You're Dead to Me - Marie Antoinette: last French queen before the Revolution

Episode Date: October 3, 2025

Greg Jenner is joined in the eighteenth century by historian Professor Katherine Astbury and comedian Jen Brister to learn about French queen Marie Antoinette. Born an Austrian princess, Marie Antoinette went on to be the last queen of France before the Revolution and the abolition of the monarchy. She is famous now for saying "let them eat cake", for her love of fashion, and her supposedly extravagant spending at a time when ordinary people in France were going hungry. But how true are any of these stories, and where did these myths about her originate? In this episode, we look at Marie Antoinette’s Austrian childhood and overbearing mother, her marriage to Louis XVI and time as queen of France, and the hatred directed at her by the revolutionaries. Along the way we take in her involvement in politics, her love of the theatre, and her possible Swedish sweetheart. If you’re a fan of radicals and revolutionaries, maligned women from history and royal scandals, you’ll love our episode on Marie Antoinette.If you want more from Jen Brister, check out our episodes on Emma of Normandy and Hernán Cortés and Malintzin. Or for controversial French queens, listen to our episode on Catherine de’Medici.You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past.Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Charlotte Emily Edgeshaw Written by: Charlotte Emily Edgeshaw, Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Gill Huggett Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

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Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Janna. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are hopping into our hoop skirts and styling our hair in the French fashion as we travel back to 18th century France to learn about Queen Marie Antoinette.

And to help us separate myth from reality, we have two very special courtiers. In History Corner, she's Professor of French Studies at the University of Warwick, Her research focuses on French culture in the revolutionary and Napoleonic periods, especially plays, prints and novels. She's the author of narrative responses

to the trauma of the French Revolution. It's Professor Catherine Asbury. Welcome, Kate. Thank you very much for inviting me. And in Comedy Corner. She's a stand-up comedian, actor and writer. You'll have seen her on all the telly, live The Apollo, mock the week, Frankie Boyle's New World Order,

maybe heard her on podcasts like WTB, which means women talking bollocks. I can't say that on Radio 4, but I can on the podcast, or her other podcast, Memory Lane. And you'll definitely remember her from our episodes on Honan Cortez and Melinsin and of course Emma of Normandy.

It's Jen Bristair. Welcome back, Jen. Thank you, Greg. I'm delighted to be back. We have previously done together English history, Spanish history, Mexican history. Obvious question. Do you parley vu Francaise? I don't want to get into it because I don't want to embarrass cake. Thank you. All your stuff, Greg, actually.

Thank you. Yeah. But I am very excited about this particular episode, not least because it is French history. What a joy. but because I actually know who this person is and this is the first time I've been invited onto the show with the historical figure that's whose name I recognise, so I'm delighted. Yeah, we're not punishing you anymore.

No. I'm just like, yes, I know who this person is. Mary Antoinette, you know the name, so do you know some of the story? Look, I know the story that was told when I was a child and I think most of the myths around Marie Antoinette are, as we have learned later, as an adult, are complete lies.

So I'm going to say almost everything I know about this historical figure is not true. So I'm really intrigued to hear the truth of her life and of her impact

in French history. So, what do you know? This is a so what do you know where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject and I bet you all shouted let them eat cake.

She didn't say it. Come on. You may have seen. in Sophia Coppola's fabulous 2006 film Mariantoinette with a punk rock soundtrack starring Kirsten Dundst or the most recent Mariantoinette TV drama series on the BBC. Of course, you might also remember the shocking Grammy Award-winning performance by heavy metal titans Gajara at the 2024 Paris Olympic opening ceremony

accompanied by numerous decapitated Mariantoinette in blood red dresses. Mariantoinette is a modern pop culture icon. But what was her life really like? How did an Austrian princess become France's doomed queen? and how many dresses did she really own? Let's find out. All right, Professor Kate, let's start at the beginning. That seems like a sensible place to begin.

When and where was Mary Antoinette born, and was that her name? So the Archduchess Maria Antonia of Austria was born on the 2nd November 1755, the 15th child of 16, of the Empress Maria Theresa, ruler of the Habsburg dynasty from 1740, and Father Emperor Francis I. Her mother, Maria Theresa, was a political powerhouse and played a huge role in managing military and diplomatic affairs.

In 1756, she made a momentous alliance with Austria's age-old enemy France, reversing 200 years of hostility. And as a result, Austria was drawn into a global conflict known subsequently as the Seven Years' War when fighting over British and French colonial possessions in the Americas and the Caribbean spread to Europe. At court in Vienna, they spoke German, French and Italian. and Maria Antonia grew up sliding between being called Antonia and Antoine.

All the girls in the family had Maria as a first name, so they tended to avoid that. They were all called Maria. They were all called Maria. It was a family tradition. The girls all had Maria as a first name. How do you solve a problem like Maria? You use the second name.

Because she was also one of the youngest in the family, she was also referred to as Antoinette, which is the French diminutive, meaning little Antoine, and in the end, that's the name that stuck. It's cute. Yeah, they do that in Spain as well. they have a little diminutive name. They're all called Maria. I feel like that's like 16 kids.

Come on. Well, the boys weren't called Maria. Oh, yeah. What were they called? Franz. Leopold, Yosef. Good. Good, solid.

All Australian names. But going to war. And so she grew up in Vienna. She grew up in Vienna. Right. So there is fact, numero, uno, that I did not know. I thought Mary Antoinette was French. So that's quite embarrassing.

Was Austria a part of the Austro-house? Hungarian empire at that point? Yes, the Holy Roman Empire. Good knowledge. The Holy Role I called it, the Holy Roman Empire. All right. Okay. Were you Jenny at any point, Jen? Did you have a rebrand?

I honestly, when I was a child, if Jenny came up, even when I was small, I was like, you've got to knock that on the head. I'm a lot of things, but I'm not a Jenny. So that's why it's always been Jen. And the only person that ever referred to me as Jennifer was my mum when I'd done something wrong. So it's just Jen. Okay. So we have a princess.

We have an Arch-Duchessess. You can presumably guess what her future is going to be, Jen, in terms of what mother is planning for her? Yes, I imagine she's planning a very prestigious marriage into a very prestigious court in France. Yeah, bang on. I mean, that's the plan, right? Absolutely, got it in one.

Yeah. So we're minutes into the episode, already wedding bells. We're talking about a little girl here. Yes, we are. Oh, wait a second, hang on, rewind. I was talking about in the future. No, no. She had been betrothed as a child.

She is betrothed as a child. Maria Theresa's plan is for her to marry the French king Louis 15th's grandson who's also called Louis. We've got all the girls in Austria called Maria and all the boys in France called Louis. The idea is that it will cement the political alliance. Negotiations don't begin in earnest

until Antoinette is about 10. Louis's father, little Louis, Louis's father has died and he becomes heir to the throne in France, who is known as the Dauphin. And at that point, Maria Theresa decides that this is going to be a great way of reinforcing this new alliance

between the age-old enemies, Austria and France. Louis is only a year older than Antoinette, but that's considered good because they're quite close in age. But he's described as a lanky, silent, nervous lad. Okay. Aren't all teenage, I was going to say, it's quite a standard boy. That isn't a teenage boy?

You said she spoke French, Italian, German. Yes, court speaks a mixture of the three languages. and Maria Theresa finds two French actors to teach her daughter of French pronunciation and conversation ready to start preparing her for moving to France. This is at the age of 10 that they start this preparation for her.

And do they have like, they've already decided, is it quite usual then to get married before they're 16 or is it? Oh, it is? It is normal, yes. For average people know, but for princes, for dynasty marriages.

But for royalty? Yeah. So let's talk about Mary and Tuenette. Are we calling her Maria? Maria Antoninette? What's her name for her? She signs letters as Antoine or as Antoinette. Okay, let's call her Antoinette then. Okay, Antoinette. Jen, do you think she's a good student?

You know, she's got these teachers, these French actors teaching her, you know, how to converse and be witty and chatty. Do you think she's a good student? Do you think she's a bit ditsy? Do you think she's distracted? What's your vibe? I've got no idea, but I'm going to say that I imagine she's a good student because she does get on to do very well in the French court. so I imagine that she learns French quite easily if she's already speaking German and Italian in court. Am I close?

I think Ditsy might be closer than... Oh, no! I was really fighting for a come on, Antoinette. Well, her brother rather unkindly called her an airhead. She was allegedly very easily distracted, not particularly interested in serious topics. Much prefers dancing, music, drawing to reading. The French court get wind of the fact that she...

She's being taught French by two actors, so they decide to send a more appropriate tutor, a man called the Abbe de Vermon, who then has a couple of years at most to prepare her to be wife to the heir to the throne. But she's already 13, and it's a bit late to make a substantial difference, really, to the gaps in her education.

He teaches her to read and write in French. She teaches her a little bit about French history and tries to explain how to behave at court because there's a very strict etiquette at French court. she hadn't liked her previous governess so the Abbe tried hard to make her like him in the hope that this would help remedy the poor education she'd had up until then

but in making his lessons fun he prioritised style over substance and when she gets to France her education is found to be somewhat lacking so she has got to that point now at the age of 13 she's going to now move away from her home in the Vienna court to go to Paris to live with her new husband who is 14.

Wow, this is quite something, isn't it? Yeah. And already she leaves with the reputation of being a bit of an airhead. Yeah, but she's not ready yet, Jen. She has to be prepared in other ways. Well, surely she has to have a period. Crucially, yes. Yes.

I mean, you can't marry a young girl off to have children without that. No, you remember all those 90s makeover sort of shows that you'd see and kind of classic, the kind of rom-coms as well. well where the girl takes off her glasses and she's hot. They kind of do that to her. But it's a lot more cruel and unusual, isn't it? Kate, I mean... It is.

Are you ready for how she's remodeled for her French future husband? She has a French hairdresser sent to style her hair in the French way because she has a characteristic Habsburg forehead. So they want to try and do the hair so that it minimises the foreignness of her forehead. What do you mean by Habsburg forehead? Is it because her forehead is too far back? Yes. The Habsburgs were renowned for inbreeding,

and so they had a certain physical appearance. Appearance. That was sort of renowned. She had painful orthodontic work to straighten her teeth. So braces at 14 is standard for a lot of teenagers now, but in the 18th century, that is not fun. It's more unusual. Yeah. She also had to wear corsets to improve her silhouette.

Right. A little bit of padding to disguise the fact that one of her shoulders was higher than the other. They had to bring in a French ballet master to teach. how to dance with the large skirts, the high heels and a train. She has to learn how to walk and hold her head up in a manner appropriate for a future queen. So there's a lot of preparations going into making her the real deal for when she gets to France. Proper makeover. I get the ache when I'm expected to put foundation on.

I'm like, please, I just can't be bothered. But this is way too much. And then, yeah, she's sent off to France aged 14. So cue the problematic marriage claxon, which we eventually have to hunk a lot on this show. Jen, what words of wisdom would you give to a teenage girl heading off to a foreign land to marry an awkward, lanky, anxious stranger? Oh my God, I don't know if I'm the right person to give this advice. Do you know what I mean?

My advice would be, stay true to yourself and don't compromise and make sure you get what you want out of this relationship. I mean, that's very good advice. Probably quite bad advice for the French court. That's probably going to rub up a lot. I think the French would be quite annoyed if you showed up with that. Sure, I know. I mean, that's why I'm, like, definitely not the right person to ask about that.

So the advice would be the opposite. Yeah, fit in. Fit in. Don't stand out. Don't stand out. And just do whatever your husband says. Be as French as he can. And so when she arrives in France, what are you imagining?

Are you sort of, are you thinking, Harry and Megan? Is it Kate and Wales? You know, what kind of, what's the vibe? Is it fun? Are people happy, you know? Those are the only two options you have. Those are the only two options. Okay.

I'm going to sidestep comparing the, the wedding to either. Well, call her Marie Antoinette now. Once she reaches France, she adopts the name Marie Antoinette. Okay. To sort of make her more French. She arrives in May 1770 and meets King Louis the 15th at Compienne.

She bowed low, but he scooped her up in a loving fatherly hug. Oh, that's nice. Apart from the fact that his reputation as a libertine perhaps means that it's slightly less nice than it might have less seem. She's then introduced to young Louis, her future husband, and the extended family and two days later the 16th of May the pair were married Versailles

and she became Dauphineess, Dauphine of France. Libertine's just a shagger, isn't it? Yes, Libertine is that very posh word for an enjoyer of life. Okay, got you, got you. Which, of course, in the 18th century meant shagging as many women as he could. She gets a wedding gift.

She gets a hugely expensive wedding gift from her father-in-law, so Louis the 15th, a cabinet filled with jewellery and precious... The whole marriage is on a really grand scale because he's trying to present his reign as really prosperous and successful when in fact the state finances aren't very healthy. So he's ruining the state for show and Marie Antoinette is being unwittingly implicated in that deception

because she's receiving a ridiculously extravagant set of jewellery as a wedding gift from her grandfather-in-law. Famously things often go wrong at weddings. Usually it's a sort of drunk uncle on the dance floor. Yeah. Occasionally. We've all seen that. something, a minor scrape or something, but in this case, people die.

What? Quite a lot of people die. Do you mean members of the public? Yeah. Like outside because of big crowds? Exactly that. So there was a planned firework display for the people of Paris as a sort of a reward and to spread the love. Thunderstorms delayed it, and when the display did happen, a stray fireworks set fire to the Temple of Hyman and in the ensuing chaos, 132 people were crushed to death.

Oh my God. Yeah. That's awful. It's not a great omen for the marriage, is it? When your wedding day, when, yeah, the Temple of Hyman as well, of course, being, yes. Just adds to the overall sense of it being a bad omen. That's not the end of it, because Jen, on the wedding night, things get even more awkward.

Do you know why? Why would it be awkward for the new married couple? Well, they don't know what they're doing. Not just that. They don't know what they're doing with an audience. Why does it host? They have to make sure that they're at that she's, that they... There's a going-to-bed ceremony.

Oh, come on. It's hard. I mean, we've all, remember our first time. Can you imagine with an audience, anything worse? Kate, talk us through it. So, the Archbishop blesses the bed. That's definitely going to get you in the mood. That's really going to get you in the mood.

Louis XIV, then hands the door for his nightshirt. So the grandfather is there, offering advice. Marie Antoinette is receiving her night shirt in a native. neighbouring room from another courtier, the Duchess of Chardre. They then have to lie down in front of the king and the entire court to prove that they have shed the same bed. And at that point, everyone leaves? And then everyone leaves, yes.

So they're not actually... Okay, so they're not watching the decommation of the marriage. Thank God, okay, that's fine. So, it's not fine, it's awful, but that would have been way too much. So then they're left together in this very romantic mood, isn't it? Super romantic. Fireworks, people have died. your grandfather is handing you

he's telling you what to do you're like, yeah the King's advice was it useful Kate did Louis rise to the occasion so to speak? Louis did not rise to the occasion the marriage was unconsumated

for seven years Uh-huh Kelsa Priese Is he gay? Or traumatised These could be traumatised Right There's a lot of discussion

over why was the marriage not consummated for so long long time because I can get like that day would have been very traumatic. But at some point someone's got to get in the mood, haven't they? And also your adolescence, that's when all the hormones... I mean, yeah. That's when you're at your randiest, right? But nothing. This is a huge constitutional problem, right? The future of the French monarchy

and the Austrian sort of trade deal is at stake here. We don't know if it was personal hesitation, whether it was health related. In 1777, Marie Antoinette's brother, Joseph visits incognito and Louis confides in him about the issues that they're having in a letter, Joseph then writes that what they're doing

was clearly never going to result in pregnancy but after his visit they do finally manage to consummate the marriage. Okay, did they know how to consummate their marriage? No, it doesn't sound like a dessert. No one had told them how to so they're brought up strict Catholic

you don't... So they've spent seven years just just trying to figure it out. Humping the pillow and just sort of, you know. Wrong hole. And then they start having a normal marriage? He has a little procedure as well, doesn't he? He does, yeah.

So which potentially may be a procedure on, you know. Sorry, what? Well, I'm, you know, speculating, but he may have perhaps had pain in that area. So he might have needed a procedure to, you know, do something down there that loosens some skin, for example. Oh, so he might have needed to be circumcised or something like that. Or something like that. We don't know. We are speculating. But, you know, but the procedure.

was done and soon after they were able to consummate. They were able to consummate the marriage. At the age of what, 21 and 22? Yeah. Okay. Maybe some things are just best lost to history. We don't know why. Seven years, we'll just sort of, you know, write that off.

Okay, so with the unconsumitted marriage already proving an issue in 1774, so this was still four years into their not sleeping together problem, suddenly Louis was the King of France because Louis the 15th died, making Marie Antoinette the Queen of France. So she was 18. at this point, 19, just about? Just about 19. Okay, just her 19.

So the age of which we would normally maybe go to university or maybe get your first job, her first job, Queen. Yeah, that's a lot. What's the first thing she does, Kate, in terms of court politics? How does it go? Not perhaps as well as it might have done. Okay. I mean, they're both still very young.

They're very inexperienced. Louis largely leaves her to her own devices. She has nothing to do because the marriage isn't constantly. She's not going to get pregnant, and therefore her sole reason for being at court can't exist. So she fills her time with gambling, with balls, with going incognito into Paris, to balls to the theatre. She gathers around her group of young people nearer her own age. She's not interested in being polite to the older members of court. She hates the really strict etiquette of court, so she does all she can to sort of sidestep that.

She'd rather have a little bit of privacy. She doesn't want to spend all her time in the public eye. And really she carries on living the life she'd lived whilst she was the wife of the heir to France rather than changing her behaviour once she's become queen. So, Jen, how do you think she's doing on ratemymonic.com? Do you think the people of France are pleased about their new queen? I'm guessing the people of France,

and they are very vocal as a people, are not at all happy with their new queen, who appears to be just having a big old jolly and ignoring the needs and wants of the people, particularly the working people of Paris, you know, and of France rather. So I would imagine there's a lot of resentment and anger building. The problems that will later arise in the French Revolution, they're already there, right? They are already there, yes.

Jane, how would you turn things around if you were Marianne-Swin-Ett? What's your policy to get people to love you? Well, I would think I would do something for the people and make a really big gesture. That was like, you know, oh, guys, I've got this great big party. I'm going to put it on for you, because I love you, and I really want you to know that I care about you. So you'd say let them eat cake. I would say, guys, I'm really sorry that you're in poverty,

but have you had jelly and ice cream before? She doesn't have a great deal of power, so I think maybe she would do something that's a little bit superficial, but maybe... Okay, that's sensible. Kate, she does the most important thing, of course, she produces an air. That is what matters.

That's really what makes a difference. She does produce an air, finally. She has a daughter, Marie Therese, Charlotte, born in 1778. Another Marie. Another Marie. Born, of course, in front of the court, because child's birth to the queen has to be public to prove that the child has come out of her womb. Okay, so she, but she has a daughter, so that's disappointing.

Luckily, she then carries on with the child bearing. She has Louis Joseph. in 1781, that he will die age seven just before the start. So he was the dauphin. He was the dauphin. Yeah. He dies just before the start of the French Revolution in 1789. Louis Chal, who is born in 1785,

and Sophie Elene Beatrice in 1786, who dies aged one. So she has four children, two of whom will die in her lifetime. She has her sort of squad of ladies at court. She's got a particularly close friend, isn't she? Yes, her close friend is called Madame de Pauline. She's named governess of the royal children, which caused a little bit of a stir at court because she doesn't really have any qualifications to be governess to the royal children. But she's Marie Antoinette's best friend.

And therefore, Marie Antoinette is adamant that she only wants people she can trust to be around her family. And governess is responsible for the education of the children too. It's not just sort of like nice auntie who just hands them sweets. It is like teaching them Latin and, you know, how to do maths and write letters. comparing them to be members of the royal family. It did help her popularity, but because of the gap between the marriage and the first child being born, there are a huge number of rumours

about who the father of each of these children is. Okay, Kate, here's my question, because I feel like as a historical figure that I certainly don't know a great deal about, what I do know about her is that it's very two-dimensional and she has been given a really hard rap. Are there any redeeming qualities to marry Antoinette Other than that she's a party girl That is very self-involved Suffered a lot of losses as a mother

Anything else going on for her That we can give her a little bit of cheerleading for Okay, we can certainly try How about her being an important figure In the patronage of arts and culture Okay So particularly decorative arts and music She uses her influence to move

public tastes to a more modern cosmopolitan style of music. Though often it backfires because her preferred opera composer, Gluck, was her former music teacher in Austria and therefore even when she tries to persuade the French to be more cosmopolitan, she's still accused of being anti-French and pro-Austrian. She's trying to develop a more cosmopolitan theatrical and musical scene in France. She's trying to loosen the very tight etiquette at court in her own way, trying to modernise things a little bit. She sets the agenda in the theatre.

She certainly sets the agenda when we come to fashion as well. Yeah, hugely so. And what about politics? You know, Louis is the king, but he's not renowned for being the sort of great thinker, this great man of power. You know, he likes clockwork. That's his hobby.

Yes. Does Marie sort of quietly start running the show, or is she happy being? Initially, no, though she is an important figure at court, and largely because Louis XVIth doesn't take a mistress. So the way that the French court had developed over the 18th century was that the mistress of the king was the one who had the king's ear and could be the one to sort of get favours and advantages from.

Because Louis isn't interested in taking a mistress, people expect Marie Antoinette to gain them favours, but she has a very fine line to tread because she can't be seen to be overstepping her mark, exactly, her role as consort, her role is to bear children. So she's in a slightly awkward position

and accused of meddling because there isn't anyone else to take the flack. When Louis XIV was king, his various mistresses... Various, yeah. ...were the ones that got the gossip and the attention of the scandal mongers. And because there isn't anyone

to deflect attention, it all falls on Maconet so she's effectively queen and mistress because she has the king's ear so it's all concentrated down onto her the part that comes of being a queen they're having to receive foreign dignitaries and that side of the role she's not really

particularly keen on she'd rather be with her friends and that's where all the power is that's where if you have the ear of the foreign dignitaries and if you have the you know if you're able to position yourself in a way where you're both sort of benigny but also, you know, listening in. That's quite a useful thing to have if you want to have a bit of power. We did to talk about Marantoinette and fashion.

She's renowned for it. There's a new exhibition coming to the VNA Museum soon about, her sort of amazing clothes. Jen, do you know how many new dresses she ordered per year from her favourite dressmaker? Oh, I'm imagining in their hundreds. Yeah, it was 300. 300 a year?

300 a year. Brand new dresses. So that's almost a new dress for every single day. Yeah. I mean, some days she's just wearing the same dress twice. What a slob. Can you imagine wearing a dress more than once? Her dressmaker was Rose Burtain.

Yes. Can you tell us more about fashion and Marianne Tuenette's sort of role within it? So it's one of the things that lots of people know about Marie Antoinette is her extravagant clothing. She was accused at the time of spending too much money on dresses. Although, in her defence, she is supposed to be promoting the superiority of French. culture. She represents the nation and is keeping dozens, if not hundreds of people employed as a result of being the face of France in that sense. So there's a bit of a double bind there in that she's been told she's spending too much. But on the other hand, even in the

20th century, if a queen were to re-wear an outfit, it was commented on by Queen Elizabeth was regularly, people would say, oh, she was wearing that dress that she wore last in Eight years ago. Yeah. They'd always be out of the first of them now. There's still a sense that royal women are not able to wear the same clothes without comment. I don't remember anyone commenting about any kings wearing the same suit.

Yeah, they still don't. So she is supposed to be representing France and representing the superiority of French culture. Her stylist designs, Rose Bartin designs all her dresses. 300 years might sound excessive. It's not as bad as Josephine. Napoleon's Josephine. She could top 900 a year. Wow.

So that's three a day. But again, Mahantoinette finds herself criticised, you know, devil you do, devil you don't. She's criticised for spending too much on over-the-top outfits. But then she's also criticised when she tries wearing simpler clothes. So there's a really famous dress that's called the chemise al-A-Réne, which was made out of white muslin rather than French silk. And it's seen, by the standards of the time, as a really casual garment. The formal French court dresses, you've got the tight corsets, you've got the giant skirts.

This is much, much looser. It's a sort of neoclassical. We're heading towards Jane Austen sort of style. It's almost a slip, isn't it? It's almost a slip. It looks like an underdress. Well, it must have looked completely bananas when you compare it to what everyone else was wearing. It must have thought, are you wearing your night dress?

It was, yeah, exactly. And she was painted wearing it, and that caused a huge Ferrari because that was considered to be an indecent dress for the Queen. of France to be wearing for a formal portrait. There's a lot going on. There's a lot going on. There's another rumour, of course. She was given a private sort of palace,

Petitriennon, and there's a rumour that she goes there to sort of relax and that she role plays as a particular thing. Do you want to guess what that would be that she was cosplaying as? Well, I imagine she'd be cosplaying as something that is very far removed from who she is. So maybe she was cosplaying as a servant.

Oh, it's not far off, especially. A lady in waiting. Not far off. Very, very close. Kate. So this petit trianon was given to her by her husband, Lou the 16th, and she uses it as a space where she can go to be with her friends. So you could only enter if you'd been invited by the Queen.

Even the king had no right to go unless she invited him there. It's a very highly stylised pastoral setting. So she not only has this little miniature palace, but she has a farm. The Hamo de la Réne. The Amme de la Rennes. She has a theatre built there so that she and her. her friends can put on plays. And that leads to this rumour that she's pretending to be a shepherdess.

With sort of pink sheep. With pink sheep. I think really it's that she's acting in pastoral plays, where she might have been a lady in waiting or a shepherdess because of the vogue for pastoral plays at the time. And it gets twisted in the rumours because people aren't happy. At Versailles, the king and the queen are public, figures. Anyone can turn up at Versailles and go and watch them eat. But this is a very private

space. And because they don't know what going on there, people make it up. Right. And so they're saying she's cosplaying as little bo-peep. She's sort of, you know, having a... You know, it's cutesy little pink sheep. She doesn't know what she's doing. She's pretending to be a real peasant girl. But of course, she's the Queen of France. What she'd plan at. Are you after more fascinating conversations about the past? Well, History Extra might be just the podcast for you. Made by the team behind BBC History Magazine, the History Extra podcast brings you gripping historical stories,

compelling interviews with the world's leading historians, and the real history behind your favourite films and TV shows. Coming up, we've got deep dives into Tudor Life, the Nazis on trial, the real story of the gunpowder plot, and plenty more. So to join us on our journey into the past, just search for the History Extra podcast wherever you live. listen to podcasts. And meanwhile, another huge scandal breaks out.

This one involving a very famous necklace. It's called the Diamond necklace affair. What happens? A con artist tries to persuade the former French ambassador to Vienna to buy a necklace to get him back into Marie-Antonet's favour. This is a necklace that Louis XIV had ordered for his mistress, but never bought. And Marie-Antonet had turned it down. The former French ambassador Roan thought that it was a good way of getting back in the Queen's Good Books, buys it,

and then finds that he's been completely duped by the con artist who's taken the jewels and done a runner. Yeah, and he's hired an actress to perform as the Queen, right? So there's a sort of con in there. And Paul Marion Twinnett's sort of left going, hang on, what? I've never even heard of this guy. Yeah, the Queen. Yeah, so Roan thought that he was meeting the Queen when he was actually meeting a look-alike sex worker. Right. And everyone believed that that was entirely plausible that he might meet the Queen in the gardens of Versailles at night.

And therefore nobody thought that that was anything out of the ordinary. So far had her reputation slumped by then. Oh dear. Easily confused. Yeah, Jen, do you feel sorry for Rohan being duped by this actress performing in the garden at dusk, I suppose, in the dark? Do I feel sorry for him? I do feel sorry for him in as much as he went in good faith

and he thought he was speaking to the Queen. I always feel like whenever anyone is a victim of fraud, I feel sorry for them, even if it's like, come on, dude, what are you talking about? Exactly. And Marie Antoinette is the victim of the fraud biggest of all, because everyone thinks that she orchestrated it. And she'd already turned down these jewels. Twice. And she could have had the king buy them for her. No problem.

She felt that they were too expensive, and that wasn't an appropriate expense given the state of the economy. I mean, that's the irony is that she never wanted them. She thought they were inappropriate amount of money to be spent, and she still got completely hung out to dry. Yeah, story of her life. So here's where I think maybe she's getting a hard. hard rap because it doesn't sound to me that within the world that she lives in in that sort of aristocratic sphere that she is working particularly outside of that in terms of luxury

spending a huge amount of money on clothing it all seems to be fitting in within the parameters of what is expected of a of a queen why does she get such a hard rap from the french people i think the key to the answer to that question is that it's not initially the french people It's those at court that she's alienating because she doesn't want to be with any of the old guard. She wants to be with young people. And there's a very substantial group who are anti-Austrian who think that Austria have somehow tricked France into this alliance

and that Austria is getting a better deal out of the alliance and France's. Even though France's economy is in the toilet. Yes. And Austria is like the head. of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which is doing very well at that point, I imagine. They're buzzing. Certainly not struggling financially

in the way that the French right economy is struggling. So it's really the fact that she's alienated everyone at court. That's what's got her into trouble. And she's still seen as foreign by the French people. Remember, the Austrians were enemies for 200 years. It's like a long-standing thing. So she's still foreign.

She's not politically astute enough. And she's been made a patsy for this sort of diamond heist. And we start getting much more aggressive attacks on her in the media and we're going to now show you something pretty graphic. In fact, Jen, I'm afraid I have to say, we're going to show you something pornographic now. Holy moly. And we have checked with your agent in advance.

We're not going to force this upon you without some consent, but I'm going to ask you to turn over your paper and describe for the listeners what you can see. Okay. Okay, that's interesting. I can see what looks to be a okay, this is going to be difficult. It is a phallus

And it is kind of almost like an ostrich But the neck Why are you making me do this? The neck is a member And I don't mean just I'm not talking about a member of the House of Commons I'm talking about the man's member With the legs of a horse

And the tail of something It's kind of like half ostrich, half penis I can't say half, that's a third horse Is that right? Yeah, I think that's what I think it's fair It's basically an erect penis with legs and a tail and there's a man riding it and Mariantoinette is stroking the member bit.

Yeah. So it's a play on words. The French for Otrouche is ostrich and Otriche is Austrian. So that's why we get quite a few puns. So it's a dick pun. Yes, it's a dick pun. Classy pornography this.

So the next picture is, is it Marianne Antoinette sitting on a chaise long or a sofa? And there appears to be a man hitching up her dress and I can't actually see what he's doing because my eyesight is so bad but I imagine he's well, it's probably He's having little fondle

He's having a fondle of something And there's a chap who's just opened the door He can see what's going on Yeah and we have two other images as well We have a scene of a lesbianism And we have a threesome So these are I should have started with that third picture

Why did we start with a member That would have really warmed me into this Yes I feel like the man on an ostrich cock was probably the strike image Yeah, it was a bit much. So are the lesbians, is that Mariantoinette as well? Yes. Yes.

And is that her with her best friend, the governess? Yes. Yes, Madame de Pollyac. I don't even know these two women, but already I can tell. These are kind of publicly printed, right, Kate? They are attack. We call them pornography because that's, you know, in terms of the kind of sexual level. But these are forms of attack against Marie Antoinette that are designed to humiliate her,

to scandalise her to say that she's horny, she's cheating on the king, can't be trusted, all of those things. All of the above. So we've both got prints like the ones that you've just looked at. We've also got pamphlets, which are sometimes in diverse or plays. From the early 1770s onwards, she's accused of nighttime sexual encounters in the palace gardens from before she's even queen. They've become increasingly pornographic throughout the 1780s. Titles include the uterine furors of Marie Antoinette, the Royal Uterine Furet, the Royal

Orgy, the Royal Dildo. She's frequently depicted in lesbian relationships with her friends, both Madame de Pollynec, and another of her friends, the Princess de Lombale. She's often shown with Louis's brother, younger brother, the Comte d'Artois, or with the Marquis de Lafayette. Oh, really? Who had... The Marquis de Lafayette was...

Have you seen Hamilton? He's in Hamilton. Yeah, he... Yes, I've seen Hamilton. Yes, he's a Frenchman in Hamilton. Oh, okay. who went and helped the Americans in the American Revolution War. He was a teenager who went over with his money.

Right. Okay. Did they have a close friendship? Or are they just completely made up? They're just making everything up at this point. They don't really... They're picking names out of the air. They're accusing her of infidelity. The King can't possibly have fathered the children. Look at that big gap.

She's unnatural. She's got all these desires. She's obsessed with having intercourse wherever she can, with whomever she can. the list of people she's supposed to have slept with in these pamphlets and prints is ridiculously long. They're trying to destroy her reputation and with it the reputation of the French monarchy.

I mean, this all happens now to women, isn't it? I mean, the misogyny's off the scale. But we can see this kind of, you know, we do this with women in the public eye to this day. And how effective was it? Because, I mean, this sort of stuff works. Yeah, it really was. The king tries to have copies seized and burnt,

but it's very hard. You can't control all print outlets. Yes, you don't need many of them. You only need one to survive. We think, again, some of this initially is coming from the court to Paris, rather than it being the people of Paris creating this for themselves. But she was cheating on the king, we believe. What was the name of the real lover?

So the love of her life was a Swedish officer called Axel von Ferssen. That is quite a hot name, actually. It is a hot name, isn't it? I immediately in my head I'm just seeing a kind of swede in a kind of chemise shirt just being like, hello. I think the jury is still out as to how far they went. Oh, interesting. Okay. I think now most people will say she probably did have a physical relationship with him.

Modern technology has allowed us to read their encoded letters and his. diaries. So he censored passages. He scribbled all out the passages where she talks about how much she loves him. And modern technology is allowed, with using infrared, can see the ink beneath the scribbles out. He really should have destroyed the letters because if they'd have got into the wrong hands, it really would have completely destroyed her reputation. But he couldn't bear to be parted from the letters. So he kept them, but hid the bits where she talks about him as the love of her life. And what was this chap's name? He was an Axel? He was a Swedish officer. He was a Swedish count, wasn't he?

And he was there at the court on behalf of Sweden? On behalf of Sweden. Okay, so it was an ambassador role. He's the kind of fancy man. But all these other kind of rumors and scandals are, you know, are false. A false and designed to destroy her. So you've got this kind of real rising anti-monicist. The movement is growing bigger and bigger against the monarchy, but also personally against Marianne. So, Kay, obviously, Marie Antoinette's political career is in the context of what will become the French Revolution. which is caused by many factors, but what do we need to know? The state was left virtually bankrupt after supporting the American War of Independence.

Louis XVIth called a meeting of the Estates General to ask for permission to raise emergency funds, but instead they declared themselves a National Assembly and the people of Paris worried that the King will suppress this new assembly stormed the state prison, the Bastille, on the 14th of July 1789, and that marks the beginning of what we now call the French Revolution. Yes, and we did an episode on the American National.

Revolution. And we commented then that the irony that the French supporting American republicanism ended the monarchy in France. So it is a sort of bit of a blunder that one. Just a bit. Yeah, fascinating time. But the obvious upshot is the French Revolution comes to the palace. And what happens to Marionnezzan and her family and her husband? In October 1789, a group of women marched to Versailles demanding bread and the king. At this point, the people of Paris still think that the king can save them. They're starving, the king has been misled by his courtiers over in Versailles, bring him back to Paris and all will be well.

They're relocated to the Tuileries Palace in Paris, and over the next two years, face increasing demands for constitutional reform. So the revolutionists are trying to make a constitutional monarchy along the lines of the British system. but Louis is reluctant to sacrifice any of the notion of kingship that he feels he's inherited from Louis XIV. So there's a tension between wanting to be popular and not doing anything that would lead the nobility to lose any of their privileges. And in the end, on the 20th of June 1791, the royal family, try to flee France.

Yeah. And it's been a tragic life, but this is genuinely quite funny. So I'm sorry to make light of it, but like it really is, because the King's, and Queen try and do a runner. And it does not go well, Jen. I don't know much about the French Revolution, but I know it doesn't end well for these two. No. How do they try to escape then? Do they go incognito? Of course they do. Of course they do. They disguise themselves as ordinary people. They wouldn't know an ordinary person if it hit them in the face. No, they wouldn't. The first problem is...

Oh, blah, me, governor. They got lost. So Marie Antoinette got lost trying to leave the palace because they're trying to... They don't go anywhere in the palace unaccompanied. This is not their normal palace. This is a Twilier. Palace where they've been sort of rehoused by the revolutionaries. She gets a bit lost trying to find the rendezvous point so they can actually leave.

They then stop for meals as if they've got all the time in the world. They think once they're out of Paris, all will be well. So they stop. They've got a ridiculous amount of luggage with them. They get further and further behind the Shedule. Are they in the royal carriage? They're not in the royal carriage now. They're not actually,

it doesn't actually say Royals trying to escape on the side, but it might as well. frankly, for the speed at which they're trying to get... They keep stopping for food. Yeah, they're recognised, unsurprisingly. The king has quite a prominent nose. Well, there's a famous thing that, of course, his face is on the coins. His face is on the coins.

So he tries to pay for lunch with his face. Yes. And the guy's like, that's you? That's you. And he stops to ask for directions at one point. I mean, it's just such a hopeless attempt. Hello, good sir. Ordinary man.

Hello, I'm not a king. Where is Austria? They're brought back to Paris And the revolutionaries have to pretend that they were kidnapped Because it's just taken them two years To write a constitutional monarchy So they pretend they were kidnapped It's so embarrassing that they try to run

It doesn't go well from there I mean Do they not understand that the priority When running away is the running away bit Yes Everything else is secondary Honestly, these people Although saying that

I got lost on the way here to the BBC today I turned left instead of right and I didn't know where it was. To be honest with you, I can't get here unless someone walks me here, so I don't know what I'm talking about. So I am the Mariantoinette of podcasting. Okay, so I mean, obviously fast turns to tragedy, you know, we've had our little laugh there, but actually we know how this ends. The King is executed first. And then there's 1792, isn't it?

1793, the King is executed. Sorry, yes, 793. He's executed first. He's accused of treason. He's found guilty of treason. He is executed. That is an incredibly serious thing. Marianne to Annette, they don't, it's not the same day,

it's not the same week, and so they clearly have a bit of a kind of pause. So are they debating what to do with her? There is debate about what to do with her. They consider putting her on trial, they consider sending her into exile, they wonder about exchanging her for political prisoners. I think part of the background to the discussion on what to do with her is the years of propaganda that have made much of her sexual appetites.

During the revolution, we get the obsession with being anti-Marie Antoinette crystallising into attacks on the undesirability of women holding power. So we've got a double thing going on here. It's not just that she's queen. It's also that in the run-up to the revolution, she had started taking on greater political power. So in the end, in October 1793, she's given a two-day show trial in effect. she's accused of orchestrating orgies,

planning a massacre of the National Guards, liaising with foreign enemies, Austria, obviously. So writing to her brother to say help. Writing to her brother to say help. And the only one that really triggers a response from her in the court is that she's accused of incest with her son. Okay. I mean, Saba, look, she hasn't behaved brilliantly.

She's very spoiled and has literally done nothing for the people of France. However, she's not guilty of any of those things. I mean, she's guilty of being a product of a class of people that are completely, you know, have no sort of real idea about how the French people live. On the day that she's killed, is that the day that only Marie Antoinette's life is taken, or is it, do they do these sort of mass kind of killings

where it's like, well, we're going to kill you in the morning, they'll kill you in the afternoon? Yes, it's a bit of a conveyor belt by October 1793. You see, this is. is the thing, all those people that were putting out all of this stuff about Marie Antoinette and, you know, this kind of like really indulging on how the aristocracy have no morals and have no sort of values, value system, kind of backfired on all of them because they all got their heads taken, didn't they? They're all killed. More ordinary people

are killed during the period of the terror than members of the nobility. But her best friends are killed, aren't they? Her best friends are killed in, well, no, Madame de Polignac escapes France. Oh, does she? She escapes. L'Ambal. But the Princess de Lambal is killed and then mutilated. Yeah, terrific. And her head put on a spike.

And they're stopped. Not all of the revolutionaries are completely bloodthirsty. There are some that prevent the pike with the Princess de Lombard's head on it being taken to Mariont. They wanted her to kiss her friend. But they were actually, the revolution was stopped from doing that. But that was only after they'd mutilated her body and cut her head off. He seemed to hate women more than men. Yeah.

It doesn't sound like the men, including the king, got as bad a rap as... And, no, I mean, you're right. I think you are. You are right. And her children, the two surviving children... The son will become, became, Louis the 17th on his father's death. Yeah. The king is dead long leave the king. So, child became king.

He dies shortly afterwards in prison, having been looked after, looked after, in inverted commas by the revolutionaries. Sure. Not a well child. He dies. Marie Therese will survive. She will become the Duchess of Ongulem and will help Louis's younger brother become Louis the 18th. Napoleon famously said of her,

she was the only one in the family to wear trousers. She does live a full adult life. She's the only one who does. So Marianne Tuenette was executed 16th of October 1793. And her last words, rather extraordinarily, do you want to tell us what they work? Allegedly? Yeah. I don't know how much to three are in actually her words.

Allegedly he said to the executioner, pardon me, sir, I did not do it on purpose after she stepped on his foot. Oh, that's heartbreaking. Isn't it? It's really good. That's so heartbreaking. Yeah. So she was executed.

Do you want to guess how old she was at this point on her death? What are we 17? I don't know. So she's like young. What is she? 20, you know, 20s? No, 37. Oh, she's 37?

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. It's not, I mean, we met her as. as a kid coming to France at 14. Oh, yeah, she's only 14 when she came. So, I mean, 37's still no age, really, is it? Yeah. I mean, I'm well past it.

Yeah, so that's why I keep saying. 37's young. It's really young. A whippersnapper. No, it's horrible, isn't it? It's, I mean, extraordinary life. I think, you know, as you said at the beginning of the episode, Jen, a lot of the things we know about her are not true,

but actually a lot of the things that the French people knew about her were not true. It's, you know, she was the victim of scandal and rumour and gossip. Yeah, and a very deliberate and successful smear campaign, which really undid all of the inability to a degree and the French court as a whole. It's weird, isn't it? The more you learn about these people, the more you give them like a third dimension.

I can see that she's incredibly flawed human being, but also she was a product of what the court created. Thank you. I really enjoyed that, I thought it was fascinating. The nuance window! Well, it's time now for the nuance window. This is where Jen and I dress up like shepherdesses for two minutes with our pink sheep, while Professor Kate takes centre stage to tell us something we need to know about.

Mary Antoinette. My stopwatch is ready. Kate, take it away. It can be tricky to untangle myth and reality with Marie Antoinette, because what we know largely come from things others wrote about her rather than from her own words. Opinions then and now are contradictory. Was she a monster or a martyr?

Was she thoughtless and frivolous or a scheming villain? Was she depraved or a devoted mother? Did she bring down the French monarchy with her extravagance, or is she a proto-feminist influencer and role model? Versailles was a palace of mirrors and multiple reflections. Marie Antoinette reflects back at us, our own biases, so to different people she will mean quite different things. You'll have to make up your own mind, I'm afraid. It is important, though, to distinguish more clearly between the teenage Marie Antoinette and the person she was 20 years later. Ill prepared to become queen, age 19. She would did end up taking on more political responsibilities when Louis was paralysed by depression

and indecision. But the task of modernising the monarchy and solving the economic crisis without impinging on the privileges of the nobility was an impossible one. During the revolution she tried to save the monarchy, writing a huge number of letters to revolutionaries as well as her brother on the throne in Vienna to try to effect change. She would have seen herself as acting in France's interests, when in fact it's the point in her life when she's most actively working against them. Just another of the many contradictions that make up her life. Her most tangible legacy is the impact she had on interior design, one of her most enduring passions. Furniture and objecta from this period are usually labelled Louis XVIth, but it would be much more accurate

to call them Marie Antoinette's style, as her interest in fabrics and furniture very much marked the late 18th century. Her taste is now appreciated as elegant and refined, a marketable brand for everything from tea to tote bags. Our collective fascination with her riches to rags story, she has no sign at all of fading. And given that powerful women in society are still seen with suspicion, and that tensions between privacy and celebrity have taken on a new urgency in a social media age, Marie Antoinette's life will undoubtedly continue to be relevant and generate debate for years to come.

Two minutes on the dot, incredible timekeeping. Wow, look that. That's impressive, because I've spread up, because I was about five seconds over when I practiced it yesterday. Oh, well done, Kay. Thank you so much. That's fascinating. The mutability, the fact that she was all things to all people.

Really interesting, Jen, isn't it? Yeah. And also the parallels about celebrity now, you know, you can see them clearly, especially with, like, social media. I got a book about the history of celebrity. I described her as a celebrity, as an early celebrity. Definitely. And with the, because the printing press existed

and think people were able to get things out so much easier. I mean, it was much easier to augment your celebrity, but it was much easier to pour you down as well. Exactly, exactly. People will believe what they want. to believe. And still do. Yeah.

So what do you know now? Okay, well, it's time now for the, so what do you know now? This is our quick fire quiz for Jen to see how much she had learnt. I mean, Jen, you've been writing some serious notes. I've written some really serious notes, but really right of the beginning, Kay, I just want to let you know, I forgot to start the notes at the beginning. I was listening and then went, I've got no idea what you said then. But look, let's see what I've got.

Okay, we've got ten questions for you. about an awful lot and maybe some of the earlier stuff maybe not so well covered in your notes but let's see question one what was Mary Antoinette's name when she was born Maria Antonia it was she was Archduchess Maria Antonia question two named two ways that Empress Maria Theresa tried to make her teenage daughter more appealing to the French well she had braces on her teeth yeah and she has her ballet lessons

that she could glide into court exactly glide like a swan Question three, what ominous event happened during Marie Antoinette and Dauphin-Louis' wedding celebrations? Well, there was a fireworks display that went horribly wrong at the Temple of Hyman and over 130 people were killed in a crush. Well done, that's very good knowledge. Question four, name one theory about why the couple did not consummate their marriage for seven long years. Something to do with poor Louis the 16th's foreskin. Yeah, or something like that, yes.

Yes. Or something like that. A medical, a medical. situation. Or they were just doing it wrong. They were probably doing it wrong as well. They didn't know what they were doing. Question five. How many new dresses did Marie Antoinette apparently order per year? 300. Yes, a perfectly sensible number. Question six. Can you name one of the supposed sexual partners

Marion-Antoinette was depicted with in pornographic pamphlets? Her best friend and her name was Madame de Pontiac. Yeah, polyniac. Yeah, very good, yeah, absolutely. There's also the brother of the King Lafayette and the Princess de Lamballe. Question 7. According to gossip, how did Marion Tuenot supposedly relax at the Petit Trinant Palace? She would cosplay as a shepherdess, shepherding pink sheep. Yes, very good. And doing plays, we think, yeah.

Question 8. What jewellery-based scandal was Marion Tuenette tied to in 1785? She was tied to the Diamond Necklace Affair. She was. So much to make a movie. Question nine, what was the name of her Swedish lover? Do you remember? The love of her life. Axel. Hang on a second. I can let me to check my notes.

Axel von van... I can't read my handwriting. Von Fet... I don't know. Farquhar, yeah. Let's call him that. Axel von Farquhar. Lord Farquhar for Shrek.

I literally can't read my handwriting. Yeah, I will let you have it because you clearly know the answer. But yeah, von Thesson. A Swedish count. Yeah, von Ferson. This for a perfect 10, Jen. Okay.

What were Marianne's supposed last words? I'm sorry I didn't mean to do that. That's right. For stepping on the executioner's foot as he was about to execute. Well, Jen, never in doubt, 10 out of 10. Well, I really enjoyed it. Thank you.

Well, thank you so much, Professor Kate. Thank you, Jen. And listener, if you want more from Jen, we've got episodes on Emma of Normandy. And, of course, we did Hernan Cortez and Melinsin. That was very interesting. And for more controversial French queens, listen to our episode on Catherine de Medici.

That one was a fun hoot. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to Your Dead to Me on BBC Sounds in the UK to get episodes 28 days early. But I just like to say a huge thank you. To our guests in History Corner. incredible Professor Catherine Asprey from the University of Warwick. Thank you, Kate.

A pleasure. And a comedy corner. We had the brilliant Jen Brister. Thanks again, Jen. Oh, what a treat, Greg. Thank you. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we engage in some more historical myth-busting. But for now, I'm off to go and get my hands on my own delicious swede. Keep it classy people. I'm talking about the root vegetable. Bye! That's a good one. Thank you. You're dead to me as a BBC Studios production for BBC Radio 4. Hi guys, this is Rylan, and I'm here to tell you about how to be in love from BBC Sounds. Now, as a single divorcee, I feel ready to find love again, but I want to see if there's a better way of going about it.

In this series, I'm going to sit down with 12 incredible guests who are really going to help me rediscover what love truly means. and how I can find it again. People like Stephen Frye, Louis Theroux, Matt and Emma Willis, and many more. So join me on this journey as I explore how to be in love. Listen on BBC Sounds. Are you after more fascinating conversations about the past? Well, History Extra might be just the podcast for you. Made by the team behind BBC History Magazine,

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