You're Dead to Me - Mansa Musa

Episode Date: September 20, 2019

Who was Mansa Musa and how did he become the world’s richest man… ever? What did he do with his wealth? And why did everyone around him keep dying? Greg Jenner is joined by comedian Athena Kugblenu and historian and director of the Smithsonian National Museum of African Art, Dr Augustus Caseley-Hayford OBE. It’s history for people who don’t like history!This episode was produced by Dan Morelle and scripted and researched by Emma Nagouse, assisted by Josh Daniels.

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, a history podcast for people who don't like history, or at least people who forgot to learn any at school. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, I'm an author and I'm also the chief nerd on the BBC comedy show Horrible Histories. Now on this podcast you

don't really get a GCSE out of it but we are hoping you're going to get some laughs and a tidbit of information that you can impress your mates down the pub with. In every episode we are joined by a historian whose brain is buzzing with historical expertise and a comedian whose veins are full of comedy pumping through them. And today we are journeying back to the 14th century, to Africa, to bask in the glory of Mansa Musa, emperor of the Mali Empire, and the richest person who ever lived. Ever. He makes Amazon's Jeff Bezos look like some washed-up 90s rock star on a comeback tour. Honestly, we are talking serious wealth.

Joining me today are two fantastic guests. In History Corner, he's an art historian and researcher, and he's the man in charge of the Smithsonian's National Museum of African Art in Washington, D.C. A proper, proper job. You may have seen his excellent BBC series, The Lost Kingdoms of Africa, and if you haven't, I really recommend you find it. It is Dr. Gus Casely-Hayford. Hi, Gus. Thank you for coming. It's wonderful to be here. You're in the UK for like seven minutes, and we've grabbed you. Thank you so much for giving us your time.

Great to be here. And in Comedy Corner, she's one of the smartest comedians on the circuit. She mines fantastic gags from the biggest issues in society. You may have seen her acclaimed stand up show at Edinburgh. You may have heard her on Radio 4 shows or on the Guilty Feminist podcast or on her own podcast. It is Athena Kublenu. Hello. Thank you so much for coming, Athena. Thanks for having me. You like history. I like history. I do. I like it a lot.

You've studied history. I mean, you don't just like it. I studied history, but that was a long time ago. I'm older than I look. You do look very young, so I'll let you off. In fact, my history degree is now history. It's ancient history. It's gathering dust. Yeah, it needs to be excavated. But, I mean, not many of In fact, my history degree is now history. It's ancient history. It's gathering dust. Yeah, it needs to be excavated. But I mean, not many of the comedians on this show have studied history.

A lot of them like history, but not many of them have studied it. So that's interesting. Does that mean that you, growing up at school, really connected with history? I did. Bizarrely enough, it was my favourite subject, mostly because we all fancied a teacher. It's a true story. But I did like history and i was good at it and i realized it's because i love a good argument and obviously today i've learned the collective noun for historians it was

an argumentorian argumentation of history that's it which is great so i like history because i like getting into i like beef um history is a great way to argue with people who are older than you and you're a kid, right? So I really appreciate that opportunity. Today we're going to try and avoid the beef. We're going to try and keep it really chill. Let's see how it goes. We're all friends here, come on then. Athena, have you heard of Mansa Musa?

Yes, I have heard of him. I understand he was the Jay-Z of his day. Or Oprah Winfrey. Pick your celebrity. And I know that he had money. Oh, yeah. Quite a lot of it, which is good. And I know that he is African.

And that's about it. Okay. Yeah. That's a lot of knowledge for someone with a degree. That's a pretty good payback for three years. So, what do you know? This is where I summarise what the listeners at home might know about this subject. And in this case, it's going to be sweet FA.

I mean, sorry, but we just don't do African history on the UK curriculum, or maybe it's starting to come in now, but when I was a kid we certainly didn't. I'm a professional historian, and I have never studied African history, and it's a big blind spot that I'm trying to fill. So we know nothing about Mansa Musa, really, and part of that is because of the Eurocentricism of the curriculum, part of that is colonialism, part of that is just, it's a story that doesn't necessarily connect up with our own

history in the uk necessarily but it is an amazing story so we're going to try and get to grips with it today so mansa musa we've already said pretty wealthy athena can you guess roughly in terms of modern modern dollars which is the international dollars how Modern dollars. How many dollars are we talking? So you say pretty wealthy. So somebody who's averagely wealthy is probably like Michael Jordan. Sure. Okay. And he's got his own trainers. And someone who's incredibly wealthy

is the person who pays Michael Jordan. Yes. I don't know who that guy is. Let's call him Dave. So let's say 50... Let's say 100 billion let's say 100 billion. No, 100 billion. 100 billion is Bill Gates.

Really? Above him is Jeff Bezos, 130 billion. Okay. Mansa Musa, 400 billion dollars. No. Now, this is obviously a tricky game because trying to work out wealth from the 1300s is not an easy one, is it? It is not easy. No.

But whichever way you cut it, he's the wealthiest guy who ever lived. So is that what these guys are trying to do? They're trying to catch up with him? I often wonder, why do you need more money? Why do we need AirPods? Why do we need a drone to deliver stuff to us? So they can go and build moon bases.

That's all they want to do, these tech billionaires. That is the great thing about Mansa Musa. He recognises that. He thinks money, at the end of the day, it becomes a limitation. I want to do something else. No money, more problems. Exactly. There's a song.

It's true. I want to do something else. And it's the something else which is really interesting. All right, so how does he make all this money? He's not running an online shop called Nile. Where is the money coming from? Does he sell CDs in Oxford Street? Exactly, yeah, have a car boot.

Gus, can you just give us a really brief overview of what the Mali Empire is? Where is it? How big is it? And when are we talking in terms of history? The Mali Empire is, where is it, how big is it, and when are we talking in terms of history? The Mali Empire, this is a vast empire. It's the biggest empire that West Africa has ever known. And in terms of its square mileage, if you think about the US, it's probably a similar distance from one side of the empire to the other.

Coast to coast. Yes, exactly. That's huge. It is huge. And this was an empire that was constructed in main part within a single generation. And subsequent emperors,

they built upon it. But more than anything, it is created by the force of will of its its its founder sunjata and it is an empire that from the very beginning wants to do more than just dominate rights its citizens that it wants them to feel part of something which is inordinately powerful through knowledge, through culture, through more than just feeling that you were part of some huge kind of military complex. So are you saying this is a good empire? Well, as an empire...

Like in Star Wars, you've got like the dark side and you've got like the other side. What's it, Imperial and... The Rebel Alliance. Yeah, the Rebel Alliance. Is it like the Rebel Alliance? They could be merciless. And what they're very good at is in managing their story. So we only know their version of events.

And their version is that these were benevolent, wonderful, beautiful, but also kind of very well educated emperors. So they understood PR, like the Kardashians. They understood how to craft a message. And this is the period in which the crafting of messages becomes the thing. And that is similar with Pope Innocent the third is doing something similar he wasn't caught he wasn't innocent but he called himself yeah and I think what Genghis Khan is doing who is also kind of a similar sort

of period yeah and that is a message which obviously over subsequent generations it is kind of do you think they invented that would you say the Marleyan Empire invented the idea of? It's a period in which that becomes really important. So in Ethiopia, in great Zimbabwe, that there are powerful people who recognise that, sure, you can run an army and you can slaughter hundreds of thousands of people. Sure. But the easier way is to weave a beautiful story. Yeah. And to bring people into the fold through culture. So the founder is called Sunjata.

Sunjata. And that's in the sort of 1230s, isn't it? Exactly. So we're talking nearly 800 years ago. Yeah. But we're talking today about Mansa Musa, who comes a little bit later on, and he's sort of early 1300s, isn't he?

Yes. The sources for our storytelling, you've already mentioned the fact that there's a kind of PR bluster going on here. The sources for this are oral storytelling, really, isn't it? And what are known as griot or griot. Yes. Can you tell us what that is? There is a role, and it's a really important role, of the storyteller, the historian. And their job is to record the history, the authorised version, on behalf of the king. And they wouldn't do it just as a series of facts, that these were stories that were fashioned almost like poetry that would not be recited because they could be nuanced

so that in particular situations they would be inflected to tell a particular story in a special way that would have meaning and resonance for that particular moment. So these stories are sort of dynamic? They're dynamic and fluid. And there could be multiple versions. How do we know then he really had all that money?

Maybe he just said to someone. Because I'll tell you why I think this. Every year I've got to do a tax return. If some historians dug up my tax return and said, oh, she had this much money. Don't trust that. Obviously, this is all for comic effect if you're from the HMRC. obviously this is all for comic effect if you're from the hmrc so what i'm saying is he might be like oh yeah out back there's 400 billion but really he's probably got a couple of yams well that's what donald trump did isn't it

donald trump used to lie all the time in the 80s and telling people he's got billions and people believed him exactly but this guy he's he's he's not a donald Trump type figure that if anything, he's actually, he downplays. Because one of the things that really does give a sense of how much he's worth is if you look at all of those medieval paintings in Europe. Right. Gilded with usually the powerful, they'll have halos that are also gilded. Right. That gold, it's a particular tone of very yellow gold. Right.

That gold, so much of it came from Mali. Right, okay. And they paid for it, because that's unusual. If you look at most of the medieval jewels. Right. The medieval crowns from... Wow. In Southern Europe. Most of that gold came from so

there is still a huge amount of material culture that gives one a sense of the scale wow okay an influence of the malian the malian um trading uh network So he's good for the money. Oh, he's good for the money. Oh, yeah, absolutely. He's legit wealthy. He's legit, yeah. So this gold is being mined in West Africa. Absolutely.

So they're sitting on, literally on a gold mine. They are, and they know it. That's the thing. And I think when you're that wealthy and it is so much part of the culture, it is then the thought of not how do you make more money when you've got land which is so vast that there's almost no need to conquer new neighbors yes it's then to think what do you do what do you do next mansa musa

turns up in around 1280 i think he's born born. Mansa means... Well, what do you think Mansa means, Athena? Loads of money. Pretty much. Almost. That's not far off. I mean, it means sultan or emperor really, doesn't it? So Mansa is a job title. Musa is his name. We think it's his name. He may have had

a couple of other names. He has, yeah. He has probably a dozen other names. Okay. He's like Prince. Conqueror of Ganata. He has, yeah. He has probably a dozen other names. Okay. Yeah. He's like Prince. Conqueror of Ganata. There's a number of When you're that rich. Exactly. You want names. But Musa is sort of the name we know him by. Amansa is his job title.

He becomes emperor not because he's the oldest son, which is how we tend to think of kings and queens becoming you know, it's not inheritance. He's chosen. Yes. Now what's interesting not inheritance he's chosen yes now what's interesting is that he is chosen by the previous emperor who are the previous manso who's a really interesting guy called um abu bakari k to the second yes he has the most interesting death that i've heard about for a long time you know do you want to guess what happens to him um i don't know a beat his wallet falls on him

by the way those coins because there's no paper money in those days it's all like it's like um that uh what's that rich cartoon duck scrooge mccarney used to go swimming in his coins so did he go for a swim in his coins one day and just never come back amazing i mean that's definitely how they should have written it that should have been the griot So did he go for a swim in his coins one day and just never come back up? That would be amazing, yeah. Was that how he died? I mean, that's definitely how they should have written it. That should have been the griot history. Oh, actually, I think I know the story. Do I know the story?

Like I said, history for three years. Did he vanish because he went off in a ship? Yes. Yes, I know the story. So he wants to go. I think he wants to go and see what's on the other side of the ocean. That's it. Sorry to do your

job go home guys we don't need you we've got it yeah and he goes off and he never comes back

and there's people who theorise he went to South America that's it and I'll say one more thing

on this I think I strongly believe he did go to South America and he's the reason why

South Americans have plantain. Okay. And I just read that in a book because I like plantain and I'm also from a South American country. I like that fact. There you go. I think a lot of people do think that he managed to get across the Atlantic. But what we do know is that he manages

to gather this huge flotilla of ships, hundreds of ships, and says, do not come back until you've actually got to the other side of the ocean. Do not return. And this guy is obviously terrifying.

So they disappear over the horizon and then one ship limps home okay and you can imagine what happened to the crew who came back i mean history doesn't relate but uh he then decides if you want something doing oh do it yourself. Absolutely. Why didn't they lie? Yeah, we went there. It was great. Amazing. Yeah. It was great.

They've got Burger Kings. So then he leaves Mansa Musa. In charge. I'll be back in a couple of weeks. But I think it's a measure of Mansa Musa already demonstrating. Because out of all of his court there's this guy who looks like a safe pair of hands sure who's not in it obviously for the power because you're not going to leave go off and leave it to someone who is is is really kind of egotistical and driven by just sort of a sense of power yeah Yeah. No, you're right, actually,

because I remember when John Prescott was our deputy prime minister. So you're totally right. You don't make your deputy, like, you know, really powerful and egotistical. You're totally right. And then it was Nick Clegg, right? Oh, that's where it went wrong. He had an ego.

So you're absolutely right, yeah, and that's fascinating. So Mansa Musa, he then ascends the throne. So that's Abu Bakr al-Qaeda II. He vanishes off. He may have reached South America, but we don't know. We don't know. That's a theory. Mansa Musa becomes ruler in 1312, so just over 700 years ago.

How old is he? He's a young man. We don't know how old he was. Approximately in his, what, he would have been in his 30s. Yeah. I mean, I'm 36. I could rule an empire. Anyone wants to give me an empire, I'm up for have been in his 30s. Yeah. I mean, I'm 36. I could rule an empire. If anyone wants to give me an empire, I'm up for it.

I'm very reliable. And he has crazy amounts of wealth because of the gold, but also salt. Salt is also hugely important. And why is salt so important? Well, salt, I mean, it's... Because we season our food, Greg. Oh, my gosh.

Come on. That's literally it. Is it really? I was just making a really bad joke about it. And it comes in huge tablets on the backs of camels across the desert. And it is one of the critical goods which is traded for the gold, along with iron and cloth. So did you just say people trade salt for gold? Or gold for salt? Yes.

Or vice versa? Yes. That's fascinating. I guess we like crisps. Gold and wonders, yeah. But salt also preserves food, doesn't it? Exactly. So it gives you life.

In a world without fridges, having salt gives you the longevity of food. So everyone's got a jar of Marmite in their cupboard that's like 10 years old, and that's really salty. So it does preserve food, is what I'm saying. Yeah, but you don't want to eat it after 10 years, do you? Would you go back in after 10? It's their infinite. They never run out. All right, well, you're braver than me.

Keep going and going. All right, so gold and salt is the basis of his empire. And on top of that, he is a Muslim. He has profound deep faith. So he is driven by a sort of desire to spread the faith, but also be a worthy progressive king who looks after his people. Yes. Which is sort of an interesting thing, I suppose,

because we don't necessarily think of kings having that kind of responsibility. But I think it's a kind of balance between these are huge states, and to some degree that you need to win people, it's hearts and minds, right? It can't just be the military. And so he's someone who was very keen to persuade people. So Islam is a wonderful way of binding communities together. But many of these people, they still had belief systems that were of a kind that predated Islam. And they ran concurrently with Islam. People would have would practice both things. And so and that, I think, was difficult for him. And is there a pushback as well? I've read in some of your writing that there was this sort of sense that he tried to impose Islam as the religion.

He did. And some people were like, hang on. Well, even his miners, the people who were the engine of the economy, that they were people who practiced a diversity of religions. And he tried very hard to impose Islam upon them and they pushed back in the way that really affected the empire, which was, I guess, you know, they were like a union and they reduced the output of gold production.

They went on strike. And he basically, he folded. So a U-turn. Yes, exactly. So he let people just have religious freedom in order to keep money being generated in his kingdom. Exactly, exactly. I think that's quite progressive.

I agree, I agree. But also it shows something else, that he accepted that he wasn't all powerful. Right. And that governing was in part a dialogue between him and the population, that he wasn't a non-nipotent king. What's the capital city in his empire? Is it Liana? Liani, yes. Liani.

Yeah. And that is a city of a huge number of people. But then there's also people further out in kind of the extreme edges of the empire, presumably also, who still are part of his world. Absolutely. But they might have their own languages. They might have their own faiths. Maybe not necessarily the same customs. No, but you're talking about a vast, as I say, that this is the size of the US. Yeah, I think about the USA in terms of politics. It's as complex in terms of governance and diversity.

And so he has to find the systems that will make people feel that they are part of this single thing. And this is the medieval period and so communication across a vast empire of that size is enormously complex how does it work is it like it's camels and horses okay and but it's also the the power of oral histories so if you have the same histories that you're reciting again and again from childhood that are telling you about the power of the empire. Right. OK. The reasons why it's beneficial to stay a part of this. So it's propaganda?

Well, sort of. Sort of. But it's better to be in this stable environment because before that there had been hundreds of years of instability you know what it sounds like he should have run the remain campaign because he's able to get people to believe in this epic empire in the 13th century and they're like oh we'll go with this you know and we've got like the internet not that it matters if you remain or brexit but i'm just saying this guy gets loads of people to believe in him even though they practice a different religion, even though it's the 13th century.

And we sort of get people half-heartedly going, oh, well, we might as well. And what's interesting about his faith, of course, is that he, as an observant Muslim, goes on a Hajj. Yes.

Athena, I assume you know what a Hajj is? I do. I told you, history degree free. You know your stuff. Yes, I do. Do you want to tell the people

at home what that is? Yes, I do. Quickly you want to tell the people at home what that is? Yes, I do. Quickly Googles. No, no. It's a pilgrimage to Mecca, right? And it's one of the tenets of Islam. You should do it once in your lifetime. Exactly that.

And he decides that he's going to do it in his lifetime. So he sets off. But he's got a job. He's got a job. So he's got John Prescott at home. Yeah, he's left Steve in accounts to sort of run it. Yes. He's left a really great general.

Right, OK. Who basically is busy kind of expanding his empire on both edges. Sure. Whilst he's travelling. So he knows that his empire is secure. Who's the general? What's the general's name? Sagamandi.

Sagamandi, good name. When Muslims go on a Hajj, they bring important things with them. They bring food and clothes and so on. But he brings quite a lot more. Athena, do you want to guess in terms of what is his retinue of side men and... Oh my gosh. Well, I tend to overpack. His hype men.

So I'll use them... What would you bring on a... I tend to just bring a lot of winter clothes on holidays. Sometimes it'll be hot during the day and cold at night. So winter clothes. Yeah. I guess I'd bring... If I was him, I'd bring a couple of PAs.

Sure. Extra bags, because when there's like a breakfast buffet, sometimes you want to give up the buffet sometimes because when I used to go on holiday when I was younger I'd take my stereo with me

so I could have a dance your stereo well like I said older than I look alright so we used to use stereos in my day

where you put a tape in the cassette bit and you press play so you'd want to dance in your hotel room so I'd do that and then I'd take my tapes obviously

so yeah things like that music, clothes he brought all of that probably do you want to dance in your hotel room okay so i do that and then i take my tapes obviously um so yeah things like that yeah music clothes he he brought all of that probably he also brought 60 000 men 12 000 of whom were slaves now we haven't mentioned that slavery is part of the empire so he's not he's not a totally progressive he's not totally woke but he's also bringing 21 000 kilograms of gold which is quite a lot of gold yeah 80 camels 100 elephants and enough food to feed his entire army and he rocks up in egypt and people are like what the hell is who is this man it's like the scene in aladdin where prince ali turns up and he's got like you know and there's like there's no room at the inn for 60,000 people.

There are no vacancies. Could you imagine? Wow. Okay, so why Egypt? Is that on his way to Mecca he's passing by? That's it, yes. He goes through Cairo. But I think word has already got to Cairo in advance of him getting there.

There's 60,000 men on 60,000 camels. Exactly. But also with a huge amount of gold. And were they... Oh, did he get robbed? Because when you go on holiday, you're supposed to have a little bum bag and have it underneath your jacket. You've got to keep some gold in your sock, haven't you? Just in case you get mugged. So they're waiting for him, aren't they?

At the airport. So he arrives. He's going to Mecca. Mecca is in Saudi Arabia. He's heading to Middle East. And obviously Egypt is a sort of waypoint on the way. He's come out of West Africa. When he arrives, I mean, firstly, he's bringing elephants.

He's bringing camels. He's bringing an army of people. So people initially are just like, wow. Okay, crazy. That's amazing. But also, did they know about him? I mean, does he come out of just nowhere and they're like, who is this guy? Or have they heard

stories? They would have known about him. I think the idea that these various cultures were isolated from one another, it's just not true. Because gossip news would have crossed the desert. And his gold is being

imported into Europe anyway. Exactly. And along with technologies and new ways of thinking, mathematics, all of these things are already crossing the desert. So they knew about this guy who is hugely wealthy.

But I get the sense that when he arrives of course there are lots of writers who they are fascinated and they want to get to him and they record this but the actual powers that be in egypt they don't want to bow down to him okay and he doesn't want to bow down well clearly i think it's a And he doesn't want to bow down to them. Well, clearly. I think it's a bit rude. If you're going to pass through someone's country, keep it social. So do they take it as threatening? Because that sounds like an advancing army.

Well, there's a difficult moment. Right. When he actually enters the court, it's tradition that he would then bow to the head of state. is the sultan of egypt yeah and the sultan looks at him and what he cleverly does is rather than bowing to the sultan he prays to allah oh yeah okay of course everyone is one round. And I'm guessing that the Sultan thinks that's the way out for me because I need to be friends with this guy. Yeah. And just to be clear, they practice Islam in Egypt at this time. It's right across North Africa. So he so then they become, if not friends, then strategic allies.

And this is an opportunity for Cairo. And he gives away gold. He gives away so much money, you know, like just giving, you know, flashing the blue. It's true, people never change. Just outside the studio, somebody was like,

yeah, you get a car. It's true. So like, I think Coca-Cola or some big brand was handing out tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny drinks. And people were mobbing this. And ordinarily, we'd probably hate these corporations. We'd say they're big and they're too evil.

Oh, free little can of drink. I love some of that. So, you know, he's been doing that. He started that. So he just gives away his gold. That's what it's there for. Huge, huge amount. The historian Al-Umari says he flooded Cairo with his kindness. And the word flooded

suggests that it's not just like here's some money it's like literally here is tens of thousands of pounds in just gold. Solid gold. So much that it actually collapses the price of gold for some years after. That's incredible. So he turns up, his generosity literally collapses the economy. Yes, exactly. This is quantitative easing. This is quantitative easing. It's amazing.

So is this strategic? High proof of relation. Is he saying, I'm going to do this because it will benefit me? Or is that just his character? I think this is my empire, it sits to some degree on the cultural edge of an awful lot of my trading partners. Right. I want them to understand that we aren't just there to supply gold. Right.

That we are a force to be reckoned with. So I think he turns up with that many people to say if i chose to you know you could we could destroy you exactly oh yeah it's not just that i can buy and sell you i could have you it's it's a way of him in a nice way intimidating people but also saying you need to think about us in a different way listen i want to be intimidated that sounds amazing yeah please come and intimidate me with all your goals i'm feeling tremendously to think about us in a different way. Listen, I want to be intimidated. That sounds amazing. Please come and intimidate me with all your goals. I'm feeling tremendously intimidated.

And then he pushes on to Mecca. He completes his Hajj. And in Mecca, he also is kind of recruiting intellectuals and architects who are going to come back with him to sort of help the kingdom flourish. And that's a really interesting thing, isn't it? He's not just there to show off. It's a recruitment mission. Yes.

You have to imagine Mecca in that period. It's the place where all of the superstars go, the intellectual superstars, that they would come from the courts in Cordoba. They'd come from the Berber kingdoms. But what are they doing there? They come for the Hajj, but simultaneously you come to exchange ideas. Right.

Latest theories on mathematics or astronomy, you know, all sorts of different areas. The finest intellectuals, they would all converge on this one place Mecca. they would all converge on this one place, Mecca. And when they had finished their prayers, it was a chance to talk and to gossip. OK. God, he's got 60,000 men. Why are they so worried?

OK, yeah. And I think part of being in Mecca and actually doing the Hajj, that you have to relinquish all of the manifestations of wealth. So in that period, he dressed fairly modestly. And I think he spent a bit of time with ordinary people, sitting around chatting. And I think he thought, hmm, I like a bit of this. These intellectuals. So he's a man of the people as well as like a leader of a great and wealthy nation.

So he is building, apparently, a mosque every Friday. Is that a joke or is that true? That is apparently true. He's like, it's Friday, mosque day. Tuesday, play football. Wednesday, out with the lads. Friday, mosque. So he is throwing money at architectural projects.

He's committed to developing faith in the land, but also building facilities, places for people to go and pray. He's working with fantastic architects. I mean, the most famous thing he does, I suppose, is Timbuktu. I mean, Timbuktu is the thing that we still know about even today. Even if you don't know anything about African history, the name Timbuktu just goes, oh, yeah, I know about even today. Even if you don't know anything about African history, the name Timbuktu just goes, oh yeah, I know what that means.

He develops a library there that is, I mean, I know it's pre-existing, but he adds to it. So there's a million books in that library. And it's the most extraordinary thing. It's revolutionary because imagine that if you write down laws on a piece of paper,

no longer can you say, this is down to the discretion of the king or to an interpretation that is being delivered on it. We don't even have a constitution on paper. This is something which is now written down. So he transforms the way in which knowledge is delivered by having these libraries. So he realises that there is an opportunity. It is ceding a little power, giving away a bit of power, but it's creating a different kind of empire, something that he felt had a chance of lasting forever.

Writing down his story, giving a sense of his culture but creating a center of of intellectual understanding that was south of the sahara it's going to change the intellectual geography of the world pulling the gravitational force of Mecca, of southern Spain, southward toward this place where intellectuals are going to be drawn. And does he finish it? Does he complete the library? He builds the most astonishing mosque, which is still there today. The most astonishing mosque and libraries and madrassas, which are schools where people could come and study and thousands of intellectuals they descend on this place because it is a kind

of center of learning unlike anything that's ever been seen so it's almost like a massive university africa before it is like a university so do people take a gap year to go to the UK? Like, oh, it's really awful over there. Can't wait to come back to Timbuktu. Travel through Sweden. Yeah, exactly. Buglewell, Brixton as well. And

at that moment, in places like Egypt, along the Swahili coast, there are other empires in Africa which are doing similar things. But the scale and the sophistication that Mansa Musa deploys, I think it sets him apart.

How long does it take him to build his library? This is in the period of about 15 or 20 years that he manages to construct. So we haven't done Crossrail in all this time. HS2 is nowhere near as good. I mean Gus you're an art historian. What kind of art is coming out of Marley at this point? Some of the terracotta sculptures from that period they are astounding. It's incredibly fine fine work. And a lot of them are figures. They were investing in fantastic instruments. So one of the things that he really is very keen on is the balaphone,

a kind of xylophone. Yeah. And those traditions still continue. Amazing jewellery, as you can imagine, with all of that gold so if i want to see some of this where where can i go you can come to our museum but i think also more locally is the british museum where they have some of these and they are exceptional beautiful in that they capture a time and that this was this was a culture which they imported Arabian horses and you can see them captured in terracotta. It's as astonishing as anything produced in Europe.

And, you know, for me, that is the distressing thing about African history. You know, Hegel very famously said Africarica is a place without history without culture and yet i can't think of any continent that has invested more in trying to record and then preserve its culture we don't really know much about his death no mansa musa lives this extraordinary life right it's big money buildings mosques every friday camels a go-go and then he just sort of isn't there anymore and he's not got on a boat and sailed to south america i mean that's not happened it's sort of bizarre isn't it that a guy who'd set up such an incredible infrastructure just sort of drops off of history and but i think the the really interesting thing

about that is it tells you something about the influence of the singular man. It's not just that this was a moment in which there was a coincidence of all sorts of possibilities that made the man. It was him that brought them together, that wanted narrative in that way to mark this time and this place out particularly. And the moment he dies,

you get a sense of the disintegration of some of that. And so even his own death isn't recorded with a level of accuracy that one would imagine that was appropriate for such a thing. Because he wasn't there to go, write this down. Exactly. To do this, we need to record it in this way. And it's the beginning of a kind of unravelling of an empire. So he didn't have an heir?

He didn't succession plan? Of course he had he had heirs, but they were people who who then who then challenged those heirs. And it just it led to what he realised is to hold an empire together. It had to be a balance of military power, but also the culture and the understanding of people that this was to their benefit as soon as that second bit of the component of actually disintegrated with his death the whole thing fell apart even with

military power Athena are you feeling that this should be on the school curriculum oh absolutely yeah because I mean I've always've always felt that when we learn about history, it's very Eurocentric. And you said something earlier, which is we learn about British history and African history is actually quite separate. But actually, we're just learning one side of the story. It's the same history.

You just need to get a different perspective. So we absolutely need to learn that the richest man alive was African because just that fact alone rewrites the narrative we have of Africa being sort of backwards or dark or in need of charity. We're always talking about what we've given to sort of the southern

hemisphere and Africa in general but actually we also have to talk about what we've taken from these places. So absolutely it should be on the curriculum. The nuance window! taken from these places. So absolutely, it should be on the curriculum. The nuance window!

This is where we unleash our expert historian, let him go full nerd, like the Hulk, for two whole minutes. So I'm going to get the stopwatch up and I'm going to start the able to clock and you have two minutes, three, two, one. The nuance window. I'm, as you can imagine, really passionate about this history.

And this is a story which, as you have said, it's not well known. It's not known well enough. But beyond that, it's also a culture that is also potentially vulnerable. In 2012,

Timbuktu was attacked, attacked by forces who were allied to al-Qaeda, that these were people who were, they saw the sorts of legacies of Mansa Musa as being a threat to their way of thinking. And they decided to destroy those ancient archives, to destroy some of those amazing buildings. And they attacked these buildings and the shrines around Timbuktu. And in a campaign that lasted many months, they held to ransom hundreds of people. And ordinary people risked their lives to secrete documents, to hide them, to make sure that their history was secure. I mean, for me, it tells you something of not just that these histories,

that they were powerful, but they remain enormously resonant for people today. And I think we should respect that. And I think for us in the West, in which we have the blessing of knowing that the British Museum is always there as a kind of a safeguard, that for others, their history is potentially imperiled. And I would love it if we found more ways of respecting this history, of putting it into the curriculum in a much more formal way, of finding ways of celebrating this through, not just through podcasts like this, but through a range of different ways in which we could communicate the value of African history.

If people are prepared in this day to risk their lives to preserve their history, I think we should be on their side. I really do. And the things that we can learn from it. This was a centre of intellectual excellence in the medieval period that was communicating ideas that were crossing the desert into southern Europe about mathematics and astronomy and all sorts of wonderful things. And we've somehow

cast Africa as this dark, lost continent. but it's a place of ideas and possibilities but we need to be there to support it and give it a chance and that's a responsibility that remains as important and critical today as it ever was. Thank you so much. Athena, thoughts?

I have nothing further to add I mean I agree with it all and I think what this is is a great, I think, starting point for anybody who feels like they haven't really taken opportunities to learn more about African history. What a great starting point. Because, you know, I think I've grasped it very well, you know, and I've got baby brain.

Well, there's a quiz coming, so we can see if you've grasped it. You can edit that bit out when i get zero out of 20 or whatever no i mean you know facts are fun to learn and the quiz is always a fun way of learning some facts but the most important thing about this podcast is hopefully getting people to just think differently yes about african history so what do you know now now we now find out if any of it has stuck dr gus is staring at me he's gonna be it's gonna be a big see me on on the exam paper at the end no no no we're all friends here all right without much further ado first question what is a griot or griot? Oh, like a historian, storyteller, joke-teller, comedian. What does Mansa mean?

Oh, like Stolten. Yes. What is the Hajj? It's the pilgrimage to Mecca. Absolutely. During Mansa Musa's reign, which city became the largest in the Malian Empire and had a huge library? Timbuktu. Timbuktu, yes. What are the two most valuable trading commodities

in the Malian Empire? Salt and gold. Salt and gold. Salt and gold. In what year, roughly, was Mansa Musa made ruler? To the nearest ten. 1320? Mate, that is the nearest ten. 1312. You get a point there.

Who is Sanjata Keta? The first emperor. Yes, the founder of the empire. Absolutely. Mansa Musa was incredibly generous during his pilgrimage. What was the strange economic consequence? Quantitative easing. The value of gold

went down because there was so much of it just lying about. Absolutely. Question nine. Mansa Musa took power because Abu Bakr Kater II vanished doing what? I knew this! He went to South America. He did? On a jolly. We think. Well, he definitely headed that way. He took a Ryanair flight, got off and went

where the hell am I yeah and final question which Egyptian city did Manson Musa visit Cairo yes 10 out of 10

wow that's very impressive where's my PhD where's my doctorate I want it now that is pretty impressive I was sweating when you said

there was going to be a test I was like oh my god you have nailed it I mean you've had a great teacher in fairness I know to be fair that has helped a lot fair play to be a test. I was like, oh my God. You have nailed it. I mean, you've had a great teacher, in fairness. I know, to be fair, that has helped a lot. Fair play to you. Well, I mean, that's time up on the quiz

and pretty much time up on the podcast. We have got to the end of the show. Big thanks to my guests. In History Corner, Dr Gus Casely-Hayford, Director of the Smithsonian's National Museum of African Art in Washington, D.C. God, that's a mouthful, isn't it? And in Comedy Corner, the wonderful Athena Kublenu.

And to our lovely listeners at home, well, join me next time for more excellent history while we force a comedian and a historian to talk to each other, and hopefully there are no punch-ups. Anyway, that's enough for now. Thank you and goodbye. You're Dead to Me was a Muddy Knees media production for BBC Radio 4.

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