You're Dead to Me - Justinian and Theodora

Episode Date: September 20, 2019

Forget Beyoncé and Jay-Z, Justinian and Theodora were the power couple of the Byzantine era. From withstanding riots to protecting women’s rights, how did a woman from such humble beginnings (and who did *that* with a swan…) fall in love with one of the most powerful men of the time and secure her place in the history books? Join public historian Greg Jenner, comedian Shappi Khorsandi and historian Prof Peter Frankopan.

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, a history podcast for people who, well, just don't like history really, or at least people who forgot to learn any at school. My name is Greg Jenner, I'm a public historian, author, and I am the chief nerd on the BBC comedy show Horrible Histories. I spend my days ladling massive dollops of history into people's ears like some sort of maverick canteen worker.

So, how does this podcast work? Well, every episode I'm joined by an expert historian who's devoted years to boning up on their history, and a comedian who's devoted years to making jokes about boners. Today we are dishing the dirts on two people from history who are extraordinary but you might not have heard of them. Justinian and Theodora, empress and emperor of the mighty Byzantine Empire. And to help me do that I'm joined by two very special guests. In History Corner he's an actual rock star of history

with a ridiculous globetrotting career. He's professor of global history at University of Oxford, he's the director of the Oxford Centre for Byzantine Research and he's the author of the million-selling mega-bestseller, The Silk Roads, A New History of the World. It is Professor Peter Frankopan. Hello, Peter. Hi there, Greg. Thanks for having me. And in Comedy Corner, she's a stand-up, a writer, a cultural icon. She, well, she's been on everything, really. Live at the Apollo, Mock the Week, 8 Out of 10 Cats, Have I Got News for You, and of course, I'm a celebrity. It is the wonderful Shappi Korsandi. Hi, well, she's been on everything, really. Live at the Apollo, Mock the Week, 8 Out of 10 Cats, Have I Got News for You, and of course, I'm a Celebrity.

It is the wonderful Shappi Korsandi. Hi, Shappi. Hi. Peter's CV sounded more impressive than mine. Your CV is very long as well. Oh, I'm trying not to feel totally intimidated. Ask me anything about the Corn Lord. I won't know it. I won't know the answers. How do you think I feel? I mean, you're a comedian here. Your job is being funny. I'm the historian normally, but I'm in a room with Peter Frankapan. I am quaking in my boots here. So today we are talking about a really

exciting piece of history. But as I said in the introduction, Justina and Theodora, they are not names that roll off the tongue. Have you ever heard of them, Shappi? I haven't, but I think once this podcast goes out, we're going to have a lot of middle class parents and parts going, Justina, Theodora! It's going to, yeah. We hopefully will have plenty of those. Maybe those are dogs, I don't know. It's funny, in my world, Justina and Theodora,

they are so famous amongst Byzantine historians that it's the kind of, you go to them last. Are they the clichés? Yeah, yeah, because that's sort of the tip of the iceberg. So it's great, I sort of feel inverted. I'm upside down now. Talking about the golden boy and golden girl of Byzantine history. Is it the equivalent of sort of going David Beckham or Victoria Beckham?

100%. Yeah. All right. I was going to use that a bit later. Sorry, I've ruined your jack. Okay. All right. Well, let's start with the podcast.

We always begin with the, so what do you know? Where I summarize some of the things that listeners at home might know about this subject. So, what do you know? I'm going to be honest. You know sod all, don't you? You know absolutely sod all. Literally nothing. Because we just don't engage with Byzantine history here in the UK.

It's not on the curriculum. It's not in the syllabus. It's not in culture. It's not in movies. So, basically, to us, Byzantium sounds like something you take for indigestion. But it's super exciting. This exercise today is very much a case of introducing them. Peter, what the fudging hell is a Byzantine empire? No one's really heard of the Byzantine empire. I know that. I've been to enough drinks parties where people look blank and panic. But I mentioned the name. But everybody's heard of the

Roman Empire. Yeah. Right. The Roman Empire eventually became so big that it covered from what's today Portugal through North Africa, through almost all of Europe, Germany and so on, right the way into the edges of Iraq and Iran. And the eastern part of the empire was eventually called the Eastern Roman Empire, because Rome, we're going to say a bit about that today, gets sacked by people like Attila the Huns, well well the Goths and the Huns and people like that. And as the West starts to decline, the Eastern part of the Roman Empire carries on surviving. And they call themselves Romans. The Emperor Justin would have called himself the Emperor of the Romans. Constantinople was called New Rome, was founded as a version of Rome in the

East, closer to the action, closer to those silk roads in the East where fancy expensive things come from. So the Byzantine Empire should be called the Roman Empire. We should be doing a podcast today about the famous Roman emperor and empress, Justinian Theodora. Have you heard of the Byzantine Empire at all? Does that all fill your head with like, what? Hang on. No, I have heard of it because I was taken regularly to the British Museum. And in big, long letters, they've got a whole Byzantine section.

So I've seen that sign many times. And I know it because I know the Persians. As an Iranian, you grow up sort of by osmosis, sort of hearing about when the Persians were around and who they fought. And I know that it was around the same sort of time. I'm looking at Peter, hopefully. Persians were around more than 2,000 years of written history. Yes, they were.

Thank you for bringing that up. I'm a very ancient person. Okay, well, we're going to start our story really with introducing our characters. And we start, of course, with Justinian, whose name, of course, Shappi was. Sorry? You look terrified. I'm going to throw a name at you. Okay.

His name actually was not Justinian. So his name was Flavius Petrus Sabatius Justinianus Augustus, which is a great name. That's catchy, yes. What was the first bit? Flavius. Flavius. Sounds like a sort of R&B singer.

Flavius. That's lovely. I might have another child just to call it Flavius. Flavius and Cassius. Oh, yeah? My boys call Cassius, you see. You hear Cassius, you think Flavius. Yeah, you think Flavius. Flavius and Cassius. Oh, yeah. My boys call Cassius, you see. You hear Cassius, you think Flavius. Yeah, you think Flavius. There we go. All this is reminding me of Asterix books. Yeah. Which is where I get most of my history from. Me too, don't worry. Growing up half French,

Asterix was my touchstone. So yeah, his name is Flavius. And he is not powerful, is he? I mean, when he's a young man, he's just some bloke. He's sort of some bloke. Why he's not some bloke is that his uncle, who was the original just some bloke, was a swineherd from the Balkans. And he came to Constantinople and fell into the right place at the right time

with a good set of skills. I sort of imagine a bit like Liam Neeson in Taken, you know, good with knives and dangerous palace politics and ends up taking the throne. And he takes the name of Justin. This is a kind of, it's an odd world, the sixth century Byzantium. They keep producing emperors calling themselves

things like Justin and Julian, sort of good, you know, prep school names. And his nephew is his sort of right hand man and Justinian forges a career because you want to be close to the emperor but actually you can get too close a bit like in Star Wars Justinian is a kind of enforcer

and is seen as the coming man and his name of Justinian is out of respect to his former swine herding rags-to-riches uncle. So his uncle has gone from a pig farmer to the emperor of the Roman world. What's interesting about this world is it can be very meritocratic. It's one where you're always looking for people who've got talent,

but there is a constant churn of looking for people who are going to be competent and are going to make things work and there's no tolerance for people who are useless i have a strong desire to leave the room you're not useless at all can you go back to the pig farm a bit yeah so sorry forgive me it felt for a minute it felt for a moment i like being at school again when the teachers like starts talking and then you sort of just go off into your own little fantasies about a swine farmer. You think you're going in rags with a stick and a pig. Hold on. So he became the emperor?

Yeah. Well, he joined the army. Did quite well, sort of, you know, as a military leader, gained people's respect. And the emperor who he followed didn't have a son. So everyone's trying to work out who should be next. You see, this is really interesting about how they worked things out then. The people who were capable nowadays, right, for example, take someone like me. I went to a state secondary school. I'm dyslexic and have ADHD, right?

So the teachers went, well, you're quite bubbly, aren't you? We think maybe a holiday rep, right? But at a good public school where you pay for self-confidence and you have connections, a kid like me would be told, oh dear, well, you're never going to make doctor or lawyer, are you, with your grades? Never mind, you're very quirky and good with people. We think foreign secretary. That's what it's like nowadays, right? So yes, I think the system is much better. I think a pig farmer, if he or she is capable, should rule. I think at this point in time, what's hugely important in an empire like the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, is the loyalty of the army, because that makes and breaks the ability to wage wars, and on that hangs taxes, fairness, etc, etc. So it's very unusual to be a sort of

chinless wonder who's useless. What they're looking for is someone who isn't necessarily, you don't have to be the strongest or the best muscles or the best with a sword, but you need to be able to command loyalty, you need to be able to command loyalty. You need to be able to lead people. And that's what a leader should do. That's also what a psychopath does. That is also what a psychopath does, but I'm not going to talk about modern politics either.

All right. Let's introduce Theodora then, because Justina's a bit older. She's born about 1,500 years ago, in the year 500. Her dad has a pretty fun occupation. Shappi, can you guess what her dad might have done? OK, he makes balloon animals at fairs. That's actually quite close.

That's not bad at all. You're close with the animal and you're pretty close with the fair. Yeah. Are they so exciting? He was a bear trainer in the equivalent of Wembley Stadium. Oh, wow. So in Constantinople, what people did for kicks, after the Romans convert to Christianity, broadly speaking,

quite soon there comes an idea that killing people is bad. You know, Jesus Christ died and spilled his blood and so on. So gladiator contests are outlawed. And what replaces it, a horse racing and a bubble chariot racing. And in the kind of enormous hippodrome in Constantinople, maybe fit between 60 maybe even 100 000 people there are four teams named in different colors and they all want their entertainment before they start like a stand-up need someone to warm up the crowd so they're

ready for up for it a bit of lubrication bit of beer bit of wine and you know you're having a fun fun evening out not that kind of lubrication not like and uh and theodora's father as a bear trainer and you always have to be quite careful that's what everyone says he did people are writing about it say that he was a bear trainer because it doesn't make her look great and there's more about that to come uh but he his job was to get the mob all really excited before the main event he's a hype man yeah so what did when did he did he make the bears fight uh or they just walk around i don't know i think yeah walk around juggling oh juggling offering ice cream with the one with the bicycle where they have the little hat with the propeller on the top poor bears

animal cruelty for the entertainment of the masses do you know what that's made me think of like you know the grand national yeah i don't like the grand national because the horses never have a very good time and it's i never quite made the connection that those sort of um exhibitions or extravaganzas came from a time where people stopped watching men kill each other for entertainment so then they turn that sort of lust for um blood i guess because that's what it is the The exciting thing is at any moment one might buckle or die or whatever.

It's a risk. It's always a risk. And that came of that same sort of cruel place. We're not great at lots of things in this country, but one thing we're really good at

is inventing new games. And quite often we invent them and then turn out to be not the best at playing them. But, you know, watching Connect Four, watching people playing Connect Four,

wanting to sort of beat people, but in a way that doesn't involve their death, is connected in the same way, back to the end of Gladiator fighting, through horse racing, people wanted to compete. And watching stuff that is fun for entertainment, seeing people fight in a way

that doesn't end up killing each other. That's quite a long way to chess, isn't it? Well, you took me to the... I thought Grand National... But chess is a battle game, isn't it? Well, that's from Persia, right? Yes, of course. As are bagpipes. Thank you.

Nero played the bagpipes as well. So, ancient Roman. Well, Roman, no, that's the violin. He could play two instruments. He's a liar as well. We've introduced Theodora's dad. So, daddy is a bear trainer. So Theodora, quite a controversial career early on.

Now, the story's told that she's an actress slash sex worker. Yes. She has one particular act she does with a swan that is pretty controversial. I don't know how much we can say, but... You've said enough by just saying that. Now I'm imagining all sorts of Extravagant things to do with the swan So the story goes

Is that Grain was dropped on the floor Like a train track Leading up to the final event Which involved Theodora placing Grain In parts that like to be Pinched, tickled, bit And touched And it's hard There's a lot of noise about

that sort of thing about her being a sex worker from people writing at the time but if history teaches you one thing it's that there's one thing worse than being a woman when it comes to historians and history writing it's being a successful and powerful one so it's hard to know how much with a pinch of salt we should take all of this quite often in history you use sex and um weird sort of fetishes as a way of showing this person isn't actually normal. It's not that different to modern days, like, well, she's a slag, to completely dehumanise and discredit a woman.

But then also at the same time, because I did a show about Emma Hamilton and around her time one in six women in London did some kind of sex work at some time. About 200 years ago isn't it? So she was the lover of Lord Nelson. That's it yes and that to me says that was such a normal thing for women to do

back then anyway it just came I mean it was very odd to find a woman in history that wasn't at some way either taken advantage of for sex or had it

as a means to an end herself. I've gone really serious now. It's fine. Those tend not to become empresses. Probably the fact that she worked in a brothel probably doesn't sound that surprising. The stuff with animals, I thought,

is a much more negative way of settling scores afterwards. Funny, you know, you always think of bestiality as a modern phenomenon. Allegedly, in doing this sex act with a swan, she was retelling the story of Zeus, who apparently sexually assaults Leda by disguising himself as a swan, which is a weird story. So she was performing it as a piece of theatre. That was a lot of pressure before

internet pornography, wasn't it? Sure, yeah. Before they invented Pornhub. Yeah, they had to get creative. I should just say I've got no idea what that is. Okay, so we've introduced Theodora and we've introduced justinium how do they meet how do you how do you get this sort of power couple meeting for the first time is it is it a sort of rom-com moment it's a terrific story i think we don't know but i think in the modern world we definitely have this idea that people see each other on the other side of a room and there's a twinkle in the eye and they hook up uh i mean who knows how they how they met but justinian was obviously uh important powerful well connected and men like that are from what i understand they can be very

attractive um he was he was older than she was she was at a time when they met probably in somewhere in her early 20s he's's Mr Bachelor No. 1. So she's obviously got something about her too, that he's not just, I assume, going for her looks. And as it turns out, her character is determined, she's smart and she's brave. And that is in itself part of the story, why she rankles writers at the time,

because those aren't the qualities that they think are appropriate. They want someone who sits in the background, does what they're told. But actually, she gets seen as being power behind the throne quite quickly. He's not yet the emperor. So when they do meet, they're dating for a bit. It's all very modern. But he's not allowed to marry her initially, is he? Because of her low reputation. So does he have to sort of win that argument?

There are laws passed around this time that change who poshos are allowed to marry. But you remember Justinian, although he's influential and connected, he's not aristocratic in the way which we'd understand that, of lineage going back to the pig farm. So it could be that these are just changed for different reasons. But the correlation of time looks like it's done with Justinian in mind, that he's determined. And if that is the story, if it is right that she's a sex worker,

if it's right that she has a reputation about herself, then it's a pretty punchy thing to do, to say, I'm going to change the constitution, change the laws, to allow me to pick her out of everybody else. And you can see, you know, Elizabeth I, for example, didn't want to pick any of the lads

because that would weaken her position, because so on. She hadn't just been in Byzantium, the capital city, she'd also been to North Africa. When we say the wordads, because that would weaken her position because, you know, so on. She hadn't just been in Byzantium, the capital city, she'd also been to North Africa. When we say the word Rome, and I mean Byzantine as well by that, we all think of the same thing. We all think of people heading to watch Russell Crowe

and Joaquin Phoenix. It's a great film, by the way. But we tend to think that everybody is the same, that they look the same, that they wear the same things, that they all live in the same, they all must live in cities, they're all, you know, wanting to meet Derek Jackerby wearing his toga. But this is a very diverse world. Places like Egypt and Palestine and what's now Iraq have linguistic differences. of different views about religions, different non-Christian practices, but also lots of different views about what Christianity means. And Theodora, probably from either North Africa or somewhere in the near Middle East, Near East, is what's called a monophysite. That's someone who believes in the specific, I'm not going to talk about that for long, I promise. There are lots of arguments about exactly what is the relationship between God and Jesus

Christ. Are they separate? Are they the same thing, same person, etc? And this is a time that's very noisy. And Theodora is in a minority here. She's from a monophysite background and not from Constantinople. So she's a real outsider, even though she's Roman and she is living in Constantinople, marries the emperor. She's from the wrong side of the tracks every single which way you look at it. She's a woman, she's from the provinces, she's from the wrong side of the Christian every single which way you look at it. She's a woman. She's from the provinces. She's from the wrong side of the Christian world. And so her position in Constantinople is one where there's no network, no friends, no connections, nothing.

It's a woman making it on her own. Amazing. Shappi, is religion in your life ever a factor? I mean, your father left after the revolution. Religion played no part in our lives growing up. Iranians are very different to a lot of their neighbours in that we define ourselves by our nation. And I think that comes from Iran being such a mishmash of different religions and different races. There's never ever

been an issue of, oh, well, she's marrying this boy and he he's you know a christian and we're muslim that's we're all we are all iranians you know um so the wrong side of the track in in from an iranian is that you've married someone who's got a degree in the humanities um yeah he's an artist what can we say um the wrong side and also iranians are quite um they see themselves so different from Arabs. And I think that the clash of the titans of culture happens there. There's always been like a real rivalry between Iran and the Arabs. Like if I say something like, oh, this was invented by Arabs, my mum will be very quick to correct me if it was actually the Persians, as though it's her actual granddad who invented chess.

Mathematics. That was my uncle. That was your uncle Hassan. Always counting, every day, counting everything. So Justinian becomes the emperor in 527. He's married. They're a couple. So I think it's hard to look back and try to compare it to the sort of posh and becks or who's the equivalent today.

But I think that when Justinian takes the throne, everyone sits and waits to see what's going to change. Classic Roman historians will know that that's the bit where people start getting murdered and bumped off because you're very precarious. If you look like you're a threat, if you make any sudden movements, you catch the emperor or empress's eye, either for getting too many favours

or because you look like you might have a pop at the throne yourself. I mean, it's a bit like choosing a prime minister here. You know, it seems so obvious to people who want the job that that's what they're born for. I can't think of anything worse. No, I can't. I can't return an email, let alone rule an empire. What would your policies be if you were queen of the empire?

I'd have someone else open up all my posts. That's not a policy. Is it not? OK. Oh, I don't really know. It all seems like far too much responsibility. It's hard enough getting the packed lunches sorted in the morning. I'm so happy for someone else to sort of make the decisions while I have a little day... But you're the people we need.

It's the psychopaths who crave power. I'll have my own little daydream about falling in love with a swine farmer and a man with a dancing bear. This is all very bizarre. So, Shabina, listening to you, you've 100% got my vote. Yeah, thank you. I'll tell you why. Because actually the trick

to being a good emperor is to then find people to do that then they literally have people whose job titles in this period are chief letter opener for the ruler it's all about hiring the right people and a really good ruler doesn't do any of the work that's the whole that's the whole key is to find other people who are really good and and get them to do it for you. But it's that need to be the boss, that need to be the ruler, I think, that all rulers, if they could be Bruce Springsteen instead, they would. Ironically, he actually is the boss. He is the boss. There you go. That's why it came into my mind. There's something psychopathic about wanting to rule.

And no matter how lovely someone seems, how incredible someone seems, you cannot judge their character until they're in charge. And then it's too late. And then it's too late, and I think it changes people. So I shall not become emperor of the second Byzantine empire. Ruin my day. I am very disappointed, Shappi.

I really was looking forward to your reign of benign power. The first thing that Justinian does when he gets in, actually, is he hires a clever clogs called Tribonian, which is a great name. And he's in charge of legal reform. Justinian's big legacy for history is that he reforms the law. Yeah, it is. And anybody who is a lawyer or has wanted to study law,

they talk about Roman law. They're basically talking about Justinian, who hires this guy Trebonian. I'm thinking if you want a third son, I'm thinking Flavius, Cassius and Trebonian. That's a nice combination of the three. Trebonian. Trebonian.

Sounds too much like trombone. He'll get called trombone in the playground, won't he? Could be worse. You've got to think about these things when you have a child. Justinian oversees a kind of reconfiguration of these legal reforms. And I suppose we all know that that's hugely important. If things work fairly, then they work well. The question then is why has no one done or thought of doing this beforehand?

Yeah. And what's very interesting is that at the same time this is going on, we have Khavad, the emperor of the Sasanian emperor next door in Persia, and reforms in China doing very similar kinds of things. Oh, really? And in South Asia too.

So it's whether this sort of professionalization of what's going on is because other people are doing it as well. But I mean, the gathering together of laws is also a threat because everyone loves being able to fit between the cracks. And when you start tightening things up and saying this is how things work,

then people's noses get put out of joint, which is what happens under Justinian's gathering. So Trebonian becomes very unpopular. And in fact, for a bit, Justinian has to push him out to one side before quietly bringing him back. I'm sorry to interrupt you. How did they gauge how unpopular they'd become? Like if there wasn't any Twitter or anything? And then when you talk about the loyalty of the army,

how did they communicate with their people? Twitter mainly. Sixth century, you put it on a tablet, use your tablet and it takes three years for anyone to find it. It's a good question how rumours and gossip and ideas flood through the system. I'd have thought it's a bit like any, you know, like Parliament today, the sniffs and the smells and the whispers of who's up, who's down, who's got skeletons in their cupboard. I think it's that

there are people who you don't want to cross and if they start to worry and start to complain, then they can become very powerful enemies. Did they have publications? Did they have anything, any communication other than verbal? Yeah, there's letter writing, there's texts that are being written all the time.

But before printing presses, they don't get distributed very widely. The question is about who can actually read. Most contact anybody would have is putting your hand in your pocket and taking out a coin that has the emperor's image on it. That's how people knew what you looked like, occasional mosaics or statues being put up. Yes, statues and mosaics.

In the big cities, there would be perhaps a Senate House or an area that people might go to where proclamations might be read out. I have to say, when we first moved to England, my mum used to take us to Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park. Really? It blew her mind that people could stand on an orange crate and say whatever they wanted and no one would shoot them. That was our Sunday afternoon treat. Justinian does get a fairly obvious sign from the people when they basically set fire to the city. So there are

these four chariot teams are all at each other's throats. I suppose you call it friendly rivalry. Although again, alcohol, competition, over-excited supporters on the lash on a Saturday night. Hooligans, yeah. Things kick off. And the Nicaragua stem from the fact that there's been a sort of kick-off between

supporters of the Blues and the Nicarayans stem from the fact that there's been a sort of kickoff between supporters of the blues and the greens and in the in the early 530s there's an attempted intervention the whole thing goes to pot and as you say there are riots inside the hippodrome where there are tens of thousands of people gathered and that then spills over into the streets and in the same way of where does where does gossip and rumors come from how do you actually impose police order when you've got mobs rampaging, setting fire to things, knocking things over? But the level of destruction is obviously extremely profound. And, you know, we think in terms

of suddenly tens of thousands of people being killed during these riots. Shappi, you must have played some rough clubs in your time. Ever been in one where you think, hang on, there's a riot about to kick off? I remember once there was a comedy club in Manchester, and there was a guitar comic on the stage, and this fight broke broke out and chairs were being thrown wow and the guy just carried on plinky plonky comedy song and i got booed off stage in belfast once that that was

quite intense and there have has been times where someone in the audience has kicked off and the comedians felt threatened but comics don't get off the stage when there's trouble. We just can't you've got to do your time no matter what. So yeah there is a certain gladiatorial aspect to my job for sure. When I was being booed in Belfast I did not get off stage. I think I booed back for 20

minutes so I'm getting paid for 20 minutes I'm not getting off here and also there's that defiance as well Is there an infectious if you're having a bad night it sort an infectious, if you're having a bad night, it sort of spreads, and if you're having a good night, it's viral too? No, if the comic before you has a really bad night, you know you're going to smash it. Oh, really?

Yeah. So if comedians refuse to get off stage when everything's on fire, does Justinian go, oh, hang on a minute, there's tens of thousands of people burning down the city, maybe i should back off on the tax reform and the legal reforms and and all that or does he go actually know what i'm the boss send in the troops kill everyone it's worse the story goes he tries to run justinian uh thinks that his life's in danger and you know to be perfectly honest why bother it's it's it's it's too much hassle for nothing uh theodora is the one who then uh takes

control and says uh you've got to have some backbone for god's sake man and then she has an epic quote from procopius who says that the person who's been emperor should never live in exile and she gets credit for for for putting the bite back in and they sort of they stare it down and it's a moment of huge drama it It would film very well, a couple of episodes. Dear HBO. Dear HBO, we're available. And it's one of the great set pieces of the fact that the person who restores order and

brings it back is this woman from the wrong side of the tracks who performs sex acts. Turns out that she's more imperial than he is. She's one who's able to not just handle difficult decisions but to do it in the face of particularly very male violence because these are rampaging thugs going through the streets who are able to not just handle difficult decisions, but to do it in the face of particularly very male violence, because these are rampaging thugs going through the streets who are setting fire to stuff.

And one of the things that's burned down is the very famous building now, the Hagia Sophia, which is a Roman temple initially, and then they rebuild it, is that right? There's a church on that site, which is important, but that gets burnt down. And Justinian, very soon after the Nicarayans, provides funding to build an enormous cathedral. important but that gets burnt down and uh justinian very soon after the nicorates uh provides

funding to build an enormous cathedral and the church of haggisophia i think i'm right in saying for a thousand years from 1500 530s until 1500 is the biggest christian um church in the world wow i think i'm right saying with this amazing suspended roof and ceiling, wonderful mosaics. But it's a real statement that this is God's city and this is what an emperor does, is that he endows places of worship to bring back God's protection because the Nicaraguan, if they show anything visibly and politically, it's that the emperor may not be the chosen person to be running the empire at this time.

He sounded slightly reluctant to be Emperor initially, but now he's on a bit of a mission. He's thinking, come on then, let's go get all the stuff back that Rome has lost. And he's got a general. Do you want to know the name of the general, Shappi? Yes, please. Because you might want to name your kid after him. I'm not getting any younger. Belisarius.

Belisarius. He'd got called Belend, wouldn't he? He would get called Belend. Yeah, that's true. Damn it, the trombonist and Belend. 30 years doing that and I never even thought about it. Yeah, that's him. So Belisarius is sort of put in charge of the army. Right, go and sort that out.

And off he goes. And he's trying to reconquer Italy. He's trying to conquer Spain. Does it work? Yeah, it does work. The goths and the... The emos and the... Well, I mean, that's funny.

That's how we get it. Goths and then vandals as well. Just spray-painted graffiti all over everything. That's right, get out of my city. He's quite successful, partly because he's a good general, partly he develops kind of heavy cavalry that uses horses with armour that are absolutely terrifying.

The Goths and the Ostrogoths, who I'm a great fan of, they introduced, amongst other things, the first men in history to just have the tash. Ah, love it. That's the first image anywhere in art. All men are either bearded and covered with facial hair, or not at all.

There's nowhere in between. But the Ostrogoths or the Germans are the ones who do the little pencil tash across the top lip. Are they in the tash? They love the tash across the top lip. The Hitler tash? They love the tash. Oh, goodness, that's what we get it from. In fact, the coins of Theoderich, the king, they do look like a guy who is down to the hotel pool

early to take the towels and to get the best sunlashes. I wonder whose idea it was to have a solo tash without the rest. With a goatee, a man can look, if he's bald, can look upside down. So perhaps that was a consideration. Maybe that was it. I mean, I should have said, by the way, Justinian looked just like Greg.

Hey. Curly head, thin, handsome, and the full beard and tash. I'll take handsome. There we go. That's a rare compliment I usually get. I look like a weasel. That's normally what people say.

That's what they said about Justinian, too. Damn it. Yeah, so he was always working, Justinian, and Belisarius was his general who went off and basically recovered lots of large parts of Italy with a bit of success here and there, and also North Africa. And we disconnect this world today. We think of the Mediterranean as being a place we like to go on holiday,

and we forget that control of the sea and the waterways, and above all, the cities of North Africa, are hugely important in this network of what it means to be, not just successful, but how to drive trade, how to encourage people to exchange with each other. And the cities of North Africa, places like Carthage, are hugely important at this time. It's a real process of reconsolidation.

And if you can impose peace relatively quickly, then suddenly things start to look quite good for you the economy picks up fast and people start to trade and buy and sell things so it's all be going fantastically well and then a bit of a disaster strikes uh shappy can you guess what the huge disaster might be oh blimey it's a big disaster proper Proper, proper big. Someone gets called in to I'm a Celebrity to get me out of here. Would you call that a disaster? Oh, yeah. No. You weren't a disaster.

You were great. I sat quietly on a log until they let me out. My mum won't accept that I came out early. She goes, you were released early for good behaviour, which I like that. It's time served. Yeah, of course. And you know what with I'm a Celebrity? Sorry, I feel terrible talking about I'm a Celebrity in front of you guys.

We should be talking about very weighty subjects. But you get the same money no matter how long you stay in. Oh. So I came out first. And then when you leave, you have to stay in this five-star hotel with your family that they fly out to see you that you've missed. That's an amazing gig. And you're not allowed to go home. to see you that you've missed. That's an amazing gig.

And you're not allowed to go home. So the sooner you leave that programme the more time you have to spend in this five star resort on Australia's Gold Coast. So I won I'm a Celebrity. You absolutely did. Get me out of here. So what happens? What happens? I'm dying to know. A massive plague. A plague? Huge plague.

Massive. What kind of plague? Like with rats? Well, Peter. So in the 530s there are several volcanoes exploding in quite quick succession that brings down global temperatures because it ejects a lot of stone and pumice and chemicals up into the sky, and that lowers global temperatures. And as it happens, amongst the things that happen with climate change, is it changes pathogens. It changes the zoonotic cycle of the bacteria.

Hello. Sorry. Zoonotic cycle of the bacteria hello sorry enzootic cycle yes i think i've seen them live they've supported slipknot i'm pretty sure they are that's a great band name isn't it good evening we're in the cycle it changes the life cycle it changes the life cycle so diseases are mutating not so much mutating as in having the ability to spread quicker as right okay okay and uh the devastation of the plague, we always think about plague being rats and fleas, but plague can also be airborne. People coughing on each other. Yeah, and that can spread too. And the kill rate in some places is 98% plus. Wow. So villages, the doors open, people lying dead in the street, no animals, nothing. In Constantinople, Procopius, who describes this,

all says that there are so many people dying, there's not enough to bury them. And, you know, the numbers of dead are enormous. That's a very, very large... So it's almost a sort of Thanos-level extinction event, if you like Marvel movies. It's huge numbers of people suddenly dead. Justinian catches it, but survives. Well, that's... Or does he? He catches something.

Right, okay. He's got a man flu. He's got the sniffles. I've got the plague! It could be man flu. He does fall ill. We always assume that it must be plague. It could be that he's ill with something else. But certainly the rumours about what is happening, who's in charge, who's left alive,

this suddenly becomes a kind of tricky, odd and a very dangerous, precarious time. Let's talk again about Theodora, because she has some power. She is putting in place laws to protect women. She's closing down brothels. Yeah, that's right. I'm not sure there's much more I can add to that.

I think that there are these laws that come in that are very specific about punishments for rape and for sexual violence and so on. Either this is being introduced by a sort of much more enlightened regime or things that exist already are being written down and codified. But I think that that idea of trying to protect people in society at a time of large-scale death over the plague, at a time when there's near-constant warfare

not just with peoples in Europe and North Africa, but also with the Persians, where in the 530s there's an agreement that there should be an eternal peace between the two empires, which, of course, like all things that are eternal, lasted for less than a decade. But there is, I think, a real

sense that this is a time of reform of consolidation and a need to make things better shappy how would you punish uh someone who complains that his new bride is not a virgin oh wow oh that would be fun wouldn't it um how would i punish someone i think that I would give her a heap of money to move to Honolulu and, I don't know, give him a really dried up old log to get his todger into, see how he enjoys that. Right, okay. Not far off. That's not...

It's certainly involved wood, didn't it? Not far off, yeah. There was one chap who accused his wife of not being a virgin, so Theodore apparently heard about it, had him rolled up in a carpet and whipped. Absolutely. And also, he probably wasn't a virgin, so, you know. Yes, exactly. What's he on about?

So she is taking a role, she's protecting women's lives, she's playing a part, but unfortunately, she dies considerably younger than Justinian. Actually, half of his reign really is alone. He's a grieving widower. Yeah, and it's a funny thing. The plague is a kind of real break point in Justinian. Actually, half of his reign really is alone. He's a grieving widower. Yeah, and it's a funny thing. The plague is a kind of real break point in Justinian's reign

because before we've got the riots, we've got the laws, we've got wars in the West and so on. And then it's like one of those films that the first half is just much more exciting and interesting than the second. I mean, Theodora, she dies in the 540s and Justinian has almost 20 years on his own.

So he's not back on Tinder. He's not looking. He's just like, I miss her. The law of average suggests he probably was. Oh. Did they do monogamy in those days anyway? I mean, he's a Christian, isn't he? He's trying to be a good old moral man.

But there's no new queen. That's the important thing, isn't it? He doesn't remarry and he doesn't sort of go out in the marriage market for some princess. So, Shappi. Yes. How do you think we know about all this stuff? Because people find... Sorry, I'm answering like my children do, you know, when you're searching for the right answer.

And if you say it in a certain tone, because of... When written history finally came about, they were like, do you remember what happened then? Do you remember then what Justin did then? And also, isn't it archaeology plays a big part in this? I don't know, some Indiana Jones shizzle went down. If only we had more Indiana Jones movies set in that part of the world, we might have more popularity.

I could do more in my, so what do you know at the beginning? There obviously is a circulation of manuscripts that are being prepared, produced and protected and in some cases, even today, there's one text that I do a bit of work on from the 12th century that there are 400 different copies of it which is a lot to survive.

And it shows that that must have been very popular and it's a kind of go-to book where people, it's their version of Google they sort of go and fish out and work out who's connected to who so what information gets prioritised tends to be about emperors and decisions and who's done things that are bad

and who's had their noses cut off which is a punishment for insubordination and so they obviously they're a compendia that explain who's who and what's what and given this is one and a half thousand years ago and pre-digital, there are tons and tons and tons and tons of material that's available. And the most important historian probably, and you've mentioned him already, is Procopius.

Now, he officially is writing very favourable stuff, isn't he? When he's on the clock, he's sort of going, oh, Justinian's fantastic and Theodora's wonderfully moral. And yet he has a second book, The Secret History. Yeah, The Anecdota. He takes a wrong turn or feels slighted and then does one of the all-time great historical hatchet jobs. It's like a tell-all, isn't it? There's not a single compliment, there's not a single nice thing. It's poison from top to bottom. And actually that plays a very important role in later ideas about the Byzantine Empire because eventually vicars find it in 18th 9th century England and they think gosh this world must be is all

filled with people lying and having adultery and they'll swans rather they're doing unspeakable things to women and I did that the Byzantines weren't really soldiers they were just as all smoke and mirrors and we shouldn't bother studying them and that's partly to do with finding texts like Procopius where it just, it's such a savage attack that taken out of context, you know, it's like finding someone's diary that has

every single thing you've ever done, only the bad things, and then over-exaggerated. Well, it's come to the end of the podcast in several ways, which means we get to my favourite bit, which is called the nuance window where we unleash our historian and we allow them to go into next level nerdery for two uninterrupted minutes of high level academic chat. The nuance window! Peter, I'm assuming you're going to tell us about why we should give a damn about the Byzantine. I'm going to start with something different, though, which is history is just a terrific thing to study because you get a chance to think about the past and learn about, but being a friend, being a father, being a husband, is to try to understand people's

motivations, to try to understand what they've gone through and how they describe things. So that's my sort of shout out to history. That's why this sort of podcast is so fantastic, to get a chance to not have to give long lectures with slides, but to have a chance to talk about the reality about what what were people doing at that time. As it happens, the Byzantine Empire for me was something that I never learned anything about at school, I hardly anything about it at university. I did a paper in my very last term, where I discovered a world that is all about connections between the between Persia and Russia, what's now Russia, Ukraine, the Caucasus, what's now Turkey,

the Middle East. And I remember the first lecture thinking, gosh, I wish I knew about that region. You know, I wish I knew about these people. And these are people who've got these incredible histories and literatures and cultures and strong opinions about the past too. As it happens in today's world, looking at the map and seeing sort of places like turkey iraq iran saudi arabia and so on uh egypt it would seem to me quite an important part of the world to study anyway for younger people but my experience of it all is it's an absolute joy from start to finish when you read hatchet jobs written one and a half thousand years ago when you read scurrilous rumors about what men or women are up to when you when you hear about riots outside stadiums when the sports has gone wrong and the results have gone the wrong way

you know it's it's like um thinking about the past in full absolute technicolor and for me i i love doing it because if i was doing this about other periods other places i wouldn't be invited on a podcast but because no one knows about the Byzantine Empire, here I am. Perfect. Thank you. Two minutes on the dot. Very precise. Shappi, have we convinced you that the Byzantines are interesting? For a horrible moment, I thought you were going to ask me to speak for two minutes on the Byzantines. Shappi, please speak for two minutes on the Byzantine Empire. I am so... History was the one subject at school, apart from French and English,

that I really, really enjoyed and want to get my teeth into more when my children are older. I genuinely do want to do a history MA. Ooh. Yeah, it'd be quite exciting. But I just need to not be making packed lunches. But 100% I found it very, very interesting. They're stories. They're nothing that sounds like such a cliche thing to say.

They're just stories and we imagine people in the past sort of walking around like, speaking like this, but they were quirky and they were bonkers and they were power hungry. And it's just incredible that we have these resources to look back on and read them and the Byzantine section of

the British Museum will be a lot more interesting now. Lovely. Well, it's time now to see what you've picked up from the podcast. So what do you know now? I'm going to set my little stopwatch. You've got 10 questions. Bagpipes were invented in Iran.

Sorry, can I do a question? Oh, OK. But thanks for that. We're going to start with the first question. So here we go. Three, two, one. What was the occupation for Theodora's dad? A bear trainer. He was. What was Justinian's uncle called? It was Justin. His uncle was Justin. What sport partially caused the Nika riots?

Arson. Arson is not a sport. It's definitely not advertised on the BBC. Some parts of London, yes. It was the chariot racing. Of course, that would have been a good guess. What was the name of the general who reconquered parts of Italy? We'll take his nickname.

Yeah. Belland. Belland. Belisarius the Belland, yes. Belisarius. In 542, Justinian caught a nasty bit of man flu, but it was actually what disease? It was the plague. It was the Justinian plague.

What was Theodora's alleged job as a young woman, scandalously? She worked in a brothel. Apparently so. Justinian and Theodora got married a couple of years before what happened to him? Before he got a bit older. Yeah, he became emperor. Two years before he became emperor. Trebonian was the brainy advisor who helped Justinian introduce what new important text?

What new important text? The legal system. The legal system. The legal system. The law code. The law code. Justinian was born roughly what part of the world? Turkey. The Balkans. The Balkans.

Close, close. Southern Balkans. And famously, what beautiful building, now turned into a mosque, don't tell the sun, caught fire during the Nika riots and had to be rebuilt? Oh, it was the big, big, big, you were talking about a few moments ago, the big, beautiful church. Yes, biggest church in the world at the time. It's called the

Hodge something. Yep. The Hagia Sophia. Yes, Hagia Sophia, which means in Greek Holy Wisdom. And also, may I show off my linguistic skills? Patlajan means aubergine in Turkish. Extra point for you there.

So I'm going to give you six out of ten, which is a very respectable score for a very difficult bit of history. So well done. Well, I think we've more or less come to the end of the podcast there. I hope you've enjoyed it, Shappi. I'm sorry for putting you on the spot. I did enjoy the aubergine. I know, I've had a lovely time. It was like being at school again when I remember the wrong there. I hope you've enjoyed it, Shappi. I'm sorry for putting you on the spot. I did enjoy the aubergine. I know, I've had a lovely time.

It was like being at school again when I remember the wrong bits. And Peter, thank you so much as well for joining us. I mean, Justinian and Theodora, are they hashtag couple goals?

Solid gold. Solid gold, Shappi. It all seems like too much hard work. Give me a gardener any day. If you've enjoyed today's podcast, please do share it

with your pals, leave a review online, come say hello on Twitter if you want, and make sure to subscribe to You're Dead to Me so you don't miss any more episodes.

Let me say a huge thank you to my lovely guests in History Corner, Professor Peter Frankopan from the University of Oxford, and in Comedy Corner, stand-up royalty, Shappi Korsandi.

And to you at home, join me next time for more hot goss from the past, hopefully with less weird stuff about having sex with swans. Anyway, for now, bye! You're Dead to Me was a Muddy Knees media production for BBC Radio 4. The researcher and scriptwriter was Emma Neguse,

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