You're Dead to Me - Frederick Douglass (Radio Edit)

Episode Date: September 27, 2024

Greg Jenner is joined by special guests Prof Emily Bernard and comedian Toussaint Douglass in 19th-Century America to meet Frederick Douglass. Born into an enslaved family, Frederick fought against all odds to secure his freedom and went on to become a famed abolitionist, orator, writer and statesman.This is a radio edit of the original podcast episode. For the full-length version, please look further back in the feed.Research by Anna-Nadine Pike and Jess White Written by Emma Nagouse, Anna-Nadine Pike and Greg Jenner Produced by Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner Assistant Producer: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow Project Management: Isla Matthews Audio Producer: Steve Hankey

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Spend less time on ads and more time with BBC podcasts. BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are journeying back to 19th century America to learn all about a man who escaped enslavement to become a visionary abolitionist, orator and writer Frederick Douglass. And to help me do that I am joined by two very special guests. In History Corner she's a cultural historian and literary scholar at the University of Vermont where she is the Julian Lindsay Green and Gold Professor of English and an Andrew Carnegie Fellow. You may have read her wonderful book Black is the Body, stories from my grandmother's time, my mother's time and mine and you'll

certainly remember her from our episode on the Harlem Renaissance, one of my faves, it's Professor Emily Bernard. Welcome back Emily. Hello. And in Comedy Corner, he's an award winning rising star of stand up and comedy writing. You may have seen him on BBC3's Stand Up for Live Comedy or in loads of Dave TV shows like Outsiders, Hypothetical, Question Team or Late Night Mash. It's Tucson Douglas. Welcome Tucson. Hi, thanks so much for having me. First time on the show. Where do you stand on history? Are you a fan? I'm actually a massive history fan. Yeah, it was probably my favourite subject in school. I actually studied at uni politics and American history. So I don't know

if I'm setting myself up for failure here in terms of how much I remember. I need to really caveat that I don't remember a lot, but my favourite teacher at school said, if you don't learn from the past, how can we build for the future? And I thought that was an absolute line. Love it. All right. And you are a Douglas yourself. In fact, Douglas with a double S at the end. Indeed. Yes. Are you familiar with Frederick Douglas? I mean hey, maybe we're related, who knows, you know what I mean?

He's in my top three Douglas's that I'd like to be related to. Tim, Kirk Douglas, who doesn't like Spartacus, and then Michael Douglas. There's not that many Douglas's to be fair, but it's those three. So what do you know? The Three of pop culture projects. We don't have a movie about him or a biopic or a big drama series, which is surprising because he is a huge giant of the 19th century. So what do we need to know about him? Let's find out, shall we? So we start as ever with childhood and Emily, really our story starts as a horror movie because Frederick Douglass is born enslaved. So where is he born and when and what is his origin story?

He was born in Talbot County, Maryland. His birth details are unclear, but a ledger kept by his first enslaver listed him as being born in Febby 1818. Douglas's mother Harriet was enslaved, so Douglas was born enslaved too. Actually, Douglas wasn't his name yet. He was Frederick Augustus Washington Bailey, Bailey being Harriet's maiden name. His biological father was possibly his first slave master, Aaron Anthony. Frederick was a fourth of six children. Sadly, Frederick was separated from his mother as an infant and lived with his siblings and maternal grandmother, Betty Bailey. He was only with her for a short amount of time before being sent to the White House plantation. We also know from his autobiography, his mother died when he was seven.

There is something quite interesting because later in life, he didn't know when his birthday was. Frederick Douglass chose his birthday. He knew he was born in February. Can you guess which day of February he decided would be his birthday? He seems like, you know, maybe he was a bit of a romantic guy, Greg. Maybe he was picking the most famous day in February, perhaps the 14th of February, Valentine's Day. That could be it. I don't know. You're absolutely spot on.

No, are you kidding me? That's exactly what he does. Unbelievable. I must be related to Frederick Douglass. There's an affinity there. It's just, you know, I could feel it. Feeling the connection. Yeah, it's a rather beautiful story.

His mother, Harriet, had apparently called him her little Valentine. So he did it in tribute to her. And we have three autobiographies written by him, Emily. So we know a lot about Frederick Douglass from his own perspective. What else do we know about his youth from his books? In an early traumatic experience which forever haunted him, he witnessed his aunt Hester being whipped by his first slave master for visiting a lover. This was when he first realized how cruel slave owners could be. In 1826,

age only six, Frederick was sent to Baltimore to serve as an enslaved playmate for Sophia and Huwalt's toddler. This became a formative time because Sophia all taught Frederick to read. It's a really weird story that he's enslaved and yet he's been sent off to go and entertain a child. He is a child, he's six. But Sophia teaches him to read and Emily, Sophia is a complicated character in the way that Douglas remembers her later on, because there is a sort of maternal warmth early on and then it changes. Sophia Ault radically changes throughout the narrative. In Douglas's autobiography, Douglas remembers her later on because there is a sort of maternal warmth early on and then it changes. Sophia Auld radically changes throughout the narrative. In Douglas's autobiography, she

begins as a good-hearted woman who has never owned a slave before and instinctively teaches this clever little boy as a mother would. But her husband Hugh finds out and yells at her saying it's dangerous to educate slaves. Soon she learns cruelty like all the others. Douglas never misses a chance in his writing to point out how absolute power corrupts absolutely, how the institution of slavery degrades white people as well as black people. And how does he develop that writing skill? He constantly practices wherever he can. He even tricked little white boys into teaching him to read by bribing them with bread. Age 13, Frederick is fully

literate. He also shares his knowledge with others, teaching basic literacy to his fellow enslaved people. I think it's an incredible demonstration of ingenuity there in itself. He's paying for reading this with bread, with bread. And also just self-restraint. Like, if there's bread in front of me, I can't not eat it. You know what I mean? There's no way I'm giving it to anyone else. Especially if there's butter there. Game over. I'd be a literate.

I just wouldn't be able to read. So I'm blown away by just how kind of impressive at that stage the young Frederick Douglass is. But in not remotely surprising news in 1838, when he's about 20 years old, Frederick decides he's going to escape. And how is he going to do this, Emily? He was determined to join other escapees, including his aunt Jenny and uncle Noah in the Free North. Having failed one escape already, he was aided by Anna Murray, a free black woman who worked as a maid. She paid for his journey. He traveled by railroad disguised

as a sailor with papers. And although he was nearly caught, he managed to get from Baltimore to Pennsylvania. Anna and Frederick got married in September 1838, initially taking the new surname Johnson, with an opting for Douglas upon moving to New Bedford, Massachusetts in 1841. It was common to change names to avoid recapture. He chose Douglas after the character James Douglas in Walter Scott's narrative poem,

The Lady of the Lake, who is basing his new identity on Scottish romantic history. Wow. He changes his name to Johnson initially. So he's Frederick Johnson for a bit. And then he's like, no, that's not quite right. I'm going to be Frederick Douglas. I suppose there is a tiny sliver of beauty in the fact that he gets to choose his name. And the thing that chooses is a it comes from passion comes from a love of literature he he turns to Scottish poetry Scottish you know storytelling. In my head I'm seeing a thriller there I'm seeing a kind of Leonardo DiCaprio catch me if you can kind of scenario where he's kind of changing his identity do you know what I mean he's turns into a sailor I mean that's I wouldn't have any idea how to blag being a sailor do you know I mean I'd get any idea how to blag being a sailor.

I'd get found out straight away. I'd be like, people like, go to starboard. And I'd be like, starboard? Where the hell is starboard? I'd be like, yeah, don't worry, I'm at the helm. No, you're not meant to be at the helm. I'd have no idea. But he blagged it exceptionally. So by 1841, Frederick Douglass, as he's now called, he's working as a labourer. And you say you wouldn't be able to mug it as a sailor. Actually, he doesn't quite a lot of work on the wharves and the shipping, he sort of knows some of the lingo. He's working on the wharves,

but he's also becoming an abolitionist. He's making speeches, he becomes a preacher. He's hired by quite a famous white abolitionist called William Lloyd Garrison, who basically says, hey, you're really good at talking, come lecture talk with me. But he's also, he's going to start writing, Emily. Yes, in 1845, he published his first autobiography, Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass and American Slave. It deals with his early experiences. Part of his motivation is that his gifts for preaching and speech making were so remarkable that some audiences refused to believe he'd escaped slavery. They said he spoke too well and must be playing the role.

So the narrative was about proving his backstory. It's having to come up against that kind of condescension, right? That almost you're too brilliant. As a black person, you can't be that intelligent and that articulate. And the fact that he then went to the lengths of writing a book to disprove it, I mean, again, I wouldn't go to that length. And what's interesting is that he's not just telling it in America. In 1845, he's going to go somewhere else. Do you know where he goes, Toussaint? I think I do know this one, yeah. He actually comes to good old Blighty. He does. He hops on a ship and he comes to a tour of the UK and Ireland. Starts in Ireland,

in fact. What's the plan here, Emily? Is he, why is he leaving America? Is it a safety thing? Douglas fears being recaptured of his days in America as when he leaves in August 1845. William Lloyd Garrison sends him to Britain and Ireland, where Douglas shocks crowds with its personal testimony, but also with much broader moral critiques of slavery. He starts in Dublin, Ireland, then travels through Scotland, home of Walter Scott, who inspired his name, and finally onto England. And yeah, when we say narrative here, we mean Douglas's first autobiography called The Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass. So he's here for two years doing Ireland, Scotland,

England. I don't know if he does Wales, I'm not sure, but he actually quite likes the UK and Ireland. He feels he's got more freedom here and more respect. Obviously still racism in the UK at this time, but I guess better than the USA at that point. And his debut gig in August 1845 is in Dublin, Tucson. Do you know what subject he chooses to speak on? Ooh, that's a good question, Greg. I mean... He's been booked by the American Anti-Slavery League. So yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. I mean, it'd be wild if I didn't say slavery, right? I'm going to say slavery.

It's a very sensible guess, but no, he starts with temperance. Okay. I mean, Emily, why is this renowned speaker, why is he speaking about temperance? Douglas was a long-term advocate for women's suffrage, and temperance was associated with reducing domestic violence. He also spoke out against poverty in Ireland, and in Bristol, he addressed political slavery in England, particularly speaking on practices in the army and navy and on class inequality. Anti-slavery remained closest to his heart, but there was a limit to how much support he gave to other movements.

Having been friends, he and William Lloyd Garrison fell out over differences in their abolitionist politics. He also found allies among the Chartists, a political reform movement in England, but it wasn't easy when they kept equating black slavery in America with the white slaves of an underpaid British workforce. Even worse, later in 1868, the women's suffrage movement in America started using racist rhetoric

and even accepted funding from white supremacist groups. So Douglas withdrew his support. Yeah, I bet he did. So he's got huge intellectual heft. He's clearly a very talented orator. His tour is attracting huge crowds, Toussaint. A lecture he gives in Essex in 1847 is so hectic people are huddled outside the venue trying to listen in through the window, which I'm assuming is standard for one of your gigs on a Tuesday night, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, obviously Greg, they're queuing round the block to see me.

But no, I mean, can you blame the people of Essex at that time? I mean, this guy is a rock star, right? This guy is coming from America. He's got the chat. He's a celebrity. Do you know what I mean? And also, can we just appreciate how good looking he is? Like, I know this is a predominantly audio medium, but if you're listening to this right

now, please take a brief moment to Google Frederick Douglass and you won't be disappointed. This guy is a hunk. All right. Okay. This guy is a hunk, all right? Okay, this guy is a 19th century beefcake and he was one of the most kind of photographed kind of people of the 19th century, right? You're spot on. He's the most photographed man of the, in fact, most photographed American

of the entire 19th century. More than Lincoln, Custer, all of you are sort of most famous celebs. 160 photos he poses for. One thing you might not know so much about Frederick Douglass, this has been an argument made by the scholar Granville Ganter, is Frederick Douglass was funny. Right, okay.

Like really funny, like a master of comedy. I mean, Emily, what kind of comedy is he doing? I mean, comedy, I'm using comedy carefully, but like he's using humor, right, in his lectures. Interestingly, Douglass uses shock humor. He did this through imitation and sending up stereotypes, which entertained white audiences while also forcing them to confront their own internalized prejudices. Douglas strongly disliked racist minstrel humor, but exploited

audience familiarity with it when performing his own subverted versions. I mean, trying comedy in any situation is fraught with peril. Are the audience going to like it? You know, is it that kind of thing? But to do it in those situations where he's trying to convey, obviously, a really important message as well, and realizing that humor can play a part in that. So I think it's shrewd of him, I think, to use comedy in that respect

and stuff like that, for sure. And obviously, he's understanding the comedic kind of tropes and trends of the day and he's using it and he's subverting those as well which shows a real kind of sophisticated understanding of comedy as well. Chip off the old block I am clearly. So I mean the trip to the UK and Ireland obviously highly successful professionally built his brand as you say Toussaint he's becoming a celebrity. But it's also life-changing for him, Emily, isn't it? Because actually, some of the friends he meets are going to do something for him. He hasn't asked them to do it, but they're going to do it anyway. In 1847, while staying at Newcastle, Douglas befriended the Quaker sisters-in-law, Anna

and Ellen Richardson, and they negotiated to legally buy his freedom from Hugh Auld. They did this without involving Douglas, and some abolitionists objected, arguing that paying for freedom reinforced the legitimacy of the system and damaged Douglas's reputation as a campaigner. But for Douglas, it meant he could tour America without legally being recaptured. He was grateful to his friends and frustrated by the abolitionist politics, but he was free at last. Yeah, it's amazing. So these two women decided to buy his freedom so he can return home to his wife and kids. And when I say kids, we've got Anna the wife, but how many children do they have? Five. Anna had been single-handedly looking after their five kids, all on a lowly maid's wage for two

years. She often gets under-emphasized in Frederick five kids, all on a lowly maid's wage for two years. She often gets under-emphasized in Frederick's story, but she first helped him escape from Maryland and then is an absolute rock when he's in the UK. At this point, they moved to Rochester, New York. Using money donated by his British supporters, Douglas also founds his own newspaper called The North Star. In 1851, this newspaper is renamed Frederick Douglas's paper. I think the ego is getting to him at that point, isn't it? My name's not on this enough, actually. I need to just make it clear to everyone this is my paper.

And I'm assuming, Tucson, you have never launched your own newspaper, but if you did, full of cutting edge political insight? Oh, yeah, 100%. It'd be proper broadsheet stuff. Dick, you're talking 400 pages, you wouldn't be able to get through it in a Sunday, do you know what I mean? Really intellectual. No way would it be a tabloid at all. And 1852 is a key year as well because it's also when he gives an incredibly famous speech. What's the speech called, Emily? And do you want to give us a little bit please? It's called The Meaning of July 4th for the Negro. What to the American slave is your

Fourth of July? I answer, a day that reveals to him more than all other days in the year the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is a constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham, your boasted liberty, an unholy license, your national greatness, swelling vanity, your sound of rejoicing are empty and heartless, your denunciation of tyrants, brass-fronted impudence, your shout of liberty and equality, hollow mockery, your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings

with all your religious parade and solemnity are to him mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety and hypocrisy. A thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States at this very hour." I mean, Toussaint, he's not pulling his punches, is he? I mean, no. At least so, is he, what he's saying. I think it's very clear the takeaway is, you know,

you're all hypocrites. But I think, yeah, I mean, for me, you know, he's like kind of all the greatest orators, you know, like he's able to kind of conjure up a very incredibly persuasive reimagining of like an existing kind of conjure up a very incredibly persuasive reimagining of like an existing kind of foundational text. So I think in this case, it was like the Constitution, right, where he's actually kind of saying, actually the Constitution, it can be like an anti-slavery text. It can be a platform for actually kind of getting rid of slavery and stuff like that, and kind of using it against them in that respect. Absolutely. We then get another autobiography, My Bondage and My

Freedom in 1855. So he's returning to his life story for a second time. And then he visits Britain again. And then in 1861, we get the American Civil War, which is an enormous moment. And this is where his voice has real political influence because he, well, he has this famous relationship with Lincoln. So how does this come about, Emily?

Douglas began recruiting black soldiers to fight for the North, including two new regiments. But the men weren't getting equal pay to whites. And when they were captured in battle, they were tortured, murdered, or enslaved by the Confederates. Douglas was enraged and traveled to Washington, DC to personally petition President Lincoln. To his credit, Lincoln immediately welcomed the men. They didn't agree on everything,

but Lincoln was convinced by Douglas's passionate oratory to issue his famed Emancipation Proclamation of January 1863, which freed all enslaved people in slave-holding states, though not border states, and saw 200,000 Black men joining up to fight, including two Frederick sons. The Lincoln and Douglas friendship wasn't straightforward. Douglas publicly criticized Lincoln's hesitancy in abolishing slavery, but there was mutual respect. When Lincoln was assassinated in 1865, his wife Mary Todd Lincoln actually sent his favorite walking stick to Douglas as testament to their connection. I mean, it's just fascinating, right? Isn't it? You know, this is someone who has come from slavery as a kid, taught himself kind of how to read, and then is now hobnobbing it with presidents,

and is seen by this person as an equivalent, as a political kind of equal, in many respects. He's respected by this person, which I think tells you a lot about who he was, I think his stature at that time, what he had achieved. And I think Lincoln almost kind of referred to him as a friend. Yeah, I think there is definitely warmth there. Yeah. I mean, the 1860s is where the political idealism is, you know, the war is horrible, but there is an idealism in Reconstruction. That fails. The 1870s, we have in the South, the Jim Crow laws, you've got lynchings, the Ku Klux Klan. It's a horrible, horrible time to be a free

black person. And Douglas is fighting against the political tide. But he's also presumably in danger, Emily. He's a senior black leader and people are being murdered. So is he in danger? Yes. He's not in the South, but he faces big challenges. In 1872, his house burned down. Nobody was hurt, but arson was a possibility. So he moved his family to Washington, D.C., became federal marshal of the District of Columbia, meaning he was the first ever African American to be chosen for a role by the president

and approved by the Senate. And by 1881, he was on to his third autobiography, Life and Times of Frederick Douglass. I mean, Emily, I have to ask, why does he keep writing autobiographies? You know, is he sort of the George Lucas of his time? He can't help but tinker with his, you know, he has to keep coming back to the same thing over and over. Or is he, is he growing and changing as a writer? Douglass changes his style and presentation with each autobiography, appealing to new audiences

or aligning with new causes. The 1845 narrative fits into the genre of slave narratives, often published and prefaced by white abolitionists. Garrison just wanted Douglass to describe his experience of slavery, not denounce it. But this also means that the narrative puts the reader in the same position as Frederick as a young child, witnessing the horrors of slavery without a framework for interpreting them. Then in My Bondage and My Freedom, 1855, Douglas presents himself more definitively as a Black leader shaped by the Black women role models who raised him, his mother and grandmother. But he also depicts himself through tropes of the American self-made man, with ambition, self-improvement, and hard work being key. By 1881, The Life and

Times presents Douglas as an intellectual, applying analytical thinking, so each book shows a different aspect. Yeah. So he is using his life as a frame of reference, but he's doing something different each time. So I guess I'm not going to criticize Frederick Douglas, it's fine. I'm just sort of, you know, the publisher are like, another life story. Okay. And we've already talked about this Tucson, but you know, his photography, right? He's, you say he's hot when he's young. He's, he's hot at every age. Oh, for sure. I mean, yeah, the guy, the guy's got it. You can, and he obviously liked taking

photographs. You know what I mean? You don't take 160 photographs if you don't like it. You know what I mean? I imagine if he was around today, he'd be the guy taking selfies at a protest. But Emily, there's a reason for his use of photography. He's not just a political orator. He's a philosopher of art. He's interested in the camera, what it can do for black people for emancipation, isn't he? Black people had often been depicted with racist, exaggerated facial features. So Douglas loved how the camera captured the truth. It's important too to reflect on the dearth of positive public images of black folk. You were in the paper either because you were

lynched or you were being comedically degraded. Frederick Douglass issued 160 different photographs of himself throughout his life, becoming the most photographed American of the entire 19th century. And he's spending all this time away on tour, Emily. I mean, we've heard about two years in the UK and Ireland, but like he's always touring throughout these decades of life. Does he at least enjoy a cosy retirement with his wife Anna and the kids? You know, does he ever put his feet up? Sadly, Anna Douglas died in 1882. Frederick was very depressed for a while, but he remarried in 1884 in his mid-60s to Helen Pitts, a younger white woman whose family he knew. She was a suffrage campaigner. Her parents were abolitionists, but did not approve of the marriage. It caused

a national backlash. Some black people were angry he married a white woman. Many white people were disgusted. And Douglas' kids were not keen on seeing their mother replaced. Douglas, however, said of his second wife, it proves I'm impartial. My first wife was the color of my mother and the second, the color of my father." And Helen Pitts was also very important in preserving his image later on when he died. But yeah, Anna Murray, 40 years of marriage, I think, and that's very sad. Does Helen, you know, the second wife, does she get Frederick Douglass to slow down? I'm guessing the answer is no, Emily. No rest. Between 1886 and 1887, Helen and Frederick traveled throughout Europe, visiting

England, France, Italy, Egypt, and Greece. He was also appointed as Minister in Consul to the Republic of Haiti in 1889. It was a prestigious job, but such was the ongoing racism. He was refused first-class travel and had a naval captain refuse to sit with him at dinner. In 1895, he dies at the age of 77, having recently returned from a woman's rights convention. Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's sad, isn't it? I think he did so much, but it just shows that even with all that, there is still that ongoing everyday racism, you know, which is a thing now, but was still, you know, was a thing then as well that you had to contend with.

And the fact that he died, you know, returning from a woman's suffrage conference, you know, he was still putting in the work in his 70s for other people's fights. So, you know, this is a guy who just fights the good fight wherever he finds it. It's extraordinary. The nuance window! That's the end of our narrative of the life of Frederick Douglass, which means it's time for the nuance window. This is where Toussaint and I sit back for two minutes and let Professor Emily give her own speech for two minutes. So when you're ready, can we have the nuance window, please? It feels a bit strange to go on about the beauty of Frederick Douglass' writing when

he used his literary talents always in the grave service of liberation, not just for black people, but for all people. But Douglass, statesman, prophet, political theorist, orator, was primarily an artist. Historian and Douglas biographer David Blight calls him a prose poet on the meaning of America. Whether he was extolling the promise of the Union or criticizing the United States for its hypocrisies and failed promises, he did so with the eye and ear of an artist. He understood how language worked. Slavery itself amounted ultimately to a collection of words. Douglas used a language that denied him by law, not only to imagine freedom for his people, but to test out its cadence. He found meaning in the rhythms of the King James Bible and saw in particular the Hebrew prophets as companions. Douglas was fearless and incisive

in his critiques of Christianity. Much of his narrative is devoted to demonstrating carefully how true Christianity is incompatible with the practice of slavery. Over his lifetime, his views on the faith of his childhood evolved, but the language that captured him as a child, that mesmerized him, never failed to provide him with the stories, wisdom, and language he needed to make his ageless critique of the country of his birth. As much as he was admired as an orator, Douglass was a writer first. He was not an extemporaneous speaker. Like any writer, he did his thinking on the page.

He was himself defined and liberated by the written word. And that's why he returned again and again to the page, to deliver the same freedom he found there to others. What Douglass left us in his writings was not only indisputable evidence that Black people were human, capable of reason, capable of art. Not only did he leave us with his philosophies, political theories, rhetorical masterpieces, complex arguments, and treatises,

he left us with the subtle, nuanced portrait of the interior life of the enslaved person. He did this with the simplest and most accurate of metaphors that connected his own story to the most timeless of stories. He achieved this greatness the only way possible by practicing. Wow, that's beautiful. Thank you so much, Emily. All that's left for me to say is a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we had the brilliant Professor Emily Bernard from the University of Vermont. Thank you, Emily. Oh, thank you. I had a great time. And in Comedy Corner, we have the terrific Toussaint Douglas. Thank you, Emily. Oh, thank you. And in Comedy Corner, we have the terrific Toussaint Douglas. Thank you, Toussaint.

Thanks so much for having me. This has been fascinating and also just really fun and entertaining as well. Yeah. So thanks a lot. Really enjoyed it. Thank you for your knowledge. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we ascend the lectern of rhetorical excellence with two more brilliant guests. But for now, I'm off to go and shave my beard into a glorious goatee. Bye! I'm Helena Bonham Carter and for BBC Radio 4 this is History's Secret Heroes, a new

series of rarely heard tales from World War II. None of them knew that she'd lived this double life. They had no idea that she was Britain's top female code breaker. We'll hear of daring risk takers. What she was offering to do was to ski in over the high Carpathian mountains in minus 40 degrees. Of course it was dangerous, but danger was his friend. Helping people was his blood. Subscribe to History's Secret Heroes on BBC Sounds. If you're hearing this, you're probably already listening to BBC's award-winning history podcasts. But did you know that you can listen to them without ads?

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