You're Dead to Me - Empress Matilda (Radio Edit)

Episode Date: November 7, 2025

Greg Jenner is joined in twelfth-century England by Dr Gabrielle Storey and comedian Cariad Lloyd to learn all about Empress Matilda and the medieval civil war known as the Anarchy.A granddaughter of William the Conqueror, Matilda was born into England’s new Norman royal family. As a young girl she was used as a dynastic pawn by her father and sent to Germany to marry the Holy Roman Emperor. Here she was crowned empress and trained to rule.When her younger brother died, followed by her husband, Matilda returned to England to take her place as her father’s heir. But after her father’s death she was beaten to the throne by her cousin Stephen, and so began the medieval civil war known as the Anarchy. Although Matilda ultimately lost, her son, Henry, was made Stephen’s heir, and he went on to rule with support and advice from his royal mother. So who was the real winner?This episode traces Matilda’s dramatic life from daughter of a king to empress of Germany to queen-in-waiting of England. Along the way, we ask whether medieval sexism prevented her from taking the throne, and look at the ways a woman could rule in twelfth-century Europe.This is a radio edit of the original podcast episode. For the full-length version, please look further back in the feed.Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Clara Chamberlain Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are moseying back to medieval England and throwing fists in the fiercest of family feuds as we learn all about Empress Matilda and the Anarchy. And joining our Royal Court are two very special guests. In History Corner, she's a historian of monarchy and sexuality, specialising in. in medieval history. She's the author of Beringaria of Navarre, Queen of England and Lord of

Le Mans. And you'll remember her from my episode on Eleanor of Akitaine. It's Dr. Gabrielle's Story. Welcome back, Gabby. Great. Thanks for having me back. And in Comedy Corner, she's a multi-talented comedian, actor, writer. You'll know her from the TV panel show. She's an author. Her new children's book, Where Does She Go? It's a lovely analysis of grief for kids. It's beautiful. Plus, she has a career as a Jane Austen Improv Whiz in the hilarious, ostentatious improv show. She's a busy woman, and you'll definitely remember her from our episodes of Your Dead's including Georgian courtship and the arts and crafts movement is the wonderful Carriad Lloyd. Welcome back Carriad.

Ahoy there, Sirah, as they said, in medieval times, yes? Good morrow, upon thee, yes? Gabby's nodding like, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's your classic English greeting. Well, we do need it in Anglo-French for this episode. Bonjour, Cyril, sa-va. Now, Carriad, together we have done Agrippina the Younger of Rome. Yep.

A sort of empress. We've done plenty of regency in Victoria. We've not done medieval together. We have not gone back to medieval time. And so when I say to you, Empress Matilda and the Anarchy, you think... I feel like I have one piece of information about Matilda, but it could be wrong, but I feel like I read it once in Peter Aykroyd London. And I only remember two things from Peter Aykroy's London.

And I feel like she was a really popular queen. That's what I thought about Matilda. And that when she came out Westminster Abbey once, they were cheering her. And that's the area of St. Giles was. a slum. I'm so sorry, Pete Dachroyd. It's a very large tone. It's a very big book, very heavy. Yeah, I should remember more. Popular Queen. Interesting. We will address that later, I think. Okay, that's far. That is not what I would have. Oh, no. Well, take it up with Pete Dachroyd, not me. So, what do you know? Great, that brings us to the first segment

of the podcast, which is the So What Do You Know? This is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And for most of you, Matilda is most probably going to be the heroine from the Royal Doll story, more so than medieval royal diva, I suspect. But you may have read Ken Follett's famous mega-massive medieval novel, The Pillars of the Earth, which in 2010 was turned into a TV series as well. And of course, if video games are more your speed, and particularly if you're an elder millennial like me, you may have played Age of Empires 2 expansion pack, ooh, in which you can battle against Empress Matilda. But who was the real life, Matilda. How did a family squabble turn into a full-blown civil war? Let's find out. Right, Dr Gabby,

when was Matilda born? Where are we in history? And are we talking royal baby? Yeah, so we're talking about England to start off with, though France will jump into the scene on quite a few occasions. They always do. Yeah, but Matilda's born around February 1102. She is the daughter of Henry I, King of England, who was the youngest son of William the Conquer. also known by another name that's not Radio 4 friendly, so we're keeping it at that for the moment. And her mother was Matilda of Scotland. And Matilda of Scotland is descendant of Alfred the Great. So this gives some legitimacy.

Wow. She's like, she's royalty. We don't know loads, unfortunately, about her upbringing. So royal girls are often raised in nunneries. And sometimes they're at court with their mothers. If they're at court with their mothers, then they're travelling round. You know, we know that she goes to Exeter. She's in Norwich, Windsor, Canes. So she does move round of the court quite a bit.

Now, her mum, Matilda of Scotland, she is very cultured, she's very pious, so she wants to pass that on to her daughter. But Matilda of Scotland is also very keen on exercising power. So we can see her with a good amount of political authority, again, something Junie and Matilda's going to pick up on. And when we say travel about, you know, you mentioned Exeter and it's sort of sunny climbs, you know, sweltering Exeter.

But she went considerably further at a young age. Do you want to guess where, Carriad? France? Further than France. Oh, may we? Germany. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

All the way to Germany. All the way to Germany. So she went to the school exchange for the Germany because the French one was full. It wasn't a school exchange program, Carrie. Oh, it was to meet a man to marry. Yeah. It was marriage exchange. Yeah.

You know what, Greg? They look down on that schools these days. Yeah, yeah. Often on this show, I have to sort of honk my problematic marriage claxon. How old are we talking here, Gabby? Oh, yeah, how old? Eight. Oh, now look, I've heard some low numbers before on this program,

but that is low. Medieval. What is wrong with you? I mean, officially engaged at the age of eight. That's fine. That's fine then. Yeah, no way. I mean, the marriage is delayed for a few years because even then they realised that that's quite young to be being married. But they would like say it like, this is going to happen.

We're just making sure everyone we've signed the contracts. Yeah. You can see what you're buying. But they're not going to actually get married for a while. Yeah. I mean, I'm making it sound like a lot. It's reasonable. Yeah, but she does go out at eight, right?

Yes, yeah. To Germany. So her father is arranged. Her father is Henry. Yeah. And she's betrothed to who? Henry. Oh, another one.

I can't call him Heinrich or something. He's also Henry, the fifth. Henrik, yeah. Oh, Heinrich, the fifth. Yep, Heinrich. And he is what? And he is King of the Romans. So Germany at this time, also you go by the title of King of the Romans.

That can be King of Germany, King of the Romans. Because most of the Romans, because most of the Romans. the rulers become Holy Roman Emperor as well, which is what happens to Henry. And Matilda is also crowned even before she's married. She's crowned Queen of the Romans at Mainz on the 25th of July 1110. They give her a party. Yeah, so she's, yeah, she gets the crown, she gets the party before she even gets married. So that's not a bad deal for an eight-year-old. Well, it is. I mean, it's a terrible deal, but they do give her a party. And look, everyone wants to call her

in the caterpillar cake, other cakes are available. But it's still not ideal if she's going to have to marry. Das Henry Fumpf. Yes, she does become Queen very young, but she gets so much experience while she's in Germany. She's trained to rule from a young age, which puts her in good stead for the future. Henry and Matilda are married in 1114,

just before she turns 12. Wow, really. They can't even wait until she's 12. Yeah, so the problematic marriage clacton can still... Continues, yeah. Well, if you engage at eight, it's a long time before that claxon is going to stop ringing. Yeah, I need new batteries for the claxon. Matilda is finally crowned Holy Roman Empress, Imperatrix Romanorum, in 11 to 17.

So they're crowned not by the Pope, by the Archbishop of Braga. And therefore, this isn't quite a legitimate ceremony either. But Matilda takes this on fully and, like, well, no, I'm Empress now. That's going to be my title. That's what I'm going to use. But she's like 12 at this point, like 14 or something. She's probably like 15, I think of at this point She's suddenly demoted in 1125

Oh, what? What happened to her? You know, she's been ruling Italy, she's the Empress And then suddenly, nope Because Henry VIII dies, Heimrich Passes away Does Henry Fumph is dead Caput He goes kaput

Henry 5th, oh no So he just dies, but she's left unprotected Yeah, because she's 23, she's a widow They have no children But she decides to go back to England in 1126 And she does not go back alone She decides to take back some of the jewels with her So she takes two of Henry's crowns

There's another reason that she's needed back home Her dad, King Henry King Henry He's lost his air I mean it's a huge dynastic catastrophe So November 1120 The English Royal Court's been in France Because they possess Normandy at this point

So they've got control over both of those areas Now Henry and his son William are meant to be sailing back on separate ships William on the white ship which was captained by Thomas Fitz Stephen and his father had captained the ship that actually brought William the Conquer over in the first place Oh so it's a nepo hire

Now as it's typical Dad sets off first But William and the nobles decide to have a bit of a party Before they get on the ship And Fitz Stephen claimed that despite the delay caused by their drinking that he would still be able to race past and overtake Henry's ship. So the sailors leave at night and go into a stretch of water

that's filled with submerged rocks. So, yes, the rock rips the hole, ship sinks, and all but one of the 300 passengers die, which is a butcher from Ruan. So we only have one butcher's word. Let me tell you, it was not me. They were also drunk. So you didn't drink.

No, no, no, no, no, no. I was not the one who bought the booze. So Matilda returning to England, kind of handy, because suddenly, here's an air. Yeah. But a woman. Yeah, how do they feel about that? Not unknown for women to rule in Europe at this point, but they've not had it in England before, certainly not in the Kingdom of England.

Henry decides to get married again just in case. But he does make plans, so he does ask the bishops and magnates of England to swear oaths three times to acknowledge Matilda as Queen if he dies. Henry's not done with the marrying yet, is he? Of course, well, she's only young, right? She's 24. 24! But 4 and 20, as Jane Rostin would say.

She's almost a spinster, but not quite. So he marries her off again. Okay. Again, inappropriate aged husband. Oh, what is he, like 80 or something? Other way around. Oh, no, he's like seven. He's a teenager, so she's the cougar this time.

She's... How old's the new hubby? So, Geoffrey's only 15 when he gets married to Matilda. And the aged gap there is what? 11 years. So, you know, we're getting into another problematic marriage class in there. She's not impressed, right? No, she's not.

He's Geoffrey, not of Monmouth. That's the only Geoffrey, I know, guys. That's a good medieval name. Thank you. This is Geoffrey Plantagenet, right? Oh, Plantagenet. So he is Count of Anjou. So Anjou's a central county in France, as fine.

But, yeah, Matilda's not happy. he's socially inferior because he's only a count. Remember, she's just been married to the Holy Roman Emperor, so she's got a teenager and a count. It's quite a big step down. A bit embarrassing. Yeah. And does he just come over to England and just is living with her?

No, she goes over to... Oh, she has to go to Enjou, I see, so she has to go and live there. Paul Matilda, so far, has gone from child bride to unwilling babysitter her own teenage husband, and she has a baby, and that's healthy. Second childbirth is very dangerous. Yes, she does think she's going to die. she makes all her funeral arrangements and everything

and, you know, sorts out of will effectively because, yeah, she thinks this pregnancy is going to have killed her. But son number one is another Henry. Sure, why not? It ain't broke, don't fix it. Send me the second. Yep, sum number two, the problematic one is Geoffrey and they go on to have a third son, William as well.

So that's it. Three beautiful, healthy boys, but yeah, pregnancy number two is problematic. Okay. So Dad so far has been ruling her love life. He's married her off twice. But crucially, in 1135, meddling dad, passes away at 1135.

The King of England is dead. And all those oaths have been sworn. Three oaths, a triple lock. And you know how reliable bishops are in history. If they agree something, those bishops never let you down. So the next ruler of England, Carriad, is... Well, I imagine they're trying to stop it being Matilda. Do they want it to go to her son?

Are they trying to do it that way? I mean, that would make more sense, but no. They just bring in some random. They always bring in some random. Who is it? Do you want to talk us through to that? Yes, yeah. So, Matilda is literally beaten to the throne by her cousin, Stephen.

Oh, Steve. Steve, shall we call him Steve? Steve, I've heard of Stephen. Stephen Le Blois. He is crowned on the 22nd of December. So Henry dies on the 1st of December. Stephen is crowned on the 20 seconds. So literally.

That is a quick party arrangement. It's even like the same age as, so. You know, they have a cousin, a similar age, and the families are like, well, Stephen got five-based stars in his UCSEs, Matilda. Stephen's going to Oxford, like, Stephen's actually become King of England. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it does help, talking of meddling bishops. Stephen's brother is the Bishop of Winchester, which is a big.

Very handy. But Matilda, when we're talking about pregnancies, she has concerns with this third pregnancy and perhaps doesn't travel quite as quickly due to the risk. So we have to double whammy here, of brotherly nepotism and a man taking a woman's job while she's on maternity leave. It's the absolute 21st century. Something's never changed, right?

Oh, something's never changed. Poor Matilda. So, okay, let's hear about Stevie B, the throne thief. That's his hip-hop name. King Stephen, Stephen of Blois. Who is he? Yeah. So he's about 10 years older than Matilda.

Even worse, yeah, yeah. We go to the 1092 birthday. He is the third son of four. King Henry the First sister Adela. So there is a family relationship there. He's a favourite of Henry I first. He grows up in the English court because his mum sent him there thinking it'd be more, you know, sophisticated than they learn. So he's well known by the nobles, which puts him in good stead when he does nip across the channel.

He's been hanging out with the lads and the men's clubs. Yeah, I get you. And he's married to... Matilda? Yes, he is. Yeah, he's. Heiress to the county of Boulogne. So Stephen is the king.

Matilda gives birth, survives the childbirth, thankfully. To William, yeah. And now she looks across the channel and goes, hang on a second, that's my throne. That's mine. Should have been me. Yeah, okay. So what does she do next?

She sails over with an army and says, that is my bloody throne. I know. Look out of my throat, Stephen. Yeah, I think it's time now for the anarchy. So would we call this a civil war? Yeah, I think 12th century civil war, the lesser known of the civil war.

Sure. Perhaps. But Matilda. you know, she spent that time in Normandy. They focus on taking that first. I think that's the way forward. But as we say, we get to around 1138, 1139. She's like, hang on.

Now I need to focus on taking England. Several of the English barons, including her half-brother, Robert of Gloucester, who comes in very handy, renounce their oaths to Stephen. Matilda's uncle, David, the King of Scotland, also caused his problem up in the north. 1139, she does apply for the Pope

to try and support her claim, but he's not interested. He doesn't reply to her letters. How do you apply to the phone? You just fill in a form. It really sounded like she applied for a job. Yeah. Yep.

But no luck there. But she decides to sail for England anyway in September 11, 39. And fortunately, her stepmother, Adeliser, who's at Arundel. Says, oh, come here. I'll support you. Arundall's a very lovely town. Very nice day out. Got a great castle.

Lovely castle. Lovely antique shops. Good cafes. So, Gabby, talk us through the war then. This brutal anarchy. This civil war. So once Matilda's got to Arundall, enjoyed the castle, had a few scenic walks, makes her way over to Bristol, off to the West Country, because her half-brother Robert Duke of Gloss is there. So he's got people on side for her, so they decide to start battling.

This civil war actually doesn't get off to a great start. They hit a stalemate pretty quickly because the barons are interested in bits of land as opposed to actually who's on the throne. You know what, Barons always are interested in land. People should just come with land and then give that to the barons if they want to get the throne. There are very few positive barons in history. This kind of carries on for about two years. In February 1141, have a breakthrough. Battle of Lincoln.

Stephen is captured. So Matilda has Stephen in chains and he's imprisoned at Bristol Castle. Wow. And she now is the queen, yes? Yes? No, the barons don't back it, right? Come on. Nope.

No. Absolutely. She's not there yet. So we have this little period where she is arranging to get herself crowned in London, in Westminster, of course. So she starts minting some coins, has Lady of the English stamped on the coins as like a precursor to becoming queen. And she proceeds to London to be crowned, but the Londoners reject her. They will not let her in. But Carriad told me at the beginning of the episode that she was very popular. Yeah, I've obviously remembered that completely incorrectly, that we're.

When I'm sure I remember him saying that she was a, like, that Stephen was not as popular and the people cheered Matilda. Queen Matilda, Stephen's wife, it's popular. Oh, maybe I admit it the other Matilda. That may be where Atcroids coming from. It's very easy to mix in Matilda's. Empress Matilda's also made a few poor political choices so she won't give London a special privileges that they've always held. She's trying to get money from them. They're just like, you're not coming in love.

Don't annoy the Londoners, mate. Don't annoy them. Yeah. So, you know, we've seen that she's had all this political skill, but it just doesn't pay off here. It must have been a humiliating moment, right? The Rightful Queen, who has won militarily, who has captured the...

Yeah, yeah, she should by right. She should by right. She should by right. And yeah, the people of London and like, get out, love, you know, you're not around it. And she just goes home? Yeah, what happens? No, so she flees back to the West Country and, you know, where she's safe. and, you know, tries to negotiate with Matilda.

So we've got the Battle of the Matildas now going on because Stephen's still imprisoned. So we have the Siege of Winchester in September 1141. But Empress Matilda doesn't come out of this very well either. She's forced to flee when Queen Matilda rocks up with her armies yet again. Wow, this Queen Matilda's like hot on her heels, isn't she? Like powerful woman and using her political strength. Oh, my dear.

And unfortunately, Winchester goes very bad. badly because Robert of Gloucester, Empress Matilda's half-brother has captured. Oh no. So now we have the negotiations of Matilda being like, give me back Stephen, Matilda, give me back, Robert, Stephen, Robert, and... Get out my pub! This is like Pat and Peggy all over again. Very equally matched, different sides of the square, but basically the same person.

She's swapped Stephen for Jacob Gloucester. Yeah. And Stephen is released and then goes back on the square. the throne. Yeah, straight back on that throne. And then we get an even bigger disaster, Gabby. The Battle of Oxford. Yep. So this is 1142. So Empress Matilda is again

forced to flee. And this is really her last rallying cry in terms of what she gets up to at this moment in time. Stephen besieges the city. They are sieged for three months and eventually she is forced to escape. She escapes wearing a white cloak

to disguise her amongst the snow as she sneaks out the Oh, that's Game of Thrones. It's kind of camouflage, right? It's sort of sneaky, sneaky. So she sneaks out the back door, hides in the snow, rides the safety. So she's not captured. Does she go back to Europe at this point?

I mean, in the movie, escaping in the snow, that would be the beginning of the comeback, right? Yeah. But in terms of the history books. Yeah, unfortunately not. So she does try to rally a couple more times, but she's almost, she's lost her. Yeah, she lost it, babes. It's gone. The moment's gone.

Yeah. And I mean, Stephen's had him. to have crowned for a second time to reassert his authority, rarely salt in the wound. Not King once, but King at all. Wise, Londoners. Let me hear you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. If you remember her

older son, Henry. Yep. So he does try and invade in 1147 on... In the name of his mum? In the name of his mum. Oh, it's so adorable. But he does this without any money, without Matilda's knowledge. That's classic teenager, isn't it? Yeah, you know. And then he comes back two years later, 1149.

And that's a failure as well because the attack pretty much disintegrates as soon as he lands. He doesn't have the best of luck. Matilda transferred her claim over to him and he does these little hurries over the next few years, but it doesn't really get anywhere until he's going to say, because he becomes Henry II at some point and he's the start of the Plantagenet's right? So yeah, when does he? So Stephen and Henry make the Treaty of Winchester agree that Henry will give advice to Stephen whilst he's still ruling.

Okay. On how to rule. Henry is named as air. This is mad because her air then becomes king anyway. So Stephen Basie just wanted, he just wanted the throne for a bit. Yeah. He wasn't bothered about his dynasty. Yeah, his dynasty starting.

It was just like, no, I just want to go at this job. Yeah. But then I'm going to give it to your son. He just didn't want Matilda to have it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's interesting, isn't it? Right.

Is there saying to that, is Carriad right? It just doesn't want a woman on the throne. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is. is potentially part of it in terms of, you know, Matilda goes over what you expect to see of women at this point. We don't expect to see a woman ruling in England.

But there is the slight issue as well. They don't like Geoffrey of Vondue. They don't like Matilda's husband. They're worried about foreign influence. If she becomes queen, like, what's his role going to be? Is she going to, like, ruling her own right? Or is the... They're trying to bypass that.

Yeah. But then they install his son, who must be... Yeah, of the same lineage. Of the bad dad. But she's still up. A man, Carriads. And that's much more acceptable to them. King Stephen died in October 1154.

Henry II becomes the king, so Matilda's son on the throne. And Matilda gets to be what, Queen Mum? Yeah, I mean, she is a bit of a... Is she sort of the Chris Jenner here? Is she kind of a mumminger? I mean, she's got three sons to try and keep in line a bit. And yeah, absolutely, she rises from the ashes and is really involved. So she looks after Normandy pretty much.

all time. We've got letters from the time that showed that she was very politically astute. She does get involved. She's very well respected. So, for example, Henry decides to try and invade Ireland in 1155 and Matilda warns him against it. And then that doesn't go ahead at that moment in time. He does try later after she's died. But she still brings all her experience to the fort. So Matilda dies in 1167, and she's about 65. Well, she does well. And she dies in Rouen, in Normandy. Yeah. And she's very at the Abbey of Ben. which is somewhere where she spent a lot of her life.

It was where she gave birth to her second son and it's a place that's really important to her. So Normandy is her life, really. But I think she's content with that because it's somewhere she still has power. Yeah, she does end up in power. Yeah. But not as high as maybe she would hope for.

Yeah, and Geoffrey's long dead by this point as well. Her husband, Geoffrey, so she kind of just go down. And Henry the second is the first Plantagenet King. Is that right? So she starts a dynasty. She does. Yes, yeah. And a really good dynasty

in terms of the name of the ignition. Yeah, yeah, the antagonists. All the way up to Rich the third, yeah. The nuance window! Okay, time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Carriad and I quietly try to remember all the five Matildas and three Henrys

that we've mentioned, while Dr. Gabby takes to the battlefield to tell us something that we need to know about Empress Matilda and medieval queenship. So my stopwatch is ready. You've got two minutes. Take it away, Dr Gabby. So I want to talk about medieval queens as co-rulers because I think there's this idea that medieval queens are just there to give birth to children and that's it. And maybe they're quite pious. Maybe they focus on what we call soft power. But actually, these are women who can rule in their own right, so to speak. They are very powerful. They can share power with the king. And Matilda does this really well with Jeffrey in terms of sharing power.

sharing her rights. They work very well together as a couple. But going beyond Matilda, we see this again fantastically with Eleanor of Aquitaine. She brings her power from Aquitaine as Duchess and shares that with Henry. So I think we need to move beyond the idea that it's always a king that's giving and sharing power. It's women who can actually bring a lot to the marriage, bring a lot to rulership through a different set of skills, whether that's diplomacy and soft skills, patronage, mediating with the bishops when they're being a bit naughty. Women are very capable of exercising power. They do do it on a regular basis and it's not just agency.

It's not just something that's soft. Directly with Matilda, we don't see her leading an army at the front of it, but we do see women leading armies in this period as well. So I think there's much more to be said about queens being able to actually directly rule. Not all power is vested in one man. It's shared with his mum, in the case of Matilda. It's shared with his wife. It can be shared with his daughters or, you know,

sometimes with other men. But, you know, with governors and regents and so forth as well. So I think there's a lot more to medieval queens than maybe we think they're not just there to give birth to children. They do quite well. Thank you so much, Gabby. Fascinating, Carriads. Yeah, amazing.

Obviously, amazing. Listener, if you want more medieval queens with Dr. Gabby, you can check out our episode on Eleanor Akitaine, featuring Carriads. ostentatious castmate, Rachel Paris. For more Carriad, obviously we've got lots of episodes with you, but Agrippina and the Younger and Mary Wollstonecraft are two of my faves. And for more argumentative English royals, there's always our episode,

on the causes of the British Civil Wars, which we've now discovered is the second English Civil War, but that's very confusing, so we'll just pretend let's call it the anarchy as a whole other thing. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We had the fantastic Dr Gabrielle's story. Thank you, Gabby. Thank you, Greg and Carriad. Well done for not throwing any chairs around.

It was a very placid anarchy today, wasn't it? We were very calm. And in Comedy Corner, we had the ever-brillant Carriad Lloyd. Thank you, Carriad. O'A monseigne, as they would have said. I mean, now's not the time to point out that 12th century French was actually a bit more Viking-sounding. It was much more harsh Norman.

Yeah, the Caesar Cs in Norman French. It's cannaefe, is sharp? Yes. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time, as we consider both sides of another historical argument and then settle it with a compromise. But for now, I'm off to lock up my cousin before he tries to snatch the podcast from me. It's mine, all mine.

Bye! Your debt to me is at BBC Studios' audio production for BBC Radio 4. Strong message here from BBC Radio 4. I'm Amanda Unucci. And I'm Helen Lewis. A comedy writer and a journalist teaming up like a pale. of unkempt and unlikely superheroes. Our mission is to decipher political language.

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