You're Dead to Me - Empress Matilda: civil war in medieval England

Episode Date: August 8, 2025

Greg Jenner is joined in twelfth-century England by Dr Gabrielle Storey and comedian Cariad Lloyd to learn all about Empress Matilda and the medieval civil war known as the Anarchy. A granddaughter of William the Conqueror, Matilda was born into England’s new Norman royal family. As a young girl she was used as a dynastic pawn by her father and sent to Germany to marry the Holy Roman Emperor. Here she was crowned empress and trained to rule. When her younger brother died, followed by her husband, Matilda returned to England to take her place as her father’s heir. But after her father’s death she was beaten to the throne by her cousin Stephen, and so began the medieval civil war known as the Anarchy. Although Matilda ultimately lost, her son, Henry, was made Stephen’s heir, and he went on to rule with support and advice from his royal mother. So who was the real winner? This episode traces Matilda’s dramatic life from daughter of a king to empress of Germany to queen-in-waiting of England. Along the way, we ask whether medieval sexism prevented her from taking the throne, and look at the ways a woman could rule in twelfth-century Europe.If you’re a fan of fearsome queens, violent family feuds and medieval royal drama, you’ll love our episode on Empress Matilda.If you want more medieval queens with Dr Gabrielle Storey, check out our episode on Eleanor of Aquitaine. For more from Cariad Lloyd, listen to our episodes on Agrippina the Younger, Mary Wollstonecraft, and the Arts and Crafts Movement. And for more English royal feuds, there’s our episode on the Causes of the British Civil Wars.You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past.Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Clara Chamberlain Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

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First, on BBC Sounds. Hello, and welcome to You're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian author. and broadcaster. And today we are moseying back to medieval England and throwing fists in the fiercest of family feuds as we learn all about Empress Matilda and the Anarchy. And joining our Royal Court are two very special guests in History Corner. She's a historian of monarchy and sexuality specialising in medieval history. She's the author of Beringaria of Navarre,

Queen of England and Lord of Lomont. And you'll remember her from my episode on Eleanor of Akitaine. It's up to Gabrielle's story. Welcome back, Gabby. Great. Thanks for having me back. And in Comedy Corner, she's a multi-talented comedian, actor, writer. You'll know her from the TV panel show. She's an author. Her new children's book, Where Does She Go? It's a lovely analysis of grief for kids. It's beautiful. Plus, she has a career as a Jane Austen Improv Whiz in the hilarious, ostentatious improv show. She's a busy woman, and you'll definitely remember her from our episodes of your dead to me, including Georgian Courtship and the Arts and Crafts Movement. It's the wonderful

Carriad Lloyd. Welcome back, Carriad. Ahoy there, Sirah, as they said, in medieval times, yes? Good morrow upon thee. Yes? Gabby's nodding like, yeah, yeah, that's absolutely. That's your classic English greeting. Well, we do need it in Anglo-French for this episode. Bonjour, Cyril, sa va. Wee, it's le moro bon.

Wow, linguistics class as well. She said, like, do a lot of things. Speaking French is one of them. Now, Carrie, together we have done Agrippina the Younger of Rome. Yep. A sort of empress. We've done plenty of regency in Victoria. Rihanna. We've not done medieval together.

We have not gone back to medieval times. And so when I say to you, Empress Matilda and the Anarchy, you think... What, do you know what? As ever with me, I feel like I have one piece of information about Matilda, but it could be wrong, but I feel like I read it once in Peter Aykroyd London. And I only remember two things from Peter Aykroy's London. And I feel like she was a really popular queen. That's what I thought about Matilda. And that when she came out Westminster Abbey once, they were cheering her.

And that's the area of St. Giles was a slum. I'm so sorry, Pete Aykroyd. It's a very large tone. It's a very big book, very heavy. I should remember more. Popular queen. Interesting. We will address that later, I think.

Okay, that's fine. That is not what I would. Oh, no. Well, take it out with Pete Dachroyd, not me. Okay. Well, look, you know, it sounds like you're not, you know, totally clear on the Empress Matilda sort of backstory. Okay, so that's kind of helpful for us because it means we can give you a fresh introduction.

I don't know none, as they said in the 12th century. In French, of course. I'm no nothing. I don't know nothing. Okay. Fabulous. So, what do you know? Great, that brings us to the first segment of the podcast, which is the Soodian, though.

This is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And for most of you, Matilda, is most probably going to be the heroine from the Royal Doll story, more so than medieval royal diva. But you may have read Ken Follett's famous mega-massive medieval novel, The Pillars of the Earth, which in 2010 was turned into a TV series as well. And of course, if video games are more your speed, and particularly if you're an elder millennial like me, you may have played Age of Empires 2 expansion pack. Ooh, in which you can battle against Empress Matilda. But who was the real life, Matilda? How did a family squabble turn into a full-blown civil war?

And when can a hangover save your life? Oh. Let's find out. Right, Dr Gabby, when was Matilda born? You know, where are we in history? And are we talking royal baby? Yeah, so we're talking about England to start off with, though France will jump into the scene on quite a few occasions. Say what we do.

Yep, yeah, so we're going to have some cross-channel argy-bargy going on. But Matilda's born around February 1102. She is the daughter of Henry I, King of England, who was the youngest son of William the Conquer, also known by another name that's not Radio 4 friendly so we're keeping it at that for the moment and her mother was Matilda of Scotland and Matilda of Scotland is descendant of Alfred the Great

so this gives some legitimacy She's like, she's royalty She is. I'm impressive Yeah, yeah So granddad William the Conquer Yeah Dad is king, King Henry

Henry the first Not even like Henry the fifth guys This is Henry the first one to be like They've just got into that that DVD series She's in the OG series She's the OG series But they're still frugging it out

And then her other granddad Is Alfred the Great No no going to go way back Descended from her mum Her father was the youngest son of William the Conquer Yeah what happened to the others That's a good question

Do you want to have a little guess for us What happened to the older brother They died hide hideously poisoned Interesting You think suspicious death Well probably at this time Isn't it the youngest son ends up there I'm guessing suspicious

So Henry's older brother, William I'm also known as William Rufus, William Redhaired, does die in a suspicious hunting accident in the new forest in 1,100. So he is shot supposedly by accident by one of his servants, but... Oh, God, so sorry, I think we're a dear. Because you have the red hair. It's very confusing. Yeah, absolutely. But rather conveniently for Henry, who happens to be. me nearby, he then just races off to Winchester, supposedly to secure all

the money, because the treasuries at Winchester. But the fact he runs off so quickly, he does raise some suspicions as to whether he knew about it. He's going to wash my hands, I mean, go to Winchester. Nothing with, there's all these arrows falling out of your backside.

Don't worry, well, I don't know. Yeah, so he does speed himself along and get crowned before William's even cold. Oh, Henry. On me, on me one. Only one. So his older brother has taken an arrow to the back in suspicious circumstances. Yes.

And their other brother, Richard, did also die in a hunting accident. So there is a little bit... Stop hunting. It's very dangerous. Yeah. You guys, like, you shouldn't be doing that. That's not for you. Yes.

So Gabby, Matilda is born a royal. When we had our little sort of pre-chat, you said there's no such thing as a princess in this era, which I found quite interesting. I didn't know that. Yeah. But Prince existed? Kind of the next century or so along So I won't go too much into Welsh history Because that's kind of where we get

Principality and Prince is coming along Please always go into Welsh history Never hold back Because we have been forgotten about For hundreds of years So our instinct to call her a princess Is sort of sort of right But it's not what they'd call her at the time

They would just say she was the king's daughter Yeah Yeah And refer to her as a lady and so forth Just the lady of the court basically Yeah So what's her childhood like? education and, you know...

So if she had a diary, it wouldn't be the princess diaries. No, unfortunately not. Just be Lady of the Court's diaries, which has not the same ring about it. Yeah, I don't think Anne Halfway's going to line up to play her at the moment. Unfortunately, we'll have to think of someone else. But we don't know loads, unfortunately, about her upbringing. So royal girls are often raised in nunneries, and sometimes they're at court with their mothers. If they're at court with their mothers, then they're travelling round.

You know, we know that she goes to Exeter. She's in Norwich, Windsor Canterbury, so she does move round of the court quite a bit. Now, her mum, Matilda of Scotland, she is very cultured, she's very pious. So she wants to pass that on to her daughter. But Matilda of Scotland is also very keen on exercising power. So we can see her with a good amount of political authority. Again, something Junie Matilda is going to pick up on. And she also gets involved in mediating between disputes between the king and his archbishops.

So Archbishop Canterbury again popping up As soon as I thought about the Archbishop Canterbury I was thinking of Matilda's son Henry II And Thomas Beckett Who also get into the suit Spoiler-al of it, yeah So, yeah And we say travel about, you know, you mentioned Exeter

And it's sort of sunny climbs, you know, sweltering Exeter Gorgeous tropics of southwest England But she went considerably further at a young age Do you want to guess where, Carriad? France Oh, all the way to Germany. All the way to Germany.

So she went to the school exchange for the Germany because the French one was full. It wasn't a school exchange program, Carriad. Oh, it was to meet a man to marry. Yeah. It was marriage exchange. Yeah. You know what, Greg, they look down on that in schools these days. They more encourage you to see the site, eat some food, not pick up a future husband.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, often on this show, I have to sort of honk my problematic marriage claxon. It's rare I have to do it. I wonder what that was. I'm glad you were. Yes, no, it's very big. How old are we talking here, Gabby? Oh, yeah, how old?

Eight. Oh, now look, I've heard some low numbers before on this program, but that is low. Medieval. What is wrong with you? I mean, officially engaged at the age of eight. I will raise that they did. I mean, the marriage is delayed for a few years

because even then they realized that that's quite young to be being married. But they would like say it like, this is going to happen. We're just making sure everyone we've signed the contracts. Yeah. You can see what you're buying. but they're not going to actually get married for a while. I mean, I'm making it sound like it's reasonable.

But she does go out there at eight, right? Yes, yeah. To Germany. So her father is arranges. Her father is Henry. Yeah. And she's betrothed to who? Henry.

Oh, another one. The fifth. I can't call him Heinrich or something. He's also Henry, the fifth. Henrik, yeah. Oh, Heinrich the fifth. Yep, Heinrich. And he is what?

And he is King of the Romans. So Germany at this time, also you go by the title. of King of the Romans. So it can be King of Germany, king of the Romans, because most of the rulers become Holy Roman Emperor as well, which is what happens to Henry.

And Matilda is also crowned even before she's married. She's crowned Queen of the Romans at Mainz on the 25th of July 1110. They give her a party. Yeah, so she gets the crown, she gets the party before she even gets married. So that's not a bad deal for an eight-year-old.

Well, it is. I mean, it's a terrible deal, but they do give her a party. And look, everyone wants to call in the caterpillar cake. Other cakes are available. But it's still not ideal if she's going to have to marry. Yes. Yes. He's 16 years older than her.

He's 16? I thought you were saying he's 16. No, he's 16 years older than her. Yeah. So he's 24. 24. She's eight. So eight years old, already the queen of a country.

So she's started young on the old power front. And obviously she can have to learn German, right? Yes. Yeah, yeah. And Latin is usually the language used by the courts as well. So that will put her in good stead. I mean, yes, she does become Queen very young. But she gets so much experience while she's in Germany. She's trained to rule from a young age, which puts her in good stead for the future. Okay. Okay. So, yeah, problematic. She's on an internship. Yes, very problematic in terms of modern eyes. But for the time period, she's doing exactly what she was meant to be doing. And, you know, we do see her being very. active as we get onto and actually it's quite good because it shows that she does have power she's not just being pushed to one side right yeah they trust her basically to they're not being like we can just use this one as a puppet they're like oh no this one should be ruling well i mean the interesting the sort of next moment henry the fifth leaves for italy because he wants to be

crowned the holy roman emperor so king of the germans is like decent it's good holy roman emperor is the one up he he goes he goes off to italy he says to the pope I like to be Holy Roman Emperor. Pope says no. What do you think he does? Kills a Pope. He's not quite that bad. I'm thinking Game of Thrones here.

He's like his head up. He kidnaps the Pope. He kidnaps the Pope. Yeah. What happens here, Gabby? Where does the... The Pope is held hostage in Rome. He's not transported anywhere.

You don't want to be carrying that around with you to Germany. That is a nightmare. Yeah, I mean, the insurance costs on the... Assurance just is going to want his own incense. Like, you're going to get his robes dry clean on the way. So he just... kind of capture him in Rome. Yeah, and this is Henry's first Italian expedition.

So there's exposition two, which we'll get on to him. Okay, this is awkward. They're not going to want him back after this. No, but he is crowned Holy Roman Emperor, but obviously this is problematic because the Pope's done it under force. You know, it's not quite a legitimate coronation if you've kind of got the knife in the back being like, I want to be Holy Roman Emperor.

Do we know the name of the Pope? Because they normally have quite good names. It's Pascal the 2nd. Great, absolutely. That's quite a nice Pope. We haven't had a Pascal in a while, have we? Well, you need to cover Pascal the first, quite clearly. So Henry and Matilda then get married.

So this is all taking place in 11-11. Henry and Matilda are married in 11-14, just before she turns 12. Wow, thank you. You can't even wait until she's 12. Yeah, so the problematic marriage claxon can still... If you engage at 8, it's a long time before that claxon is going to stop ringing. Yeah, I need new battery.

the claxon. Yeah, you're going to need a bigger claxon, no, sorry, six years, almost of claxoning. It's quite a lot. So she's 12. Lovely. Great. Yeah. So in 1116, we have expedition number two. Okay. Guys, he's back. Everyone, keep your eyes on the Pope. Take the locks. Change the keys. Keep an eye. Yeah. So Henry's back in order to claim the land of Matilda of Tuscany. Another Matilda. Another Matilda. Okay. Our third Matilda so far. So she has supposedly a arranged for her lands to be passed to Henry. So he comes back and claim them.

But Matilda is finally crowned Holy Roman Empress, Impertrix Romanorum, in 1117, but also again not by the Pope. Oh, I see. I see. I see. So does her husband crown her? No. So Henry's crowned for the second time, Matilda's crowned for the first time.

So they're crowned not by the Pope, by the Archbishop of Breger. And therefore, this isn't quite a legitimate ceremony either. But Matilda takes this on fully and like, well, no, I'm Empress now. That's going to be my title. That's what I'm going to use. But she's like 12 at this point, like 14 or something? She's probably like 15, I think of at this point. Yeah, 15.

Because the next year she's in charge right, because Henry's off. Yeah, Henry abruptly has to go back to Germany to settle matters in 1118. And he leaves Matilda in charge of Italy, which ain't quite a lot for a 16-year-old. But I mean, I think a lot of 16-year-olds might like being in Italy for a year. I can't believe in leaving me in charge of Italy. It's just so unfair. But it does show how much Henry kind of trusts her capabilities. He does think at 16 that she can do this.

In some ways, horrific child marriage. In other ways, supportive husband. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I still think that Claxton's going. I'm still honking him, Claxton, all the way through this episode. So we've met three Matilda so far. Carriad, just as a little fun game. How many Matildas will we meet by the end of the episode?

Seven? Not seven. Okay, five. Five, great. Five. And how many Henry's? Well, I don't know. How far are we going up to?

I know there's eight. I'm stressing me out now. We're not going that far. It hasn't been a Henry nine, has there? Well, Henry the eighth was Henry the ninth, but we won't go into that. What? Yeah, because there's Henry the Young kick. Never mind.

We'll move on. It's fine. Three Henry's. You can expect three Henry's. Three Henry. Okay. So five Fittildas and three. You can expect three Henry.

Yes. So Gabby, we've got Empress Matilda. she's suddenly demoted in 1125. Oh, what? What happens to her? You know, she's been ruling Italy, she's the Empress and then suddenly, nope. No, because Henry VIII dies. Heinrich passes away.

Does Henry Fumf is dead. Caput. He goes kaput. Akhnai, that's his ain't shada. Henry Vieth, oh no. So he just dies, but she's left unprotected? Yeah, because she's 23. She's a widow.

They have no children. You've got no kids. Oh, no. Though, interestingly, she's not blamed for the lack of no kids. Well, she's barely had a bloody moment to do it, guys, give her chance. Yeah, but usually the blame is ascribed to the woman. But this case, because obviously, Henry has kidnapped a Pope, and, you know, he's been quite sinful.

And he was literally in a different country half the time. He was in Germany, she was in Italy. It's very hard to do long, you know, long distance. You can't do long distance intercourse, no. No. No. No. But, yeah.

Yeah. So they're looking forward. to the fact that Matilda, what is she going to do now? You know, 23, so she's not allowed to rule in Germany. So the Germans are like, get out of here, you're nothing to us. Pretty much. She could marry a German prince, enter a nunnery, or go back to England. Three options.

Enter an unnery, eh, no thanks. I'm okay. Yeah, but she decides to go back to England in 1126, and she does not go back alone. She decides to take back some of the jewels with her. So she takes two of Henry's crowns. Two of Henry's imperial crowns. I'm taking these as well. I don't care if you don't like me.

I mean, that feels like a theft, really, because basically she's been asked to leave politely. She says, I'm having this. She's like, all his family, like, we never like to anyway. She's like, well, I've taken the crowns. Okay. I'm going to come back for Tuscany one day as well. She does also take the hand of St. James the Apostle as a round.

Yeah, because you always, you always. need a dead saint's hand just in case. Just protection along the way. Fabulous. All right. There's another reason that she's needed back home. Her dad, King Henry. King Henry, the second.

He's lost his air. First, he's lost his air. His son, so Matilda's brother, William, has died. By an arrow, we're a hunting incident. No. Have you ever heard of the white ship disaster? No. I mean, it's a kind of huge dynastic catastrophe, Gabby.

Can you sort of talk us through? It's 1120, right? Yes, 1120. Yep. So November 1120, the English Royal Court's been. in France because they possess Normandy at this point. So you've had the dukes of Normandy become the kings of England

so they've got control over both of those areas. Now Henry and his son William are meant to be sailing back on separate ships. William on the white ship which was captained by Thomas Fitz-Steven and his father had captained the ship that actually brought William the Conquer over in the first place. Oh, so it's a nepo hire.

Yes. Yeah, dad did it so it's my job to do it. I'm sure I can do it. I like my dad knew how to do this. Now, as it's typical, Dad sets off first, but William and the Noble decide to have a bit of a party before they get on the ship. And Fitz Stephen also claimed that despite the delay caused by their drinking, that he would still be able to race past and overtake Henry's ship. So the sailors leave at night, not always advisable in the first place, is it? And go into a stretch of water that's filled with submerged rocks. So, yes, the rock rips the hole, ship sinks

And all but one of the 300 passengers Die, which is a butcher from Ruan So we only have one butcher's word Let me tell you, it was not me They were also drunk So you didn't drink, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I was not the one who bought the booths So we've lost the heir to the throne William, her brother who's drowned

He leaves behind a widow And her name is Matilda. Of course. Yeah, so that's Matilda number four. So Matilda returning to England kind of handy because suddenly there's an air.

Yeah. But a woman. Yeah, how do they feel about that? So not unknown for women to rule in Europe at this point. But they've not had it in England before. It's certainly not in the kingdom of England.

Henry decides to get married again just in case. Does in case. Yeah, sure, sure. Just in case he can get another split of my son. She's just a girl, so I need to get on some other kids as soon as possible because even a baby would be better than this

a baby boy at least six months old we could get him engaged Henry the first Henry the eighth still looking for that you know backup plan and a boy so Henry gets married to Adelaide of Levant 1121 but he does make plans so he does ask the bishops and magnate of England to swear obes three times

to acknowledge Matilda as Queen if he dies but Anglo-Norman's kind of a new dynasty, not very secure. So it's a bit of a precarious matter whether they are going to accept Matilda. So three oaths are sworn, and 1128, 1131, 1127. So between four years, three oaths, if you were Matilda, Carriad,

how would you feel about being demoted from Imperatrix Romanorum to back up plan insurance policy number four? Well, look, I would be cool with it because I would think this sounds easier than trying to rule Germany and Italy and control of Pope. But I'm a practical lady. I imagine maybe she felt it was a step down from the Holy Roman Empress of Europe

to just being Queen of England. Probably wasn't that exciting at that point. Well, I mean, Henry's not done with the marrying yet, is he? Of course. Well, she's only young, right? She's 24. 24! But 4 and 20, as Jane Rosting would say. She's almost a spinster, but not quite. So he marries her off again.

Okay. Again, inappropriate aged husband. Oh, what is he like? 80 or something, yeah. Other way around. Oh, no, he's like seven. He's a teenager, so she's the cougar this time. She's, how old's the new hubby?

So Jeffrey's only 15 when he gets married to Matilda. And the aged gap there is what? 11 years. So, you know, you're getting into another problematic marriage vaccine there. It's a whole other battery. I'm going to have to install another one. Sorry, she's not impressed, right? No, she's not.

Because again. He's Jeffrey, not of Monmouth. That's the only Jeffrey I know, guys. That's a good medieval name. Thank you. This is Geoffrey Plantagenet, right? Oh, Plantagenet, so he is Count of Anjou. So, Anjou's a central county in France at this point.

That's where we get the term Anjavin from, Onchavin, kings of England, which might... Not ingenue, as in... Not on Janu, no. I was like he wasn't Anjano, right, guys? Not that sophisticated. But, yeah, Matilda's not happy. He's socially inferior because he's only a count.

Remember, she's just been married to the Holy Roman Emperor, so she's got a teenager and a count. It's quite a big step down. A bit embarrassing. Yeah. But Geoffrey has made a knight very quickly to try and her elevated prestige in the eyes of Matilda. And when his father leaves to marry the Queen of Jerusalem, he's then made count. And does he just come over to England and just is living with her?

No, she goes over to... She has to go to Enjou, I see, so she has to go and live there. So she's on her fourth language by now, third language? We would have had Latin, French, German... Italian? Probably a bit of Italian, maybe a smattering of English. But Latin's the language of the court, so English is the language of the common people. And English at this time is what we'd call old English, so it's not modern English.

She's eating with a canife and a fork. Yes, yeah. Okay, so poor Matilda, so far, has gone from child bride to unwilling babysitter her own teenage husband. And she has a baby, and that's healthy. Second childbirth is very dangerous. Yes. She needs to die? Yes, she does think she's going to die.

she makes all her funeral arrangements and everything and, you know, sorts out of will effectively and her bequest because, yeah, she thinks this pregnancy is going to have killed her. But son number one is another Henry. Sure, why not? It ain't broke, don't fix it. Send me the second.

Yep, sum number two, the problematic one is Geoffrey. Oh, this is Geoffrey. Yeah, and they go on to have a third son, William as well. So that's it. Three beautiful, healthy boys, but yeah, pregnancy number. two is problematic. Okay. So there we go. So Dad so far has been ruling her love life. He's married her off twice. But crucially, in 1135, meddling dad, he passes away in 1135. The King of England is dead. And all those oaths have been sworn. Three oaths, the triple lock.

And you know how reliable bishops are in history. If they agree something, those bishops never let you down. So the next ruler of England, Carriad, is... Well, I imagine they're trying to stop it being Matilda. Mm, yeah. They're causing a council. Do they want it to go to her son? Are they trying to do it that way? I mean, that would make more sense, but no.

No, they just bring in some random. They always bring in some random. Who is it? Do you want to talk us through to Debbie? Yes, yeah. So, Matilda is literally beaten to the throne by her cousin, Stephen. Oh, Steve. Steve, shall we call him Steve?

Steve, I've heard of Stephen. Stephen Lefleur. He is crowned on the 22nd of December, so Henry dies on the 1st of December. Stephen is crowned on the 20 seconds. So literally. That is a quick party arrangement. It's even like the same age as her. You know, they have a cousin, a similar age,

and your families are like, well, Stephen got five-based dance in his UCSEs, Matilda. Stephen's going to Oxford. Like, Stephen's actually become King of England. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it does help, talking of meddling bishops. Stephen's brother is the Bishop of Winchester, which is a big.

Very handy. But Matilda, when we're talking about pregnancies, she has concerns with this third pregnancy and perhaps doesn't travel quite as quickly due to the risk. Is she pregnant when that happens when her dad does? Oh my, this poor woman, this is a lot to deal with. And she's also, to be fair, she's battling with her father at this point. So when Henry dies, they're not on good terms. There's a lot of complex trauma in the relationship and then a grief happens.

Yes, this is a lot. She's stressed. We've all been there. Then your cousin takes the, you know, the royal throne. Yeah. stuck in Normandy. That's it. So a cousin's swooping in.

So we have the double whammy here of brotherly nepotism and a man taking a woman's job while she's on maternity leave. It's the absolute 21st century. Something's never changed, right? Oh, something's never changed. Poor Matilda.

So, okay, let's hear about Stevie B, the throne thief. That's his hip-hop name. King Stephen, Stephen of Blois. Who is he? Yeah. So he's about 10 years older than Matilda. Even worse, yeah, yeah. If we go to 1092 birthday, he is the third son of King Henry I'm first sister, Adela.

So there is a family relationship there. He's a favourite of Henry the first. He grows up in the English court because his mum sent him there thinking it'd be more, you know, sophisticated than they'll learn. So he's well known by the nobles, which puts him in good stead when he does nip across the channel. He's been hanging out with the lads and the men's clubs. Yeah, I get you. And he's married to... Matilda.

Yes, he is. Ayrus to the county of Boulogne. Oh my God. That's our fifth Matilda, our final Matilda. Our fifth and final Matilda. Yes, okay. So the obvious question I have to ask you, Carriad, is how come Stephen is still alive when the white ship went down? Oh.

Why wasn't he on that ship? Was he on the other ship? He was not on the other ship. Wait, what? Is he a butcher from Rua? He, like, trained really hard and became King Stephen? No. Do you remember we said that they were having a very sort of boozy party?

Oh, did he pass out and didn't get on the ship? He got so drunk. He didn't get on the ship. He didn't get on the ship because he had debilitating diarrhea. He had debilitating diarrhea, a brutal hangover, didn't get on the ship. He didn't get on the way to ship because he had the... Yeah, it's like final destination. You know those sort of final destination movies if someone doesn't get on the plane and it crashes and they're like,

yeah, so he was saved. We've had people in the past who had shut himself to death, but he was saved by his diarrhea. So all the other male possible airs were on that ship apart from Stephen? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That is bold, isn't it? You don't want to bring that up at a dinner party, though, don't you?

No, being like, don't give me too much being, though, because. But also like, Stephen, how comes? Because your brother, all these people. Yeah, I, um, no, I was, I was there. Why don't you get the ship? Well, um. It was too proud. It was too busy.

I wouldn't have fitted on. Yeah, it was a busy day at the harbour. I couldn't find it. Yeah. Wow. So there we go. So Stephen is the king. Matilda gives birth,

survives the childbirth, thankfully. To William, yeah. And now she looks across the channel and goes, hang on a second, that's my throne. That's mine. That's mine. Should have been me. Yeah, okay.

So what does she do next? She sails over with an army and says, that is my bloody throne. She doesn't need any jewels. She's already got her own crown jewels. That's right. She's brought her own. She bought a German, German hat.

Get out of my friend, Stephen. Yeah, I think it's time now for the anarchy, which doesn't mean that you can start throwing chairs around the studio. So this is when she forms a heavy metal band. That's right. She plays ribbon guitar. Matilda and the Anarchy. That's a great name for bands.

It's a great name for a band, isn't it? They do weddings, bomb it. I mean, it's what you want. We are now into the Anarchy, which is not a medieval phrase. Victorian. Okay. Coined it as the Anarchy. Because it's that idea that society completely fell apart.

And there are bits of society that are absolutely wrecked by, war during this period, but not all of it. So would we call this a civil war? Yeah, I think 12th century civil war. The lesser known of the civil war. Sure. Perhaps. This is history's heroes, people with purpose, brave ideas,

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But Matilda, you know, she spent that time in Normandy. They focus on taking that first. I think that's the way forward. But as we say, we get to around 1138, 1139. She's like, hang on. Now I need to focus on taking England. Yeah. Several of the English barons, including her half-brother, Robert of Gloucester, who comes in very handy, renounced their oaths to Stephen.

Matilda's uncle, David, the King of Scotland, also caused his problem up in the north. 1139, she does apply for the Pope to try and support her claim, but he's not interested. He doesn't reply to her letters. How do you apply to the Pope? You just fill in a form. It really sounded like she applied for a job. Yeah. Yeah, but no luck there.

But she decides to sail for England anyway in September 1139. and fortunately her stepmother Adeliza who's at Arendall says oh come here I'll support you Arndall's a very lovely town very nice day out got a great castle lovely castle lovely antique shops good cafes so her ex-husband had kidnapped the Pope so it's no surprise that the Pope is holy ghost to her I don't know why she's applying to him like it's a long shot right

how old was Matilda at this point late 30s she's 37 yeah she's coming into her own she knows what she wants Yeah, and again, all that experience she had in Germany, she knows she can rule. Yeah. So. Carriad, we've got Matilda who's made military enroads. She's got useful alliances. She's got family, Roberts, she's got her step-in-arm, her uncle. Okay, so the country's divided, civil war.

Yeah. What team would you have chosen? Team Matilda or team Stephen. And before you give me your answer, I'm just going to give you a little bit of an etymological history here. Stephen means crown in ancient Greek. So that's quite a handy name for a king. But Matilda, in old German, means mighty in battle. So where are you siding?

Who would you go for? Guys, this is a lot of pressure. I'm siding with Matilda because I've only really heard her story. I don't know much about Stephen other than he's a lad's lad. It's reminded me of Catherine and Aragon, Henry the 8th because it's like they surely everyone kind of knows Matilda, right? But she hasn't been in England for very long. She hasn't been in England for very long?

She left at 8? Yeah, she's been over in Europe, hasn't she? And then she came back, but she was a bit foreign. So the English court probably is going with Stephen more than Matilda. But I'm with Matilda. Okay. I'm with Mighty in Battle. Mighty in Battle.

Although when I think about the ruler with the kings and queens on, I don't really remember Matilda being there repeatedly, so I'm a bit worried that it's not going to work out well for old Tilis. The horror history song goes William, William, Henry Stephen, Henry, Richard John. There's no Matilda in there. There's no Matilda. Okay. Gabby, talk us through the war then.

This brutal anarchy, this civil war. It's easy to think of this as a dynastic war, but a civil war means the ordinary population are caught up in the violence. Yeah, because they are. are vassals of the lords, the barons who take sides in this and therefore get involved in the battles and we do have quite a few battles. So once Matilda's got to Arndall, enjoyed the castle, had a few scenic walks, makes her way over to Bristol off to the west country because her half brother Robert Duke of Gloucester is there. So he's got people on side for her. So they decide

to start battling. This civil war actually doesn't get off to a great start. They hit a stalemate pretty quickly because the barons are interested in bits of land as opposed to actually who's on the throne. You know what? Barons are always are interested in it land. People should just come with land and then give that to the barons if they want to get the throne. Yeah. There are very few positive barons in history.

Yeah. This kind of carries on for about two years. In February 1141 have a breakthrough. Battle of Lincoln. Stephen is captured. So Matilda has Stephen in chains and he's imprisoned at Bristol Castle. Wow. And she's

now is the queen, yes? Yes? No, the barons don't back it, right? Come on. No, no, absolutely. She's not there yet. So, we have this little period where she is arranging to get herself crowned in London, in Westminster, of course. So she starts minting some coins.

Great. Lady of the English stamped on the coins as like a precursor to becoming queen. And she proceeds to London to be crowned, but the Londoners reject her. They will not let her in. But Carriad told me at the beginning of the episode that she was very popular. I've obviously remembered that completely incorrectly that when... I'm sure I remember him saying that she was like that Stephen was not as popular and the people cheered Matilda.

Queen Matilda, Stephen's wife, is popular. Oh, maybe I've made tell her with Matilda. The other Matilda. That may be where Atroy's coming from. It's very easy to mix you Matilda's. Got five Matilda's to deal with. We have. There was something that she was very popular and the crammer.

were like cheering outside Westminster Abbey so not for Empress Matilda who they're like you have you been mate they were cheering for Queen. So there's already a Queen Matilda. There is Stephen's wife Queen Matilda so for simplicity I will do Queen Matilda and Empress Matilda yeah so there you go I had read about Queen Matilda and I thought it was our Matilda but she's Empress Matilda this is where the confusion but but there's always a historical but isn't her so Queen Matilda's actually been threatening the Londoners anyway so as much as they like her she does have armies going no no empress she's not coming in empress matilda's also made a few poor political choices so she won't give london the special privileges that they've always held she's trying

to get money from them they're just like you're not coming in love don't annoy the londoners mate don't annoy them yeah so you know we've seen that she's had all this political skill but it just doesn't pay off here it really doesn't is it because she's showing up wearing her German crown, wearing her German shoes, saying, hello, I am here. I am your queen. I don't think you need those privileges anymore and you will need to pay me tax so I can live in Bristol. Yeah. I mean, we'll get to the, I think we'll talk about this later, the kind of the reasons why. But I think it's a, it must have been a humiliating moment, right? The rightful queen who has won militarily, who has captured the, you know, the wonderful. Yeah, yeah, she should

by right. She should by right. She should by right. And yet the people of London like get out love, you know, you're not around it. And, and she just goes home. Yeah, what happens? No, so she flees back to the West Country and, you know, where she's safe and, you know, tries to negotiate with Matilda. So we've got the Battle of the Matilda's now going on because Stephen's still in prison. So we have the Siege of Winchester in September 1141, but Empress Matilda doesn't come out of this very well either. She's forced to flee when Queen Matilda rocks up with her armies yet again. Wow, this Queen Matilda is like hot on her heels, isn't she?

of like powerful woman and using her political strength. And unfortunately, Winchester goes very badly because Robert of Gloucester, Empress Matilda's half-prop was captured. Oh, no. So now we have the negotiations of Matilda being like, give me back Stephen, Matilda, give me back, Robert, Stephen, Robert, and... Get out of my pub!

This is like Pat and Peggy all over again. Yeah. Very equally matched. Different sides of the square, but basically the same person. So she swapped Stephen for Georgie Gloucester. Yeah. And Stephen is released and then goes back on the throne. Yeah, straight back on that throne.

With his very powerful and clever and politically astute wife, Matilda. Yeah. Well, it's got a rub in a little bit, hasn't it? It's the same name. So everyone's like, oh, I love that Queen Matilda. And she's like, oh, oh, you mean that one. Yeah, yeah. And then we get an even bigger disaster, Gabby.

Oh, no. Battle of Oxford. Yeah. So this is 1142. So Empress Matilda is a game. forced to flee. And this is really her last rallying cry in terms of what she gets

up to at this moment in time. Stephen besieges the city. They are sieged for three months and eventually she is forced to escape. She escapes wearing a white cloak to disguise her amongst the snow as she sneaks out the gate. Wow, that's Game of Thrones.

It's sort of, it's kind of camouflage, right? It's sort of sneaky, sneaky. But you can see one of the characters in the white, you know, John Snow is like come this way and then she puts her white cloak and then runs through. Presumely, an ermine fur. Presumely, I'm trying to think what's a white animal

that they would have skinned in anticipation. Like, come here, a little weasel. Thousand white ferrets. Literally, it's a lot of animals. We're skinned for you, maternal. So she sneaks out the back door, hides in the snow, rides the safety. So she's not captured.

She is the European hide-and-seat champion. Yeah, yeah. Does she go back to Europe at this point? I mean, in the movie, escaping in the snow, that would be the beginning of the comeback, right? But in terms of the history books. Yeah, unfortunately not. So she does

try to rally a couple more times, but she's lost her. Yeah, she lost it, babe, it's gone. The moment's gone. Yeah, and I mean, Stephen's had himself crowned for a second time to reassert his authority, rarely salt in the wound. Not King once, but King twice, Londoners. Let me hear you.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. If you remember her older son, Henry. Yep. So he does try and invade in 1147 on the name of his mum. In the name of his mum. Oh, it's so adorable. But he does this without any money, without Matilda's knowledge. That's classic teenager, isn't it?

Yeah, you know, absolutely. Very much, he's 14. That's so sweet. This is actually my, I should be like the king. It's so reasonable. And Stephen has to pay for Henry's troops to go away because Henry doesn't have the money to pay them. Oh, that's so charming.

He's done his first. It's embarrassing. It's really, it's really cringe, isn't it? And then he comes back two years later, 1149, and that's a failure as well because the attack pretty much disintegrates as soon as he lands. He doesn't have the best of luck.

Matilda transferred her claim over to him and he does these little hurries over the next few years, but it doesn't really get anywhere. Until he's going to say, because he becomes Henry the second at some point and he's the start of the Plantagenet. right? So yeah, when does he

get his stuff together? Well, it's worth mentioning, we haven't mentioned so far. Eustace Eustace is the king's son, Stephen's son and he carcks it. He sort of keels over dead. He'd been the heir apparent. Yeah, you don't get King Eustace bandied around. No, but

interestingly, Stephen doesn't seem very sure on naming Eustace as his heir. So he had tried to have him kind of crowned as a co-king, but the Pope at the time said no we're not having two kings

in England at the same time so he can't be co-king I was he tried to deal with the problem that happened to Matilda by being like I'm just going to like start him as a CEO now we're both the CEOs

and we're both in charge Job shit I do Mondays and Wednesdays throws so basically when I die you're already got a king that you're used to yeah but Eustace just isn't really put in place

He's useless useless to useless Yeah effectively and Henry has gone off made a sterling marriage for himself to Eleanor of Aquitaine. So he's now got even more resources. So once Eustace dies... And he's got the need for vengeance.

Yes. Like he's got the... Like a country was taken from him. He's been waiting in Normandy all this time, training. Yeah. And day a taekondos. Yeah. It's worth pointing out, though, that Eustace has a brother.

Yes. There is an heir. Just sitting there going, I can do it. I'm here. I'm also here, Dad. Yeah, and Stephen's like, absolutely not. So they have... Which is brother called?

William. Oh, another William. Another useless William. It's just like, well, I've done all the exams. Yeah, so... I'm ready. Put me in, Dad, I'm ready. It's like the Roman in succession.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, we got Kendall, we don't need you. Yeah, so Stephen and Henry make the Treaty of Winchester agree that Henry will give advice to Stephen whilst he's still ruling. Okay. On how to rule. Henry is named as heir and William is going to renounce all his claims to the throne and has to Pledge allegiance to Henry.

Even though he's the rightful king of England. That's really weird, isn't it? It's brutal, isn't it? Yeah. Wow. If it feels like there's a whole vibe of, like, everybody was like, yeah, no, not William. Like, obviously not William, right? No, no, no, it's fine.

It can be Henry. Never mind this huge war we had with his mum. So we've had a sort of an anarchic civil war that's lasted, I mean, over a decade, right? But this is mad because her air then becomes king anyway. So Stephen Bacey just wanted, he just wanted. had the throne for a bit. He wasn't bothered about his dynasty. Yeah, his dynasty starting. It was just like, no, I just want

to go at this job. But then I'm going to give it to your son. He just didn't want Matilda to have it. Yeah, well that's interesting, isn't it, right? Is there something to that? It's Carriad Wright. It just doesn't want a woman on the throne. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is potentially part of it in terms of

you know, Matilda goes over what you expect to see of women at this point. We don't expect to see a woman ruling in England. But there is the slight issue as well they don't like Geoffrey of Vondue they don't like Matilda's husband they're worried about foreign influence

if she becomes queen like what's his royal going to be is she going to like ruling her own right or is they're trying to bypass that but then they install his son who must be yeah of the same lineage but he's still a man

Carriac and that's much more acceptable so it's quite a sensible compromise at the end of this devastating civil war everyone's sort of gone come on let's just disagree on this and everyone's going, all right, all right. Yeah, because like Henry II is royal.

His lineage is good. And he has all this land through his wife. He has all the land with wife. Although the opposite applied for Matilda, you know, the idea of the husband being a problem, the queen, the wife is not a problem, right? Eleanor is great. That's very handy. She's not going to have any decision.

She's just going to bring the land. Okay, I can see why they're on board. So King Stephen died in October 1154. Henry the 2nd becomes the king. So Matilda's son on the throne And Matilda gets to be what, Queen Mum? Yeah, I mean, she is a bit of a... Is she sort of the Chris Jenner here?

Is she kind of a mummiger? I mean, she's got three sons to try and keep in line a bit. And yeah, absolutely, she rises from the ashes and is really involved. So she looks after Normandy pretty much full-time whilst Henry's absent. Now, bearing in mind, obviously, Henry's got England, he's got all these lands that he's got from Eleanor, Aquitaine, and his various other counties. So Matilda keeps an eye on Normandy

Again, gets involved with the Archbishops So we had mum Mum dealing with Archbishop of Canterbury 1 We have Matilda dealing with Thomas Beckett and Henry And trying to mediate between them And she doesn't go great that, let's be honest No, it doesn't One of history's great, not the outcome you're looking for

No, but she tries, she tries We've got letters from the time that showed That she was very politically astute She does get involved, she's very well respected So, for example, Henry decides to try and invade Ireland in 1155 and Matilda warns him against it. And then that doesn't go ahead at that moment in time. He does try later after she's died.

But she still brings all her experience to the fore. And you kind of think she must have had a sense of, I never became queen. But I get to rule through Henry, which is a pretty common female role at this royal family. Yeah, she gets to see her son doing a job and doing it sort of for it. And Henry II is one of the great kings of English medieval history, right? He's controversial, he has a temper, he kills the archbishop in the sacred cathedral, so it's not ideal, but he's often, he often goes down as one of the great kings.

Yes, definitely. And presumably that's partly because of Matilda's influence. Yeah, I mean, I argue he has a great wife and a great mum, and they do carry a lot of the work until he pushes them off to one side. And then you can check out the Eleanor Rackqueton episode for the rest of that. Yes, yes. But, yes. So Matilda dies in 1167, age, she's about 60s. She does well.

And she dies in Rouenne in Normandy. Yeah, and she's buried at the Abbey of Beck, which is somewhere where she spent a lot of her life. It was where she gave birth to her second son, and it's a place that's really important to her. So Normandy is her life, really. But I think she's content with that because it's somewhere she still has power.

Yeah, she does end up in power. Yeah. But not as high as maybe she would hope for. Yeah, and Jeffrey's long dead by this point, well, her husband, Geoffrey. So she kind of just go down the line. And Henry the second is the first Plantagenet King, is that right? So she starts

a dynasty. She does. Yes, yeah. And a really good dynasty in terms of the name of the ignition. Yeah, yeah, the Plantagenet. All the way up to Rich the Third, yeah. So we kind of discussed it a little bit already, Gabby. The idea that people rejected a woman, London said no, and there was a sort

of moment like, everyone was like, wow, we prefer a man. There is this sort of accusation that Matilda is haughty, arrogance, sort of steps on people's toes, and puts noses out of a joint and maybe hasn't got like the kind of soft skills. Yeah. Where do you stand on that one? Yeah, so I think there's an element, certainly of like 12th century sexism from the writers of the time.

They do expect queens to be in power temporarily, but we have Uraca of Leon Castile, we have medicine of Jerusalem. We do have other women who rule in their own right at this time, so it's not uncommon. They're always daughters of kings, is that fair? So it's rare for them to rule sort of having acquired power of them. that it's often handed down. Yeah, it's usually inherited. But as I mentioned, they are suspicious of the role Geoffrey's going to play

with regards to that foreign influence. She does make mistakes. She winds up the Londoners. She does release Stephen, so perhaps not all that political skills there. But given the chance, she could have done a good job. And we see that in Normandy. But then interesting, the release of Stephen is, so she doesn't murder a king. No.

And then that allows her son to become. the start of a dynasty. So actually are we looking at her skills in a very masculine, powerful, overruling set of skills of like, well, you didn't get to the throne, that means you failed? Whereas actually does she play a much more manipulative politicians game? I give you the king back so that I can then

guarantee this. So she actually does get what she wants, which is the lineage, right? Yeah. And I think she doesn't conform to the gendered boundaries I expect. I mean, you talk about masculinity there. She expects to be kind of of female king she expects to be assuming all that power and therefore comes in with the expectation again she's already been holy roman empress she's coming in expecting to rule she's got the crown yeah as opposed to perhaps being that more kind of soft diplomacy with the nobles and

getting them on side more delicately she's a bit more forceful and i think that's where some of that haughtiness comes from like she's not like when people say she's a diva but it's like well is she a diva or does she a woman who knows what she would like yes you know She was Celine Dion of the 12th century, and there's nothing wrong with that. There we go. Celine Dion of the 12th century. The nuance window! Okay, time now for the nuance window.

This is the part of the show where Carriette and I quietly try to remember all the five Matildas and three Henrys that we've mentioned, while Dr. Gabby takes to the battlefield to tell us something that we need to know about Empress Matilda and medieval queenship. So my stopwatch is ready. You've got two minutes. Take it away, Dr Gabby. So I want to talk about medieval queens as co-rulers because I think there's this idea that medieval queens are just there to give birth to children and that's it and maybe they're quite pious,

maybe they focus on what we call soft power. But actually, these are women who can rule in their own rights, so to speak. They are very powerful. They can share power with the king. And Matilda does this really well with Geoffrey in terms of sharing power and sharing her rights. They work very well together as a couple. But going beyond Matilda, we see this again,

fantastically with Eleanor of Aquitaine. She brings her power from Aquitaine as Duchess and shares that with Henry. So I think we need to move beyond the idea that it's always the king that's giving and sharing power. It's women who can actually bring a lot to the marriage, bring a lot to rulership through a different set of skills, whether that's diplomacy and soft skills, patronage,

mediating with the bishops when they're being a bit naughty. Women are very capable of exercising power. They do do it on a regular basis and it's not just agency. It's not just something that's soft. Directly with Matilda, we don't see her leading an army at the front of it, but we do see women leading armies in this period as well.

So I think there's much more to be said about queens being able to actually directly rule. Not all power is vested in one match. It's shared with his mum, in the case of Matilda. It's shared with his wife. It can be shared with his daughters or, you know, sometimes with other men. But, you know, with governors and regents and so forth as well. So I think there's a lot more to medieval queens than maybe we think they're not just there to give birth to children.

They do quite well. Thank you so much, Gabby. Fascinating, Caroline. Yeah, amazing. Absolutely amazing. Yeah. It's been quite a life, Matilda's life. I can't wait to see the film.

I can't wait to see Anne Hathaway in a white coat sneaking out. Cape Blanchet. I feel like Kate Blanchet might be good. Who's playing the eight-year-old? I mean, that's tough, isn't it? That's tough. You've got to do a big national casting for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, obviously. That's huge. That's huge. But for the later Queen Miss Empress Matilda.

Yeah. So what do you know now? Time now for the sub what do you know now? This is our quickfire quiz for Carriad to see. how much she's learned. Carriad, you're very good at the quizzes. I know, but I always get really stressed. I feel like history Jesus E all over again. If you're in an absolute crisis situation, just say Matilda or Henry, and you're probably doing, right?

Yeah, yeah, probably right. But here we go, ten questions. Okay. Question one. Who was Matilda's father, who betrothed her eight to be married and maybe killed his own brother? Henry the first. It was, what I'm sorry? I doubted myself there. I was like, Henry the first, yeah. Question two. Where did Matilda spend most of her youth and teenage years? Germany. It was Germany. Question three. What was the white ship disaster?

The white ship disaster, Greg, it's a real big incident in medieval history I'm surprised Carrey didn't know about it This is where they're sailing back from Normandy to England And Henry the First son was on there, William And there was another ship that went off But they all got drunk They shouldn't have been steering a ship They shouldn't have been doing it

It's like Hollyoaks when the young guys get drunk and get in a car And 300 sailors died And the only person left was the butcher of Rowan Who claims, which I'm doubting the story He's like, well, everyone had to do too good a time. They set sail at night. You think it's a CIA job, you think? You think it's an assassinate, it's a hit.

All the airs and all the illegitimate sons died, including Williams. William, Henry the first son. Very comprehensive answer. Well done. Question four. Why did Matilda not want to marry her second husband, Geoffrey of Anjou? Because he was a teenager, he was 15, and he was not as high up as her. He was made a count of Anjou, but he wasn't as high up.

Very good. Well done. Question five. Who seized the throne when Henry the first died instead of Matilda, the rightful queen? Well, of course, King Stephen. Yes, because his name means crowns. You know, it's an easy mistake to make. Question six, why didn't Stephen drown in the white ship in 1120? Because he had diarrhea of the bottom. And it was coming out of him like a river. And so he could not move and he was not a well man.

That's right. He had regal fecal design. Question 7. How did Matilda cunning in the escape from the castle after losing the Battle of Oxford? She put a white cloak on and padded out into the snow where she could then get away. Yeah, camouflage back in the 1140s. Look at you in your notes. Question 8. Who led Stephen's army against Matilda after his capture? Queen Matilda? Yeah, yeah.

Queen Matilda, the other Matilda who the Londoners did like. Exactly that. Question nine. Why did the people of London turn Empress Miss Matilda away when she tried to be crowned. She was trying to charge them extra money. She was trying to take away their privileges. And the Londoner's like, we ain't having it. We ain't having it, Empress.

We got another Matilda. We don't need you. Very good. And this is for a perfect turn. What was the sensible compromise that ended the anarchy? King Stephen agreed to let Henry, Empress Matilda's son, become king, hence starting the Plantagenet dynasty in 1154. 10 out of 10, Carriead Lloyd.

Absolutely incredible. Well done. Brilliant. Well done, Carriad. Thank you very much. And, of course, thank you so much, Gabby, for a wonderful history lesson. A listener, if you want more medieval queens with Dr. Gabi, you can check out our episode on Eleanor Akitaine, featuring Carriad's ostentious castmate, Rachel Paris. For more Carriad, obviously we've got lots of episodes with you. But Agrippina and the Younger and Mary Wollstonecraft are two of my faves. And for more argumentative English royals, there's always our episode on the causes of the British Civil Wars, which we've now discovered is the second English civil war. But that's very confusing. So we'll Let's pretend. Let's call it the anarchy as a whole other thing.

I'd just like to say huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We had the fantastic Dr. Gabrielle's story. Thank you, Gabby. Thank you, Greg and Carriad. Well done for not throwing any chairs around. It was a very, it was a very placid anarchy today, wasn't it? We were very calm. And in Comedy Corner, we had the ever brilliant Carriad Lloyd. Thank you, Carriad.

Oh, au revoir, monseigne, as they would have said. I mean, now's not the time to point out that 12th century French was actually a bit more Viking-sounding. It was much more harsh Norman. Aque Vervat, Monsieur de. The Caesar Cays in Norman French. It's Knife. It's sharp. Yes. And to you lovely listener, join me next time as we consider both sides of another historical argument

and then settle it with a compromise. But for now, I'm off to lock up my cousin before he tries to snatch the podcast from me. It's mine, all mine. Bye! Your death to me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4. Strong message here from BBC Radio 4. I'm Amanda Unucci. And I'm Helen Lewis. A comedy writer and a journalist teaming up like a pair of unkempt and unlikely superheroes.

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