You're Dead to Me - Hernán Cortés and Malintzin (Radio Edit)

Episode Date: June 13, 2025

Greg Jenner is joined in 16th-Century Mexico by Dr Amy Fuller and comedian Jen Brister to learn about Spanish conquistador Hernán Cortés and his translator Malintzin.In 1521, the powerful Aztec empire was brutally conquered by the Spanish, led by the ambitious and fanatical Hernán Cortés. After a falling-out with his boss in Cuba, Cortés disobeyed orders and led an expedition party into Mexico. He was helped in his conquest by local peoples who bore a grudge against the Aztecs, chief amongst them the woman who became his translator: Malintzin. A skilled linguist, Malintzin was given to Cortés upon his arrival in Mexico, but after gaining her freedom was central to Cortés’s success. The two even had a son together.This episode tells the story of Cortés and Malintzin before, during and after the conquest, exploring how an Indigenous woman came to translate for a conquistador. From Malintzin’s murky childhood to Cortés’s desperate attempts to impress the king of Spain, via the rumours that he killed his first wife and the complicated politics of Mexico, we examine these two intertwined lives.This is a radio edit of the original podcast episode. For the full-length version, please look further back in the feed.Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Aida Abbashar Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: James Cook

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. deal ratings and price history, so you know a great deal when you see one. That's cargurus.ca. Cargurus.ca. Oh, oh hi! I'm Mel Gedroych and I'm going to be your host on… Well, there's a wink, there's a wink, there's a wink. So each week I'm going to be meeting with a different deceased celeb guest to discuss how they died, what they want for their funeral and perhaps most importantly why I should be unlocking the pearly gates for them. You'll laugh, you probably won't cry but bloody

hell you'll be entertained. Listen and watch wherever you get radio podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. Today we are sharpening our language skills and sailing across the Atlantic to 16th century Mexico to learn all about the conquistador, Hernan Cortés and his indigenous translator, Malintzin. And to help us understand this pair, we have a pair of very special guests. In History Corner, she's senior lecturer in the history of the Americas at Nottingham Trent University. Her research focuses on early modern Spain and Mexico, specifically religion, identity

and empire. It's Dr Amy Fuller. Welcome Amy. Thanks for having me. Delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, she's a stand-up comedian, actor and writer. You'll have seen her on all the TV shows, including Live at the Apollo, Mock the Week, Frankie Boyle's New World Order. Perhaps you've seen her on tour or read or listened to her hilariously honest memoir, The Other Mother, I Love the Audiobook, or her podcast, WTB, which I think is short for a slightly ruder title. And you'll definitely remember her from our episode on Emma of Normandy, an absolute classic. It's Jen Brister. Welcome Jen. Oh Greg, it's an absolute

pleasure. We had a lot of fun last time in medieval England trying to remember that everyone was called Elf Givu. Oh my god, what a name, Elf Givu. And not only that, not understand or not having any knowledge about my own history, like that is quite something now I'm half I'm half English I'm half Spanish so I've what I've realized is in the last episode I knew nothing about English history and today it will be proven I know nothing about Spanish history and Mexican history Mexican history even less okay so what do you know So, what do you know? This is the So What Do You Know? Where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's

subjects. I'm guessing you've heard the name Cortes, the Conquistador. He's appeared in all kinds of TV shows and films, most notably as the big baddie in the DreamWorks animation The Road to El Dorado. But unless you are Mexican or maybe American, I suspect Melinson. I imagine she's perhaps a lot less familiar as a name. She's the subject of several Spanish language plays, operas and books and appears in some famous murals, one painted by Diego Rivera. In Mexico City, he was the husband of Frida Carlo.

Oh, yes, I do know who he is. Look at me, one point already, well done. But how have their reputations changed over time and what exactly is Moctezuma's revenge? Let's find out. We'll start with Cortes purely because he happened to be born first. So Amy, who was he? Is he an aristocrat? You know, when he's born is he rich? He was born in 1485 in Medellín, which is in Extremadura in Spain.

So he was a Hidalgo. He was petty nobility, we'd probably call him. Not very rich. We don't know a massive amount about him, to be honest. We think he probably had some legal training. Fairly well educated, I'd say. But in 1492, Hernán Cortés is seven years old, Columbus sails on behalf of the Spanish king and queen

in search of India and bumps into what's called the New World, inverted commas. It's obviously not new to the people who live there. So what makes Hernán Cortés decide he wants to follow in Columbus' wake? Because 10, 12 years later, he's on a ship. Yeah, he's off to seek his fortune in the New World. He arrives in 1504, so he's 19,

and he goes off to a place called Hispaniola, which is now Haiti and the Dominican Republic. At that point, that's the base of operations in what they called the Indies. And the indigenous people that lived in Haiti and in the Dominican Republic, would they have had any sort of relation to the Incas or, like, Mexico is not that far away. Were they more similar to…? They had smaller towns, so you don't find the kind of big cities with the pyramids and things like that in the Caribbean, but you do see decent sized kind of towns, but they were supposed to go and convert them to Christianity and therefore they shouldn't have been allowed to enslave

them, but they just kind of enslaved them instead. It happens. You pop out there to talk about Jesus Christ and before you know it, you've got, you know, hundred thousands of slaves. Yes. Well, she probably turns to Melinson. In 1504, Cortés is 19 years old. Melinson is a toddler at this point. Yeah. So we think she was born in 1500. OK. We don't really know much about her or her early life.

We think that her father was of some kind of nobility, but we think that her mother was enslaved. She's now her, so she's from central Mexico, but she's not Aztec, that's quite important. She's from an area that gets taken over by the Aztecs, it's kind of on the Gulf Coast. She's sold into slavery with the Maya essentially when she's a young girl we think. She lives among the Maya for quite a time. And we don't even know her real name right? We know her bio later. We only know her baptismal name which was Marina and Melinson comes from that because there's no R in Nahuatl so they would hear Malina but but they put the Zin at the end, which is

an honorific title. So that is essentially Donya Marina in Nahuatl. So Malinsin, she is Nawa. She's not Maya and she's not Aztec. Yes, no. So it's from a different group entirely. And the Nawa people are... So they are... Who? Basically everyone who lives in the central region of what's now Mexico so basically where the Aztec Empire was. In our heads I guess over here in the UK we know the Aztecs is like the dominant superpower of the region. Yes they rise to prominence in the 1420s they managed to create this

empire that's spreads from the Pacific to the Gulf Coast in a hundred years. But it's patchy and this becomes a problem later on. They don't conquer everywhere. It's a franchise? Is it like Starbucks? They're after tribute. They're after tribute. So both in terms of goods that they want, but also people for sacrifice so they essentially don't bother to conquer anyone who doesn't have what they want or is too difficult to conquer. Let's get back to Cortes, he's in Hispaniola so he's

not got to Mexico yet. No, no one has at this point. He's got a job. Yes. Is he a legal job? Yes So he's a notary for a while and then in 1511 he takes part in the conquest of Cuba Which was organized by Diego Velasquez who then becomes the governor of Cuba. Yes Initially Velasquez is very impressed by him. He becomes his secretary That's when Cortez starts to rise to prominence. And then in 1518, Felizquez gave him another promotion and this one is an expedition promotion. I want you to go and explore, conquer. Well, explore and trade was worthy orders.

The age old trade. Can you go and trade please? And where is he going? He's off to the Yucatan. There are two expeditions before Cortes's expedition and that's where they find out about this great city called Tenochtitlan and Moctezuma and lots of treasure and things. This obviously piques Cortes's interest. So despite the fact that there are other candidates who would be more experienced, Velasquez gives him the job to go on the next expedition.

So this is the third time, third time, and he's like, I've got a good feeling for you, Cortez. Yes, yes. Now, Velasquez starts to hear rumors that Cortez has plans that don't involve him. And so at the last minute Velásquez says no I don't want Cortes anymore. However Cortes kind of sticks his fingers in his ears and goes la la la la la. Oh really? And he evades arrest about four times I think. That's on the run. And yes, basically, finally sets off in 1519.

And he founds Vera Cruz, the first Spanish town in Mexico. He immediately divorces Velázquez from his sort of chain of command, right? He's just like, I founded a town and I answer to the Spanish king and Velázquez is dead to me and everything's fine. So how, war war but what about he's not coming back so much so that he burns the boats so that no one can go back. No way. Okay all right so his men are like

um I wanted to go back just to know a bit of feedback. I actually left my wife and children back there actually. He's like tough. No you're not going back. Okay. We know all about this from his first letter essentially. It's an amazing letter. It's not even a letter, it's like a rant. Yes, so he knows essentially that in the meantime Velasquez will have obviously written to the King and said, look, there's this complete wrong-un who's gone, you know, rogue, he's off, I don't even know what he's doing. And so Cortes knows all of this. He doesn't even make it a letter from him, he makes it a letter from the town

council of Veracruz. That he's founded. That he has founded. And essentially, it's an insane letter, but he essentially discredits Velázquez and then talks about how great he is, how he... Oh, I put all of my fortune into this. Every step of the way, I've done everything by the book. I've converted everyone to Christianity. A tiny bit of trivia that's completely unrelated to the history, but I love it, is that the

actor who voiced Cortez in the Road to El Dorado animation also was the voice of Winnie the Pooh. And so I'm just... I mean, that is upsetting. I'm just hearing the voice of Winnie the Pooh and so I'm just that is upsetting I'm just hearing the voice of Winnie the Pooh whenever Cortez speaks. Of course Winnie the Pooh craves pots of honey Cortez is after pots of money so he's off he's off seeking golden glory 1519 and he is going to meet Melintzin finally we get our meat cute except it's not a meat cute it's a meat yuck cute except it's not a meat cute it's a meat yuck because she is enslaved and he is arriving as a conqueror. Yes, so Melintzin is one of 20 girls I guess she's

only 19 given to the Spanish conquistadors by the Maya as a kind of diplomatic gesture. Right. She's a present initially. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We're not sure at what point it becomes clear that she has really useful linguistic abilities. Right. So how does the translation work then? You know, if Cortez wants to say something to the Maya. So she could speak Maya and Nwatl. So Cortez would speak to a guy called Hieronymus the Aguillard and he would then speak Maya to Melintzin and then she would speak Nwatl to any Aztecs. Ooh, it's just like a chain of... And then backwards, if the other way around.

You know that never works well, does it, with the old whispers. It's like, hang on a sec, I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. Yeah. But then she's got quite a lot of power. Because then she can translate anything in any which way she can. Yeah, that's interesting. Once, in a way. Like, oh yeah, he said this, did he?

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. We think she learnt Spanish quite quickly and actually Aguilard, he becomes almost obsolete quite early on. Not only can she tell people what he wants to say and vice versa, she also understands the etiquette which is incredibly different. So she understands the etiquette of the Spanish and she also understands the etiquette of the Mayan, is it the Mayan people? The other Nawa people.

The other Nawa people, right. The Maya too, but it's the Nawa people that are more important to the conquest. And Cortez is presumably using charm and violence, those two lovely combinations. Yeah, essentially he learns quite early on that the Aztec Empire isn't as solid as he thought it was, and he also learns that there are certain groups who aren't happy with the Aztecs. He gets the Totonacs onside initially by capturing an Aztec tax collector. And they're the most important allies

that he picks up are the Tlaxcalans. They hate the Aztecs, absolutely hate the Aztecs. I feel like the Spanish have arrived. There's not that many of them. No. They seem very annoying. They're going around telling people what to do. Oh, you can do that and I'll do that. And it's like, why don't they, the Tutenecs and the Mayans and everybody, they get together

and go, let's just kill these Spanish guys because they are a pain in the butt. And they keep talking about some guy called Jesus. I don't know who he is. What do you say? I mean, it seems like somebody missed a trick very early on. Yeah well the Tlaxcalans at one point it seems like the Tlaxcalans might actually finish them off. The Spanish really have to think about their tactics in order to not be killed basically. So we have to conquer Tenochtitlan, well we're not going to do it, Cortes is going to do it.

A vast, vast citadel, an incredibly sophisticated huge city, and 600 Spaniards show up and some allies. Yeah, with about 2,000 slash Calans probably. So about two and a half thousand people show up on the doors of this vast imperial citadel and they just, what, bring the doorbell and say hello we've come to conquer you so along the way obviously Moctezuma has heard about this he he has people all over his empire he can kind of go back and see the attack emperor yes we call it the Tlatwani is the the real word which means he who speaks but we tend to call him the Emperor. He has

spies that have told him about all of this, that they're these weird guys. Is he not like, we've got to do something about these guys. Yeah, well they set traps for them, which were intercepted by the Tashcallans, by Malintzin, they found out about things that were... Okay, so Cortez is about to step on various booby traps. Yeah, basically. they find out about things that were... Okay, so Cortez is about to step on various booby traps and Balintin's like, don't step on that, don't eat that, no that's not a fruit, that's a grenade. Moctezuma also sends people out with gifts and things.

Chocolate? Yeah, probably. Right, chocolate Moctezuma. But also gold, which is not... so in Aztec terms that's basically a show of power and it would have sent the message of back off, I've got all this power, but obviously... To Cortez he's like, these guys love us! They've given us gold, this is great! Ding dong!

Hi! And so we know that Moctezuma meets Cortez. Yes, yes on the causeway. And then suddenly the city falls. I mean, that's very truncated, but like. Yes, Moctezuma invites them into the city. So his idea, and he's been painted very badly for this, but there's a few reasons why he does this.

For a start, once they're in the city, they're at their mercy, they're their hosts basically so they can control them to a certain extent. Their weapons don't work quite as well either in the confines of the city but also Moctezuma would have been thinking well we can't have a battle kind of outside of the city because if it looks like we're losing everyone else is going to join. They're going to pile on. Oh right, they're going to control the narrative. Yes, so they first meet, it's November, so definitely by April, so they're there for ages. So November 1519, six months later.

So definitely by then but probably sooner. Cortez basically kidnaps Moctezuma and they have this very strange thing where Moctezuma is pretending that everything's fine because if he lets on, his people will essentially get rid of him and get the next Aztec Emperor. I mean have they not noticed there's something going on? Yes. A lot of Spanish guys around here. Well he pretends that they're just like at leisure together. It's very weird. This weird

situation where he's got hold of Moctezuma gets, it comes to an end because Cortes hears that Velasquez has finally got his together. Oh I forgot about him. You forgot about Velasquez. Yeah. And sent a massive army to arrest Cortes. So I think it's May, May of 1520 basically, Cortez hears he has to race off to the Gulf Coast. He manages to convince those guys to join him. Nice. He is very persuasive. He's a charmer. He is a charmer. In the meantime, he leaves a guy called Pedro de Alvarado in charge and we don't know if he does hear these rumours or not but his version of events is that he hears rumours that the Aztecs are going to attack them so they engage in a massive massacre basically.

And so Moctezuma appears on a terrace to convince his people to sort of calm down. Yeah. And then somehow he dies. Yeah, so... I'm sure his people killed him, like... His people aren't very happy with him, obviously. Yeah. Actually, Malinten also goes on the terrace and tries to convey these messages. The conquistadors' version of events is that he is hit with a slingshot and later dies

of his wounds. However, the indigenous version of events is that he gets stabbed basically by Cortes because he's no longer of any use basically. So that's the end of Montezuma. Cortes is now in control I think we can say. It's quite interesting because I didn't know, and this makes a lot of sense, that the Spanish had allies amongst other indigenous communities or people. I just assumed that all of the Aztecs were murdered by the conquistadors, like the Spanish, but they actually got help. Cortes then continues and Mexico is conquered by Spain and it becomes part of the Spanish Empire

and sends home all the silver and gold back to Spain. So that's sort of the conquest story and then Malintzin at this point has kind of done her job. No. So could she not just go, all right, job done, thanks very much, I'm off? She's so important that she becomes part of the conversion effort as well to begin with and she also is involved in other missions that Cortez goes on, like to Honduras, for example. So she's, yeah, she continues to be his right-hand woman.

I mean, they have a kid together, don't they? They do. We have no idea obviously how consensual that was, but they have a child called Martine. The interesting thing about Malinson is that sort of where the story ends, she dies quite young, she dies in 1529 when she's only barely 30, so that's quite sad and that's where we leave her in the story. Martín gets sent to Spain and actually lives with the Spanish royalty,

so he and Cortes formally recognises him as his son as well. Do we know how she died or? I think she just kind of succumbed, in the end got one of the many diseases that the Europeans so kindly brought over. And she was so young. She really only, in that whole period, was around for a decade.

Within that decade, she had such a huge influence. And I think when you're also a young woman and you've got literally no agency, you grab it where you can, don't you? You do. How does history view her? Do historians view her kindly? Not so much. No, well, historians, it depends on... So essentially we have the big, great,

great, I'm putting quotation marks around that, historian of the conquest, who's a Victorian, and the Victorians have a lot to answer for in terms of history being written, called William Prescott. He is the biggest Cortez fanboy. He is obsessed with Cortez. He does say she's important, but he also sexualises her quite a lot and talks about basically that her linguistic skills also included the language of love. I mean where's he getting that from? There's absolutely no evidence of that at all. Dirty old man. Yeah. So for a long time Cortes was viewed favourably for many centuries and would have been lauded

and applauded. Well this brings us to my next question actually Amy because for so long Cortes has been on the run from the Spanish authorities, people have been sending armies after him, but he finally conquers Mexico which means presumably he gets to go to the king of Spain hello this is yours because of me so do you want to let me off and give me a job? I mean does he get rewards? So yes he does he initially he becomes the governor of what they call new Spain which is what Mexico is called initially yeah he does get rewarded he also which is what Mexico's called initially. Yeah, he does get rewarded. He also makes sure to have his letters published very quickly. So they're all, I think there's five of them,

and they're all published by 1525. Just so his legacy is secure. He gets made governor of Mexico, but it doesn't always... He's too, he's too hot headed, isn't he? He can't just settle for something and go, this is fine, this is enough. No, he gets too big for his boots basically. He's been too big for his boots for about two decades. So yeah, so the king appointed investigator Ponce de Leon to come after him, strip some of his governorship in 1526. Yeah, so Ponce de Leon dies quite soon after he arrives. The second guy who is sent to investigate him also dies within like eight months. What are they dying from?

I think they're dying from Cortes, probably. Yeah, we don't know. Some people have said it might have been Cortes, but we're not 100% sure about that. But yeah, in 1528 Cortes goes back to Spain to talk to the king. He's well received, he's even given a title, he's removed from being the governor of New Spain, but he's given, he's made the Marquess of the Valley of Oaxaca. All of the men in this entire historical period. You're holding your eyes like you've got a migraine.

Absolutely appalling human beings. Despite us knowing all of this, Cortes is a hero. Well, I mean, he's constantly investigated, isn't he? They're constantly trying to investigate him for murder, for embezzlement, for not following orders. He is ruthless, he is avaricious, even the Spanish think that, but he gets away with it. How does he die in the end? Does Moctezuma get his revenge as the famous idiom would have it? Well, so he dies of, we think, pleurisy, but just before that he has a really bad case of dysentery.

Good! I mean, what a way to go. Yeah, it sounds like a horrible death and you know, couldn't have happened to a nice guy. Nice guy. Truly. Okay, so Pluracy is probably what killed him, but Disson tree probably didn't help. Okay, so there you go Jen. Hernan Cortes and Melinson. It's quite the story, isn't it? It is the story. It is quite the story. It's quite a sad story. It's tragic.

There's no part of it that isn't. He is genuinely one of the most unpleasant men in history, I would say. He's a truly awful human being. And sure, Melinson by proxy, you could say, yeah, but you know, she was no saint either. And that is absolutely true. But the power dynamic there was so, you know, you can't compare the two. You're looking at a young girl who was enslaved and was trying to survive.

And she wasn't to know how it was gonna turn out, you know, that it was gonna end up being some sort of genocidal mania. And then this Cortez guy was just like, total narcissist psychopath. Good guy. Good guy. Good guy. The Nuance Window! Time now for The Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Jen and I machete our way through the jungle for two minutes.

While Amy tells us something we need to know about Molinson. So my stopwatch is ready, you've got two minutes, take it away Dr Amy. So sadly after Mexico gained its independence from Spain in 1821, Molinson's public reputation went downhill. There was a desire to reclaim the history of the nation from the coloniser and to explain how the conquest happened, but unfortunately this led to her becoming a scapegoat. She's often referred to as the Mexican Eve, a traitor and a whore who portrayed her people despite the fact that she wasn't Aztec, nor did she have much agency of her own. Weirdly, the hundreds of thousands of Indigenous allies do not get blamed. They're presented as being tricked by Cortes into fighting against Moctezuma the Tyrant. Yet she is not awarded the same dispensation. However, as depressing as all that is, let's reflect on how she was viewed

by her contemporaries, largely because it's quite annoying for Cortes and his fanboys. So not only did the other conquistadors testify that she was absolutely fundamental to the conquest, so much so that they could not have achieved their victory without her, but the Tashcalans in their pictorial sources present her in every scene that Cortes features, even in amongst the fighting, like a real badass. And sometimes she's even depicted as bigger than him, basically insinuating that she was more important than him. And in fact, because she was always in Cortes's company, the indigenous people they spoke to referred to Cortes as the captain of Marina or Malinche. This not only demonstrates her importance to the native allies, but even better, it effectively demoted Cortes because he was

named in terms of his relationship with her. I actually am Team Balinson. I'm sure I didn't turn out great in the long term but I think she did what she had to do to survive. Listener, if you're bursting for more Brista, check out our episode on Emma of Normandy with all the Elf-Givus. For more Mexican history or famous interpreters, you can do the Aztecs episode, series one, the Sacajawea episode, or the Colombian exchange episode, which is about Columbus and after that fact.

And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with friends, subscribe to your Dead to Me on BBC Sounds, and also make sure to switch on your notifications so you never miss an episode. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we had the amazing Dr Amy Fuller from Nottingham Trent University. Thank you Amy! Thanks for having me, it was great fun.

And in Comedy Corner we had the brilliant Jen Brister. Thank you Jen! Oh what a delight, I've really enjoyed it and thank you Amy, I've learned a lot. And to you lovely listener, join me next time as we translate another overlooked historical story. But for now I'm off to write a long letter to the King of Spain blaming someone else for all of my failures. Bye! From BBC Radio 4 this is What Seriously? I'm Dara O'Brien. And I'm Izzy Suttie. And in our new series we're bringing you short stories and tall tales. What? Seriously? It's packed with real life strange but true stories that make you go What? Seriously? and provide you with excellent social ammo to impress your friends.

The twist is we don't know how each story unfolds and we'll have to figure it out one fragment at a time with our special guests who each have a mysterious connection to the tale. That's right. I am your spy expert. And I don't really want to bring you back to the real facts of the story because you're making me laugh so much, but I feel like I should. We're the only country in the world that ate the animal on our crest, like...

And I never know whether to feel terrible or brilliant about that. All these engineers trying desperately to reduce the amount of dust in space and you get Izzy taking up a balloon full of glycerin. Wow! You're welcome. Shut that one in the house. You're cool with all the stuff you're doing. I know, right? It's like I'm reading from a sheet or something, but no I haven't. Join us for… what, seriously? From BBC Radio 4, available now on BBC Sound.

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