You're Dead to Me - Grainne O’Malley

Episode Date: January 29, 2021

Greg Jenner is joined by historian Dr Gillian Kenny and comedian Catherine Bohart in 16th century Ireland to look at the life of pirate queen Grainne O’Malley. Against the backdrop of the changing legal landscape of Ireland as it faced brutality from incoming English administrators, we look at the difficult decisions Grainne was forced to make to ensure her family's survival. From bold changes to her appearance as a teenager to ensure her place on her fathers ship, to aggressive actions on a castle that refused to serve her food. Grainne O’Malley was not a woman to be messed with. This strength and defiance would lead to an unlikely understanding with Queen Elizabeth I. Produced by Cornelius Mendez Script by Greg Jenner and Emma Nagouse Research by Jessica WhiteThe Athletic production for BBC Radio 4

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, a history podcast for everyone. For people who don't like history, people who do like history, and people who forgot to learn any at school. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster, and I'm the chief nerd on the BBC comedy show Horrible Histories.

You may have also listened to my children's podcast, Homeschool History. But this podcast is a bit different. In this show, we mash together historical high flyers and class clowns until your brain is positively abuzz with book learning. And today we are tackling piracy with a difference. No salty sea dogs or bottles of rum. No, we're off to 16th century Ireland to run amok with the infamous pirate queen, Gráinne O'Malley. And to help me untangle fact from fiction, I'm joined by two very special guests. In History Corner, she's a research fellow at Trinity College Dublin, where she researches the lives of women and outsiders in late medieval Europe. She's starting work on the first ever scholarly biography of Gráinne, and her Twitter bio describes her as a raging medievalist.

Is there any other kind? I'm sure she's lovely. It's Dr Gillian Kenny. Hello, Greg. All good here, thank you. Raging, as usual. Very smiley where you rage, very smiley. Yes, it's a good rage. I mean, I was going to say ahoy there, but then I thought, you know what?

It's the wrong kind of pirate. You know, we're 16th century piracy. Ahoy isn't appropriate. No, and also it would have been in Irish. So you'd have to have an asguelga, because what we're talking about are profoundly very Irish pirates in the 16th century. Let's have that again. Sorry, asguelga. Sorry, asguelga. But by the end of this, Greg, you will have mastered probably most of it. That feels optimistic, Gillian. Yeah,

no worries. We'll teach her. If you say Gráinne, you can do all the rest of it. It's not a problem. And in Comedy Corner, she's an award-winning comedian, classically trained actor and writer. You'll have seen her on The Mash Report, 8 Out of 10 Cats, Mock the Week. You'll have heard her on the BBC Sounds podcast, You'll Do. And of course, she's the internationally renowned expert on Joan of Arc and 18th century democracy, because she appeared on those episodes of You're Dead to Me. A big welcome back to the wonderful Catherine Bohart. Hi, Catherine, how are you? Hello, good. How are you? I'm so glad you said I was an expert. I think it's really important. What did I get? Eight out of 10 on the quiz? Eight and a half, I think. Thank you. Yeah, who needs a PhD? I got this. I'm very excited to be here. I can say Oscavelga,

August Gráinne, so at least I'm ahead of you on that. But I can't imagine that I'm going to do anything other than cover myself in national shame. So I'm excited. Okay, today, Catherine, we are talking about a heroic Irish legend, not Terry Wogan, but rather Gráinne O'Malley. And you studied medieval history at Trinity. Is that right, Catherine? You love saying this every time, Greg. But it's like, I mean, I certainly went to a university and there was a history course on. Whether or not I attended much of it is up for debate. I, yeah, I did. I mean, I can't say that women were massive focuses of the course that I did. And that is a great shame. But I do love a lady on a boat. So I'm sure I'll get into it.

All right. Well, by the end of this, hopefully you'll be the second international expert on Gronia alongside Gillian. So that'll be fun, isn't it? Why can't I take Gillian? So what do you know? Gillian? So, what do you know? This is where I have a crack at guessing what you at home might know about today's subjects. And if you're one of our lovely Irish listeners, you will know, of course, about Gráinne o Máli, or at least you'll know the name, or rather you'll know her Irish

name, which I'm not going to try and pronounce because I tried it before and Gillian laughed at me. Let's just all agree that she has an Irish name that we have mangled as a nation. Okay, and if you're English or American, chances are you call her Grace O'Malley, which is completely different, like a whole other name. It's a bit weird. You might be envisaging a flame-haired and equally fiery-tempered pirate queen, the most kick-ass redhead since Marvel's Black Widow, but four centuries before Marvel's Black Widow, of course. And yet, there is no movie or TV show about Gráinne. A bit of a surprise, really, because here we have a badass lady pirate. You'd think she'd crop up in pop culture. There have been a few things. There have been some plays written about her. There have been

folk songs sung about her. There was a 2007 Broadway musical called The Pirate Queen. And yes, last year, there was a graphic novel, Pir Pirate Queen Legend of Gráinne O'Malley but I suspect most of you listening at home probably have encountered her if you have encountered her through your children's bedtime stories goodnight stories for rebel girls so what else might we know about this rebel gal well you may know that she was a marauding, misbehaving and mischievous pirate along the west coast of Ireland and she was best gal pals with Elizabeth I of England. But is that true?

I can see Gillian is giggling. Maybe not. What do we really know about Gráinne O'Malley and does she live up to her infamous reputation as a genuine pirate queen? Let's find out. OK, first of all, Dr Gillian, this is a story that mostly unfolds in the 16th century in Ireland, about 500 years ago. But actually, I'm going to throw to Catherine here because she's an expert ready to take on Gillian. So Catherine,

what was the political context of Ireland in the 16th century? Oh, you were the bad guys. I mean, we're finished. See, I got the historian's approval. Yeah, you were the baddies, we were the goodies, and it remains ever such. Well, I mean, it's roughly accurate, I suppose. I'm looking for a bit more detail, but, you know, I can't argue that much. All right, Gillian, would you like to finesse that slightly

with a bit more political context? So, basically, by about 1500, you have to imagine a country that's culturally split. Going back a little bit further, when the Anglo-Normans invaded in the 12th century, their invasion and colonization didn't take over the whole country and it kind of ground to a halt. And then you have areas of English influence, as it's called. So that would be Dublin and the counties around it, like a hinterland, the major cities and three large lordships around the country. So it's basically centred on the east and southern areas of Ireland, the west and north.

It's a much more Gaelic experience. And at this time, around 1500, they call themselves things like Old English, descendants of the Anglo-Normans. And then you have the Irish or the Gaelic Irish. And then as the 16th century progresses, as the Tudors come into play and turn their attention to Ireland, you start to get what are called the New English coming in, who are Protestant settlers, very opposed to the Gaelic way of doing things. That doesn't tell the full story because it is a cultural mishmash. The great English lords in Ireland, loads of them spoke Irish. Some of them didn't speak English.

They married Irish women. Sometimes they followed Irish laws. And there's a real cultural exchange going on in the country. And it's run basically by some of the bigger old English families having a free hand with it. And it's kind of settled.

It runs in a certain way. And once the tutor's arrived but yeah basically you're the baddies yeah i was just thinking as you spoke i was like sure isn't this what i said yeah oh god yeah i'll just leave now you can leave it to kathy she's got a spot on gronira is growing up in the west of the country so she is the irish irish we think she's born what roughly 1530 yeah who's Yeah. Who's her dad? What's the situation? Is she, you know, born with a cutlass in hand? How can we only ask who her dad was? Oh, straight in.

I want to know all the stuff. So dad and mum and siblings. But I'm assuming it's a patriarchal society. Does dad matter more than mum? That's quite interesting. Irish society provides a lot of power for women, particularly married women. But it's, you know, it is patriarchal in the sense that it is a warrior society. It is controlled by men. So yeah, her dad is Owen O'Malley. Her mother was also an O'Malley. Irish families are quite big,

so it's not particularly incestuous or anything. There's a lot of O'Malleys to choose from. I was like, Gillian, do not give us a bad rep from the outside. If it's a second cousin, it's okay. Ah, the Irish way. I've got something like 80 cousins, man. Come on, give me a break. They're both O'Malleys.

They're both O'Malleys. And the O'Malleys are, they're unusual because they're seafarers. So they also, they run their own little kingdom. Ireland at that time in the Gaelic areas, there's lots of little kingdoms. There are lots of little kings, chieftains everywhere. And then they'll have like an over chief to the regional power. So it's not a particularly powerful family, but they are unusual because of course they have fleet of war galleys and they go around imposing taxes on ships that pass by them,

which is basically piracy. So they also farm though. So they have kind of two sides to it. When you say they're kind of pirates, I love that it's only diluted by virtue of the fact they also own farmland. So, you know. They're farm pirates.

You know what I mean? Where else would you get it? Exactly. When they said like, we're here to collect taxes, on thread of what like did they kill people yeah yeah they just kill you right so when you said kind of pirates you meant like proper yeah yeah yeah they throw you into the drink like but um you wouldn't say no to them you'd be like yeah fair enough and when she's pretty young one of the nicknames i mean gronja

gets got a lot of nicknames one of the nicknames is uh gron the Bald. Catherine, do you want to have a guess at how that's happened? Do they cut her hair so that she could be on the ship and look like a boy? Gillian? The story is she wanted to go to sea with her dad. And he was like, no, because you've got such long hair, Gráinne, and it'll catch in the rigging or whatever, you know. Oh, for the love of... And she went, well, fair enough, I'll lose my hair then and shaved it all off. She cut it herself

well so the story goes what a dramatic teenager that's such a teenage move that's like oh I can't go somewhere if I have too long oh well you'll see I'm

I love that dads will go out of their way to make up rubbish excuses so their daughters can't do things oh no your hair will catch in the old rig in there

you know it'll be like it's like what yeah you can't it's a health, it's like, what the hell? Yeah, you can't sail. It's a health and safety thing, darling, I can't. Yeah. So she's cut her hair off. And then at 16, we think she marries the Ophlarites, so they're sort of a neighbouring chieftain.

And she marries Donal, who is, well, let's say he's underwhelming as a husband, shall we? I mean, Gillian, in your notes, you've called him a loser. That's my considered scholarly opinion. The stuff that's come down to us is that basically he was a hothead and was just useless as a ruler. So couldn't kind of manage himself,

let alone anyone else. So she seems to have stepped into the breach. His men tended to follow her, but this is probably when she starts to make a bit of a name for herself, raiding up and down the breach. His men tended to follow her, but this is probably when she starts to make a bit of a name for herself, raiding up and down the coast. Here's the thing that you need to know, Greg, and you won't know this intuitively

as an English person. There isn't a good Donal. No, that's right. Do you know what I mean? I've never met a Donal I liked. So you had to be told he was a loser. I wouldn't have needed to have been. She just said it was a Donal.

The name of a weak man. Sorry to all Donals a loser. I wouldn't have needed to have been. She just said it was a donald. The weak man. Sorry to all donalds out there. I don't apologise. These Irish generalisations are amazing. But truly, donalds are trash. This is great. Yeah. Well, this donald is trash, but I'm not going to stand for that.

I'm sure there are lots of lovely donalds. Anyway, moving on. At this time in Irish law, do you want to guess, Catherine, how many different types of marriage are available to a young person? I mean, three? Three's a good guess.

Want to go higher? It seems like I should. Seven? You have to go higher again. My God. This really annoys me. You have to understand that I was a queer person in the early noughties in Ireland

and apparently before this we had options. I mean, okay, 12? There are 10 different ways of getting married. Gillian, can we just like very quickly, how do you have 10 different types of marriage? Oh, because it's a really complex legal system. The jurists who did it all, they sort of wanted to make sure that they coverage

for every conceivable thing that could ever happen the one that everyone wanted of course was a marriage of equals where you both brought equal property then you've ones where man brings more woman brings less and there's all different legal definitions you've got one called a soldier's marriage which is basically a one-night stand so some of them are really dodgy you've got ones which are like a booty call which is where you live in separate houses but you just hook up i mean honest to god like i'm trivializing it but they're like they must stay in separate dwellings and only come together for sex oh okay then hello 21st century um so there's no so irish that we would have we would accept hookups happen but

they'd better be married when they do it let me tell you there has to be coverage for any any legal problems that come out of it so there's there's really dodgy ones I mean there's basically sexual assault and stuff but the thinking of it is is that there's some protection especially for the women involved because they'll have rights as married women Grainne's marriage is a marriage of equals as you've mentioned Julian so she brought she brought ships and stuff and Donal brought stuff. Was her marriage chosen by her or organised for her? Oh, it would have been organised for her.

Yeah. So the marriage has had to serve the family's political purposes. So she's landed a Donal. She's just handed a Donal and said, this is your Donal. Do you know what I mean? There's no way out. Well, there is a way out. I suppose she'd always tip him in the drink. She's a young

woman, she's married, she's got kids, and yet she's also now a pirate. She's up and down the West Coast, she's got ships, and she is having a lovely time. And then Donal dies. In fact, he doesn't just die, he is killed. He's murdered by a rival clan, the Joyces. The Joyces then attack the

castle that Gráinne is in and she leaps to the defences, doesn't she? Yeah, so the castle was called Cock's Castle because she defended it. Because Donal was a cock. Because Donal was a cock. And then she defended it so well that they renamed it Hen's Castle for her.

But again, what's fact, what's fiction? We don't know. You know, you can take it with a pinch of salt, but what it's testament to is someone who was obviously extraordinary and the stories are still coming down to us. So she must have been a hell of a woman. Are we certain she didn't pay the Joyce's to kill him?

Well, I mean, to the artist, she could have divorced him, but it's a lot of hassle. Catherine, have you ever had anything renamed after you in your honour? No, to be fair, I mean, to the artist's system, she could have divorced him, but it's a lot of hassle. Catherine, have you ever had anything renamed after you in your honour? No, to be fair, I haven't really had the opportunity to defend a property I owned

in the wake of my husband's death. But I think the second I do, stuff's really going to change for me. Gráinne is an absolute baller on the battlefield and at sea. You know, she clearly can handle herself and she's been raised in a pretty comfortable situation. I guess we'd call a minor aristocracy maybe. But her rights get screwed over

pretty quickly. As a widow, when Donal dies, she has the rights of a child. She then has to say goodbye to her kids. They're taken off her. And what happens to her stuff, to her life? Yeah, under the Gaelic-Irish system, so you have enormous freedom of action. As a woman, you have massive legal rights. You can also administer the goods you bring with you to a marriage, which gives them an enormous amount of power because sometimes they're brought with them as their dairy soldiers or as she might have done ships.

When you're a widow, though, it reverts and you have to go back under the kind of ownership of your nearest male relative now that could be your son could be your uncle could be your father now we're not entirely sure what happened with grania because the thing about her is she she never appears to have done anything she's supposed to do anyway but what what looks like she's done is is go back but it doesn't look like she lived under a male overlordship in that sense. It looks like she still plied her trade. I mean, the thing is, she's described in the 1590s

as being the nurse of all rebellions for the last 40 years. So she must have started around that time, 1550s, 1560s. So it looks like she was active. And for the next while after the death of Donal the Useless, she appears to have struck out herself. She's an unusual figure because she appears to have carved out power as a minor chieftain. That's not happened in Irish history before for a woman. That makes her very unique.

She does keep some of the ships. She does keep some of Donal's men. Like they kind of go, well, he's dead and he was a bit of a douche anyway, so we're going to come with you. Yeah. Which means she gets to carry on being a pirate queen yeah and she also now gets to be young and flirty because she's she's picking up various gentlemen lovers by the sounds of it yeah because in the irish system as well right there's no slur on someone for like having a good time um you know with members of the opposite sex um or the same sex actually i'm so glad you finally brought this up because i was

like are you genuinely trying to tell me this baller of a battler who rides around on ships and takes men's money is not at least bisexual is that your line is that the line we're taking please i don't know you know what she could well be actually she cut off her own hair i mean there's no evidence she was gay but there's no evidence she wasn't so that's exactly correct yes but um what we can say though is that you know as an unmarried widow she's having fun with various chaps she probably has more children with other other men and then her dad dies now catherine last time out as a widow she lost a lot of her rights a lot of her land what do you think happens when her dad dies okay so presumably she was theoretically under his care while she was romping around on the waters having sex with women so i'm gonna guess i'm writing my own version now

i'm gonna assume her rights reverted under somebody else i haven't heard tell of an uncle so i hope she doesn't have to be taken care of by a son jillian what should have happened is that um she would be under the overlordship of another male relative but there doesn't appear to have been one to keep her in check so she just appears to have kept going and carving out this sphere of influence for herself um yeah her her children would have been quite young and her children bioflaherty most likely would have been kept by his family. Children were seen as the property of the father in that kind of situation because they're so precious in terms of making alliances and furthering the ambitions of the family.

So she may have had more kids. She's reputed to have had more kids. But again, she's quite powerful in how she lives her life. Is it fair to say she becomes a chieftain? There is no indication that she became the O'Malley. Certainly O'Malley's mentioned in later documents. She appears to have certainly been a major figure within that kin group, and she acted in many ways like a chieftain.

It may well have been that just no one wanted to cross her because she had boats had boats she had fighting men and it was like oh have you got the time no auntie auntie grania just just leave her she's fine she has this bit and she can manage that she's basically an irish mammy yes i mean both the fear of crossing her that actually made me feel more physically scared than thinking that she murdered people on a boat. So I was like, oh my God, don't cross her. She's everything at the end of it. Wouldn't be worth it.

My God. Yeah, it's that. When we get to know her really well, when she's powerful, she's fairly well on in age terms. So you just imagine, you know, this kind of Brenda Fricker with a bit of an attitude. Do you know what I mean? Or who said to me the nun from Derry Girls with a sword? i'll just give me just give me the stuff or i'm gonna hit you oh fair enough here you go just give me your when i write the lesbian screenplay of this she probably is going to have long red hair and be slim just because you know like male gaze but i let me be

on record as saying brenda fricker on a boat sounds equally sexy. So one of my favourite stories about her, and we don't know if this is true or not, it goes down at Hoth Castle. Catherine, if you were to go to your favourite restaurants and they haven't got a table for you, how are you going to react? Well, in Hoth, they should have because it's fancy, so I would have made a booking. But she's also made a trek to Hoth, to be honest with you. That's a bit of a way from Connacht. So to be honest with you, if I was disappointed service-wise, I think I would kick off a bit. And everything I know about her makes me think she'd kick off a lot.

So would you maybe sort of write a slightly rude Instagram comment or a bad Yelp review? Is that where you'd go? Yeah, TripAdvisor would hear about it. No, I wouldn't say anything in person, obviously. I'm not a maniac, but I would, Yeah, they'd get a bad review, sure. But you probably wouldn't kidnap the family member of the restaurant manager?

I mean, did she do that? Oh my God, I love her so much. She's insane. That's so great. That's like, oh, that's beautiful. That is beautiful. Did she really? Gillian?

Yeah, so she beautiful. That is beautiful. Did she really? Gillian? Yeah, so she did. Yeah. Well, according to the story. So the story is that she landed a hoath and she went up to the castle to get a spot to eat, as you do, and they barred the doors against her. So she took off and spotted the young heir to everything,

playing on the beach, picked him up, put him in her boat and sailed back to the west of Ireland with him. Hoth Castle is on the east coast of Ireland in Dublin, listeners, by the way. So it's a fair track. And then his granddad had to haul his arse across Ireland and negotiate for the return of his beloved heir. And then she extracted a promise from them that they would always lay an extra space at a table.

From now on, they were still doing that at Hope Castle, as far as I know, until recently. That's how much fear she engenders. That is hangry at a new level, isn't it? That's hardcore, isn't it? She is a baller. We've got Gornia now aged roughly 30 probably give or take and what happens at this point in her life is really important

because we now get the arrival of Elizabeth I on the throne of England and she takes after her dad in being very much not chill when it comes to Ireland she wants to civilize it in inverted commas um she's a protest, of course the Irish are Catholics. She is sending in administrators, and these guys do not play nicely. And they've got some pretty sneaky tactics. It's not just violence, it's also, is it something called surrender and regrant? Gillian, can you explain what that is? So Henry VIII brings in a system called surrender and regrant. The aim is to civilise Ireland, to finish the conquest started by the Anglo-Normans.

It's to impose English civilisation and culture on the island. To the English, of course, it makes sense. It means you centralise power in Ireland. It means you don't have constant what they saw as faction fighting, which is the Irish kingdoms tended to war against each other a lot. It makes enormous sense. And Ireland's a massive drain on the English resources. So they want to save money. So Surrender and Regrant happens. And basically, at this time when it's carried out in the 1530s and 40s, they have a very, very capable English administrator in Ireland who's carrying it out called St. Ledger. And he's very good at doing it. And he gets quite a few Irish to come over, Irish Gaelic lords. And they will be, so they're regranted their lands. They hold under primogeniture, which is the English common law system.

And they say bye-bye to the Irish legal system. So they basically become English lords. They sit in the parliament. So you see a little succession of them going over to the king in England and being confirmed. And it's all quite nice. And it's coming together. But then it peters out, really.

It doesn't work under Edward so well, under Mary. By the time it gets to Elizabeth, the thinking has changed. The Irish have lost trust in the system because unfortunately, some of the later administrators saw Ireland as something to be exploited. When they goaded enough Irish kings into rebellion, they could take the lands off them and could hand them out to new English settlers. So that's when we start to get in this new crowd and it becomes very chaotic. You get plantations started in the 1550s in Ireland and the Irish rulers begin to see,

actually, they're just going to take the lands from us and divide them out. And rebellions break out constantly. Yeah, and the most famous one probably is the the first desmond rebellion by the mean the earl of desmond is locked up in the tower of london and his men kick off yeah um he's called gerald fitzgerald good name gerald son of gerald catherine do you want to guess what his supporters are called geraldites oh nearly the geraldines of course they are! Of course they're the Geraldines! Isn't it lovely? It's so adorable, the Geraldines. It's very sweet. I love that there are fan names. That's great. Love it.

I mean, the Geraldines kick off, and that's the first Desmond Rebellion. There are several rebellions. One of the really nasty people at the time is Walter Raleigh's brother, Sir Humphrey Gilbert. He's one of these administrators who... He's really cruel. He's killing men, women and children, isn't he? He liked to do two things. He liked to particularly terrorise older women. There's some reports we have from one of his campaigns. They called old

women kyloks, which is an Irish word meaning hag. And he particularly liked to kill them. He also liked to cut off the heads of everyone he killed and lay them down as a kind of hallway outside his tent. The amount of child casualties in these wars is astonishing. And he used to lay them down as a kind of a pathway and then make their relatives come in and parley with him so they'd have to look at the heads of their dead relatives. but there's an increasing othering of the Irish in thinking they are seen as barbarian, they are seen as less than, so it's easy to kill. So that's what begins to happen. The tide changes, the tone changes, and it becomes very, very vicious. But the need and the willingness to make whoever you need to subjugate animalistic and uncivilized and thus less human is so it's such an old school trick but it's so damn effective i wonder how i mean clearly elizabeth knew about this to what degree would you say that murder of children and older women and

brutalizing the population was the policy or overlooked willfully? It's overlooked. This is happening at the provincial level but the higher ups, there are people in charge in Dublin who are trying to stop it. Is it Humphrey Gilbert? Yeah.

Do you think his mum was unkind? He didn't like old ladies, did he? No. Do you know what I mean? He's not Macron. I don't know. Yeah, maybe his mother beat him. I don't know.

And he's like, oh, old lady. Yeah, I'm going to get you now. I think he's just probably some weird pervert. Do you know what I mean? Sure sounds like a perv or a donal as we call them. He's your classic donal right there. You can't say that about people who donal. They're a nice people who donal.

Let's talk about Gronja again, because she is now entering a new phase of life. She gets married again in 1567 to Richard Burke. He's quite a big deal. Hang on, Catherine. Do you want to guess why this marriage might have been a bit awkward around the dinner table at Christmas? I feel like I can never predict what she's going to...

Why? Tell me why. Donal had killed Richard's brother or stepbrother. That is so Donal. Okay. Yeah, it is so Donal. Case closed. Wait, brother or stepbrother? So a stepbrother, which is a brother really, isn't it?

I suppose in Irish law at the time. I mean, and indeed in the world. Yeah, why are they less? I know, I know. Tell us, Catherine. Basically, Gráinne's first husband had killed Gráinne's second husband's brother. So it's quite a complicated story. So was that something he said on the first date?

Is that why she was into him? And they have another kid. The child is called Theobald, which is a nice name for a baby. The story goes that Gráinne gives birth and then the next day Algerian pirates turn up and attack her fleet. She reacts in typical Gráinne fashion. She runs out with a blunderbuss and shoots at them. These are stories which are romanticised, aren't they?

But they say a lot about how people thought of her. She must have had a royal reputation for being just badass. Well, all I can say is no stitches, obviously. That's all I'm going to say on that. Do you think that they purposely chose the day after she gave birth? She's tied up and then she's screaming at them, go and take this from her unconsecrated hands. That's what she's screaming at them, apparently,

because she hasn't been churched. apparently she got rid of them so the kid is theobald but they call him in irish tibetan along which is theobald of the ship because he was apparently born on this ship i mean the problem with richard is that he's pretty powerful but the english then come along with their sneaky surrendering regrant lord remember catherine the law where they they invite people you know greg no ir Irish person's forgotten it. Can I go on? It's in my bones. Okay, come and be an English lord, essentially.

And what that means is that Richard gets disinherited from the powerful MacWilliam Burke lands that he's meant to inherit next. The English basically strip that away from him. So he has been kind of cheated by the English. Is that what we're has been kind of cheated by the English. Is that what we're calling a kind of cheated?

Well, okay. Daylight robbery occurred. Catch them. Yeah, and you may go on. So Gráinne has two choices. She can choose. She can either negotiate with the English and play the same game or she can launch a rebellion.

1577, what do you think she does? I think she does not negotiate with the English and play the same game or she can launch a rebellion. 1577, what do you think she does? I think she does not negotiate with the English because we don't negotiate with terrorists. No. I'm going to guess she goes for the rebellion. She doesn't. Really? This is what is interesting about Gráinne.

Was she tired that day? Maybe she's very, very bored of just running around with a blunderbuss. She thinks she's, you know, she's just very, very bored of just running around with a blunderbuss. She thinks, oh, you know what? Bit of diplomacy. No, she talks to the English representative, Henry Sidney, and she even offers him ships and her men.

He comes and visits her. Was he hot? Was he young? No. Not especially, I don't think. What I do love is, though, that when he comes to visit and inspect her sort of coastal defences,

she charges him for the visit, which is very funny. Amazing. That's how she gets her money. Is inspecting your... That's not a euphemism. I was going to say. Okay, yeah. Come and inspect my sea defences.

Darling, come inspect my coastal defences. I charge you for it. A king's ransom to look at my sea defences. So she talks to Henry Sidney, who's who? Who's an English administrator. He's not quite as barbaric and monstrous as the other chaps. And what's interesting about this is that the other Irish then think, hang on a minute, is Gráinne on Team England? So she is then arrested, imprisoned by the Earl of Desmond

and his lovely Geraldines. Fair enough. And they chuck her in prison. At this level of society with the aristocracy, what they want to do, Irish and English, is to hold on to what they have for their families. And if that means that she has to come to terms with an English Lord Deputy, then she will, because she's absolutely very astute and she knows exactly which way the cookie crumbles. Or she's a traitor and the Geraldines were right.

Well, we'll hold it against her forever. Oh, you've turned, Catherine. That's it now. She's dead to me, says Catherine. You were all Team Gronya and now you're like, yeah, throw in the soup. Didn't realise she was a salad. She took the soup. Oh my God, she did not. Different century, come on.

All connected, Greg. Do you want to guess what type of prison we're talking here? I'm going to go ahead and guess there wasn't a women's prison at the time. I mean, was it like a jail in a castle? Like a fancy one, like with sort of, you know, plush cushions. Yeah, I don't think there'd be plush cushions but I think if anything the ones in castles

always seem more dramatically sparse but I've only garnered that from Netflix I sparse in a sort of

Ikea sort of very minimalist Swedish 70s look yeah I wouldn't have even said Swedish I would have just said like brutalist but

I think you're pretty much on the money there, really. It's Dublin Castle, but this is not fancy, is it? This is rats and skeletons type prison. Yeah, we know from other prisoners being held there that they certainly used to put fetters on them, especially around their ankles, even high ranking prisoners. So she would have been kept in probably not the most pleasant conditions. And she would have had to have people in Dublin to bring in her, you know, food.

I was going to say takeaway. Bring in her food and any kind of stuff she needed because that was the way it was back then in the prisons, of course. There's no system for looking after people. But, you know, she was raiding down and got captured by the Earl. So she's up to her old tricks, you know. She's not being great. And then he captures her to impress the English administration in Dublin

and she gets shipped off there to keep her quiet for a wee bit. After two years in prison, two years in a prison like that is incredibly dangerous. You can die of diseases in a prison. Remarkably, she comes out of it and ends up as a lady. She ends up as Lady Burke. Richard becomes an Earl. They've done a deal with the English. They have seen which way the cookie has crumbled, as you said, Gillian,

and they've gone, all right, look, come on. We need to support our own families. We need to stop this happening again. So they do a deal with the English. I really thought you said when she came out she became a lesbian. You're hoping. I was like, oh, not just gay for this day. Get it, Gráinne.

I would say that it is more understandable to me that they did that at the point at which she has just been probably mentally tortured for if not and physically deprived for two years that seems i mean she goes back home they let her go because the second desmond rebellion is breaking out because it looks like her husband richard burke is probably going to join in with it at this stage. He kicks off to stretch English power. And then she doesn't join in with it, interestingly. She keeps out of it. And then eventually she joins in when it looks like his claim to the MacWilliam Burke,

which is the overlordship, it's given to someone else. And then she joins him and they come together. And then they pose such a threat together to the English. Basically, they come to terms with the English and then she's Lady Burke and he becomes MacWilliam Burke. So it's wins for all. But then Richard promptly dies. So she doesn't get to be Lady Burke for long, does she? Long enough still.

I mean, she keeps the title, but he goes in 1583. She's still got a lot of life left in her. I mean, she's probably in her 40s at this point. She's still got a lot of life left in her. I mean, she's probably in her 40s at this point. And she carries on plundering and pillaging and pirating and asking people for voluntary donations. And she's mixing and matching Irish law as well, isn't she? Now that she's part of the English system and the Irish system,

she's very cunning in just sort of going, well, today I'll be Irish, tomorrow I'll be English. And she's, you know, she's playing the game. There's a lesson in there for all of us, isn't there? You can be Irish and English. You can game. There's a lesson in there for all of us, isn't there? You can be Irish and English. You can be a little bit of both. Especially if you're a mid-level footballer from the UK. Yes, yes.

Your accent is indeterminate. She's very clever. She, under the Irish system, you're entitled to take your goods back with you when he's dead. So, you know, she would have brought any vessels she brought with her, any cattle. They're the currency in Ireland. And then she also said, oh, I'm an English lady now. Right, I would have brought any vessels she brought with her, any cattle, they're the currency in Ireland. And then she also said, oh, I'm an English lady now.

Right, I'll have a castle, thanks. And basically just took a castle. How? What law was that? So in the English system, you're entitled to your dower, which is a third of your dead husband's lands. And sometimes you used to have what's called a jointure, which is a joint settlement of lands. And when he died, you got it to to manage so she just went brilliant so i'm english now am i thanks i'll have that castle and she used to tie her boat to the uh apparently a hook above her bed

when she went to bed at night she'd tie her boat up i can feel if anyone tugs on my boat not a euphemism, and then she would be ready to leap out and throw blunderbusses at them or whatever. She's lost her husband, but she gets a new man in her life, but not in a romantic way, in a, oh God, here comes an absolute bellend of a man in Sir Richard Bingham,

who is one of these English administrators who is just the worst. He's an absolute douchebag. They sort of become each other's grand nemesis, really. It becomes like a real relationship of hatred. And he's a very short man, and I don't usually do jokes about short men, but I just like mocking him because he's a terrible person.

But he's very, very angry. He's a soldier. He's got a sort of real chip on his shoulder. And she ends up at war with him, essentially. He is brutal. You know, he rounds up some of her family members and executes them for petty crimes. He burns her land.

He really goes for her, doesn't he? The main thing is he's short. Ugh. Bingham is a very experienced soldier and also probably a psychopath. He was involved with the Second Desmond Rebellion, broke out in 1579 which um gronya's husband supported in the west that was astonishing the second desmond rebellion in terms of the genocidal activity savage so bingham uh his famous quote is the irish can't be tamed with words only

with swords that was an aphorism richard very much lived to. So there's all these stories about him. There's one day and he sat at the Assizes, which is the court, and he hung 70 people in a session, which is astonishing, which is like a mechanization of murder. So there's one raid he carried out and he said he killed 100 men, women and children. Bingham becomes obsessed with her. Bingham hates her and he focuses all his power on her. So Bingham is told by the crown to, what they wanted to do is to impose what's called a cess on the Irish, which is a tax.

It's called a composition of connoct, what Bingham was carrying out. He wants the Irish to pay this and then to stop all the exactions which they customarily carried out within their own kingdom. So it's again, this idea of centralizing, of making it much more like England.

The Irish went, no thanks, because not only did he do that, he was getting very involved in internal politics. And he was trying to decide who was going to inherit which kingdom. And he got involved in the MacQuillian Burks again, and they massively kicked off. It just set off years of rebellions.

If you goad them into rebellion, you can eventually take their land. So it serves as a very useful tool. Bingham captures at least one of her sons, is involved in the death of another son, Owen, who is stabbed 12 times by Bingham. And he also captures Gráinne and builds a gallows and points at it and goes, I could hang you at any point if I wish to to which is just his sort of cruel flirtation technique i was gonna say do you think all of her friends sit around in her castle being like i bet she really fancies you though that's why he's so obsessed you know what i mean i wouldn't worry about a gronya it's actually like

a really weird twisted rom-com where he's desperately trying to get gallows did he bit much he's negging her this This is his ultimate pick-up line. He's a show-off. I can kill you. So Gráinne turns to an unlikely ally in that she pops off to England to go and meet the Queen, which is where our children's stories of Gráinne being best pals with Queen Elizabeth, this is where this comes from.

This is a genuine thing that really happened. She went to London in a sort of Paddington way, but probably a bit more violent. Yeah, basically. Her son has risen up in rebellion uh has been arrested by bingham theobald tibbotton along the one who was born in the ship uh she's properly afraid he's gonna hang tibbott she's boxed in increasingly uh during the 15 after bingham arrived 1580s and 90s you see a lot more english naval vessels along the coast of Ireland, which puts pay to a voluntary donation scheme. So she's increasingly desperate.

There's also all kinds of shenanigans going on in Ulster where they're starting to rise up as well. See, she has no way out. It's an interesting conundrum for her. There is no help for her on the Gaelic side. We often think of this in a binary way, but she's willing to find help where she can get it. And she takes off for, she writes a letter to London, and then she takes off to London to go and visit the Queen. We don't know if she did actually get to see her. At that stage, Elizabeth didn't always meet with visitors. What's interesting for her is she's the spokesperson for all of them rising up in rebellion. The members of her family,

the Burks, the O'Malleys, the Flaherty's. And it's fascinating. She talks about her life, how she's basically a poor farmer. And who would have thought

if she's like, I'm sorry, piracy, I don't understand. I'm sorry, what rebellion? She just used sexism against them.

Yeah, she's like, I'm sorry, what is this rebellion you speak of mr man she played dumb like all the best women have had to do in their lives that's amazing i'm just what she wants from elizabeth is she wants her her son tibbett pardoned her brother's also in trouble she wants him pardoned she wants yeah get this she's like basically liz I'm I'm now English more or less so I'd like uh I'd like my sons to support me like an English common law like the whole dower thing I'd like that from their lands as well because you know basically I'm 100% English now thanks Elizabeth says yeah crack on you can do it

the only thing the only thing she kind of uh gave out to her for was for, so Gráinne had attacked her own son, right? Murrah, who's one of her old Flaherty sons, because he supported Bingham. And she was like, excuse me, and took off and flattened him. So she was like, don't flatten your kid's lands. And it was like, all right, I get it. And yeah, so she was at court and, you you know it was supposed to be extraordinary because like they were speaking Irish and her crew and her gang and they would have dressed very differently

that you know they didn't look they didn't dress like the Elizabethans did so the story goes that she met Elizabeth and the only language they could converse in was Latin. Sex oh sorry Latin. Latin. Sex. Oh. Sorry. Sorry, Latin. Latin.

I mean, there is one cute little story about the sort of differences in culture where she needs to blow her nose and an English gentleman lends her a hanky and she blows her nose and then throws it on the fire. And he's like, well, I needed that back. It's worth like a thousand pounds. And she's like, you mean you want the snotty hanky back? That's gross. And he's like, fair point. So, I mean, there is a sort of moment there where the irish and english have a different etiquette on hankies but who's the barbarian now i was just gonna say and we needed civilizing

hoarding your snot is it english man why would you hoard your snot you're weird but my favorite line is that it says that queen elizabeth saysronja has at times lived out of order, as if she's sort of had a minor scuffle. This is a pirate queen who has raided up and down the coast for 40 years. No, Greg, she's a farmer. She's a farmer lady. Sorry, of course, she's a minor farmer who's just an old lady and wants to spend time with her grandkids. So she's gone and she's got what she wanted and she goes back home. And of course, Bingham, being Bingham, completely ignores all of this and is a total arse about it. So she has to go back to the court for the second time, we think.

And this time Elizabeth takes it seriously and Bingham gets his comeuppance. Is that right? He gets investigated. Yeah, he completely ignored the instructions that were sent to him. I mean, he lost his mind with anger. I mean, he was really, really pissed off. He was writing to them in England going, she's basically the root of all rebellions and I can't do a thing about her. Of course, they sent her back and they didn't get any sureties for her behavior. So she's all like, well, I'm going to be fine now. And then goes home and launches straight back into it again. And Bingham's like, what did I say? I told you this. He corrals her again. He stations men on her land and she feels very

hemmed in. So she complains again and he gets yanked back. Not only did she join the English, she was a little snitch. Yeah, well, she's snitching. You know, she uses the tools of the oppressor against them, Catherine. I think that's how we have to frame this. I think that's an interesting framing as opposed to her using it to her own advantage and ultimately becoming one of them. But sure, I like her and we don't have enough gay women in history. So let's go with it.

Good. I think the truth with Grainne though is that we have here someone who's politically extremely savvy and who has played the system. She's 60 something at this point and she's going to live into her 70s. She is just relentlessly still hanging on and being really, really clever.

But it doesn't match what's going on in the rest of Ireland. You know, we do still have another rebellion in the 1590s in Ulster, and we do have, again, more deals done by Theobald, by Gráinne. They are securing the family's safety, aren't they? And then by 1603, we think is when she might die. Yeah, the last time we see her in a record is 1601. So people think she died. I mean, I think people think she died in 1603, because then she died in the same year as Elizabeth, because they were basically contemporaries. But she seems to have disappeared at some stage in

the first decade of the 17th century. So she was fairly well on. Yeah, she was an incredibly ruthless operator, as she should have been, as befitted the time. And I think we often imbue these people with later ideas about nationalism and about what it meant to be Irish. And it doesn't really enter into it. What it meant to her was the primary driver for her and her son were the family lands and your primary drivers to hand them on. And they were really successful in doing that. And if that meant, as Theobald did, Theobald entered into agreements with the English. He worked on their behalf as she did. She offered Elizabeth all her

galleys and her service because they were maintaining their lands. Because when it kicked off in Ulster, of course, so Donald came down into Connacht and was trying to kick out Gráinne and Theobald as well. Theobald later went on to be Viscount Mayo. So they become a really entrenched part of, yeah, of this new Ireland that's emerging. And, you know, they suffered for it. They had horrendous times. Everyone did.

But they were one of the few families who managed to cling on into the 17th century, which is testament to their political skill, Theobald and his mother, which she obviously tutored him in. Catherine, how are you feeling about Ronya now? We know her as a pirate queen. Do you think that sums her up or do you think we need to change the framing? I think it does, but she sounds like quite a politically savvy person, both militarily and politically quite strategically effective.

So it seems like she, it almost seems to do her a disservice. It feels like piracy was her passion, but strategy was her skill. But she was gay. Oh, like she was definitely gay. And I'm so sad that she had to sleep with all those men for political motivation.

But I'm so glad she finally met Liz and they were happy. You know, that's the main thing. So nice. The Nuance Window! That brings me to my favourite part of the episode, which is the Nuance Window, where we allow our expert two minutes to talk about whatever it is we need to know.

OK, I've got my stopwatch up, Gillian. So you've got two minutes to do the nuance window. I'm starting my clock now. Okay, so everyone thinks that Gráinne O'Malley was a very exceptional woman and there's been nothing like her before in Irish history. And in many ways, she is exceptional, as we've discussed. But also she represents probably the end

or one of the ends of a long line of very powerful, very influential women in Gaelic Ireland. Irish women, particularly Irish wives, wielded a large amount of political power. So they could lead their own troops, which they often did in contravention of their husband's wishes. They could sit on war councils, they often advised, and they often acted as negotiators. And those are things that happened for hundreds of years before the Tudors came to Ireland. And what comes out really strongly in the Elizabethan period, which you don't so much see beforehand, is a real misogyny as well. So the Elizabethans, they had a real hatred of what they called disorderly women.

And they saw women like Gráinne as being sluttish, vain and idle. That's how Irish women were described at the time. The English chroniclers who were there said they exercised an inordinate amount of influence over their families. And that influence was always in the interests of disorder. They spread stories like women would pee

in front of their husbands and get outrageously drunk, some of which may be true, but anyway. So the thing about Gráinne is that she's the ultimate expression of it because she not only does this, but she also lives as a chieftain, which it doesn't look like anyone ever did, but she did it at a time when there's this intersection of what you could call racism because they saw the Irish as a lesser race, an absolute misogyny, and it's fueled by religious hatred. This sort of sees the end of these women. She's one of the last. So the very

sad thing about her is, of course, is that the world that she knew is dying. And she probably lives to see the end of it. But she's such a pragmatist that she chooses a way out. And the way out she chooses is the way of concord with the english there's a lesson there for all of us through the ages i think choose your enemies well thank you very much that's wonderful so what do you know now okay well we've had the nuance window so it's time for the so what do you know now which is our 60 second quiz to see what Catherine has learned from our expert, Dr. Gilliam. Catherine, you have a very strong average score on previous episodes, 8.5 out of 10. You feeling confident?

No, as ever, I'm feeling incredibly stressed. Every time I do this podcast, I'm always like, I love it. I have such a good time. I learn so much. But then I forget that there's a quiz and then we get to the end. And I think, why have I agreed to do this man's podcast again and I'm very stressed but I also don't think it's fair that I should have had to learn anything when I've taught the world about a hidden homosexual figure I feel like my work here is done I'm gonna get my stopwatch up and I'm about to hit go you ready okay here we go question one which decade do we think Gráinne was born in? 1530. Yes, very good.

Question two. What did Gráinne supposedly do when her dad wouldn't let her go out to sea with him when she was young? She cut off all her hair and was like, it won't get caught in the rigging now, old man, let's bounce. Absolutely. Question three. According to Irish law, what type of marriage did Gráinne have with her first husband, Donal O'Flaherty? A joint... Like, one of equals. It was. It was a marriage of equals. Question four. According to folklore, what did Gráinne do

when she was refused hospitality at Hoth Castle? She nicked their kid, the grandkid. She did. She kidnapped a child. I love it. Question five. After defending her dead Donald's castle from the Joyce family, what was the castle named in Gráinne's honour? Hens Castle.

Right, because it was Cox Castle, so they renamed it Hens Castle. Question six. You're doing very well so far. Question six. When visiting England, Gráinne was disgusted by an Englishman who asked her for what to be returned to him. He wanted to keep her snot for some perverse bend. Yeah.

Her hanky, yes, exactly. Yeah. She put it in the fire like a good, decent woman. Question seven. What may have made family dinners a bit uncomfortable when Gráinne married Richard Burke? Oh, her first husband had killed his stepbrother. That's right.

God, you're remembering this brilliantly. Question eight. Name one of Gráinne's many rude hobbies. Like, she slept around with toy boys. Is that what you mean? I wasn't thinking that, but that's one of Gronja's many rude hobbies. Like, she slept around with toy boys. Is that what you mean? I wasn't thinking that, but that's one of them. So you can have that. I was thinking gambling, swearing and piracy. But yeah, sleeping around, she was a... She enjoyed the fellas. I took more

offence to her sleeping with men, but I'm sure gambling is also bad. Question nine. After Gronja's son Owen was killed in 1586, she became an active rebel against which deeply unpleasant Englishman? Richard Bingham. Very good. This for a perfect round.

Question 10. Roughly how old was Gráinne when she died? Well, it depends on whether or not you think she died in 1601 or 1603. I mean, that alone is a very good answer. 70s is right. Yeah, I mean, you've nailed it. That is 10 out of 10. That is a flawless run. Yes! If you just care a little bit more, it'll really go in there.

You are still Irish. Hooray! It's a real relief. Thank you so much. Thank God for that. You're welcome. It's fine. Well, that was a sterling effort.

10 out of 10. Proof that practice makes perfect. Your third time on the show and your best score yet. Well done, Catherine. Thank you. I hope you've both enjoyed getting to grips with Gráinne. I certainly have. If Gráinne has whetted your appetite at home, listeners,

and you want some more piratical history, obviously we've got the Blackbeard episode lurking in our back catalogue. And of course, if you want more of Catherine's dulcet tones, jump on over to Joan of Arc or the 18th century elections one. A veritable selection. And remember, if you've had a laugh, if you've learned some stuff, please do share this podcast with your friends or leave a review online and make sure to subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds so you never miss an episode. All that remains for me to do is to say a huge thank you to

my wonderful guests in History Corner, the marvellous Dr Gillian Kenny from Trinity College, Dublin. Thank you, Gillian. Thank you for having me, Greg. And thank you, Catherine. Excellent score. I'm very pleased with my teaching today. You're a great teacher. I wish I had taken your course when I was in history.

That's great. And of course, a huge thank you to our Comedy Corner super nerd, Catherine Bohart. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Thank you. I also think that if you didn't enjoy me accusing women in history of being gay, then maybe don't go to the Joan of Arc episode. But if you loved it, head on over.

Anyway, that's enough for us. And you, dear listener, join me next time as we raid another historical era with a completely different crew. Anyway, I'm off to go and see if my local Pizza Express Woking will let me have a table for the rest of my life. It's not kidnapping, it's just borrowing. Anyway, see you off to go and see if my local Pizza Express Woking will let me have a table for the rest of my life. It's not kidnapping, it's just borrowing. Anyway, see you around. Bye! You're Dead to Me was a production by The Athletic for BBC Radio 4.

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