You're Dead to Me - Jack Sheppard

Episode Date: August 21, 2020

Host Greg Jenner is joined by historian Dr Lena Liapi and comedian Stu Goldsmith in 18th century London to examine the life of infamous criminal, Jack Sheppard. From his early years in the workhouses of Spitalfields, we follow Jack from carpentry apprentice to infamous escape artist and renowned criminal as he became one of the earliest examples of London celebrity.

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Subscribe to Power Out on BBC Sounds. Power Out. Power Out. Power Out. Power Out. Power Out. Hello, and welcome to You're Dead to Me, a history podcast for everyone.

For people who don't like history, people who do like history and people who forgot to learn any at school. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. I'm the chief nerd on the BBC comedy show Horrible Histories. And you might have heard my kids podcast, Homeschool History. But this podcast is all about getting lol-tastic and scholastic with top-notch comics and super-smart historians. And today we are grabbing our lockpicks and our crowbars and we are travelling back to the 18th century, to London, to meet the celebrated criminal, prison-breaker extraordinaire and ultimate Jack the Lad, Jack Shepard. And to help me do that, I am joined by two very special guests.

In History Corner, she's a lecturer in early modern history at Keele University, and she's an expert in early modern criminals and print culture. It's Dr. Lena Liapi. Hi, Lena. How are you? Hi, Greg. I'm fine. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. We're enjoying the lockdown. You're in Greece at the moment. Yes, yes, I am. How's it going out there? It's nice. It's really, really hot right now, so it's getting a bit difficult, I think.

OK, well, stay indoors, air conditioning on. And in Comedy Corner, he's a hilarious stand-up. He's the host of one of my fave podcasts, The Comedian's Comedian. He's launched a new podcast with friend of the show, Sindhu V, called Child Labour, all about parenting, its joys and pitfalls. And, of course, you'll know him from the Blackbeard episode, one of my absolute faves. It's the wonderful Stu Goldsmith. Hi, Stu. Hello, hello.

Thanks for having me. It is a joy to be back. You've returned once again to... You're carving out a bit of a niche for 18th century criminals here. Yeah, I totally am. I'm absolutely thrilled. I don't know whether the numerous begging letters and bribes I've been sending have worked, but I absolutely love criminals. And I feel like the 18th century makes them safe enough to discuss

without needing to worry about dubious morals and ethical issues. Yeah, we don't have to cancel them, do we? Because they're quite far away. Does Jack Shepard ring a bell at all? I mean, Blackbeard, you knew a little bit about him, but Jack Shepard? I knew a little bit about Blackbeard. I know nothing about Jack Shepard, apart from he's got the sort of name I would read an airport novel about.

Like Jack Shepard. He's like one of those, he name I would read an airport novel about. Like Jack Shepard. He's like one of those, he sounds a bit Jack Reacher and a bit Jason Bourne. You know, a bit of a, you know, kind of a lonely J guy who gets stuff done himself where stuff is nicking vast quantities of things. I mean, Jack Reacher, famously six foot five. Jack Shepard, five foot four.

So maybe, not quite the same vibe. Okay, okay. Do you know that's where reacher got his name do you know that's why he called him jack it's true jack reacher because the author lee child um used to reach stuff down from high supermarket shelves for his wife and she'd call him reacher and and thus was born an incredibly simple that's disappointingly simple actually so what do you know? Well, that leads us on to the first segment of the podcast. It's called the So What Do You Know?

This is where I have a go at guessing what you at home might know about today's subject. And unless you're into 18th century crime or you really enjoy recent metafiction, I'm going to assume that you're like Stu. You are drawing a bit of a blank here. Jack Shepard, pretty common name, but you know, plenty of them floating around. But this is not a Jack Shepard that's going to ring any bells, I don't think. The most famous novel about him was published in 1839 by William Harrison Ainsworth. And the last time someone made a movie about him was 1969, which again, pretty far away. However, the tide is turning a little bit in 2018 there was a critically acclaimed novel called the confessions of the fox which reimagined him as a transgender

character and i've also included him in my recent book on the history of celebrity so his recent pop culture legacy is perhaps gaining a little bit momentum and maybe by the end of this episode he will be famous to us all and we could all enjoy some sort of BBC drama soon. But Jack Shepard, for now, a bit of an enigma. So it's time to find out who he is. Dr. Lena, where and when does Jack Shepard's story begin? Shepard was born on the 4th of March 1702, which is the year that Queen Anne ascended to the throne. And you may know Queen Anne from The Favourite. He was born in Spitalfields in London. He had three siblings but unfortunately his father died quite young when he was quite young. He's born in Spitalfields. This is not a kind of wealthy area particularly, is it?

No, it's East London so it means that it's mostly manufacturers etc. In this particular area we have a lot of foreign weavers as well. These people are doing something quite significant but they're not necessarily liked by a lot of other citizens. And his dad has died, which means he goes straight into... Well, Stu, do you know where he goes? Can you have a guess? Foreign weaving school. It's like the X-Men Academy, but... Yeah, it'd be Dr Balthazar's Academy for weavers of unusual prowess and no, what would he go into?

The poor house? The workhouse? The workhouse, spot on. The ripper-orium? Well, you don't want to go to the ripper-orium, that sounds terrifying, but the workhouse, you bang on Lena, it's not a nice place to grow up, is it, the workhouse? No, they're not. Workhouses in the 18th century are normally seen as a punishment

for the poor, not something to support them really so only the very poor or desperate go to them. Their lives are not horrible there, but they're really regimented. They're supposed to be doing something specific every moment of their time. And the only time that they can actually leave the workhouse is on Sunday. In addition, if they misbehave, they face punishment, not corporal punishment, which is actually something, but solitary confinement is quite common. For children, it's slightly better

because at least they get some education, a tiny bit, and they may be apprenticed afterwards. Solitary confinement instead of beatings. I'm not sure that's progress. I'm going to jump in here. I don't want to do a sort of spoiler here, but this is a prediction. I think Jack Shepard don't play that that way i don't think this is an environment where the young jack shepherd is going to thrive i think solitary confinement beatings in a regimented

lifestyle that's not that's not what yanks this guy's chain i like him already you're in he's like 10 years old and you're already committed but it doesn't actually end for him that badly because he does get lifted out of this workhouse school because his mum knows someone. And he is called the wonderful Mr. William Kneebone, connected to the thigh bone. Yes. Good name, isn't it? That's great. That is a proper Dickensian name. You hear that sort of name and you think Dickens didn't just make up all the stuff he used.

They just were lying around. And so he is going to take Jack on as an apprentice boy. So apprenticeships take seven years. It's a really long commitment and it's a pretty sensible career move for a young man. It gives him a path where he'll be able to earn money and have a respectable life. So he's actually done all right here. And what is he learning, Lena? He's apprenticed a carpenter called Mr. Wood, very appropriately. What do you do, Mr. Wood? I'm a carpenter. Mr Wood, very appropriately. Very nice. What do you do, Mr Wood? I'm a carpenter. All right. I mean, that's how names work, right? In the older days, you would literally, it's Mr Bun the baker, that kind of thing.

Mr Wood, Mr Kneebone, presumably at some point was or will be a skeleton. Sort of predictive job there. I think he did become a skeleton. We all do, I'm afraid. Yes, so Mr Wood teaches him carpentry, which is obviously a useful skill. And he does six and a half years of his apprenticeship. So he's so nearly done. And then he goes, nah, can't be bothered. So why? What happens to most young men in this period that actually go bad? They meet bad people, bad women often.

And also breaking the Sabbath is the third thing that actually go bad. They meet bad people, bad women often. And also, breaking the Sabbath is the third thing that actually leads him astray. Oh, and if you work for a carpenter, that's important, right? That's their thing. Yeah, I mean, of all the careers, the most Jesus-y career is carpentry, surely. You can't be working on the Sabbath when you're a carpenter. Come on, Shepard.

Shepard as well. That's probably what got him the gig. Jack Shepard, carpenter. Would you like some fish? But he's not for it, so he does six and a half years of an apprenticeship and then bails. Right at the end. This is sounding like the Jack Shepard I know and love.

You say, obviously, Leonard, bad women. Is there a specific bad woman? The problem is that he's going to alehouses, and especially the Black Lion Alehouse. And alehouses are notorious places where young people should not go, really, because they're full of criminals and unsavory types, etc. And you go there, you drink a lot, you gamble. So all those things are really problematic.

But also, he meets a lady who is called Elizabeth Leon, but she's mostly known as Edgware Bess. Edgware Bess. It's good, isn't it? Edgware Bess. Yes. And so the pub good, isn't it? Edgware Bess. Yes. And so the pub is called the Black Lion Tavern. That's where the Crimms hang out. And that's where he's spending his time.

This cell house opens as Jack is kind of trying to finish his apprenticeship. He tries to invite a lot of apprentices to come there and frequent the Elk House, basically. So he goes there a lot. Oh, so do you mean the Black Lion is specifically trying to get clientele they want the apprentices there they want it to be

the apprenticeship drinking den It's like those dodgy pubs that are sort of like you don't need an ID to get in so when you're 15 Yeah totally

two shots for a pound you walk past going how do they make that work students What year were you born? Oh 1983 1702 Come on get get in!

So the Black Lion is sort of the epicentre of dodgy young men who should know better but don't know better. Is it his fault? Can we say that he's a young man who's been led astray? Apprentices are being seen as children for the most part. So I think it's very easy for him to say, ooh, it's really not my fault. These bad people and these bad women actually seduce me to this life of crime.

But equally, he's old enough to be able to do it. It's just that this kind of narrative is really easy to say, you know. So how old is he at this point? I think he's a teenager at that point. He must be, I mean, they get apprenticed early, I think. So about 10, 11. So he can be up to pretty much 18 at that point. Stu, were you a rebel in your youth?

17, 18, were you hanging out in the wrong kind of places? I used to hang out in a pub in Levington Spa full of rockers, full of guys in bands with leather jackets. And I hoped I'd fallen in with a bad crowd, and they turned out to be very nice young men indeed. So you were looking for bad company and you ended up actually with people who listened to bad company. Yeah, I think so.

It was around then I started doing street shows. I started juggling in the street and I think that was definitely an attempt to fall in with a bad crowd or meet some interesting people that weren't going to grow up to be accountants. I fell in with a crowd of international, crumbly, clown old men. Now, if you tell me whether that's a bad crowd i think they're great but have we as a unit achieved anything we have not but you haven't gone to prison yet so i think you're doing all right you don't know me you're out for good behavior um my mortal fear of prison is the only reason I'm not a criminal mastermind. I absolutely

love the idea of a non-threatening, elegant, perfect crime kind of a heist where no one gets hurt and no one can get hurt because you've designed the heist so well. But even though I've got a couple of ideas, I am mortally afraid of not only prison, but generally being told off. Right. So you're the perfect criminal, apart from any sort of criticism. Absolutely. I get very shamed very easily. Put that back. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. So, Stu, you're not a hardened criminal and you're never going to be one. But it sounds like Elizabeth Leon or Lion or Edgware Bess, it sounds like she was relatively good at being a criminal, or at least that was the life she knew.

Can we hear a bit more about her, please, Lena? First of all, if you have a nickname, probably you're a criminal. She was a prostitute and a thief, and she was a person that everyone loved, but also everyone loved to blame. So there are four different thieves who have said that she had used them to a life of crime. And for at least one of them, we are certain that this is not true

because she was a criminal already. But, you know, why blame yourself when you can blame someone else? Clearly, she's very good at what she's doing. She's not just a sort of bit part player. She was also into a slightly deeper type of crime, proper robbery as well. And she brings Jack into that world. And also Jack's brother too. Yes, they start doing burglaries.

And in this one, actually, Jack's skills come into play because he's a carpenter. Even if he doesn't finish his apprenticeship, obviously he knows a lot about that. So what he does is that he opens a store by removing some wooden bars from a window, goes into the store. He's quite small, which helps probably.

And also comes out again and puts the wooden bars in place. And by consequence, the people are completely mystified because they don't know what happened. Oh, I love that. That's very Ocean's Eleven, isn't it? You're putting your team together. We need the knife man. We need the lookout. We need the getaway driver. And we need a small carpenter. It's a perfect crime, Stu. It's what you were talking about before.

It's the idea of a crime that no one knows has happened. I love it. Now, if Shepard's smart, and I think he is, he's going to keep going back and hitting that same place time and time again, only stealing a tiny little bit. He's going to do it like subscription payments, knock over about 50 different places, each sneaking in, take a little thing, back the next week, pop back, pop the bars back.

Come on, Shepard, you can take it all the way. I think you might be over-exaggerating his intelligence. He was not renowned for his ability to avoid capture. Let's put it that way. I would love to have that on my tombstone. Not renowned for his ability to avoid capture. Yeah, I mean, he was very good at stealing stuff. He had something of a habit of then forgetting to run away.

The first place you would look for a criminal is probably going to be the Black Lion Tavern. And that is where he lives. So he basically... Oh, no, the cops walk in. Who here knows Edgware best? Puts his hand up. Oh, too late. They've got me again.

Exactly that. And so we've heard already that, you know, the brother gets sucked into this too. So it's a bit of a family thing. There's other people in the gang, aren't there, Lena? There's... Blueskin. Sounds like a crim. Yeah, I mean, he's called Blueskin.

That's... Unless he's got like a really bad pneumonia. I'm guessing former sailor covered in tattoos. Am I close? Not so much. Smurf? No, I mean, it's supposed to be because either if he's complex or because he had a beard, I think,

because of something on his face. Maybe a beard, I guess. Who knows? Maybe it's one of those ironic nicknames, when you call your big friend Tiny. Yes. You go, this is a completely normal Jeff. We can't call him that. Blue skin. On the spectrum of naughty, you've got Jack Shepard,

who's sort of amateur criminal, having some fun. Blue skin, he's a bit more of a hardened crim, isn't he? And he's involved in various kinds of crimes. So he does pickpocketing, burglaries, highway robbery, everything. Actually, one of the contemporaries says that there is no robbery in town that blue-skinned doesn't have a hand in it. And the thing is that even though he's arrested a couple of times, he managed to avoid execution by providing evidence for conviction of his associates.

So he's selling them out to save his own skin. His own blue skin. Unbelievable. And you've got to think as well, when execution was the punishment for theft, or for pretty much anything, you sneeze in the wrong direction, they kill you. If you are a career criminal, you have been phenomenally lucky, or sold out every single one of your mates. Jack is in with blue skin now. He can blame the fact that he didn't go to church on a Sunday or whatever, but ultimately he's now properly criminal. London

in the 1720s, which is when Jack is a young man, it is a city rife with crime, isn't it, Lena? Yes. First of all, it's a really big city in this period. So it's becoming one of the biggest cities in Europe. It has 600,000 people living in London. They come from everywhere. And the issue is that London is a center for everything. It's about politics, administration, passion, entertainment. You know, whatever you want to do, you go to London to do it. By consequence, a lot of really poor people come to London. They try to find a job.

They cannot find a job because there are not that many jobs. And they end up poor. They can either beg or try to get some support, some poor relief, or turn to a life of crime. Also, the problem is that close proximity. The rich and the poor live very close to each other. So this creates tensions, and this is one of the reasons why there are a lot of riots in London in this period, actually. It's a period of riots, isn't it?

There's also not really a police force, really. So it's not like there are kind of bobbies on the beat there to apprehend criminals. 1724 is the year where he really commits now. This is the big year, Stu. I have to say, I'm still catching up with the fact that there are no police. This is a very different prospect. I'm amazed he lasted six and a half years of his apprenticeship.

The police force as we know it is a 19th century idea. So in the 18th century, Leona, how does policing work in an era before police? I wouldn't say it's lawless. What I would say is that it's very much based on private initiative. So people are supposed to hear someone

shout, oh, stop thief and run after the thief and apprehend them themselves. So the problem with that, of course, is then you have to have someone to actually be willing to go to court to prosecute someone. And this is where it gets slightly trickier. You need to be a very good citizen to do that. And obviously not everyone is willing to do that in this period, at least.

Yeah. And you have something called the Bow Street Runners. Have you heard of those, Stu? I have heard of the Bow Street Runners, yes. They predate the police, do they? They do. They are basically like seven blokes in a small house and they are operating out of Bow Street and they do sort of have a slight policing mission.

They're run by the Fielding brothers, the novelist Henry Fielding and his brother John, and they are sort of five burly blokes and two gentlemen in wigs and they go off and try and apprehend crims and bring them to magistrate court but that's that's essentially it I think I've changed my what I'd do if I was around in the 1700s okay yeah I wouldn't mind being a bow street runner well this is it I never knew whether I'd rather be a cop or a criminal because I'm naturally quite attuned to being police so you think you'd be maybe apprehending rather than committing i'd be a bent copper best of both worlds okay what i'd like to do is come up with the idea for the

bow street runners and go don't worry madam we've got your purse back cost half your purse there we go you're on to an absolute winner i think you might have just actually uh hit the nail on the head there stewie because that's exactly how it worked. Lena, do you want to tell us about the Thief-Taker General? Oh, this is my guy. Yes, he is. He very much is. He's everything you described. Jonathan Wilde, who is called Thief-Taker General, actually realises very quickly what victims really want

is someone to return their stolen goods to them. By consequence, what he does is that he puts advertisements on newspapers saying that this thing has been stolen. If you find it, please return it to Jonathan Wilde and I will give you a fee. No questions asked about how you found that. Oh, so it's basically like any online secondhand theft and resale website. And Jonathan Wilde, he's sort of in charge of apprehending criminals. But Stu, as you've already cottoned on, it's very line of duty. He's a bent copper, really. He's running it. You get a section of the squad to go out and do the crimes,

talk to Edgeware Bess, she'll set you up. And then when they come back with the stuff, slap on the wrist, appearance of justice, you sell half the stuff back and keep the other half. The thing I feel like here is just on my own initiative, I've stumbled upon the greatest conspiracy idea of the 1700s. Like, I'd have totally invented that. Do you ever think, what could I take back with me if I travelled back in time?

I can't tell anyone how to make a battery. Do you know what I mean? I can't do anything physics-wise. But coming up with the idea of creating a police force and then it being corrupt, that's a doozy. Anyone could do that. I love that you're aspiring to being a corrupt criminal. Corrupt time traveller. I refer you to my two earlier comments regarding my favourite genre of movies.

Sorry, okay, so this is very much an 18th century-specific corruption of your soul. You are... I'm the thief-taker-specific. There it is. So Jack Shepard is orbiting into this world. It's a world where you've got Edgware Bess, you've got Blue Skin,

you've got high women like Dick Turpin and various other sort of dodgy, nasty people. And he's committing crimes. And the crimes are primarily robbery, aren't they, Lena? He is stealing stuff. He's not hurting people, though, is he? He's not a bad lad. Not in general.

I think he goes for a spell of highway robbery, but not much. And it's not the thing that he's really famous for. So it's mostly burglaries that he does he's not great at not getting caught stew as we've already said uh and he does actually get apprehended in april 1724 and he gets carted off to the lockup it's called st giles it's a sort of prison holding cell and it's made entirely of wood get in there these are your tools again you might have actually sort of suddenly because it's not maximum security he gets out doesn't he and it's pretty clever how he gets

out do you want to tell us how he does it yeah he has a razor on him surprisingly he breaks his chair then he cuts a hole on the roof he starts removing bits and throwing them out. And one tile actually falls on the head of a man outside who starts shouting. He just runs for it, gets out and gets into the crowd, actually. And he starts saying, oh, what are we doing here? The crowd is shouting, oh, there's a criminal. He's on the roof, et cetera. And Jack the Shepherd is just sitting there saying, yes, of course.

Why not? Could you just go back on that? He's got a razor. He breaks a chair and then climbs onto the roof. Yes. And Jack the Shepherd is just sitting there saying, yes, of course, why not? Could you just go back on that? He's got a razor. He breaks a chair and then climbs onto the roof. Yes. Like using the chair. He's using the chair and the razor, I think, to dig a hole on the roof.

I see. So he fashions some tools out of a broken chair. Yes. So he tunnels out onto the roof. Gotcha. And then he knocks a tile off. There's a distraction, a scuffle. And then he hides with the crowd as they're all pointing at the roof. And says yes i think i see him and scuttles off classic jack reacher love it yeah and this is his first escape stew but there

are more to come oh i love him it's good though isn't it because it's distraction it's sort of magic trick it's it's a kind of the first art of of being a street performer i guess is to gather your crowd and then grab their attention so he he's immediately out of prison. Hooray! And then about three weeks later, he is back in prison because, as I said to you, he's not the brightest when it comes to avoiding capture. He immediately goes back to the same pub, hangs out with the same people.

So very quickly... Well, there's no police! Come on, there's only seven Bow Street runners. What are the chances they're going to get to your pub? Well, quite high by the sound of it, because clearly they know he's there. Yeah, fair enough. So in May 1724, he's now put into a different prison. How do you think he escapes this time, Stu?

Ooh, OK. Well, first I need to know a bit more about the prison. Is this one made out of bricks? It is. OK, I break a chair. Definitely open with breaking a chair. I'd use big, chunky splinters from the chair to climb above, like sort of little crampons, to climb above the door so that the prison guard on his rounds would look through and go,

oh, there's no one in, where did he go? And then when he opened the door and stepped in, I'd drop on his head, take him out, run up to the roof, kick tiles off and do the whole process again. That's pretty good. You do have a sort of criminal ingenuity. I've given this a lot of thought. He doesn't do that. Lena,

he relies on his friends to deliver some parcels for him, doesn't he? He's in prison with Edgware Bess this time. Some friends of theirs bring them tools for the job, basically, and clearly no one checked to find out whether or not they are carrying anything on them. Separate files from his manatees, removes an iron bar from the job, basically, and clearly no one checked to find out whether or not they are carrying anything on them.

Seppard files through his manatees, removes an iron bar from the window, and then makes a robe from his blanket and besties' clothes, leaving her in her undergarments. And then he holds her and himself out, down 25 feet in the yard below, and then they also scale a perimeter wall, which is another 22 feet.

Oh, mate, you can do a lot with an iron bar attached to a rope made out of clothes. These are such classic escapes. Absolutely love them. You've got to think the prison governor is sat there with his head in his hands going, how did I not think they'd do that? I mean, next time round, all the prisoners should be naked.

That's the rule, isn't it? No clothes allowed. Too easy to turn into rope. So he's fashioned a rope out of clothes and blanket. He's lowered himself out of a window and then he's scaled a big old fence. That is very impressive. He's strong. He's fit.

He's 22 years old. He's in the prime of life. He's an escapologist, isn't he? He's not just a criminal. He can get out of stuff that other people sort of like when they're thrown in prison, they're like, oh, well, I guess I'm here forever. But he's out within a couple of days.

Pop back to the Black Lion for a swift half and then back to prison. Yeah, exactly. Oh, I forgot my keys. Hang on, I'll be back. See you in an hour. So that's his second escape. And unfortunately, Jack is arrested a third time because he robs his old master, the guy who got him out of the workhouse, lovely Mr Kneebone. He does him over.

So Jack is unfortunately betraying the trust of the man who'd helped him when he was younger. Not cool. He then, of course, immediately is captured a third time because he's fallen foul of Jonathan Wilde. Jonathan Wilde, the thief-taker general we've already mentioned, who has fallen out with blueskin and so therefore also takes against Jack and he's chucked in prison. And the third prison is different again, isn't it, Lena? Yes, it is a new prison in Clerkenwell. Each time, are they putting him

in more chains? Are they kind of going, OK, this time we've nailed it. We're absolutely not going to let him escape. This time he's going to wear, you know, manacles and ankle things and we'll sellotape him to the floor. What are they doing? They're trying to do it better this time around, but clearly they have no luck with that one either. So this time around he's basically been imprisoned by Edsworth Bess and another woman.

They bring him tools again with which to show through the bars of the condemned hold. He squeezes through the bars and then he dresses up in a woman's nightgown and walks out of the prison through the bars of the condemned hold. He squeezes through the bars and then he dresses up in a human's nightgown and walks out of the prison through the main gate with Edward Best on his arm, basically. I imagine by this point he's pretty relaxed about the whole being sent to prison thing.

I sentenced you for 10 years. Oh, do you? Am I allowed visitors? Are they allowed to be carrying anything? That's incredible. You'd think that they'd search them for sharp things it's sort of remarkably lax you'd think so but this is uh edge where best we're dealing with here and if anyone has wiles it's best she she actually is believed to have invented hey look over there and then when they're distracted you sneak past but i love how

casual he is he walks out through the main gate just in a dress, pretending to do some small talk with Bess, just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I'm just visiting my friend. It's such a kind of chill escape in front of everyone, just walking past them. Morning, morning, hello. I mean, he's very good at what he does, which is both being captured and escaping again. And I bet he used that line to chat women up at the ale house. I love the idea his skill set involves he's really, really excellent at being apprehended. And then he's like, oh, no, whoops, I should have probably escaped by now. I'll escape. It's fine. But you can apprehend me again tomorrow. It's like telling people you're really good at giving up smoking.

It sort of suggests that the boast itself contains an admission of failure, doesn't it? I'm great at escaping from prison are you okay stew do you want to guess what happens the fourth time he is thrown in prison he's caught again is it the same prison he's thrown into no this this is the ultimate prison now this is newgate jail this is this is the big daddy and there's a special wing called the castle the jack shepherd wing a special wing called the castle how's he getting out of the castle what can you can you give me he getting out of the castle? Can you give me a bit more of the surroundings of Newgate? What's it known for?

It's supposed to be the biggest prison in London. It's an old prison. OK, this is my guess. Day one. Jack, you've got a visitor. Is it Edgware Bess? Yes, it is. Edgware Bess shuffles into the room.

Clank, clank, clank. The guards leave. She flips up the skirt, can-can style. Inside Bess shuffles into the room. Clank, clank, clank. The guards leave. She flips up the skirt, can-can style. Inside it, he's got a cement mixer, professional drilling equipment, and they go out. They smash the door down. He dresses as Edgware Bess and two Edgware Besses skateboard

casually out of Newgate. I mean, that sounds lovely. I would love to watch that. He does not skateboard anywhere, but it is an incredibly elaborate escape, this one. The proper sort of Steven Soderbergh montage sequence in a sort of Ocean's Eleven type film. Oh, two toddlers, really long coat.

Reverse Trojan horse. Lena, he is chained to the floor. He is fettered on his ankles. He is handcuffed. So these are iron manacles and then he is attached to the floor so he physically cannot move. They steal the entire floor. They get the front door of the prison and they turn it round so technically he's now on the outside. That's very Christopher Nolan that, isn't it? That's sort of Inception. We invert the prison.

No, so he finds a nail and he unlocks the handcuffs. That's the first bit. He breaks the chains holding him because he knows the weak points of chains because he's trained as a carpenter. So he knows where the weak point of the metal is. Carpentry, day three, how to escape from chains. Great. And then, Lena, I mean, it gets really good from here, doesn't it?

What does he do next? He uses the broken links from the chain in order to remove one of the iron bars from the chimney. He climbs through it and then he goes through the prison, opening six locked doors in the process, pretty much with a nail. And then he reaches the summit of the jail and there is a fall of more than 60 feet.

So he goes back to his prison cell, gets his blanket, and I'm sure Stu knows what to do with the blanket now. Oh, yeah. Uses it as a rudimentary parachute, having pushed the six released prisoners down the hole so that he can land on their soft bodies. Better, actually.

I appreciate that. He uses the blanket to just lessen his descent. He falls on the neighbouring house. He waits upstairs for a bit. And when he doesn't hear anyone underneath, he stalls down the stairs and gets out. Incredible. That is so good. My favourite bit about it is that he breaks out

of his manacles, his ankle stuff being chained to the floor. He breaks out of the room by going up the chimney that no one has thought about. He goes all the way up through six doors that he has to unlock. He goes the entire length of the prison. He goes out onto the roof and then he goes, oh bum, it's 60 feet. I'd better go all the way back.

This is basically a point and click adventure. I think I've played this computer game. Isn't this Escape from Monkey Island? When you've got to go all the way back. You're like, oh God, ten loading screens later, you're back at the place where you've got to pick up the blanket. Absolutely you're like, God, ten loading screens later, you're back at the place where you've got to pick up the blanket. Absolutely.

I just love the fact that no one is checking on him. No one's gone. You know the arch criminal who's really good at escaping? He should probably have someone nearby. Yes. And then the government meeting. Well, you know there's no police, no prison officers. When we say prison, it's literally a room.

This is where we get into, Lena, your specialist area, which is how gossip and the media construct people because by this point he is an absolute superstar he is a celebrity now he is the guy who's escaped four times from prison and my favorite fact about him the thing i think is hilarious is that he likes to dress up as a beggar so that he can gossip about himself with strangers in the pub and just go, Hey, you know that Jack Shepard? He's brilliant, isn't he? Isn't he handsome? He's so handsome. I love this. Come on, we all do that. Don't we all do that, guys? What, do you do that? I mean, have you got a sock puppet Twitter account, Stu, where you sort of tweet about how brilliant Stu Goldsmith is?

Absolutely. It's called Stu washing. I'm very good at it. So he's aware of his own reputation and his reputation is being burnished by the media, isn't it, Lena? Yes, very much so. Everyone's talking about him, basically. There are people saying that everyone is going mad with him, laying wagers about him, saying, OK,

will he escape again? Will he get caught again? The answer is probably yes to both of these questions. A consistent hero at large. One of the odds, even odds, he's going to get caught. But also there are many pamphlets and plays written about him. Singers sing ballads about him in every street corner. A newspaper even reports that George I had asked for two copper plates to be made featuring his escape.

So he's getting very famous. And the other thing, of course, is that he's so famous, Lena, that when he's in prison, his guards are charging, basically, punters to come and see him. And they rake in like 200 quid, which is thousands of pounds in modern money. Quite impressive that they managed to do so much, but clearly he was so famous

that a lot of people actually wanted to come and see him. The king is commissioning art of him. The king of Britain is going, I want an engraving of this dude. He sounds great. You can't get an engraving. We can't hold him long enough to get a likeness. Well, funny enough, he does pose

for one of the greatest artists of the age, doesn't he, Lena? Yes, we have a portrait of him by Sir James Thornhill, who is a court painter. I think the sketch is from his appearance at court, where they are certain they will have him at least. Stu, I'm just going to test you on a few bits of criminal slang from the 18th century. Oh, come on. Yes. I've got five words here for you.

Canting is the slang of the 18th century. And a rat was what? Well, I want to say it was a two inch J shaped piece of metal that you'd use for getting in cars, but they didn't have them. So I'm going to say, I mean, it's an informant. Nearly, nearly. It's a newly arrested prisoner. So someone who's just been chucked in the prison. Oh, a new fish.

A new fish. Okay, very good. Got it, a rat. To babble. What do you think babbling is? To confess or to grass your mate up. I think to babble is to spill the beans, blue-skin style, on your associates. 100%.

Bang on, well done. It's to inform against your mates. What do you think chummage is? I think maybe chummage is... Oh, is it a bribe that you would pay to the authorities to look the other way? Oh, nearly, nearly. It is a bribe.

It's a bribe or it's extortion for the prison guards to treat you leniently. So you'd pay them chummage. Oh, the screws. Brian, you've got to slip them some chummage. Slip them some chummage and they might let you hurt. The screws, incidentally, is what I call the adolescent people that the local bump and bounce,

that my son used to go to pre-pandemic. It's like one of those trampoline things. People in their early 20s who walk around telling the grown-ups that they're not allowed, well, repeatedly in my case, telling the grown-ups they're not allowed to bounce on the trampoline. Telling you.

And I call them the screws. I'm like, quiet, kiddo. The screws are looking at Daddy. I'll do the trick in a minute. You should pay them some chummage. I've got to sort them some chummage, yeah. Okay, what do you think a lappy is? L-A-P-P-Y.

A lappy. A lappy. Is it a belt that goes under your clothes that you keep your tools in? Like your skeleton key? Nice guess. No, it's a drunkard. Someone who laps up too much booze. And finally, a pop, P.O.P.

A club for knocking someone over the head with when they go down the wrong alley. Nearly. It is a weapon. It's a pistol. Your pop is a pistol. Oh, a pop, of course it's a pistol. Come on, Goldsmith. Now, we don't think that Jack Shepard was a pistol-waving criminal, do we?

No, we don't. I don't think there are any stories of him really doing much. I mean, if he did have a robbery, probably he did use a pistol at some point. But if he did, that was a very brief spell. I don't think so, overall. There's no murder charges. He's not accused of killing anyone like Dick Turpin or anything like that.

He's about nicking the stuff, but he leaves people alone. He's all right. He's the people's hero. Nick the stuff, pop back to the Black Lion. I really hope when they get round to a contemporary movie of the life of Jack Shepard, he gets away with everything and then just blows it all at the end by walking straight back into the Black Lion

where everyone is waiting for him. And it's one of those lovely dramatic moments where you're like, he's got it. There's the boat. It's waiting to take him to freedom, full of gold. He just looks back over his shoulder. He's like, anyone fancy a pint? And wanders fancy a pint back in credit well that's basically his story because he does throw it all away doesn't he in autumn of 1724 he's already escaped from prison four times he's now

a celebrity everyone knows who he is everyone knows what he looks like because he's posed for a portrait which is not the smartest thing and he's got a haunt and he keeps going back to it and also there's a point now where they're like all right this guy we need to get rid of him because people like him too much he's dangerous so his trial gets moved up and he's going to the gallows so what do you think happens when he goes to Tyburn Hill to be hanged? And first of all, Stu, do you want to guess how big the audience was? All seven of the Bow Street runners. No, I would say that, what, how many people did you say were in London?

600,000. I reckon 10% of them showed up. I reckon 60,000 people turned up. That's a good crowd, isn't it? That's a decent crowd. Go higher. Higher? More than 10% of London came to see him be hanged.

Oh my God. 120,000 people. Higher. Half of London. 300,000 people. Okay, I'm going one out. The whole of London. Every single person in London. They're busing people in from Yorkshire.

It's 200,000 people is the estimate. It might be an exaggeration, but it's an enormous crowd. It's something like a third of London shows up to watch one man go to the gallows. Please, please tell me he does that thing where you swallow a silver bar into your throat and so it stops you from getting your neck broken when you get hung. So this is the thing.

A lathe. He pops a chisel in his neck. Come on, Shepard, you can do it. Lena, there is talk here that there's a plan to escape a fifth time, isn't there? That's what people gossip about. Yes, enough is found on him. So there is the idea that maybe he was going to try another, you know, have another go at escaping at the last moment. He doesn't manage that. So he's carted to Tyburn, which is London's place of execution, and through to form, at least, he drinks

a pint along the way. Stop for a pint, classic. He doesn't stop in Black Lion, does he? That's not what he's going to do. The other thing he does that's extraordinary, Stu, do you want to have a quick guess about who might have written his autobiography for him? Whoa! Think about a famous novelist from this era. There aren't many you'll know, but you might know this one. Do you want to have a quick guess about who might have written his autobiography for him? Whoa.

Think about a famous novelist from this era. There aren't many you'll know, but you might know this one. I'm going to get caught out on my pathetic understanding of time. Dickens, Shakespeare, Zadie Smith. I can't do it. Daniel Defoe, supposedly. We're not 100% certain, but we think that Daniel Defoe might have ghostwritten his autobiography. And amazingly enough,

as he's on the way to execution, Jack Shepard advertises it to the crowd. Yes, of course he does. There is a plan to try and save him, supposedly. A gang of buddies that are going to try and race in at the last minute because at this point, when you are hanged, they don't have the drop yet.

They don't break the neck just yet. Dangling, this is asphyxiation. You can take 15, 20 minutes. It gives you time. And some people would dangle and would look dead, but could be revived. And so his buddies are planning to get in and save him. But there are 200,000 people there

and they just can't get through the crowd. So his celebrity kills him. He is ironically finished by his own fame. Oh, no. Jackie would have loved that. So he does die, I'm afraid, and the 200,000 people sort of cheer and are sad about it,

but they've had a good day out. And hang around for ages, assuming there'll be a daring final escape. Yeah, presumably. For ages. I'm afraid there is no miracle resuscitation. Jack Shepard is dead at 22. So 1724, he has been arrested and escaped from prison four times,

finally hanged all in one year. It's an incredible year. Wow. His autobiography. What a year. They do say the candle that burns twice as bright gets sent to prison again. I mean, I'm guessing, Stu, that you're still on board with him here. You're still kind of enjoying the jackship.

I love him. Lena, can we hear about his brother? His brother is called Thomas and also, of course, Edgware Bess. What happens to them? They're not lucky either, actually. In the next two years, they're both caught and sentenced to be transported to Maryland in America. And even though it may sound like that is a more benign punishment, actually being transported to America was seen by most convicts

as a death sentence. So a lot of them tried to escape from the ship, even if that meant that if they were caught again, they would be executed. Yeah, if you arrived as a convict, you weren't treated very nicely. What happened to Blueskin? He's executed. He tries one last time to actually

persuade Jonathan Wilde to save him. Jonathan Wilde doesn't want to, so Blueskin just stabs him on the neck with a knife and eventually gets executed. Ah, and does that kill Wilde? No, even though some people were really happy about that one for a while. Thief Taker General survives a stab to

the neck from a guy called Blueskin. Yeah. Do you want to guess what happens to the thief-taker general? He gets... Oh, what would happen to someone like that? I reckon he ends up in chains because the next... Someone from his ranks works their way up, becomes the new boss, and goes, my first action, this guy's corrupt, let's do it. I mean, it's pretty much that, isn't it?

I mean, he ends up executed, doesn't he? Yes, eventually. Yeah, it turns out that thief-taking is still technically stealing. He's been so corrupt for so long, eventually the authorities are like, this guy has to go down. Yes, I mean, it takes them a very long time to decide that, actually, because they know about it for a long time.

So there's a lot of accusations about the corruption of government as well because of that. But yes, eventually they just make sure that they have enough evidence against him to just convict him. And soathan wilde thief taker general becomes the thief taker dead the nuance window that's the end of our story really that's all of our characters so i mean that really is where we get to my favorite part of the show which is the nuanced window stew this is where you and I go quiet for a couple of minutes and we allow our expert, Dr. Lena, to do a mini lecture on what we need to know. And Lena, you are fascinated by crime and the media and how reputations were constructed. So I'm going to let you have two minutes,

starting in three, two, one, the nuanced window. So why in the 18th century did so many criminals become subjects of admiration rather than being seen as a threat? I think that criminals who excite the imagination were clever, brave, and they appealed to both genders. They were gallant with women and would bring in bodies for men. Criminals were seen as brave because they were willing to risk their lives daily. And many criminals reported that they preferred to steal like stout men rather than stoop to begging or working for pennies.

This performance of bravery had also to be seen when they were arrested and executed. Gallo's humor was appreciated. And 18th century audiences loved his bravado and the wittiness of the comment. Being witty was an important quality for the likable criminal. People could not get enough of stories showing how a criminal outsmarted his victims or the officers of law enforcement. And again, Shepard fits that stereotype

obviously because his ingenious escapes was what made him so popular. Criminals were also expected to be gallant towards women. And we know that Shepard was liked by women, but actually he's not the prime example. The title goes to the 17th century highwayman Claude Duval, and it was said in his execution that all women of high and low society cried their eyes out. I think these are the characteristics that made such criminals likable. That does not

mean that all real criminals actually possessed all those qualities, but we know that at least many tried to perform this role. Thank you so much. I mean, it's this amazing idea, isn't it, of the kind of the bad boy that we all love. You're kind of rooting for them. Stu, does that feel familiar to you? You know, is that an idea that you kind of resonate with maybe in comedy or even just, you know, just growing up? Well, maybe. There is something about kind of mythic figures. Certainly when I started doing comedy, I thought to myself, whoa, this is this incredibly noble profession whereby we're all bonded by being warrior poets or something.

Obviously, then I met a load of comedians and went, oh no, we're just a bunch of people. But I do think there's a parallel whereby the things which survive are good stories, aren't they? So lots of comedians have mental health problems. Lots of people have mental health problems. But the story, the weight of the idea of the tears of a clown, the idea of Tony Hancock, for example, we go, oh yes, of course he was this fabulously talented, but he couldn't cope with it. Whatever it was that gave him this, you know, his inspiration also killed him. It makes for a good story, so we talk about it. So I'm sure it's entirely possible there were people who made similar escapes to Jack Shepard, but maybe they did it by clonking guards over the head and killing

them so they didn't have that kind of gallant innocent they probably were a bit older as well why are you going to bother telling a story about you know 55 year old Wurzel who manages to escape from any prison in the land when you've got 22 year old Jack Shepard who's got a cool name and did it without killing anyone. Yeah, I agree. And I think also, I believe this is an era of celebrity. I believe this is when we get the birth of celebrity. I think he's one of the first ever celebrities. And I think that what's so fascinating about him

is that he becomes aware of his reputation and he plays with it. He's dressing up as someone else and gossiping about himself, but he's posing for portraits. He's playing up to the role. And it allows lots and lots of people to chat about him and have fun gambling and discussing the ethics of it. You know, it's a united sort of water cooler moment, isn't it, for the nation? Yes, I think that is true. I mean, there's a lot about that to be said. And part of it is that London in this period has so many people but also so much information in general and you have newspapers

this happens in the 17th century as well to an extent but the 18th century is far clearer in the fact that there are so many opportunities to actually shape your own reputation as well which is very much what Jack Shepard I think is doing. Yeah, I mean he would have been

brilliant on Twitter, just imagining the hashtag when Jack escapes again. Mine's a pint is the hashtag. So what do you know now? Well, I mean, I've so enjoyed chatting about him, but I think it's time we get on to the quiz. This is where we test Stu to see how much he remembers. Oh, yes. I forgot about this.

Yeah, it's been a little while, hasn't it? You've got a minute on the clock, Stu. And we've got ten questions. You got ten out of ten last time on Blackbeard, so you have set yourself a high bar. Can I resign early and remain a winner? Can I just not take part in this one and just go, oh, undefeated?

No. OK, come on, I'll do my best. Here we go. Question one. After his dad's death, where did Jack Shepard spend his childhood? The workhouse. It was the workhouse. Question two.

Jack Shepard abandoned an apprenticeship in which profession? Carpentry. Carpentry's correct. Jack frequented which tavern? The Black Lion. Absolutely. What was the name of Jack's female partner in crime and romance? Hampton Lucy.

Norton Lindsay. Edgeware Bess. Question five. Jack's four escapes and execution all happened in which climactic year? 1724. Yes. Question six.

How did Jack, accompanied by Bess, escape from prison for a second time? The second time was the tools sawing a metal bar out of the thing and then the chimney was the third time. So this was fashioning a rope out of Bess's clothes. Absolutely. Question seven.

Jack was arrested a third time after robbing his old master, but what was his name? Kneebone. Mr Kneebone, that's it. Question eight. What was Joseph Blake's nickname, famed for the colour that he apparently had in his physiognomy? Oh, Blueskin.

Blueskin. You've asked that the easy way round. What was Blueskin's real name? Would have absolutely floored. Yeah, that's a hard one, isn't it? Question nine. How many people do we think turned up to the execution of Jack Shepard? A third of London.

Yes. Approximately 200,000 people. It is. And this is the final question. For a perfect run, how old was Jack Shepard when he died? 22. 10 out of 10. Come on!

Stu Goldsmith, he is the flawless champion of podcasting. Incredible run. Amazing score again. Does it mean that maybe you've connected with the story, Stu? Have you enjoyed it? Does this feel like... Oh, 100%. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I really like...

And I'm looking forward to someone turning this into a film. This is absolutely begging to be turned into a film. Oh, alright. Well, that brings us to the end of the podcast. Please do share it with your friends and leave a review online. And make sure to subscribe to the You're Dead to Me feed on BBC Sounds so you never miss an episode.

Let me say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, the marvellous Dr Lena Liapi from Keele University. Thank you, Lena. Thank you very much for inviting me. It's a pleasure having you here. And, of course, in Comedy Corner, the simply sensational 10 out of 10 pod king, Stu Goldsmith. Thank you, Stu.

Oh, my God. Can I quote you? Is that a BBC quote? Can I say the sensational 10 out of 10 pod king, BBC? Thank you very much. I, my God. Can I quote you? Is that a BBC quote? Can I say the sensational 10 out of 10 pod king, BBC. Thank you very much. I'll take that. Sure. Join me next time as we tackle another chapter of history. And if you can't wait until then,

have a smash and grab raid through our back catalogue. Perhaps revisit Stu's previous episode, another cheeky 18th century criminal, Black Bear the Pirate. But in the meantime, I'm off to go and disguise myself as a beggar and tell everyone that Greg Jenner is very handsome. I'll see you later on. Bye! You're Dead to Me was a Muddy Knees media production for BBC Radio 4. The researcher

was Amy Grant, the script was by Emma Nagoose and me, the project manager was Isla Matthews, and the producer was Cornelius Mendes. and the producer, this Cornelius Menden. Are you still there? Good. There's someone I want you to meet. Their name is Sean, they're 16, and they're in trouble. Follow Sean's journey by subscribing to Power Up on BBC Sense.

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