You're Dead to Me - King James VI of Scotland

Episode Date: February 26, 2021

Greg Jenner is joined by historian Dr Anna Whitelock and comedian Larry Dean in 16th-century Scotland to meet King James VI, the first Stuart king to rule Scotland and England simultaneously. He is renowned for his translation of The Bible, his belief in witches and for being the primary target of the Gunpowder Plot. But is that really how we should remember him?

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. All day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, a Radio 4 history podcast for everyone. For people who don't like history, people who do like history and people who forgot to learn any at school. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster and I'm the chief nerd on the BBC comedy show Horrible Histories. You may have also heard my other podcast, Homeschool History, although that one's mostly for the kids.

So what do we do on this show? Well, here we serve up a steaming bowl of historical hot pot with silly puns for pudding. Delish! And today we're grabbing our Bibles and tobacco pipes to journey back over 400 years to blow the story wide open on King James VI of Scotland who would become, spoiler alert, James I of England. And to help me do that I am joined by two very special guests. In History Corner she's a historian, author and broadcaster and

is the head of the history department at Royal Holloway, University of London. You'll have seen her on TV as a royal expert and commentator on the Tudors and the monarchy and politics and all the other stuff and public history, of course. And you may have read one of her books. It is, of course, Dr Anna Whitelock. Hi, Anna. So happy to have you here. Hello. Thank you for having me. And in Comedy Corner, he's an award winning comedian and writer. He was crowned Scottish Comedian of the Year when he was just 23.

And since then, his star has continued to rise as well as his hysterical stand up. You may have heard him on Radio 4's Don't Make Me Laugh or caught one of his many TV appearances on shows like Michael McIntyre's Big Show, Live at the Apollo, Mock the Week and Roast Battle. It's Larry Dean. Hi, Larry, how are you? I'm good, cheers, mate. How are you? I'm all right. Larry, how are you with history? Did you love it at school? Pretty much knowing nothing. It's strange because I've done pub quizzes before and whenever anything's come up, I think the Scottish system is very different Than what the English one is

Because my school didn't really teach as much About what happened in the UK It would always just be like ancient Greece and stuff Or like the Greek gods or Roman gods and stuff I think it's just so it can seem like These guys were superheroes This will be more entertaining for you to learn about Than someone who ruled over you.

All right, well, that's no problem. I mean, by the end of this show, you're going to be an expert. So, what do you know? That leads us on to the first segment of the podcast. It's called the So What Do You Know? And you know what? I think you might know a bit about James VI of Scotland or James I of England.

You might know that his mum was Mary Queen of Scots and you've probably heard of the Guy Fawkes plot against him, the gunpowder plot. If you've already listened to the You're Dead to Me episode on the European witch craze, you'll know that James was well into his witch hunting. And of course, there was also that very famous book, the King James Bibble. Sorry, Bible. In terms of pop culture, you may have seen Robert Carlyle's terrific turn as King James in Gunpowder, Treason and Plot. Or perhaps you saw Alan Cumming's exceptionally extra rendition of James in Doctor Who. But what else should we know? What else should we remember, remember about King James VI of Scotland slash James I of England?

Besides Gunpowder, Treason and Plot and witches. Well, let's find out, shall we? First of all, Dr. Anna, can you give us a super speedy introduction to Scotland in the mid 1500s? Well, what isn't going on? Since the beginning of the 16th century, all the monarchs who come to the throne have been under two years old. So not ideal. That means minority rule. And it means a series of power hungry regents who are running the show. Scotland is hovering between the English and the French who are fighting for

control of it. We've got political turmoil and we've got religious turmoil as Scotland undergoes a Protestant reformation inspired by Calvinism, which is the hardline Protestantism. It leads to all kinds of big changes, widespread iconoclasm, that's all the smashing of images, and the power of the bishops is reduced so in a nutshell it's all kicked off in scotland no what happened back then not now what's happening what yeah yeah yeah well does it sound familiar larry yes only do fromage i'm on the french side to be honest all hail king baby we've got a baby king at the moment. We've not told you guys about it yet. So James, his family situation is a little unusual, isn't it, Anna?

I think we'd say complicated. He was born in Edinburgh Castle on the 19th of June in 1566. He was the only son of Mary, Queen of Scots, and her second husband, Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley. Their marriage was falling apart and Mary wasn't doing very well as queen either. Her position was very insecure. And then just two months before James was born,

his father, Lord Darnley, decides to throw his lot in with the rebels against his wife, Mary, and was involved in the murder of Mary's private secretary, David Rizzio. He's then born and he's baptised at Stirling Castle. Larry, do you want to guess what the customary tradition at a baptism that Mary refused to let happen? I've been baptised as well, so I should probably know what you're... as if I was going to remember. I mean, you were there, but you were quite young.

I thought it was just that they put water on your head and then say a couple of prayers on it. I didn't know if there was anything else. Maybe she refused for him to wear some weird gown or something that they make you wear. A bit worse than that, actually. The tradition was the archbishop would spit in the baby's mouth, which is not very Covid safe. No, it is. But Mary Queen of Scots was like, no, you're not doing that. But that is not the most traumatic thing that happens to young James, because then his dad has something of an accident.

Indeed, his dad, Lord Darnley, is murdered. He's blown up at Kirko Field in Edinburgh in February 1567. And Mary moves on to her next husband, who just to make things a little bit more complicated, is actually a suspect in her previous husband's murder yep this is 16th century eastenders so mary's next marriage is not very popular particularly with the protestant rebels they arrest her and they imprison her in uh lochleven castle and she never sees james again so he's a baby and already his dad's been exploded and his mum has been arrested. What happens to him then? Is he being raised by members of the court, family, friends? Is he just toddling about on his own? What's going on? Well, probably a bit of both, but officially he's being looked

after by a series of regents who are in many ways out for themselves. James is really buffeted around by all of these regents. In fact, many of them are murdered, including his paternal grandfather. He finally gets some power when he's a bit older, in the mid-1580s, but not for long. He's captured, he's imprisoned for a year by two earls in what is known as the Ruthven Raid. That was in 1582. He was only 12. He's been captured. He's had many of his regents murdered around him. The boy's got issues, let's just say. Larry, James comes to the throne aged one. Would you argue that's a good age for a king, or do you think that's a little young?

It'd probably be better than what you get now. Because they're not going to ask you for money. To keep a kid happy, all you need to do is just give him a few toys and that. Three monarchs in a row who are babies when they are crowned. That's because their life expectancy is so low up here. Let's talk about some of his hobbies. Larry, how do you reckon a teenage king spends his time? I don't know, because he's been telling me about Catholic Protestants, so he must have been maybe a Celtic Rangers fan.

He's a king, so he's a Rangers. No, James wasn't very sporty, actually. He was a bit of a swat, I guess. He actually really liked studying and reading, learning languages. We're talking Greek and Latin, French as well. He also liked composing poetry, reading the classics, translating the Bible, the kind of stuff you used to do, Larry? poetry, reading the classics, translating the Bible, kind of stuff you used to do, Larry? Well, I mean, imagine being king and being bullied in school. That's quite a feat. He's not got that many friends, but there is one friend on the scene and he does write an early poem about his friend called Esme Stewart, who is the Earl of Lennox. Anna,

this sounds more of a crush than a friendship, doesn't it? Yeah, special friend, I think we'd say. Definitely a bit of a crush. This didn't go down very well with the Protestant nobles. They began to notice the public displays of affection between James and Lennox, and they weren't very happy. They alleged that the Earl went about to draw the King to a carnal lust. So yeah, definitely more than friends. And so they imprisoned James and they forced Lennox to leave Scotland. This relationship had to end.

Now James, as you can imagine, was pretty gutted. People don't use the word gay back then, but he clearly has a big, strong romantic crush on a fella and writes love poetry about him so you know i think we're fairly clear there aren't we i always get the thing of like if i meet someone english and then they find out i'm scottish and then they go oh do you know this person and also because i'm gay and then whenever i meet someone and i tell them that i'm gay and then they go oh do you know this person and it's also gay i'm'm actually thinking, King James, King James. I might have met him in the bushes somewhere along the way, though.

He's interested in the beautiful men at court and he's writing them love poetry. And he's a bit gangly, he's a bit awkward. He doesn't seem to fancy women. But one of the ways he does try to assert his political authority, he passes through what's called the Black Acts in 1584. And what do these do, Anna? Well, as the name suggests, they weren't welcomed. These were laws that were imposed on the Scottish church, which is known as the Kirk. And they were basically James's attempt to impose royal

authority over those religious institutions. So you can imagine black was not a good colour. This was not what the church wanted. But this reflected, you know, James's belief, and this was absolutely core to him, that he was king, answerable only to God. His mum, Mary Queen of Scots, had been alive this whole time, but she had been a house arrest in England for years and years. And then finally, Queen Elizabeth I orders her execution. The odd moment, I suppose, is that although his mum's been killed by Elizabeth, he's now sort of in pole position to be Elizabeth's heir, isn't he? He is. He's the godchild of Elizabeth. So he's next in line to the English throne if Elizabeth doesn't have an heir. And by this point, she's in her 50s. So the chances of getting an heir is pretty slim and she's not married. So it looks like James will succeed. However,

Elizabeth refuses to name him as an heir. She decides she doesn't want everybody looking to Scotland and looking to James. She wants all eyes on her. And it's not until on her deathbed that she probably, not definitely, it's another story, but probably names him as her heir. So he spends his whole life just going,

come on, give me the job. But she refuses until literally her last breath. And the other problem he's got, of course, is he's a king. His job as king is to have children. Obviously, we know that he fancies the fellas, really, but he's going to do his job. So in 1589, in order to stop people worrying that he's a secret Catholic, he decides to get engaged to the very Protestant Anne of Denmark. She's a princess, 14 years old. He's 23. But they are going to have seven kids together. And in order to marry her, James decides he's going to sail to Denmark to go and pick her up. And of course, it's a rough ride in all kinds of ways, rough storms. And this, he suspects, is some kind of curse by witches to drown them. Larry, do you want to have a guess at how the witches have cursed him?

They've given him a 14-year-old bud. I've not really heard much about his life so far that I'm like, oh, that must have been easy. You know what I mean? It's like, what else could they have given him? His mum hated him. He was gay in a time that it wasn't okay to be gay. He's got a 14-year-old wife

who he probably doesn't want to be with because it's not a man. And then the witches try and drown him. It's a busy life, isn't it? According to the stories, the witches had tied a cat to a dead man with a kitchen hook and then had thrown him in the sea. And that had caused the storms, which nearly sunk their ship on the way back. This is James now discovering that he's got a real passion and his passion is witch hunting. It's good to have a hobby. The most

famous trials are the North Berwick witch trials, aren't they, Anna? This is where he shows up in person to interrogate a supposed witch. Yeah, absolutely. James played the role himself, asking the questions and interrogating the women such as Agnes Sampson, for example. the questions and interrogating the women, such as Agnes Sampson, for example. And this kicked off a whole witch craze of persecution. During the years 1590 to 1662, it's estimated that about 1500 people were killed in Scotland on the charge of witchcraft. And most of those were women. Scotland's population at the time was just under a million and james also ever the thinker ever the writer decides that he's gonna write his own book his own treatise on magic and witchcraft which he calls the demonology which is published uh in 1597 so uh one for the kindle larry

honestly as well i've never like this is interesting because i i obviously know mary queen of scots i didn't know obviously much about her kids or whatever, but I never knew anything to do that there was witches in Scotland because usually the evil ones who cast spells on you are in Westminster. Yeah. Although he interrogated Agnes Sampson and she was burned at the stake, he also sometimes would go, no, I don't think she's a witch. I've listened to the evidence and I think she's innocent. Let her go. So he was a man who

believed witches existed, was convinced the witches had tried to drown him and his wife by throwing a cat and a dead man in the sea. But he was also going to make sure that the standards of evidence was good enough to execute people. It is weird. He's a thinker. In his mind, it's rational. As you say, it's not like random persecution. And he writes also two books on the theory and art of being a king. You too can run your own monarchy. Just read my latest pamphlet. It's called The True Law of Free Monarchies. And the other one is a Greek title that I won't pronounce. I mean, this is the first time a king has written anything for 600, 700 years, probably. I mean, Alfred the Great's the last one I won't pronounce. I mean, this is the first time a king has written anything for 600, 700 years, probably. I mean, Alfred the Great's the last one I'm aware of.

Yeah, and he writes a letter, a book, Basilicandoron, actually for his eldest son, Prince Henry. And believe it or not, when he becomes king of England, this becomes a big bestseller because everybody's like, oh, OK, we want to know about this king. Let's find out what he's like. So suddenly Basilicandoran gets printed in huge numbers circulated around england and abroad so for the first time people are able to read about their king and of course for the english

when he suddenly ascends to the throne this is great for them because they get an insight into who's coming down to rule them i can can't imagine somebody taking over as Prime Minister or whatever nowadays and me going, right, I'll read their book just to know what they're going to do and what they actually think or whatever. You mean you haven't read Boris Johnson's History of Winston Churchill? Well, it's good for keeping the fire going, but I don't think I've ever read a book from a politician. But you've got to remember that, as you say, Larry,

who's going to be king is a big deal to people. This is before television and media. So you take what you can get. And certainly when James begins to process down from Scotland to England, crowds turn out to watch him process through. They want to see what he looks like. They comment on his appearance. They want to know what this Scottish like. They comment on his appearance.

They want to know what this Scottish king and all these Scottish courtiers that he's dragging down to England, what they look like. As you might imagine, some of the English weren't that happy to see Scott's coming down to London. I already know exactly what would have happened when he was going through Glasgow on the way down south. If people were coming out to see him, they'd be like, yeah, he looks like a Protestant as well, doesn't he?

You tell from his eyes. When he goes through Newcastle, the people there celebrate, he fires off cannons and he frees all the prisoners in Newcastle, apart from the murderers, the treasonous and also the Catholics. But he also showers the streets with gold and he does a bit of fancy dress.

Larry, do you want to have a guess on what costume he dressed up in? Mr. Blobby. That'd be amazing. What would he dress up as? It's difficult to know because everybody dresses up as historical figures. You go to a fancy dress as Robin

Hood or whatever. You nailed it. You went straight in. First time. How did you do that? I'm actually very good at history. I don't know if you've noticed this. That's incredible, Larry. You just off the cuff just answered it. You wear your knowledge lightly.

Oh, God. That's incredible. Isn't it awful that I know that because that's the last cartoon I'd watched. So in your head, are you thinking he looks like a Disney fox? Hold on. So this is 400 years ago.

When was Robin Hood? Robin Hood is a story set in the late 1100s, early 1200s, but it was written about in the sort of 13 and 1400s. So it was a medieval folk tale. Oh, I thought Robin Hood was a couple of hundred years ago. Jesus Christ, man. So he's dressing up as a historical fancy dress, which I can't believe you guessed first time.

That's amazing. I'm enjoying this podcast, but I'm actually excited for it to be over so I can phone my mum and tell her I did something well. In 1603, James VI of Scotland now becomes King James I of England. So he's got two gigs now. It's quite an interesting moment, isn't it, Anna? Because on the one hand, people are like, good, new king. He's a grown-up, he's married, he's got children.

That's a start. But on the other hand, people are like, good, new king. He's a grown up. He's married. He's got children. That's a start. But on the other hand, he is a foreigner. People are pretty sick of the uncertainty that they've lived through for years of having an unmarried postmenopausal queen that was Elizabeth, which was like, it was a dead end. No one knew what was going to happen afterwards. People feared civil war. So at least now they had some certainty.

They had a male monarch and he had a family. So the succession, the future looks secure. However, he was Scottish. And James made no secret of the fact that actually he had a big plan. He wanted to unite England and Scotland. So not just be king of both, but actually formally unite the two countries and create Great Britain. And as you could probably guess, Larry, not everybody was entirely happy about this. The Scots didn't want to play second fiddle to the English, and the English were just like, well, we don't want to become Britons. We just want to remain English. So there was a massive kerfuffle and a debate that went on. Lots of pamphlets were

published. parliament just went into overdrive discussing the union with debates on either side of whether it was a good thing or was a bad thing james was getting really really pissed off with it so in the end he proclaims himself king of great britain anyway and he just says right we're going to have a new union flag larry do you know what the union flag was called? I know what it's called now. The Union Jack. Yeah. Yeah. So do you think that's connected with James at all? Oh, it's Jack shot for James. Yeah. Yeah, it can be. Yeah. There you go. You got it. So his flag was the Union Jack.

So it's the combination of the St. Andrew's cross and the St. George's cross, stick them together. And James brings in this new flag to symbolise this union of the two crowns. But it doesn't work, does it really? He doesn't manage to unite them. It didn't happen. James just had to settle for the title, but really not the reality of united Britain that he wanted. He wants a merger. Everyone's like, no, no, no, two separate kingdoms. So how does that work? Does he base himself in Scotland and rule from there? Does he base himself in Scotland and rule from there does he base himself in London yeah so James has tried to do this whole slogan better together you know the first time around and no one's buying it so that doesn't float but he sets up home in England and of course

he remains king of Scotland and when he leaves Scotland he says to the Scots don't worry you know I'm going to be back often that doesn doesn't happen. He has to turn to, well, snail mail or precisely horses. And we see the setting up of almost a kind of postal service between England and Scotland as horses shuttle back with letters between Edinburgh and London. And James talks about ruling Scotland by the pen. And so he says he will turn every couple of years. He doesn't. He actually returns only once. So you can imagine the Scots aren't really very happy about that. It's a bit like Sean Connery, isn't it?

He's sort of proud Scotsman, but actually he's just sort of living in a lovely Caribbean island playing golf. Larry, can you see the basic problem of a Scottish king who's not in Scotland? Yeah, but he started the link between Scotland and England of like the snail mail and all that.

That must have been the HS1. Never knew about it until now odd that something that happened hundreds of years ago is still being thought about now especially it's really come come up in the past few years i'll tell you what larry it's crazy when we were all the debates in the referendum campaign talking about the falls on the gates the union i was like writing about this in the 17th century. And it's like, oh my goodness, it's the same discussion. It's absolutely the same discussion. If a load of Scots people come down to England,

won't they take all our jobs? Which laws should we impose uniformly? We have different systems. How will it ever work? Should we have a single currency? But the debates are really surprisingly familiar. This is one thing Glasgow just always does no matter what it is Glasgow will always separate it between Protestants and Catholics

so any political movement it's the Catholics that think this way and the Protestants think this way and it's such a tit-for-tat thing because I go to like football games and that and then it's just bizarre that you're watching a football game and someone's thinking about politics during the referendum for scottish independence the rangers fans were pro union because the rangers were protestant and the catholics were pro-independence and i'm like wow that stayed exactly the same for 400 years as well but i'm thinking are these people just historians i'm just really really stuck sticking to it. They've all been reading King James's book. It's so bizarre though, yeah,

because it's a bit like nobody's moved on from it. So James is now King of England. He's obviously in Scotland had to deal with serious religious issues, but he gets to England and, oh my God, the religious issues even worse. In 1604, he gets people together at a big old conference called the Hampton Court Conference. I don't know if you've ever been to Hampton Court, Larry.

It's just outside London. I used to live down in Kingston so I used to drive past it whenever I tried to get on the M25. I don't know why I'm telling you about the M25. Remember the M25? It was about hundreds of years ago.

Which road did you take, Larry? Exactly. That's how King James died. He was just waiting in traffic too long. So the three-day conference at Hampton Court is a really big deal for James. What is he trying to achieve?

But what are the Puritans trying to achieve? And what are the Catholics trying to achieve? The Puritans and the Catholics basically want their own way. James has been a bit canny. So before he became king to try and win friends, he was basically making all kinds of promises left, right and centre to Catholics and Protestants. So the Catholics look to him and go, oh, OK, right. Now's the time to get rid of those Protestants and move the church decisively in a Catholic direction. The Protestants are going, right, we need to now properly get rid of all

these vestiges of Catholicism. Let's just kick out all the Catholic ceremonies and images and go mainstream Protestant. So the Hampton Court Conference is an attempt to try and hear both sides and James to kind of mediate between them. Now, James loves it. He likes being the big I am. You know, he's a thinker. There's quite a lot of theological debate. James is really getting off on it, liking being the centre of attention, but pretty much rejects all the ideas that are being presented to him. He was always going to, really. Yes, he was born a Catholic, but he was raised a Protestant. He likes the idea of bishops, which the Protestants want to get rid of, because actually he likes the idea of kind of bossing them around and ruling through them. So really not much changes. But the one big deal that comes out of the Hampton Court

Conference is a new English translation of the Bible. It's created by 48 translators and it becomes the authorised King James Bible, which I'm sure is right there sitting by your bed. But this becomes a bestseller. This is one of the biggest selling books in the English language. It is huge. It's massive. I really feel like anyone listening to this has to have this point that it will not be nearly as funny as me seeing it because we're talking on zoom right now so we can see each other when and i was talking about the bible i swear to god the light came in to her room and you could hardly see her face it's the honest to god and the light came into your room and it was just going all over the hall. It's in English now.

Angelic Anna, that's what they say. This was the climax for King James. This was his very influential text. And believe it or not, you probably in your chit chat on a daily basis, maybe even use some phrases from the King James Bible. Yeah, a huge bestseller around the world. But it also gave us hundreds of phrases. I've got a little mini quiz here for you, Larry.

Here are five phrases. One of them is not from the King James Bible. OK, so first one, to see eye to eye. The second one is to fly in the ointment. Third one is blind leading the blind. The fourth is cruel to be kind. And the fifth is to give up the ghost which of those is not in the king james bible i think fly in the ointment why do you think that

because i'm thinking cruel to be kind that is basically i went to catholic school and i basically that they may as well just be tattooed on every priest and nun's head and to see eye to eye Jesus had eyes so it's probably in there Jesus had eyes yeah leading the blind blind people

are in the Bible a lot because because Jesus is like helping them and that I mean it sounds so blasé he's pure like helping them and that isn't it

hey man you want a hand and get out the ghost yeah but there's the Holy Ghost in it so there's ghosts in the Bible people are like helping them and that, aren't they? Hey man, you want a hand? And, get out the ghost. Yeah, but there's the Holy Ghost in it, so there's ghosts in the Bible as well. So I think, fly in the ointment,

I don't think there was many flies back then, I don't know. You don't really hear about that in the Bible, do you? I'm like, Jesus, Jesus was having to go through the desert and this fly wouldn't stop annoying him.

So I, I'm going to fly in the ointment. I loved your logic. Unfortunately, Jesus was having to go through the desert and this fly wouldn't stop annoying him. So I'm going to fly in the oven. I love your logic. Unfortunately, it's cruel to be kind, which is from Hamlet. It's in Shakespeare. So yeah, I mean, it gives us hundreds of phrases and we use quite a lot of them quite frequently without realising it. One of the fun things about the King James Bible, it was printed in huge numbers and there were quite a lot of errors in the printing process.

And there's one particular edition called the wicked bible where in 1631 the printer accidentally left out the word not so the the commandment became thou shall commit adultery which is you know as typos go it's quite awkward there's someone going through it and see if he's changed anything else is he like changed parts of it or is he just kind of twiddled with the word it wasn't him personally doing this so he had teams of translators at the universities and so on so it was a massive kind of combined operation so i don't think you need to sort of worry that this is james kind of slipping in a kind of you shall you know love your handsome next door neighbor uh you know you

shall fondle your male friend's knee oh my so i think you can trust it i thought that james did it himself i was actually thinking i was thinking this guy does loads of stuff maybe this is what life is like if you don't have social media you just have so much more free time on your hands as a teenager he did do a little bit of translation didn't he this is a hobby of his but he was he was a bit busy to do the whole thing. It's quite long. Was it only the New Testament or did he do both? It's both, but it's true what you're saying, Greg.

I mean, monarchs actually, even Henry VIII did a bit of translation, read Bible text, did a bit of writing. Elizabeth I, the same. He's obviously angered the Puritans to a certain extent because he hasn't gone hardcore and got rid of the bishops, but he's also angered the Catholics. So this now leads to some plots against him. The first one is called the Bi plot, B-Y-E, also known as the treason of the priests.

This is a scheme devised to basically arrest him and get rid of him and replace him with his cousin called Arabella Stuart. But then, of course, the most famous plot is in 1605 and it's going to happen at Westminster. Larry, do you know this one no I don't yeah you do Larry you do think gunpowder Oh what's his name November gay folks right yeah so and Guy Fawkes was a Catholic conspirator who took the name Guido Fawkes we think about him as like a sort of lone operator but he's one of I I think, 13 conspirators. Yeah. I mean, this, of course, is celebrated today with fireworks, but it was a massive attempted treason. James was there with his wife, Anne, and his eldest son and heir, Prince Henry, as well as all the important people

in the country. And the plan was to blow them all up and then use his youngest daughter Elizabeth as a kind of puppet Catholic queen so yeah the most famous conspirator of course is Guy Fawkes but actually it was a conspiracy that was led by Robert Catesby a name which you might know if you've been watching BBC drama yeah I mean we call him sometimes Catesby or it's spelled with an e after the t Catesby Catesby but uh the reason you might know it is a couple of years ago, the BBC made a drama called Gunpowder, starring Kit Harington from Game of Thrones, who is a direct descendant from Robert Catesby.

But they were all rounded up and executed horribly. So it ended quite nastily for the Gunpowder plotters. Can I ask if this is true? Guy Fawkes, is it true that they did that with his testicles? When the clock goes mong like that, Big Ben, I heard that they put his testicles in between the bit that hits the bell. Where did you hear that from? I can't remember. I don't know if I dream these things or people tell me them. In fairness, there is a rumour, a myth, that Guy Fawkes' testicles were clapped between the bell and the swingy bit

that hits the bell and smushed them. It's not true. Someone wrote it down. It means it's true. If someone writes something down, it's true. I just realised how much I've lowered the tone as well of your telling us about treason. And I've gone, yes, but what about the testicles, Anna? Tell us about the testicles. I don't know. It might be a Scottish stag night activity or something. I'm not sure. So following the gunpowder plot, James comes down pretty hard on Catholics, which in fairness, I suppose, if your dad got blown up, your mum got beheaded, and then people have tried to drown you at sea, and then people have tried to blow you up, you would start to feel a bit like people don't like you very much. He was all about kind of trying to find compromise and keep everybody happy. But,

you know, this time he really did have to go down hard on the Catholics. The Popish Recusance Act was passed and the Oath of Allegiance was instated. Basically, it forbade Catholics from practising law, medicine, joining the military, and demanded that they deny the authority of the Pope. Catholics had to receive the sacrament at an Anglican service, so big deal for them, at least once a year, or they faced fines. This was James now turning the screw on the Catholics and basically preventing them from taking up positions in public life. Did he also make sure that Celtic always got bad referees?

Yeah, that was the other thing. That was it, yeah. I mean, this is not the end of James's troubles with ruling England, because he's used to the Scottish system and then he gets to England. And so he starts to then also really come to blows with Parliament, doesn't he, Anna?

This is mostly to do with money, but it's also just about his role as king. Yeah, sort of sounds a bit familiar. The prime ministers of late basically wanting to do what they want to do and Parliament deciding that it knows better. Well, that was very much the story of James's reign too. James wanted to splash the cash as and when he wanted to. Parliament wanted to control taxation. James believed that basically he could do what he liked. He was answerable only to God alone. And Parliament also decides that it wants more of a role in foreign policy.

And James again thought, you know, foreign policy is my business, nothing to do with you. And Parliament in particular wanted him to get involved on the continent. And James didn't. James was much more inclined to peace. So there really was tension between them. And this, of course, wasn't helped by the fact that James also had lots of personal favourites that he liked to give lots of money to and positions to. Yeah, and from 1611 till 1621, he doesn't even really bother with Parliament. So he's trying his best to just carry on the Scottish way of ruling, which is the king does most of the decision making. Fun fact, the Chancellor of the Exchequer during James's reign was called Sir Julius Caesar.

That's good, isn't it? What a great name. So we know that James and his wife, Anne of Denmark, have seven children. Sadly, four of them die young, but three of them survive. They are Prince Henry, Elizabeth, who will be married off into Bohemia, the Czech Republic now, and then Charles, who will end up ruling. Although James is married and they've had kids,

a fruitful sex life in that regard, he still is into the guys. Yeah. So we know that he had a bit of a thing for a favourite, the Earl of Lennox, when he was young. And then in 1607, his affection turned to a chap called Robert Carr. Now, Robert Carr was young and glamorous and the two became very close. Again, James loved a public display of affection. Didn't seem to be embarrassed by that at all. Carr got rapidly promoted through the ranks. He was given a place on the Privy Council. He was granted the earldom of Somerset. Again, people were not very happy and it all was about to turn sour. And then things went slightly wrong with their relationship

in 1615. Robert Carr was caught trying to murder someone. He was trying to poison an Englishman called Sir Thomas Overbury. That doesn't sound so bad. What a bit of murder between friends. Well, if it's like back in those days, man, I'm assuming that was just kind of like, it wasn't as big a deal as it is now. It was still quite a big deal. I mean, this was Robert Carr who, you know, despite his relationship with James was also married to Francis. The two of them were involved in this poisoning of Sir Thomas Overbury. And it became actually a massive court scandal. And the trial was something that was written up in papers every day.

And people in the country poured over the next bit of news and titillation. But in the end, Francis and Somerset were sentenced to death. But James decides to step in and he does a bit of a presidential pardon. So they got off the hook. But James then moves on to another young hottie called George Villiers. Again, he's relatively posh, but James very quickly promotes him to the Duke of Buckingham. That's a new dukedom, isn't it? Yeah. George Villiers, he is massively on the rise, really high up now as Duke of Buckingham, the top upper echelons of the nobility. Their relationship is incredible,

and they wrote letters to each other. Check this out, Larry. I mean, he writes one letter to George Villiers, and he says, and so God bless you, my sweet child and wife, and grant that ye may be a comfort to your dear dad and husband, James R. James called Buckingham a steenie as a reference to St Stephen, who allegedly had the face of an angel. And he wore Buckingham's picture on a blue ribbon next to his heart if they were apart. What do you make of that? He calls him sweet child and wife, and then he signs off your dear dad and husband. Oh, see, I even got confused with that when he him sweet child and wife and then he signs off your dear dad and husband oh see i even got confused with that when he says sweet child and wife because i was even thinking hold on is he writing to his child and wife and then bragging about his boyfriend i was a bit like wow what a

weirdo why would you do that it's like oh and sometimes like when you accidentally copy someone into the wrong email yeah that's a bit odd i find that as odd as when you know when couples call each other a baby i'm like why would you want that to be a thing you know i mean james is in love with the duke of buckingham he's you know they've got a really intense intimate relationship there james is infatuated with this 21 year old who is you know fresh face beautiful but not only is clearly won the king's affections what really pisses off nobles at court is that he's also getting a lot of power and a lot of influence.

They don't like that at all. I wonder if it was the same back in those days of like James had a group of girls around him going, no, I don't believe, don't text back straight away. He's love-bombing you, play hard to get. It's so obvious, you're wearing his picture. It's too obvious. Yeah, exactly.

But it's probably like too much, especially doing it when it's illegal. But there's a bit of me going, oh, I wish my boyfriend did that. Presumably Queen Anne is just sort of like, OK, I guess this is the situation. Do we know how the Queen feels that her husband clearly fancies guys you know what we'd love to know I mean she's a pretty remarkable woman in herself and she's a real cultural patron so she's set up her own court and household at Somerset House she's doing her thing she comes to court when she needs to come to court her and James don't see that much of each other but by and large she seems to kind of just sort of go along with it. Fair enough. But the Duke of Buckingham does piss off Parliament a huge amount. Not only is he

getting all these jobs, he's also actually quite inept. Later on, he's going to completely fail as equivalent of Prime Minister. But the major thing we have to get to sort of quickly here really is what's going on in Europe. Quite a funny story, I think, of the Duke of Buckingham, Steeney, as James likes to call him, being sent off to Spain on an undercover mission with Prince Charles. They're off to the Royal Court of Spain. What's that about? This seriously is a bizarre episode. There's a big war going on known as the 30 Years War. James is like, no, don't want to get involved. And parliament are going, we want to get stuck in. And then it's made even worse because the people that are involved in the war are actually a family. It's his daughter, Elizabeth, who's

married Frederick of Bohemia at war with the Spanish. And so they look to James, son-in-law looks to father-in-law and daughter looks to dad for help. And James is still like, yeah, not really. I've got a much better plan. I'm going to bring about peace everywhere in Europe. I'm going to bring everyone together, not through war, but through marriage. And what I'm going to do is I'm going to marry one of my children to a Protestant and one of my children to a Catholic. And so it's all like balanced out and, you know, even Stevens. And so he's determined that his son, Charles, is going to marry the Infanta Maria Anna of Spain. The Catholic will put pressure on the Spanish and they will then stop being at war with his other daughter and son-in-law. So off Charles goes to Spain on this undercover mission with Buckingham.

So Buckingham, the King's favourite, is now, he's kind of befriended the King's son, Charles, here as well. So they go off to Spain dressed in fake beards and they go by the name of Jack and John Smith, which is just so rubbish, don't you think, Larry? It's like, come up with a kind of name that's not yours, that's a common name. Oh, I know I'll be be Mr Smith and I'll be Mr Smith too so they go incognito to Spain the plan is to negotiate this marriage with the Spanish and basically it's ridiculous because Charles is going yeah yeah yeah it's no problem we can grant religious tolerance for Catholics and then it all becomes really clear that of course this isn't

going to happen and the marriage proposal the marriage alliance is a complete sham charles has to come back to england without his catholic bride much though to the jubilation of england and parliament who are like hurrah hurrah we hate the spanish we hate catholics brilliant james your plan for marriage alliance has been foiled let's now go to war james you can see like, how do I get myself out of this challenging scenario? I know, I'll marry off my children to mortal enemies who hate each other. That's going to be great at Christmas.

Am I the only one that actually thought, oh, that's not a bad idea, actually. I actually thought, that's not a bad, because I thought, well, what else can you do? Like, it's difficult to stop a civil war because like the middle ground is a bit like, well, they don't want to meet in the middle. So they're a bit like, well, they don't want to meet in the middle. So they're a bit like,

well, if you go with the kind of PR stunt, so if he was to marry off his children, think of the way that people have been about the kids of the royal family at the moment, and we love seeing them get married. So it probably would actually have, could not have had a bit of a good impact, you know what I think? Hey, look at you with your PR strategy.

I know a lot about PR. I'm not even gay or Scottish. I just knew it would sell well. You know what, Larry? You're spot on, really. I mean, this was what marriage was used for at the time. But there's another interesting thing happening under James's watch too. In the New World, Jamestown,

one of the first ever colonies in America. And it was named in honour of King James. It doesn't start out great, a bit starvation and death, but it does gradually turn into a quite important part of the new British Empire really. Yeah, this is one of the things that's overlooked about James because everybody gets obsessed about the gunpowder plot and maybe the witches. But actually, whilst Elizabeth is given all the plaudits for all the efforts to colonise the New World, her efforts largely failed. But Jamestown was the first permanent English colony in North America.

It was founded by Captain John Smith, another John Smith. Are you sure it wasn't Duke Buckingham with a fake beard? Like, hello, I'm John Smith. No, no, no, no. This was properly Captain John Smith. John Smith. No, no, no, no. This was properly Captain John Smith. So this was 1607. So in the early part of James's reign, finally, the English get a bit of territory in North America. And as you say, Greg, it did have a bit of a rough start. But finally, it managed to get some investment. There were all these kind of national lotteries set up to fund it in England. But actually, the big important crop that became the lifeline for Jamestown any ideas what it was Larry? Oh a smoke like what's it called tobacco yeah tobacco because

it sounded a bit familiar when you were saying about the colony was this when they already discovered America but they were bringing people over and they kept going back and everybody was dead. That's Roanoke yeah so Roanoke was just a little bit earlier and then Jamestown is 1607 this is where we get the story of Pocahontas or otherwise known as Matawaka if you want to know more about that you can listen to the episode of homeschool history about her but it just about clings on and then they discover tobacco grows really well and that's the saving of the colony because it's it's so lucrative you can sell it and people want to smoke so it's a new hobby that comes into England and Europe is smoking pipes smoking tobacco but James not a fan Anna he writes another book so this time what does he write about he writes about tobacco it's called a counter blast to tobacco he wrote for example

tobacco smoking was a custom loathsome to the eye, hateful to the nose, harmful to the brains and dangerous to the lungs. And he thought it would be the downfall of England. He thought it was literally poison. I just want you to list that off of going, it's loathsome to the lungs, it's bad for everything, it's going to be the downfall of England, but it looks really cool. I love the idea of like a sort of picture of him on the side of the cigarette packet just sort of going, it's loathsome to the lungs and terrible to the nose. Please don't smoke it. Yours sincerely, the King.

So King James dies in 1625 at the age of about 58. He's been in poor health for a few years and this death has been coming for a while, not least because, well, Anna, he's a bit of a boozer, right? Indeed, he doesn't, but he does drink. And so, yeah, fainting fits, excessive drinking, and ultimately he gets dysentery and, yep, dies at 58. And his son, Charles, takes over. We've heard quite a lot so far, Larry. What's your sort of general take so far on what you've heard? Right, Jamesy. Aye, he seems like a good guy, man. He seems all right.

When I'm hearing about it, I'm like, well, this guy got a lot of stuff done. So much stuff even today is linked to him. Because the Bible stuff, America, Parliament,

Catholic prodding stuff, all that jazz. I've been listening. I've been listening. See, we told you you'd learn some stuff. The nuance window! Well, that leads us on to my favourite part of the pod,

which is called the nuance window. This is where Larry and I catch our breath for two minutes and we allow our expert, Dr Anna, to talk uninterrupted on anything that she wants to say. Without much further ado, the nuance window. James has gone down in history as the wisest fool in Christendom, so apparently said the then King of France, Henry IV. He was a slobbering idiot with a tongue too large for his mouth, forever fiddling with his codpiece and swearing and cursing. However, that is the malicious caricature of Sir Anthony Weldon,

who James had sacked from his position at court. So basically, Weldon's writing with an axe to grind. However, Weldon's view influenced generations of historians who dismissed the significance of James's reign, and at best saw it as little more than laying the seeds of the English Civil War, which followed in the reign of King Charles I. But in recent years, history's had a rethink. James is now applauded to some extent for his vision of Anglo-Scottish union, even though he didn't achieve it. He's also applauded for seeking peace and indeed the reunion of Christendom,

although again again perhaps rather idealistic. He also of course succeeded in establishing a permanent settlement in America but his reign also saw widening horizons. Fledgling Britain wants to re-engage with the continent and as James would have it now wants to go. So English trade moves beyond Europe to new markets in Asia, as well as in America. Ships set out from London now all across the world, Russia, Persia, Africa, India, China, Japan. And in 1615, the first official ambassador is sent to India. And the first factory in 1613 is opened in Japan. It doesn't last for long, but it's there for 10 years. So in short, James's reign is more than about just gunpowder, plague and riches. It was global in

ambition and significant for its failures and its successes. And James was definitely more serious and intelligent than Sir Anthony Weldon wanted us to believe. Thank you, Anna. Did he support Celtic or Rangers? That's all I need to know, and I can tell you if he was good or not. King James, in conclusion, has been somewhat maligned, and he was pretty smart, politically quite astute. Obviously, not very kind to women, witches and Catholics, but perhaps more of an interesting king than we give him credit.

So what do you know now? So, Larry, it's time for the So What Do You Know Now? This is the quickfire quiz to see what you've learned in the episode. I can see you're deep breathing. Getting ready. The light's going on as well. Yeah, exactly. Got my light bulb and my head ready. All right, here we go then. Question one.

What weird baptism custom did Mary, Queen of Scots, refuse to let happen to her baby? Oh, she didn't let the bishop spit in the mouth of the kid. Absolutely right. Question two. Name one of the foreign dead languages that James learned to speak. Greek. Greek is right, yeah. Which Protestant princess did James marry in 1589? Annabelle. Ann, Ann. We'll take Ann, we'll take Ann. Annabelle, yeah. Which Protestant princess did James marry in 1589? Annabelle. Anne, Anne.

We'll take Anne, we'll take Anne. I know it. Question four. James was personally involved in what type of legal trials in North Berwick? Oh, which ones in North Berwick? That's right, yeah. He was there to interrogate Agnes Sampson. Question five.

On his procession from Edinburgh to England to be crowned, he freed many prisoners in which city? Newcastle. It is Newcastle. Question five. On his procession from Edinburgh to England to be crowned, he freed many prisoners in which city? Newcastle. It is Newcastle. Question six. In 1604, James organised a religious conference at which palace near London? Oh, it's the one that's near Kingston, Hampton Court. Hampton Court is correct. Question seven. The King James Bible was issued in 1631 with a terrible typo

It was called the Wicked Bible What was the typo? He said that you should commit adultery That's right Question 8 Which actor from Game of Thrones was an ancestor of Robert Catesby, the gun-powered plotter? Oh, no, no idea I don't know

This is supposed to be to do with history, not to do with the people nowadays. Sorry, sorry. It's Kit Harington. Question nine. Steenie was the nickname given to George Villiers, James's favourite hottie. What was the dukedom he gave him? I don't even know what a dukedom is, mate.

The title he gave him. Duke of Buckingham. Question ten. What plant did James think would be the ruin of England and a terribly bad for your health, but made him a bunch of money inham. Question 10. What plants did James think would be the ruin of England and are terribly bad for your health but made him a bunch of money in America? Tobacco. It's tobacco.

I'm giving you 8 out of 10 for that. I think that's very good. I think that's a really good run. Well done. Thank you. I listened. Well done, Dave. This is where I go through the previous episodes

and everyone's got 10 out of 10 apart from me. Don't worry. There's plenty of people who've done worse than eight you've done nicely there do i get a blue peter badge for this you do well done larry did great there i hope you've enjoyed uh getting jiggy with jimmy six uh i've had a jolly old time um and if listeners if you want to know more about james the six anti-witchy ways you can have a listen to the european witch craze episode with carrie ad lloyd and professor susanna lipscombcomb. And of course,

if you want to know more about queer history, why not listen to the LGBTQ history episode with Dr Justin Bengry and Susie Ruffell. And remember, if you've had a laugh,

if you learned some stuff, please do share this podcast with your friends or leave a review online and make sure to subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds so you never miss an episode.

So it's a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner, the amazing Dr Anna Whitelock. Thank you, Anna. Pleasure. And in Comedy Corner, the spectacular Larry Dean. Thank you, Larry.

Thank you, mate. Thanks for having us. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we hitch a ride down the highway of history with two new tantalising time travellers. Anyway, I'm off to go and pen a counterblast to Marmite. It's disgusting. It shouldn't even be allowed to be called a food. Bye!

You're Dead to Me was a production by The Athletic for BBC Radio 4. The researcher was Hannah McKenzie. The script was by Emma Neguse and me. The project manager was Isla Matthews and the edit producer was Cornelius Mendes. A new podcast series from BBC Radio 4.

In the first stage of a poltergeist haunting, the entity will confine itself to making noise, as if it's testing its victims. The Battersea Poltergeist. My name's Shirley Hitchens. I'm 15 years old. I live with my mum, dad, brother, gran... ..and Donald.

Subscribe to The Battersea Poltergeist on BBC Sounds. This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon pull-apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey and just five bucks for the small coffee all day long. Tax is extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply.