Empress Dowager number two is our Lady Lan turned Tsichi.

Yeah. Okay. Wow. Wow, it's a lot of extended family. It's a lot of extended family. And also two women who now have to join forces to run the show, but do they have the same values? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, there's a lovely thing. They sleep on different parts of the palace. Can you tell us what their nickname is? Yeah. Originally, the east is bigger than the West. Okay. So the empress and the heir to the throne always lives in the palace in the east. That's why the real Empress Dowager is called East Emperor Stourger.

And then sushi... It's the West Emperor's Taoise. I mean, sushi West Side sounds like a 90s rapper. I'm sure she tracks with two-path. It really does, yeah. It's also giving wicked. It's giving wicked. Yeah.

So the dying emperor had left Cheyenne with a secret instruction. So his empress, he'd left it with a secret instruction concerning the other lady. Do you know what that instruction was? Wait, so he left it for classic... His... His... The Empress. Top wife.

A secret instruction. Yeah, regards to his top concubine. Oh. It's going to get. Wow. Okay. Don't let her get with anyone else. Oh, okay.

Okay, so you think it's the sort of jealousy thing. She can't remarry and then we're boyfriends. Yeah. But I think that probably applies by default to both of them. It's a bit more extreme than that, Yang Wen. So before the emperor died, he actually realized this woman is... Oh, running the show? Yes.

Yeah. So one of his ministers actually advised him to have her killed. Okay. You know, there is this tradition in Chinese history when the boy is going to be apparent and become future emperor, the mother is killed. Wow. To prevent the mother's family to become too strong.

Too powerful, yeah. Yeah, too powerful. And there has been cases in history where the mother's family took over. So the instruction to Shuo, Anne, is if there's any doubt, kill her. You have my handwritten... Kill the Empress of the West. Yes.

Kill the West Emperor. Surprisingly, Yang Wen, the opposite happens. The two women team up, right? They do. They become a kind of double-act. Love that. Yeah. Yeah.

The Empress Dowager. Yeah, Empress Dowagers. Dowagers, yeah, okay. So how does that work? Who makes decisions? Or do they both have to agree on a decision? Yes, they do. Right.

Yeah. So in the beginning, they worked actually like a good team because they have common interest because the emperor had appointed an agency of eight ministers, eight men. These eight men didn't treat these two women very well as an equal. Of course you don't like that, right?

It's like what? I'm Emperor Stauwajar and you're treating me like this. Yeah. And they launched a bit of a coup? Yes. Yes. So they get rid of the ministers? They get rid of the ministers. Yes. Oh, amazing. This is great. Oh, no. So the start of the episode, you said a bit of a kind of boss lady vibes. Yeah.

Yeah. So far, how do you feel about her? I mean, she's obviously risen up? I feel positive about her. I feel like she's enterprising. I feel like she's, you know, evaded at least one murder plot. Yes. She's like done right by her family.

She's had a son. So far, you're on the fit. You're on board? So far, I'm on board. Okay, we'll check back in later because maybe it changes. dive into the bonkers world of David Mitchell and Robert Webb and listen to their BBC comedy show from nonsensical maths quiz number wang

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The Complete Series 1 to 5 wherever you get your audiobook So the two women are running China together. Yeah. This power sharing, it's fine while the emperor is a boy. You know, Saichuan, he's small, he's six, he's little, he doesn't understand the world. Surely when he becomes 13 or 14, he's going to want to get rid of his mum and his stepmom or whatever it is, he's going to want to go solo. So because he was the only boy, he was really spoiled by both empress, Dawa.

So when he was growing up and time for him to take over, he really was not well prepared for the job. You know, he was not a good student. So he didn't, you know, if he didn't want to learn and nobody pushes him. Yeah, yeah. So he wasn't a good emperor. And then he rushes into many decisions. He gets, you know, because can you imagine 18 years old?

Gee, I'm an emperor. I can do anything, right? He fires ministers without consulting his two mothers. And of course, it doesn't work that way. Yeah. And he had a much better relationship with Tzu An. That is biological mother. Than his biological mother.

Oh, really? Because the biological mother is a dominating figure. Okay. Yeah. She would flap him. She slap him? Yeah, yeah. Wow.

And she would slap him with the ruler in China if you failed exam. or didn't do your homework, you stuck your hands out, and the teacher or your mother can use the ruler to beat you. He's the emperor of China. Yes, I know. She's meeting the ruler with a ruler. Yay, there you go. That's why we book you.

One pun for us. So she had a much better relationship with the Empress Dowager, rather than his own biological mother. And he comes of age in 1872. He's going to take the imperial name Tongxi. Tongzi, yes. Yeah, Tomlisjure. But she stalls him.

She won't hand him full power yet. Do you know what she demands of him first? He has to get married. Yes, very good. Yes. You've got good instincts here, Sophie. I don't have mothers-in-law. Future mothers-in-law.

Yes, she demands you must get married first. And so what, they choose the girls for him? Ah, that comes to the real interesting story. Okay. Because you have the beauty contest. Okay, yeah. And he's 18 years old. Miss Manchu, yeah.

go pops around. Oh, yeah, all those nice little good-looking girls. And then he chose the one he likes. It's also the one that the Empress Tsian likes. Right. Okay. It's a ranking family, political marriage, but this is a pretty girl, very well-educated, knew how to be empress and all that. You know, the reason Tsishi want her son to marry is because she wants to have a spy.

Right. Okay. To watch her. him to control him. So he didn't choose the one his old mother likes. That's the origin of all the problems to come. It's another reality TV show, I think. It is totally another show.

Davaj a date decider, I think we could call it. So things get a little bit of tense, don't they? And by 1874, the emperor, he gets ill. And I think we know where this story goes, because we've heard it already before. What happens to him this time? He died? He died. Yeah.

What was his illness? Because there was an official illness and there was a real illness. Yeah, the official was smallpox. Okay. But the real reason, because he's got spots all over the place and his body was kind of rotting, we think it's syphilis. Ah, okay. And so Sir She, she has lost a sort of a husband of sorts. She's now lost her son.

There are now no more men to control, Sophie. So how are she going to cling to power? Oh, I guess there are no boys at all. Well, she finds one. Oh, she finds one. Yeah, she digs up her nephew, right? Yeah, so for her to continue to be Empress Dowager, she needs another son.

Okay. So where did she get the other son? Remember, her sister was also in the beauty contest. And the sister was married off to the brother of the emperor. Yeah. So two sisters marrying into the same family. The elder sister, Tushi, marries, the emperor and her younger sister

marries the brother, younger brother of the emperor. So it's her own nephew from both sides. Yeah. So it's a good job, good deal. Well done. Well done, yeah. Nephew's new emperor. Yeah.

So she's on to sort of emperor number three. Yeah. Outliving a lot of emperors. How old do you think he is? Oh, I think he is. Like her kid was six initially. Initially six. We're all six initially.

I think he's maybe about 16. That's a good guess. He's three. He's three. Okay. So the new emperor is a toddler, pottering around. Yeah. Coloring on the walls.

Yeah. And so she's back in charge again, right? Yeah. So she's back in the hot seat. Yeah. And a lot of man-should nobles were against this. Yeah. Because this is not natural.

And before we go there, her daughter-in-law, remember her son had an empress. Mm. the one she didn't like. Right. She was actually pregnant. Ah. Oh, boy. So that's the natural air.

Yeah. She should have been the Empress Dowager, waiting for the child to be born. If it's a girl, then there'll be other choices. Right? Because the mantras have been in China ruling for all those years. There's family rules as to who gets to inherit. Right.

You know, she's just like, no, no rule. I'm the rule. But that pregnant... Ah, this pregnant Empress, Empress, who was about 18, 19 years old, died three months after the Tungji Emperor died. Suspicious timing, though, see? She was pregnant. We know that for sure. And soon after, the Empress Dowager, Shia Ann, also dies suspicious timing.

Do you know how, so she was rumoured to have been involved in this second one? With the Empress Dowager, her former... Her former sort of, you know... Partner in crime. Women-owned business. I feel like a poisoning. Yeah, it is a poisoning. Yeah, I feel like that happens with people with Flavidames.

Do you know what the poison was put in? Ooh, a drink? No, I mentioned at the beginning, actually. It was put in a sweet cake. A sweet cake. A bake-off special. And suddenly the Dowager Empress Shetan is dead. people at court are suspicious

but they can't prove it no nothing is proved so now we have one woman running the show because there's a four-year-old boy over here and only one emphasis on that's what she wants so finally sushi is the absolute power behind the she is the throne really yes yes

Sophie obviously you're not going to commit a crime anytime soon but if you had to if you were going to have to take out a comedy rival Catherine Boehard get rid of it now I would have never anything I served. And you can keep that in.

How would I do it? I think I'd have to do something in the green room. I think if you put free chips in the green room in any green room in the country, comics are going to eat it. So I think it would have to be like hot fries. The problem is all the comedians would die. It wouldn't be just one. You would lose an entire bell of comedians.

Yeah. But I mean, like, I don't mind take it out a night at the comedy store. And she gets a name change again. Of course. Wow. Can you guess what the name changes this time? I mean, you won't guess, but give us your best. Yeah.

Wow, from Orchid Girl to Sershut to, is it like from the natural world? Is it like a symbol of something? Or is it like? Think more spiritual. Spiritual? Yeah. Like, is she like everyone's mother? Nice.

That's a good guess. She's like. Like a world's mother. Yeah, like the world's mother. A light. These are good guesses. Yangman, I'm going to come to you. What's the official nickname that she quite likes?

She's called Old Buddha Old Buddha Oh, Buddha Yeah Wow So she's old Buddha now She is old Buddha What nickname would you like to go by

Oh, thank you so much for asking As a nickname In Shui which is an Akan dialect I would like to be called Sexy Abrawa which kind of means sexy old woman Nice Because I think it's a nickname you can really grow into

It means like grandmother old woman So it's kind of like yeah Tasty Grandma Nice And that's what I would like to be called. Would I be allowed to call you that? That feels like that's not a name I can use for you. Tasty Grandma?

Well, I don't know. Hey. Saucy Nana? Saucy Nana. Yeah, fine. I'll call you saucy Nana. Thank you so much. Also, kind of sounds gone in.

How do you imagine her as a ruler? We've talked about her as sort of climbing the ladder in terms of court politics. What do you imagine she's like in terms of China? I imagine she's not fun. I love that. I don't think she's, I think because I think she's like had a lot of time tolerating these wasteal or literal baby kings who are like lying around, shitting themselves, crawling around, not doing their work. So I feel like she's maybe a bit more austere.

She's a bit more tight with the purse strings and a bit more punitive. Sure. Is that correct? So I mean, so you think kind of harsh but effective? Is that your vibe? Yeah. Okay. Yang Wen, what is, in terms of her public policy, in terms of what she does,

for the people of China. What can we ascribe to her? In a way, she was a good ruler. Because after the second open war, China basically avoided conflict with the West for 20 or 30 years. Yeah. And she launched reform. She sanctioned a lot of reform projects. China was learning from the West, catching up, modernizing, industrializing. She sanctioned all those projects. Yeah. She bought warships and weapons. Yes, railways and all that stuff. So telegraph lines and modern factories. Yeah, I mean, you've written a book on the history of the railways in China. That's her policy. Yeah. So there is one thing that she, on the one hand, it's kind of, she's like a man, like a politician, real ruler. On the other hand, she indulges herself. You know, she built gardens and she wants Western luxuries and all that.

So on that aspect, you know, she's more like a real concubine or empress Daoja. And she was also good at keeping, you know, by that time, the Manchu's were corrupted and don't want to work because they get handouts from the government. So by that time, it's Chinese officials who are running the empire. So you've got Manchu officials, you've got Chinese, you've got Mongols, and you've got foreigners coming in, advisors. Yeah, the French are there. Yeah, the British were there running the customs and all that. So what she was good at is she played them against each other. Right.

So keeping herself at the top. She played the reformers against conservatives. She played reformers against reformers, Chinese against foreigners, British against the French. You know, she's very good at playing. Yeah, puppeteering. Yeah. So everybody needs her.

Right. You mentioned briefly the Taiping Rebellion. Yeah. You know, that is a Christian. uprising, which is interesting, I suppose, because missionaries have been in China for a while. So the Christianity's been growing in China. Yes. And this is a Chinese scholar who thought he was God's Chinese son. Wow. He was brother to Jesus. That's nice. He led to rebellion that lasted almost 20 years, led to millions of death, and almost toppled the Qing dynasty.

Yeah, it's a huge, it's a massive rebellion, isn't it? It's not a small little thing. It's like, it's a She put it down. She put it down in 1864. You know, the rebellion began in 1850 when her husband came to the throne. For 10 years, he couldn't do anything about it. And she came to reign from behind the curtain in 1862. In two years to time, the rebellion was dead. And she did fight with France.

Yes, there's a French war, yeah, in 1883, 185. And then 1890s, China really was not doing well. And that's when Japan is the main adversary. So the Sino-Japanese wars. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it's a long list of enemies that she has to face. Right.

Christine's within our own country. The British, the French, the Japanese. And the Chinese against Manchu's matches. It's very messy. Because Japan has invaded Korea by this point. So Japan's becoming more powerful as well. Yeah. And China was defeated.

Navy was defeated as well. Yes, in 1895. Yeah. So it's not going well. And then, of course, her nephew slash son grows up and he becomes Emperor Guantua. Yes. And the same story with Chimperors, I was going to say.

She repeats again. Right. So she's like, you can't be Emperor until you're married and I'm going to choose your wife. Is that right? Yes. Wow. A tale is oldest time, Sophie. It's terrible.

Does she pick the one that she likes? She picked the one she likes. Okay. You're marrying this girl and there's nothing more to it. And it's a cousin. to cousins. So she married her sister's son to her brother's daughter. Okay, that's quite confusing. I'm sorry, the family tree in my head just became very nal, lots of branches. Okay, right. She wants to keep the power within her family. Yeah. Yeah.

There's all these external pressures on her, these wars, China, fighting Japan, France and so on. And she's trying to bring in these reforms in the army and in society. Yeah. But there is a coup against her. Sophie. And do you know what happens in this coup? Do you know who leads the coup, perhaps? Coo, I'd say, probably led by another concubine. Oh, nice. Yeah. A rival sushi who's kind of climbed that.

Concupine and concubine, yeah, someone in the nine levels. Yeah, it's a good guess. Yangerman, it's not a concubine. No. Do you want to tell us who it is? It's the emperor. It's her nephew. Oh, her nephew.

It's amazing that we've called it a coup, because he is the emperor. He's like, hold on a minute. Yeah, yeah. It's not a coup. It's my husband. own throne. But yeah, he tries, he tries to get rid of her. Yes. And she does some political judo. Yes. And she gets rid of him. Yeah. Well, she put him under house arrest for the next. This is the audacity. I love it. Yeah. This makes a fantastic film. She put him

under house arrest on an island. Okay. Island arrest. Yeah. From September 1898 to November 1908 when he died. So 10 years? 10 years. So is he sort of secretly, like does the rest of the country know that their emperor is stuck in a shed somewhere? No.

Really? Because all the edicts was still issued in the name of the emperor. The Guangzhou emperor? Yeah. So there we go. So if you come for the, well, I was going to say come for the king.

If you come for the Empress Dowager, you better not miss. Better not miss. Wow. Yeah. So her own nephew in house arrest. You on an island. Possibly poisoned her sort of business partner.

Yeah. Possibly poisoned a pregnant woman. Yeah. She's clinging to power. But everything's running quite well. Sort of. I was going to say, in 1900 we get another big military crisis. This one's called the Boxer Rebellion.

Do you know why it's called the Boxer Rebellion? Have you heard of that before? I hoped it was dog-related. I like that. I'm feeling from context clues that it's not. The Boxer Rebellion. Is it about actual boxes? It's about kung fu really, isn't it?

It's about martial arts. Is that fair? It's a British name for the people they believe they're fighting have martial art skills. Is that fair? Yes. So the British are like, the people we're fighting, they don't use guns, they use hands.

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Martial art practitioners. Practitioners, yeah. So it's a sort of rebellion of traditional martial arts practitioners who is their great enemy. Is it the foreigners? Yeah. So what happened is after the, The Sano-Japanese War, and Japan defeated China,

and all the foreigners came back to China wanting more. The Germans began to colonize Sandong region, and the Sandong region is famous for people who practiced martial arts. And there's a special brand. It's called Harmonious Fists. They fight you with the fist. I feel like that's an oxymoron. Homonious Fests.

and the Westerners called them boxers. So in a way, it's funny because when the Western powers imposed unwanted treaties on the Chinese government, and Chinese government, the Qing government actually accepted it. But the people in San Dong says, no, we don't have to accept anything. So they began to uproot railways, telegraph lines, burn churches, kill missionaries and kill the Chinese converts. And Xi at this minute was like, Wow, that's great. Let them kill all the foreigners.

Oh, really? Yes. So she encouraged them. Right. And some of the princes actually funded them. Right. That's why they went to Beijing. But she is forced to flee the forbidden city.

Yeah. So it goes wrong for her. Yeah. So what happens is the boxers grew humongously because of royal support. Yeah. So they went to Beijing. They besieged the foreign embassy area. You know, all the Britain, French, everybody.

And of course, they call for hell. and their navies comes, you know, came to China to suppress the boxes. And then, of course, then she realized, oh, my God, foreigners are coming. They're so powerful. I better run. So she actually could be the real culprit in this whole thing. Because if she didn't encourage them, they wouldn't have come to Beijing. So the suppression wouldn't have happened. Do you see what I mean?

Yeah, so it backfires on her. Yeah. But then she escapes in August the night before the British marched into the city and she was disguised as a peasant woman. It doesn't want anybody to do. No one's believing that. Come on. So, I mean, you said at the beginning, and we'll say it again, she died in 1908.

So she managed to cling to power for seven more years after this huge uprising, this huge rebellion. But obviously she was compromised by the foreign powers coming in. So that final stage of her career is perhaps not very successful. But Sophie, do you know what her final act was? Literally, within days before her death, what's the last thing she did? In her final days, she knew she was going to die. She's at the end of her life.

She picked her air? I mean, that's certainly part of it, isn't it? She decided she, like, I'll try opium. She smoked opium all her life. Yeah, she did, yeah. But she knew how to moderate it. She dabbled in it, did she? Yeah.

She can handle it? No, she, well, do you remember the emperor? who's still in house arrest. Oh, yeah, on the island. She got rid of him. Oh, no. One day before she died. 16 hours before.

16 hours before she died. Oh, my God. He wasn't going to come back to power. Wow. She's a real bitter lady. Not bitter. I mean, she's like, you don't have to get bitter if you take care of business before you go. Yeah, she just lined up all the dominoes.

Yeah. She was dying and she said to people around her, that he must die before I die. Yeah. Yeah. And her nephew, her old nephew. Her adopted son. Her adopted son.

Her adopted son. But her nephew also. Yeah. Is her sister still alive? I don't know. No, my sister died. Okay. Poisoned?

Possible. Okay. Okay, so she bumped off the emperor. Yeah. So who was the next, the next emperor? The famous last emperor. Yeah, the last emperor. And he's another three-year-old boy.

Yes. Wow. So when you see boy emperors in Chinese history, something fishy is going on. Right, okay. That three-year-old is the son of the nephew that she murders. And of course, he abdicates in 1911, and that is the end of the imperial story. Yeah. So quite a life, Sophie.

Yeah. How do you feel about Sushi now? Sershi. I feel resoundingly positive. I feel real good about her. Because I feel like she entered her villain era, and I'm not sure she left it. Yeah, she didn't really depart from the villain era. but I mean, like, she played the game.

I think she was an incredible player of the game. Also, a little bit of poison. A little bit of poison is not the worst thing in the world. And I think I really respect how she refused to let adult men be in charge. Hey, I don't love that she murdered a pregnant woman. Sure. And you can't quote me on that. I can't stay mad at her.

I know she did some bad things. Okay. But I think she is sort of an inspiration. The nuance window! That brings us to our nuance window. This is where Sophie and I sit quietly and brainstorm noble names for ourselves for two minutes. We need, I think, eight new names each probably, while Professor Yang Wen holds court and tells us something that we need to know about Empress Dowager, Sir Xi.

And my stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes. Take it away, Professor Jong. She has been wronged in some ways by historians for generations because she's a woman. and because of allegedly the things she did, if you look in the long run, if she wasn't there, China might have disappeared in 1862. So you can say that she helped pop up the Qing Dynasty

for another four or five decades after the Second Opium War. That's number one. Number two, the reform she stepped in to stop. 100 days reform. If you look from today's perspective, it might be too early. China might not have been ready for it as a country, because if China was not ready, it will cause chaos because the political reforms that the Guangxi Emperor wanted. She also has won saving grace as historians have managed to mine further into the archives. We realized that the Guangzhou emperor, who wanted all those radical reform, her nephew emperor,

actually was in secret communication with the Japanese. He met with the four-time Japanese prime minister. There was recommendation from ranking Chinese intellectuals that Japan should steer China in 1898. That is something she could not accept. and that is something that today's Chinese would never accept. Yes. So that may redeem her. Amazing. Thank you so much.

Incredible. I mean, really interesting. Oh, my God. I like, put it on an island. I mean, it's a really interesting point. The what if, you know, I don't usually like what ifs with history because, you know, history is chaos and we have to imagine it. But if she wasn't there, the story of China might be so radically different.

Yeah. China needed a strong character. Yeah. And she certainly was strong. Who kept things together. I can see why you're on her side. I'm not sure I agree with her the way she went about things. But so, you know, any final thoughts?

Sophie, before we do the quiz? I fully support I would. If Sir has, you know, 100 fans, I am one of them. She is 10 fans. I'm one of them. Wow. I've been poisoned by a bad cake. I think it was honestly, not chaotic, but such a full life. And so many people to sort of like,

like manage and maneuver. And I feel that she at the end managed to like leave not kind of disgraced with sort of her legacy intact. I mean, not morally, but in terms of she didn't like, she didn't die in indignity or or anything like that. And so I think that's pretty impressive. I mean, dying in your deathbed still in power is hard as, you know, an emperor, isn't it? So what do you know now?

Well, it's time now for the, so what do you know now? This is our quickfire quiz for Sophie to see how much she has learned. And Sophie, you're ordinarily, you're very good at these quizzes. But I think today's been quite sort of tricky with lots of emperors and nephews and sons. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the family tree is overgrown. Okay, I've got ten questions for you. Let's see how you do.

Okay, good luck. Question one. What was Sir She's childhood nickname or name perhaps? Her childhood name was land. Yeah, Lan, which meant? Orchid girl. Orchid girl. Very good.

A superhero. Question two, by which process did the emperor choose which concubine? He wanted to spend the night with. Oh, he had a metaphorical bind of women, all their names on a tray, and he would turn it round if he wanted to see them. That's right. And they would be kidnapped and delivered to him. How romantic.

Question three. Which lowly rank of consort did Sir Xi begin in? She had at level six. She did. It's embarrassing. She climbed. Question four, with whom did Sir Xi stage a coup after Emperor Jean-Fung's death? With her fellow Empress Dowager and...

Very good. Question five, what other names were the two Empress Dowager's known by, geographically speaking? So Sir Sir Anne, they were known as... Sir Sir Sir and Sir Anne were known by East and West, specifically. Anne was East, she was west. Very good. She was wicked. Question six, what did Sir She insist her son, the Emperor Tongue, do before she let him assume power?

He's got to get wifey. He's got to get worried and she wanted to choose one of the four ladies. Question seven, you're doing very well, Sophie. Thank you. Question seven, how did Sushi stay in power after her son's death? She stayed in power after her son's death by keeping it in the family and getting her sister's son to become emperor. That's it.

Three-year-old nephew, install him as emperor, classic. Question eight, how did Sushi's former power partner, Empress Dowager? She and allegedly die. It was pastry week and... Yes. A few too many bitter almonds in that cake, I think, yeah. Question nine, name one seismic wall. or event that Sir She lived through.

Oh, okay. So there were so many. There was the, I'm going to pronounce them all wrong. There was the burning of the summer palace. Yeah, absolutely. There was the Taiping Rebellion. That was the Boxer Rebellion. This is amazing.

With a harmonious fists. Yeah, I'm giving you a bonus point because that was amazing. That was fantastic. And this for a perfect 11 out of 10. Oh, God. What was surprising about the timing of Sir She's death considering the emperor's death?

It was surprising that only 16 hours before he was. condemned to death. On his island. Yeah, absolutely. Sophie Duker, 11 out of 10. Oh, thank God. Oh, everything's been riding on this for me. Thank you, Jan Wen.

Thank you, Janu. Thank you so much, Yangwen. An amazing lesson. I think we all learned so much there. Well done, Sophie. Fantastic memory recall. And listener, if you want more brilliant biographies with Sophie Duga,

check out our episodes on Benedetta Carlini, the saucy nun. Ramesses the Great, another sort of big, powerful name. And, of course, the Chevalier de Saint-George, the great composer. And for more Chinese history,

You might not listen to our episodes on the history of kung fu, the Tong Dynasty, and the Terracotta Warriors, of course. All very interesting. If you enjoy the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to Your Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. And if you're outside the UK, you can listen at BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we have the Incredible Professor Yang Wen Jung from the University of Manchester. Thank you, Yang Wen.

Thank you for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure. And in Comedy Corner, we have the super. star Sophie Juka. Thank you, Sophie. Thank you so much. 11 out of 10. Thank you. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we raise another overlooked historical subject up through the ranks. But for now, I'm off to go and have a lie down. My producers fed me a weird tasting cake before the recording and I feel a bit woozy. Bye! Bye!

Your death to me is a BBC Studios production for BBC Radio 4. This episode was researched by Emma Mitchell. It was written by Emma Mitchell, Dr. Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Dr Emma Noghous and me. the audio producer was Steve Hanky and our production coordinator was Jill Huggott. It was produced by Dr. Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Dr. Emma Noghese, and our executive editor is Philip Sallers. Hello, Alex von Tundsenman here with a brand new series of history's heroes, people with purpose, brave ideas and the courage to stand alone, including the little-known story of a famous author caught up in a horrific accident,

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