You're Dead to Me - Harriet Tubman

Episode Date: September 13, 2019

We are heading down to the Underground Railroad to discover the incredible life of American hero and abolitionist Harriet Tubman. From a torturous childhood to surgery without anaesthetic, get ready to understand true bravery as we uncover the events which made Harriet Tubman a phenomenal force for change. Greg Jenner is joined by comedian, actor and writer Desiree Burch and historian Dr Michell Chresfield from the University of Birmingham. It’s history for people who don’t like history! This episode was produced by Dan Morelle, scripted by Greg Jenner and researched by Emma Nagouse.

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, a history podcast for people who don't like history, or at least people who forgot to learn any at school. My name's Greg Jenner, I'm a public historian, author and the chief nerd on the BBC comedy show Horrible Histories. I love comedy almost as much as I love history, and I bloody love history. Every episode, I'm joined by an expert historian who knows their stuff inside out, and a top-notch comedian who knows funny inside out. And hopefully the result is gorgeous audio

alchemy, or at least something to drown out the existential despair of modern life. Today, we're off to America in search of one of the most extraordinary women of the 19th century, Harriet Tubman. And to help me do that, I'm joined by two extraordinary American women from the 21st century. In History Corner, she swapped New York and Alabama for Birmingham in the West Midlands, where she teaches the intellectual and cultural history of racial formation. It's Dr. Michelle Cressfield.

Hi, Michelle. Thanks for coming. Thank you for having me. Thank you for coming in. Have you adapted to the Brummie accent yet? Not yet, but I'm working on it. I'm two years in. Give me another year and I'll be Peaky Blinders for sure. Okay, lovely. And in Comedy Corner, she's a playwright, actor, storyteller, and one of the hottest stand-ups in the land. You'll have seen her on Live at the Apollo, The Mash Report, QI, and she's now the new host of the Netflix comedy game show, Flinch.

Yeah. It is Desiree Birch. Hello. How are you doing? I'm all right. How are you? I'm doing okay. Thanks for having me.

Have you adapted to the London accent? I mean, you mean yelling and then mumbling and then yelling. Yeah, there's so many accents. I prefer the northern ones because they're a little bit sweeter and slower. And the London one can sound like gunfire sometimes. It just comes out just like, oh, I mean, it's very intense. Desiree, you grew up in America where I imagine Harriet Tubman's on the syllabus. But how are you with history as a subject? Did you hate it at school? Is this giving you flashbacks? No, I didn't hate it. I found it fascinating. I guess I would say, though, that there is sort of

a love-hate relationship with history in that you only grow up to find out that you were miseducated in your history because every country tells the history of we're so great and like we did some stuff wrong, but it wasn't really that bad. And then we totally fixed it and we're awesome again. And so the parts of history that you get are not the parts of history that you then go encounter when you meet other people in other parts of the world who are like, you didn't know that you guys did this horrible thing? And then you're like, oh, sorry.

Okay. So you're on an apology tour. Yeah, pretty much. That is what it means to be an American abroad is the apology tour. Okay. Well, hopefully you don't have to apologize today because we're talking about a woman who did not make too many enemies. So what do you know?

Harriet Tubman is known as Grandma Moses. She escaped slavery, joined the Underground Railroad, went back to liberate hundreds of others, then became a badass spy in the Civil War. She's an icon of resistance, she's an early heroine in the Civil Rights Movement, and in Hollywood, she helps Abraham Lincoln Lincoln hunt vampires which definitely didn't happen. She also kicks serious arse in the time travel

drama Timeless which you could have seen on E4. It's quite good fun. It's worth seeing actually. Word of warning, these representations, not entirely true but you know, they're fine. One thing you should know about Harriet Tubman, she's meant to be on the $20 bill but Donald Trump he's basically holding that up. So Harriet Tubman is a sort of an American icon. And in summary,

enslaved person, spy, vampire slayer, future currency, pretty good. How much of that is true? Well, we're going to find out. We'll find out from our expert, Michelle. So Dr. Michelle, this is a comedy show, but Harriet Tubman's life does not start as a comedy. In fact, at no point is it a comedy. Right. So can we have a little bit of her early life, please? Yes. So the historical record on Harriet Tubman, right, it's quite complicated. She was a person herself who was illiterate. And so we have relied on her ability to kind of tell her story to biographers.

Right. And you see certain misrepresentations in that story. And you see certain misrepresentations in that story. But what we do know, most likely she was born around 1822 in Dorchester, Maryland, the fifth of nine children born to Harriet Ritt Green and Ben Ross. Unfortunately, her parents were owned by two separate families. And so when Harriet was a very young child, her father, well, actually her mother was sold away to a related family, but a separate family. And so that had profound implications for the way that Harriet grew up. Her mother trying to keep the children together, but with the forces of slavery separating them.

And so that's really her early childhood. It's one of itinerantism and movement and separation and not having a love of family, but not being that kind of nuclear union, of course. And she's got siblings? Yes. So she's one of nine. So she has several sisters, brothers. You know, one of the worst things that kind of happened for an enslaved family is to be sold away. And so very early on, two of Harriet's sisters are sold down south, which is so she's in Maryland and the northern system looks very different. So to be sold to the South is particularly devastating for the family. And that is that fear that is perpetuating a lot of Harriet's actions that happen for the rest of her life. And it's a tragic story, isn't it, Desiree? Does this come into the syllabus when you're a

kid, when you're learning her story? I mean, not exactly all of it. I mean, we definitely learn about her being associated with being one of the sort of main, I guess, architects or whatever you would say about the Underground Railroad. I didn't know that she was a middle child. That makes me like her even more. Her name's not Harriet, really. Right, no. She was born Araminta Ross and went by the nickname Minty. Minty, of course, wouldn't you?

Of course. It would always be Minty if that was her name. Yeah, so she's Minty until around 24, so she gets married and she takes her mother's name, Harriet. So we're not quite sure whether this is really to just honor her mother or if it's part of a like a religious conversion. So she's super religious as well. Fast, you know. Oh, wow.

Like for real. Yeah. Active religious. And oftentimes believe that she was being spoken to and led by God. Oh, nice. So she kind of has a little Joan of Arc vibe, too. She does. That's pretty sweet.

And her childhood is unfortunately one of work. I mean, she's not just enslaved. She's put to work at, what, five? Yes. So at five, she's sent out to be a nursemaid. So nursemaids were responsible for tending to young infants or children, usually sometimes. So it's literal childcare. Literal childcare. Literal child care by a child, right? So you are nurse, you are playmate, you are companion to a young child. And this particular child was often

ill. And so Harriet would face these really terrible beatings if the child cried or if the child just was uncontent, which really, you know. Well, I mean, the child's ill, so they're already not content. Yeah. But, you know, the pressure. It was her job to entertain them. Yeah. And just being sent away because up until five, she had been with her mother's care, but that was quite traumatic for her.

And she recounts that narrative oftentimes in her later biographies of just the kind of visceralness of being taken away from her mother at that young age and not really knowing what to do. Like she was just really, you know, as you might imagine, really down about it. Presumably she's being beaten. I'm assuming she's getting whipped. Yes. So a lot of physical violence is really centered to this time. Also, too, she's on. So the nursemaid is just the first gig. You can't call it a gig, right? That's a day job. Right. That's the first kind of enslaved labor that she performs. She eventually also works as a muskrat trap keeper. So she has to go out into these marshes or these rivers to check these muskrat traps.

And she counters measles. So in addition to the beatings, she's also physiologically vulnerable for all the type of work that she's doing. And so her childhood on top of the physical violence, she's very poorly for most of her childhood. Right. Which she's also hanging around with sick kids all the time. Like you think.

Right. Which in effect really drives down her worth as a slave, as someone who can be sold. Because all of these illnesses, these kind of physical maladies, the beatings are taking their toll. And also, too, she's frail. So in her adulthood, she's five feet. I mean, her childhood sounds horrible. And of course, when she's about 12 years old, there's that horrible trauma. Well, Desiree, you know this. Well, Desiree, you know this. Doesn't she, like she has, I can't remember what, she has some like massive scar

or some sort of deformation that happens because of a really savage beating that she's given. And I can't quite remember if it's the lashings up the back or if it was something that happened to her face. Like there are a lot of stories about different slaves that have different beatings that get conflated in my head. And I'm like, oh, was there like a spike in her face? Like I'm trying to remember exactly what it was, but it was something horrific. But also when you hear

the stories, it just also perpetuates this myth of like, oh, well, black people can just survive anything apparently because she got a railroad spike to the face or something like that. Michelle? Right. So I think that point that you make about this kind of presumption or survival, I think that's really important because the injury that she sustains is catastrophic. So there at one point is a slave who's attempting to abscond, has kind of transgressed in some way. And there's an overseer who throws an iron weight at this slave and Harriet steps into the path. Oh, wow.

And the weight crushes her skull. Yeah, that's, yeah. And she's not given any type of medical care worthwhile. Like, she's basically convalesces for a couple of days. They're like, okay, we'll take the rest of the afternoon off. We'll see you in the morning. Right. We'll just walk that off.

Right. Yeah. Which gives her, she's a disabled person for the rest of her life. In addition to just the kind of physical scarring of that and the devastation, she's a disabled person for the rest of her life. In addition to just the kind of physical scarring of that and the devastation, she experiences hallucinations, long bouts of sleep, which we might think of as kind of an anacralypsy in our kind of current time, as well as it starts what she comes to know as prophetic visions,

which are oftentimes hallucinations that have to be managed. so she's dealing and just chronic pain right there like through her sort of constant migraines right through her life and so this becomes this kind of ongoing thing and so we think about that in addition of this event and then all the other things that she's able to do I'm managing right that it's amazing you mentioned her father. He was freed from slavery, but Harriet wasn't. So what happens is manumission becomes more common as the... So manumission, it means

freeing. And usually it takes effect through wills. So someone would kind of go their life and say, and it usually was predicated on obedience. So if you don't run away, if you're good, then when I die, then I'll just be like, oh, I'm done with you. So you can go and live the rest of your life. Right.

And so Ben was a man admitted at the age of 45, which 45 is a very common age. And so he's free. His wife isn't. He's saving money. And eventually he purchased her freedom. But what's interesting is that Harriet solicited an aide. I don't know if it was a lawyer or someone to look into her mother's background. And what they found was that actually one of her owners had manumitted Harriet, the mother, already. So it was in the will, but it had never been executed. And not only Harriet, the mother, was supposed to be manumitted.

Each child at the age of 45 was also supposed to gain their freedom. So the system had failed. She was. Yeah, she was meant to be free. Her mom was meant to be free. And yet still there she is. No, no, we'll keep this actually. I mean, they can't read. So they'll never know. Exactly. Yeah. Right. And so, actually. I mean, they can't read, so they'll never know. Exactly. Yeah. Right. And so that becomes, I think, a really...

It's almost like slavery's unfair somehow, isn't it? Yeah, right. Jesus. I'm sure that was like family lore. That's why she must have looked into it, because she's like, look, I know. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So, I mean, her story is tragic. This is a comedy show. Let's move on to a slightly cheerier subject, at least vaguely cheerier. Her escape. How does she get out of slavery? If she's not going to be freed by the law, which she rightfully should have been, how does she get away? Like her and Abraham Lincoln are just driving spikes and garlic into all the slave-owning vamp. I don't know.

I hope it happened. I mean, me too. That's a really great story. Right. So, like, let's not forget she has a husband. So when she decides to leave, she's leaving a lot behind. She marries later than most enslaved women at 24. She was in her 20s when she married me. Yeah.

At 24, meets a young guy named John. He gets no love in the historical record for reasons I'll get to in a moment. So he's John Tubman. John Tubman. Right. And so this, upon their marriage, she changes her name to Harriet. So she actually escapes twice. So the first time around September 17th, 1849, she and her brothers go away. And one of the big kind of impetuses for this escape is that their owner passes away and they are transferred to the property of his widow.

But the owner has a large amount of debt. And so they're really concerned that they're all about to be sold. And actually she does start to make moves to sell relatives. So she and the brothers, they leave in the night. They're gone for about two weeks when the brothers start to have second thoughts.

And they also have left behind wives and children. And so not only do they turn around, they make Harriet come back. Oh, wow. They're like, you've got to come home. Well, I guess if they think, oh, the punishment's going to be meted out on our wives and our children and everything,

we all have to go back if we don't, yeah. Right. So they go back, and then Harriet stays for a very short time, but a couple of days later, around October 3rd, she leaves again. Yeah, she's like, I'm not doing this. And she leaves by herself this time.'s like, I'm not doing this. And she leaves

by herself this time. She doesn't take anyone with her. And she is, one of her earlier jobs had been as a lumberjack. Wow. Right, so the... Was this, wait,

like, was this when she was like seven? Like, when did this happen? Like a child with a massive axe. Child, minor, five, you know, doing entertaining. So probably her teens, like early adulthood, she worked as a lumberjack with her father. So she was able to be farmed out.

So she works as a lumberjack. She's five foot tall and she's wielding an axe. Wielding an axe outside. They're basically training a revolutionary and they don't realize it the whole time. I mean, once you hit her in the face and she's in constant pain and disabled, she has literally nothing left to lose. She's like a superhero then, isn't she? Yeah, pretty much. Like you are in the making of like an X-Man, basically.

Yeah. Right. So that position allows her to really learn the land. And she understands the kind of topography of her area. And so one of the kind of guiding, you know, things that she's able to use is the North Star, which she follows at night. And so she does a lot of her walking at night and moving, hiding towards the day. But also it's an infrastructure of AIDS, a large Quaker population in the area who help her give her solace, send her to different points. So this is the kind of underground

railroad, right? She's benefiting from that. And it's not just, right, white, you know, Quakers or anti-abolitionists, right? This is also a network of other free blacks. Maryland has a sizable population of free black people at the time, too, who are also helping. So this is a biracial system. And this eventually stretches all the way up to Canada, does it not?

Yes. Yeah, because there are a lot of black people in Canada who, you know, is descendants. Right. So we anywhere between one week to three weeks, it takes her. She's doing a lot of that journey on foot, 90 miles to Philadelphia. Right. She's the original Forrest Gump. Just keep on walking. Just keep running.

Yeah. So she makes it to Philadelphia where she sets up a life for herself as a kind of cook. She had this, you know, from her mother, who was also a really notable cook. And that's where she builds out networks from other abolitionists and starts to kind of plan so she can return. So that's I mean, that's the extraordinary thing. So she gets out and that in itself is commendable. But now she's going to go back in, back across the Mason-Dixon line, back across enemy territory almost, isn't it? Right. Incredibly brave.

Do you know why she feels she has to do that? Is it just simply that it's the right thing to do or is that the kind of the purpose of the Underground Railroad? That once they get you out, they ask you to go back in? No, I think that when the many of the abolitionists, when they met her and were speaking to her, I think they were really surprised that they had in her someone who was willing to put herself on the line that way. But also, too, it wasn't just for any old body. The reason she went back was for her family.

She, you know, especially being in Philadelphia, realizing that if she's, if her whole family isn't free, then she can't really be free or it felt somehow wrong to be enjoying the fruits of that freedom. So did she go back every time, pick up a face like, ah, you're not my sister.

Ah, forget it. Come on, let's just go. Quickly. Well, she also, so she went back for sisters, for brothers, but also too, she would take kind of,

you know, like your play cousins, who you call your brothers. And then everybody's like, oh, but also, too, she would take kind of, you know, like your play cousins, who you call your brothers. And then everybody's like, oh, but what about my friend? What about this girl I really like? Like, come on, Harriet. Right, right. But one of the first time she, one of the first few instances she tries to go back, she wants to bring her husband. She wants to bring John. She even buys a suit, according to one of Sarah Bradford to so that he can look good yeah when he comes back

yeah but by this time john has moved on he's wait how much time has passed about two years whoa come on i mean did he know when she was running away wait a second so she the second time she ran away this is like that october she's like nah never mind this right she's already married at that point she decides like nah i can't do this, right? She's already married at that point. She decides, like, nah, I can't do this. So, like, does he take that personally? Like, it's got something to do with him? Like, she came back and was like, nah, never mind. He's like, oh, well, guess I wasn't enough for Harriet then.

Well, he says he's not going. Like, he won't go with her the first time. And also, too, he doesn't have the impetus to go. So one of the things is important important John Tubman is a free person Oh, so he's like he's chillin. I'm not gonna go somewhere and accidentally get slaved again, right? and so I think he's facing a different type of Confinements and and now I think that situation was a big hurdle for their marriage anyway Cuz you know any children would have followed her conditions and he he doesn't. They most likely didn't live together.

Yeah. If at all or consistently. And so. And at this point, she's a little bit more married to God anyway. So, yeah, I can see him being like, I'm a just dip. Right. And so the suit ends up going to another guy who she saves. Good honor.

And you'll fit this. Yeah. All right. Right. Right. So that would be. I'm going to do that right now. Just go out and buy a suit that looks nice and just walk around and be like, yep, you're mine. Come on, let's go. So, yeah, so she saves several, several people are able to benefit from that through all kinds of clever things that she's doing. So how many does she save? Because the internet gets very excited.

It's like it's either two or 11 billion people. Harriet Tubman, savior of 11,000 people. You're like, no, no. That's a lot of walking. Yeah, I mean, that's a lot of suits. How many has she saved during that sort of decade of? 11 to 13 trips, saving 70 people, maybe somewhere closer to 100? It's hard to know. It's pretty good. It's really good. I mean, why do you have to embellish that? Exactly.

But I mean, like historically, people, especially kids are not going to be like they're like only 100 people. That's how many people are in this classroom right now. Now, you know, like you have to kind of go like I mean, it's 11 trips on foot, you know, between like let's look at these states and realize how big they are. And like she can't do this during the daytime and just walk around and she's sneaking people out. You can't sneak out 50 people in one go. I mean, it's very difficult. And I also, you know, think, too, in terms of thinking about the work that she's doing. Right. It's under like really dangerous conditions. And she you know, she's doing right it's under like really dangerous conditions and she you know she's doing all these things but one of the great things too about and before she would make a trip she'd cultivate funds she'd have to get

a money order like feed people and get them passage in certain ways on certain forms of right yeah and she was according to all accounts very careful that anyone she took she could feed and care for. Yeah. That was one of the kind of central things. Of course. Like, if you came with me, you're safe. And so I think that, you know, might have had something to do with it as well.

Yeah. Pack lunch for 300 people. Right. That's a lot of sandwiches. Every single time you're risking death for yourself and all the people you're trying to save. So you really have to be careful and plan it all. Right.

But she was also one of the, you know, the greater things and knock on effects of those trips was she was sharing information with people. So we also believe that several dozen people also for themselves escaped through knowledge.

Just followed the list of like, turn left at the Burger King. This is what you do. So she was married the first time to John Tubman, where she gets the surname, but he stays behind. So, second husband? So much later, she meets a former Union soldier who's actually a boarder in her house named Nelson Davis,

and they marry and adopt a little girl named Gertie. So she does lead this not completely domesticated life, but she does have a love and a family in her later life, which is quite beautiful. She's a working mom, complete hero. Yes. And she's an American hero in the sort of military capacity as well. She's doing it all. Yes, yes. And this is around the time that she takes up her feminist work as well. So when and this is around the time that she takes up her feminist work as well. But unfortunately, Nelson's very poorly.

He suffers from tuberculosis. And so she even though he's a bricklayer and they for a small time run a business together, she also has to take up a lot of that responsibility as well. So that's a kind of lumberjack bricklayer nurse cook doing it all independent. Yeah. Narcoleptic spy. I mean, it's one hell of a career. Doing it all. Narcoleptic spy. I mean, it's one hell of a career, isn't it? Narcoleptic. That does sound like a Roan Atkinson film, though, right? It does.

Desiree, have you heard about her tactical chicken? I did not know that she had tactical chicken. It sounds delicious. I would like to know what goes into tactical chicken. It's not southern fried. It's not. She hasn't cooked it yet. I like to think it's like spicy and extra lean and full of like lots of good things.

Maybe later on. Michelle, can you tell us about how she confused people by holding chickens? Like squeezing them? Making them make noises? Well, she had several tactics employed. So she would deploy disguises. Yes. I just like I thought of a bunch of slaves

wearing monocles and the mustache. She's like, who did this? Yeah. Well, there are some reports that she would, you know, because she was known to be illiterate, pretend to read to kind of obscure her face or things like that. But on one instance, she was in a market

and was in close proximity, about to come into contact with one of her former masters. And so she kind of launches a chicken out and pretends to follow it causing like this big ruckus um and he never gets a chance to to see her and so she's able to kind of make a clean getaway but i mean not just from the disguises um one of the most clever things is her use of songs so she loved music um and so when they're traveling during the day uh especially uh singing certain songs to let them know that like danger's afoot or like when I sing the song twice, you know that you can come out or things like that. Or particular songs like Go Down Moses was a big one that she liked to sing. And so she had things. She was doing stuff. She had a tactical kind of repertoire. She's smart, isn't she? I mean, she's whip smart and she's brave.

Yes. But she's also five foot carrying a chicken. I mean, you don't necessarily know to look for her. Well, yeah, you can use that sort of general invisibility of being a slave woman to your advantage all of a sudden. I mean, I think especially if you're that moment when you're a five-year-old kid meant to take care of other sick kids and entertain them, keep them from crying, and you realize that you don't ever get to be a kid because you are always working,

that distance that you constantly have from everything in life makes you very insightful because you're constantly looking to get to a place where you're like, well, this isn't going to do. So we're going to have to get to some place that will. And so you're always looking for ways around because the way through is never going to be for you. Right. Not all of her tactics are totally ethical. I mean, how does she keep children quiet?

Oh, yes. So this is probably one of the more controversial. And so she uses Lanodum, which is a kind of derivative of opium. And she soaks it in bread. And so she uses lanodum, which is a kind of derivative of opium. And she soaks it in bread. And so feeding the babies bread keeps them very sedated during the daytime hours. So they're basically on smack. I'm finding it real hard to look askance. I want your baby to be free.

Your baby gets to be high while we go and travel through the night. I don't see a problem with it. The end justifies the means. Presumably she carries a firearm. Yes, she does. So she carries a pistol. And right. So you touched upon this as well. Right. But the way in which if anyone turns around, if you slow down, if you lose your nerve, the whole program is under threat. So she had to force some people to not like, it's like, you're going to screw this up for everybody. So you get in line and you march. So she's going in, she's rescuing people, between 70 and 100 people are coming out, which is an extraordinary thing. And there's also this idea, the Internet gets excited, the idea of a ransom.

So if you go online, the Internet will tell you there's a big ransom on her head, 40,000 bucks, which now is millions of dollars. But that doesn't seem true, does it? Because they don't really know who they're hunting. Right. And that's really the great thing. And especially the name change is very fortuitous because, like, you know, in terms of thinking about, like, when she has so many monikers by this time. But, yeah, they don't know that the ransom, that amount is actually a fabrication that was started to help Harriet. At least that's kind of speculation.

So an abolitionist, Sarah Holly, starts this rumor kind of in the 1860s as a way to garner support for Harriet. And so her argument was, look how much slave catchers are willing to pay for her. Surely you can give to help her process, her program, and what she's doing. Because she continues working to make the funds to fund her rescues.

But also she is battling hardships throughout her life. And so this rumor... There's a whole marketing machine behind her now as she's becoming more successful. And they're like, oh, we make you seem like a badass. Then all of a sudden people are going to want to give their money toward you. So the only evidence we have for a ransom... Actually,

do you want to guess how much it is, Desiree? How much do you think? I mean, okay, so $40,000 exorbitant. Let's say $10,000. Yeah. A little bit lower. Really? $8,000? $100,000? Yeah. A little bit lower. Really? $8,000? $100. What?

That's it? Oh. Because that's what her master, her owner, initially paid, was willing to pay to get it back. He's like, I just want my money back. That's it. I just want my slave back. Yeah.

And she was, because, you know, he didn't know. And then, of course, 1861, we have the American Civil War. So the country splits in half. Lincoln is the president of the North, the Union. But the South decide they're going to have their own president. Yes, Jefferson Davis. Jefferson Davis. But Harriet Tubman steps into the war. Yes. But not initially as sort of like heroic Harriet Tubman.

She's a nurse. What is she doing? She's a nurse. She's a washerwoman. She's a cook. So what happened? A lumberjack. A lumberjack. What else do you need? Yeah, right. So one of the first places where she makes her kind of interest is Fort Monroe in Virginia.

And so what happens when war breaks out, you have several slaves who are leaving plantations. They're trying to take refuge with Union soldiers. But the position from Lincoln and his, you know, kind of generals and advisors is that the Union can't take these people because that's going to agitate the Southerners and we're going to kind of, you know, complicate the kind of reunification. But General Benjamin Franklin Butler says because of war amendments that allow you to take property of like the kind of rebel side, we can take property. Right. And they get the name contraband. So you're contrabands of war, these enslaved people. And so they create basically a colony at Fort Monroe of like, you know, hundreds and hundreds of enslaved

people. And the idea is that, well, they need skills, they need education, they need food and clothing. And so they call on abolitionists, right, and other bodies to kind of come South and help. And so Harriet is one of the first northern free blacks to come south. And she teaches the women how to wash and launder so that they can have kind of wage labor skills once the war is over. So it's amazing. And in 1863, President Lincoln passes the Emancipation Proclamation, which one of my favorite ever jokes in the South Park movie is that it's a hip hop band.

What is that? It's a hip-hop band. What does that mean for Harriet? Right, so the Emancipation Proclamation is a really important turning point for so it applied it was a you know a decision that would free the slaves but only in those territories that had succeeded. So if you were in a kind of border state and you that didn't succeed, right, slavery was still technically legal. Right. So the states that hadn't left. The states that hadn't left could still have slavery. And so that's a kind of knock on thing that you start to get sorted in the later years of the war. But for this immediate point, so like places like Georgia, Alabama, South Carolina, those slaves are free. And it has a really great effect of bringing people to the Union cause.

So they're free, they can join the war effort. And this really opens up the opportunity of exploiting that knowledge that they have on the local areas. And so the, you know, the Union cause really gets a big push off the back of the Emancipation Proclamation because it gives all these troops to the cause. And you see Harriet Tubman enter as this military leader, which is really great. So, you know, when we get the Combahee River Raid and she's... Okay, so let's hear about it. So she's the first woman in American history to lead troops in battle. But the Combahee River Ra raid is like this great success.

Do you know anything about it, Desiree? No, I don't know about this at all. All right. So, Michelle, can we have a quick summary then? Yes. So thinking about the Combahee River, it is a kind of like water passageway. But during the war, it was booby trapped with all kinds of bombs, explosives, basically. war it was booby-trapped with all kinds of bombs explosives basically um and so very dangerous for the union soldiers and who wanted to make it in in um down to the river uh because that's where

the the confederacy was holding things like there are lots of slaves but also there are goods and you know so she leads starts this kind of spy network of working with other enslaved people in the area of trying to understand like where the booby traps are so that the union boats and so like under the cover of darkness right on it on a night these three steamboats go down the river and they're navigating and she's at the lead she's at the helm with um you know the kind of a general and they're leading around all of the booby traps. And so they get to the docks safely.

Their soldiers go out. They root out the Confederate opposition. They kind of take them out, and then they tell all the people, come, like, you know, to the boats. We're going to save you. It's great. But they also, right, it's a tactical success

because they burn down everything they can't take, and they, you know, they take all the goods and things but um 750 people liberated wow and she plays a role not just in the kind of tactical aspect of it but there's a point where right the people get a little agitated and concerned because like they want to go and there are these rowboats that are so you know she pulls out that pistol. She's like, like I said. Don't make me shoot you. Yeah, she actually sings to them and it calms them and it lets them because, you know, they're really they're so scared that the boats are going to leave them. And so she sings a song that they all know and they sing back to her. And so things get calm and then the boats are able to kind of go back and forth and do what they need to do. But all of those people think about it.

You wake up that day. You're a slave. You go to bed. You are what they need to do. But all of those people, like, think about it. You wake up that day, you're a slave, you go to bed, you are a free person. Yeah. I guess that's where those numbers start to get inflated because, I mean, she did wind up freeing so many other people throughout her life. Yeah, so 750 there plus the 100 before.

I mean, we're pushing 1,000. It's pretty impressive. Lincoln is assassinated. Spoiler alert, sorry. And the war is won by the Union. What happens to Harriet after the war? Is she a national hero? Is she, you know, are people knocking the Combahee raid in the immediate aftermath. And that is successful in terms of getting some monies for her cause. Also, too, she never kind of comes out of that poverty, though.

She continues to have to work. And one of the really ironic, not tragic things. So when she's leaving, she's taking a train from, I believe, like Maryland up to New York. She's taking a train from, I believe, like, Maryland up to New York. And she is violently ejected from the train by a conductor who is agitated that she's traveling on a pass for the military. So he's not recognizing her service. So her arm is broken, she's fractured several ribs.

Well, I mean, he throws her from a moving train. Right. Or he throws her from one car to the next, right, with all these supporters, but there is, like, this threat that he will eject her from like physically from the train itself. It's a sort of Rosa Parks moment. But but it's like a step on, isn't it? Right. It's not recognizing what she's done for the nation. Right. Right. And it's true for a lot of black soldiers. America's history of like fought and some have died and they're like, why can't I be treated like a human? I've served this country multiple times over. Right. And so this really bitter moment.

But also thinking about someone whose parents, she has elderly parents that she's taking care of. Her brothers, we know from the letters, were really dependent upon her. The primary breadwinner is now incapacitated. And so she's laid up for weeks, right? primary breadwinner is now incapacitated. And so she's laid up for weeks. Right. And so that is just an example of just the ongoing economic hardships that she continues to have to work to live on just on the edges of survival. She does have benefactors who step in from time to time, but it's a really precarious position. She never reaches the type of comfort that you think someone who would have. Well, I i mean but that's really true for so

many people in uh black america especially it's kind of like it's one you've grown up with struggle understanding that you know and that kind of and then the minute you get success there are so many people in your family who are depending on you to help out in certain places right that that you know it's not like there's anything to build on it's always like there's somebody else that needs to be taken care of the minute you're incapacitated like everything crumbles again can you guess how many years it takes for her to get her war pension i mean oh god i mean i'm war ends in 1865 yeah i'm imagining it's something horrific like i'd be surprised if she got it and it wasn't like some descendants so many years later you know like i'm i'm amazed that they actually um paid out while she was still alive let's say i don't know maybe it covered her funeral costs like i don't know 20 years it's 30 years yeah

yeah like right at the end of the the 19th century she finally gets it and what's interesting so she was receiving a ration initially, but she gave it up because she was worried about the impression that she was receiving preferential treatment. So during the war itself... It plagues us still. It's like, what, you mean your pay? Right, right.

For doing what nobody else could do? And like for going down a river that was booby trapped that no one else would go down and just being like, I'll sort it out. No worries. Right. So during the war, she gets about $200. So towards the end, she's actually starts to petition the government for her back pay. And she wants about $700, which is still less than what a spy would have earned.

And so that's denied. She's not able to get any. On what grounds? I'm just on just like now you're still a bit slavy. Sorry. Bye. So I so probably as well, but also to the type of work that she did was clandestine. And so they can just sort of go like, behalf, who wrote documents. And that was really the cornerstone of theirs. So when she receives her wage benefit, it wasn't like a random bureaucrat in an office who was like, you know what, we're going to do good by Harriet Tubman. It was a congressional order. So like they sat around Congress to discuss this and then somebody had to be

like, okay, it's official. Right. Yeah. And, and even then the, the decision was so acrimonious that she requested $25.

But it was reduced to $20 as a kind of concession. Per year. Per year. Yes, it's hardly. If her ransom's $40,000, according to the internet, $20 a year. Even $20 in this day and age still doesn't sound like enough. So like even $20 in this day and age still doesn't sound like enough. And the gendered narrative of that, which is interesting, is that she gets widow's benefits before she's able to get her own benefits as a spy and soldier and participator in the war.

Because she was a wife. Yes. Yeah. A wife rather than a soldier. Right. Yeah. So she doesn't have much money, but at the end of her life, she still gives land to a church and opens a sort of an old people's home. Yes. So throughout her life, she really took care of like the indigent orphans, the elderly. And so that the National Association of Colored Women raises these funds, as well as African Methodist Episcopal Church to start this home for that's named in her honor for aged people.

to start this home that's named in her honor for aged people. And what's so amazing, during a couple years before she dies herself, she's a resident in this home. So that's where she kind of lives her last days, which I think is just... So she's Harriet Tubman in the Harriet Tubman return home. Do you think she was sort of pretty badass about it? She's like, it's named after me. By the way, I'll do what I like. This is my house. Well, there's that one photo of her, right?

Like one of the last photos before she died. I just feel like she looks like a vision. Like she just looks so like in her wisdom and she looks fabulous. But she's at that home, which I think is amazing. And she hasn't suffered enough. But she also has brain surgery with no anesthetic. Yes. Really?

She can't use some of that opium for herself? That's intense. She does have this brain surgery to try to kind of fix some of these effects. I just remembered what no anesthetic means. So she's awake, like face down on a massage table. And probably had some grain alcohol, but that would have been... Yeah, but that's nothing. She's biting down on a bullet, isn't she?

Yeah. Which she's seen soldiers do in the Civil War. So, I mean, this is a lady who has been brutalized her whole life, and she is still going at 91 or 90. Incredible. She died at 90, 91? 91, I think. Wow.

In her own home, named after her. Yeah, yeah. It's a phenomenal life. The nuance window! It's phenomenal life. The nuance window! This is where we allow our experts to go to town on whatever it is they want to say. Do you want to tell us in your nuance window about Harriet Tubman and the idea of her as an icon?

Yes, thank you. So the scholar Kansania Wise Whitehead, she said what I think is the most beautiful thing about Harriet Tubman. And she says, quote, she was more than what we talk about, but a little less than what we try to pretend that she people. And she worked within that in ways that were ingenious and clever and novel to assert her identity and that of many other people. And I think this kind of effort to mythologize her and to build her up more than she, she was enough, right? Just how she was, she was enough. But with that being said, I do think that there's different ways that we should think about her. Her absence in feminist scholarship, I think, is crazy. And thinking about her presence in important feminist movements, I think black women consciousness, but female consciousness in the 19th and 20th century,

is an unprecedented contribution. And we deserve to remember her for that. Awesome. Thank you so much. Desiree, if you've got a follow-up point on that, is there anything you want to say regarding that? Just word. Absolutely. Just word. as far as human beings personhood is concerned. And also just a lot of times because we mythologize someone like Harriet Tubman, she loses her femaleness.

You know, she's black, therefore she's just black. She may as well be a man or an animal or whatever you want to reduce that to because, you know, she is a lot more than that. And also the fact that she has the nuance of humanity, like it is important to know that like, you know, she did these incredible things and she navigated a booby trap pervert, but then she was also con by con man as an older lady. Like, you know, that means that she's a

human being, you know, she, you know, was like, well, my husband ran off. I'm just going to give the suit to this guy. He seems fine. Like those stories, even if they aren't necessarily showing that person in a positive light, show them as a person. And I think it's very important for us to remember that all people are just complex beings and we can do some incredible things and also do some very small, childish and or horrible things. And we have to live with two truths being able to coexist because that is the world that we live in. That's the humanity we embody. That is much too profound for a comedy show. Layers. We're complicated. We're layers. Someone mentioned bums. She's dope. Everybody suck it. She is. I mean, she's a fascinating woman.

So what do you know now? She's a fascinating woman. So what do you know now? Desiree, it's time really for the section we call So What Do You Know Now? Which is a little quiz to see how much you've picked up along the way. Now clearly you've picked up some wisdom. This is going to be like my memory of movies where I remember how they made me feel

and I'll be like, that was about friendship. But if you're like, remember when he walked in and said nope no I don't specifics dates nope all right but let's bring it feels is fine I'm okay with fields all right so 60 seconds on the clock okay here we go question number one yeah what was Harriet Tubman's real birth name uh a minta or emin yeah something with mint in the middle aramaminta Ross. Araminta Araminta. Sounds like a soul singer. I love it. Yes, it's great. In which state did she grow up? Oh, why? Come on. Oh, Maryland.

Yes. How old was she when she had her skull fractured? Twelve. Yes. Very good. What was the name of her first husband? John Tubman. Yes.

How many people did she free, we think, on the Underground Railroad? Around like 78, 80, something around that? 70 is good, yeah. How many return trips did she make to liberate them? 11. Yes. What was her threatening motto with a pistol in hand when people thought they might turn back?

Live free or die a slave. That's it. How many people did she liberate during the Combahee River Raid? 750? Pretty much. How long did it take for the government to give her her pension? 30 years. 30 years.

Poor shame. Poor shame. And where did she die? In which building? Oh, she died in the Harriet Tubman house for aged people. She literally did. 10 out of 10. Ding, ding, ding.

Yes. Nailed it. Yes, yes. So you've learned feels and facts. Yes. I passed the third grade I should have been in. Whenever we learn about Harriet Tubman. We learn about her like every year in elementary school,

but it was just like the same three things over and over. And you're like, yeah, I got it. This is so much better. Well, I hope you've enjoyed learning about Harriet Tubman. Absolutely. I've enjoyed learning about her. One hell of a woman. Before we go.

We have a Harriet Tubman merch? Like I want that. Yeah, I mean, we should all get hats. There is a shirt. I think it just says, nah. No, no, I think it just says, nah. No, no. I think that's Rosa Parks. But I think she has a shirt.

Do you have a shirt? There's a pop culture shirt. I mean, Live Free or Die a Slave is a pretty timeless motto. That's a good one. It does sound like a rap album. It's a pretty good, I mean, it's a cool sort of motto to have. Join me next time for more fascinating and hopefully fun history with two more excellent guests.

If you've enjoyed the show, please share it online, tell your friends, leave a review. Make sure to subscribe. The show is called You're Dead to Me. Very subtle. But for now, let me say a huge thank you to my guests, Dr. Michelle Cressfield and Desiree Birch. And to you, fair listener, I bid you a fond farewell. Till next time. Bye.

You're Dead to Me was a Muddy Knees media production for BBC Radio 4. The researcher was Emma Neguse and the producer was Dan Morrell. Hello, it's Sophie Duker. Heidi Regan. Ned Sedgwick here. We've been given 30 seconds to tell you why Grown-Up Land is the podcast that will change your life for the better. Why you'll be healthier, happier, more culturally enriched and totally confident about everything in every way. But there is a small snag, as none of that is true at all.

What you will become is confident that everyone else is just as confused, frustrated and anxious as you are. Every week we're joined by a brilliant guest to talk about things like sex, fear, rejection, jealousy, sex and we often end up sharing way too much about our personal lives. Yeah, I should really rein that in. That's Grown-Up Land, the podcast about the exhausting pursuit of adulthood. Make sure you subscribe on BBC Sounds.