You're Dead to Me - Medieval Irish Folklore (Live)

Episode Date: June 2, 2023

In this special live episode, recorded at the Hay Festival, Greg Jenner is joined by Dr Gillian Kenny and comedian Seán Burke to learn about medieval Irish folklore.We’re focusing on the lore and stories from Gaelic Irish culture. Gaelic culture remained the dominant set of cultural and societal beliefs on the island of Ireland well into the 17th century until it was destroyed by a succession of English invasions. But what were these beliefs and how did the Christianisation of Ireland from the 5th century onwards amalgamate pre-Christian stories into it? From fairy darts to banshees, through some unusual ways of warding off the evil eye, this is a jovial jaunt across some ancient myths and legends. Research by Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow Written by Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner Produced by Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner Assistant Producer: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow Project Management: Isla Matthews Audio Producer: Steve HankeyYou’re Dead To Me is a production by The Athletic for BBC Radio 4.

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Don't tempt me. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And that hum of excitement you can hear in the air is because we're coming to you live from the Hay Literary Festival in Wales.

Say hello, audience! CHEERING AND APPLAUSE So today we are meandering back to medieval Ireland to learn all about Irish magic and... I did an Irish there, didn't I? Sorry. To learn all about Irish magic and folklore in the Middle Ages and to help me separate history from hocus-pocus, I'm joined by two very special guests.

In History Corner, she's a historian of medieval and early modern Ireland, specialising in women, gender and folklore. She's returning to You're Dead to Me after her raucous run in our Gráinne o Máli episode, Absolute Chaos It Was, and she's writing a book about that subject as well. It's Dr Gillian Kenny. Welcome back, Jill. And in Comedy Corner, he's a comedian, writer and actor. You might have caught him on the hilarious sketch show No Worries.

If not, the Michael Fry show or Hollywood Hijack. And it's very likely you've seen him on Tintinette because he's one of those young people who does viral sketch comedy and he does them very well. It's Sean Burke. Thank you, Sean. Thank you. Thank you. Thrilled to have you on, Sean. First timer.

Yeah, yeah, first timer. So I have to ask the contractually obliged question. Did you do medieval Irish history at school? I think. Good. It's a while ago now. Counterintuitively, we studied a lot of American history in school. That's the Joe Biden curriculum.

Yeah, yeah. We're still so proud of JFK to this day. So what do you know? But we start as ever with the so what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener and audience, hello, know about today's subject. And I'm guessing most of you don't know a huge amount about medieval ireland let alone medieval irish magic and folklore perhaps you're conjuring up vague images of banshees frolicking around forests although now i'm just thinking of sad colin farrell and his lovely donkey um too soon man too soon the donkey was robbed should have won an oscar yeah but yeah pop culture is not exactly bursting with references to Irish magic.

You can get glimpses in films like Hellboy 2. Not everyone's fave, I guess. It's got characters there that are based on the mythological race called the Tuatha Dé Danann. You've got sinister fairies in Jonathan Strange, Mr Norrell. Anyone seen Excalibur, Arthuriana? That's got a sort of Irish-y vibe to it. John Borman. And you've got countless cultural references in films and books and TV

to fairies and elves and other worlds. But what else do we need to know? Right, Dr Jill, start with the basics. What is Ireland? No, come on, we can do better than that. No pressure, as long as you've got. How are we defining medieval Ireland? Because you as a historian go longer into the medieval period than I do as a historian in the medieval period.

Okay, so presumably everyone knows where Ireland is. We'll just start with that one. It's just over to the left, the one that looks like a teddy bear. So it does go a little bit longer. So it goes into the 16th and 17th centuries because Gaelic Ireland, which

was the predominant culture on the island, spread into there. It was sadly destroyed in the 16th and 17th centuries, but we won't talk about that today. It's a comedy show. It's a comedy show. Who destroyed it? I don't know if a Welsh might understand it.

Any Welsh in the audience? No. Anyway, today... So today we'll talk mostly about Ireland after the conversion to Christianity in the 5th century, as that's where we start to get most of our literary sources. And this conversion brought with it huge economic, social and intellectual changes. But we do have some idea about what happened in pre-Christian Ireland. There's some historical sources, but we use archaeology as well.

There's certainly an idea that there was a kind of a nature worship around forests and wells. Of course, there's the Druids, which people will, of course... Love a Druid. ..be aware of. But, of course, when the Christians come along in the 5th century, they kind of run those out, and then they start to write down the oral tales,

but, of course, everything has a veneer of Christianity on it. OK, so 5th century is the Christianisation of Ireland. Is that sort of St Patrick's vibe? Is that era? Yeah, that's St Patrick lands then and then runs around battling druids and does the whole shebang, which I'm sure Sean knows about as a good Irishman. Yeah, the whole shebang. Drove the snakes out as well while he was at it.

The whole thing with the shamrock. The logo launch. Resounding success. How are you imagining life in Medieval Ireland, Sean? What's your go-to image in your head? Lots of fields, a few little huts. Probably cheaper rent than I imagine nowadays. So not too bad, to be honest, overall. Jill, what do we mean by Medieval Ireland in terms of life and identity culture? Well,

Sean pretty much had it. No, he didn't. Thank you. Anyway, the story is medieval Ireland is, of course, it is a tale of two cultures, basically, for most of the Middle Ages, particularly the later period. You have Gaelic Irish and the English Irish or the Anglo-Irish they were known, and they took their culture from England. But it's a real mishmash. There's no real clear delineation. And gradually over time, groups become more and more Gaelicised really. So what we're talking about today are really Gaelic Irish culture and beliefs and society. So within that, it's a very hierarchical, it's a very patriarchal system.

There are what used to be kings, they became lords. There's loads of little kingdoms and lordships that gave allegiance to kind of overlords. And this is medieval Europe, so of course it's rural. People are working the land. Fields? Yeah, see? Come on, got one right.

I just talk way more, but he sums it up beautifully. Succinct. So there's widespread violence violence of course there is because it's a warrior society but what's really interesting about medieval Gaelic Ireland to me is that there is an intellectual class which is right at the top and these are the bards the olives the professors and they have huge rights and absolute respect at the top so these are historians were right at the top of the tree. So my ancestors knew what was what. So there's also, of course, down below them,

you have your usual medieval kind of trades. You have merchants, farmers and tradespeople and blacksmiths and stuff like that. So that's it in a nutshell. Comedians? So men were allowed to be kind of this. Okay. Okay. Sorry.

Women were not. So there was types of comedian called a braggator, which was a professional farter. Oh, yeah, that still exists. I'm saying, Sean, do you know what I mean? It's an option. Do you know what I mean? If the whole thing doesn't work out...

I do that for free all the time. If I could monetize that. Let's do it. Yeah, I'm on to a winner. I'll be your advisor. So yeah, there's comedians in medieval Ireland, but they are always male. Okay.

All right. Listen, it wasn't perfect. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So we've mentioned how the conversion to Christianity happens in the 5th century, and that's going to impact on language and culture, belief systems.

But there's another big influence coming down the tracks as well. It's the infamous V word. Sean, what is the V word in the medieval period? Vegans? I was going to go Vikings. Vegans is fine. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's what I was going to say. No, Vikings. Yeah, yeah, of course. The Vikings come a Viking. It's a verb, to vike. I vike, you vike, we vike. Is it really? Oh, enjoy a good vike from time to time.

Well, Dublin's a Viking settlement, isn't it? It is, yeah. So I'm from Dublin, so I'm technically Viking, is what you're saying. You've got the moustache. Yeah, so. The listeners at home will just have to trust us on that one as well.

Could you rub it on the microphone with that? Are you picking that up? They're like, at home, they're like, well, that's a thick one. Yeah, I told you so. So, Jill, Vikings in Ireland, why is this important? Why should we care about Vikings coming over, bringing their cheeky hats?

Probably substantially better looking, but don't quote me on that. Who says Sean's a Viking, so, you know. Look, they came over in the late 8th century. Ireland experienced relatively little raiding or invasion before then. Now, the Vikings, as you know, look, they came over in the late 8th century. Ireland experienced relatively little raiding or invasion before then. Now, the Vikings, as you know, came over. They weren't Christians at that stage, so they went around rampaging, killed monks,

raided churches, monasteries, and all the rest of it. But that's one story. The other story, of course, is what they were, which was traders and farmers, and they settled in Ireland. And they built our cities, places like Dublin, places like Waterford. These are Viking cities. And they clustered along those. Before the Vikings came and developed these settlements,

there weren't what you might naturally call a city in Ireland before. We had proto-cities around the great monasteries, like Clonmac Noice, which was called Ciarán Shining City. But a Vikingiking town which is what you would more easily recognize a town to be is what they came over and and set up lovely kieran shining city is a sounds like a casino oh my god yes it does i've never thought about that before free drinks are kieran shining city you've also got the english showing up sorry and that doesn't go so well and we can move past that nice and quickly because as I said

comedy show but we also get a special guest appearance from the Welsh wow don't show too soon because it's basically the Welsh you invaded oh you've lost the room because it's basically the Welsh you invaded.

Oh, well, well, well. You've lost the room. But all I'm saying is you were owed one because in the early medieval period, the Irish used to raid along your coasts and catch slaves. So fair enough. OK. Tit for tat. We'll give that one to the Welsh.

Do you know what I mean? Wasn't... They're rising up again. There we go. OK, OK. Let's go one to the Welsh. Do you know what I mean? Wasn't... They're rising up again. There we go. OK, OK. Let's go. Close the gates. We're outnumbered here.

Let's take the festival, Sean. Let's do it. Well, isn't St Patrick... Wasn't he from Wales? That's one idea about St Patrick. Another idea about St Patrick is he's from further north. OK, OK. Up nearer Scotland.

What? Yeah, they're not entirely sure it changes. You can't just claim someone's patron saint. Yeah, we can. All right. Two against one, his job. We can take him. I'm fine with that.

Anyway, sorry, yeah. The Welsh came over and gained a bit of revenge. It's fine. There were some English people in there as well. It's fine. But anyway, what happened was, in 1166, the King of Leinster, Dermot McMurray, had been exiled, and he approached Henry II, asking for help to get back the king of Leinster, Dermot McMurray, had been exiled and he approached

Henry II asking for help to get back his kingdom of Leinster and Henry said yes of course because he quite fancied getting a foothold in Ireland. What I think we might nicely term a whole load of back and forth over the medieval period and afterwards but after the English arrived there's a whole shifting pattern of territory controlled by the English king it becomes a real mishmash of different kind of cultures and as I mentioned by the early 16th century about 60% of the island is controlled or influenced by Gaelic lords so it's very heavily Gaelic what's interesting is that this consistent Gaelic identity spread across the island it was very

consistent they used the same language same system of laws and that even spread up into Scotland into what's widely called the Gaeiltocht so it was a whole outward looking Irish speaking world which was kind of very active and very vibrant by that stage there are Irish people going into Iceland aren't there there's the kind of the Norse gales and that sort of idea of Irish stories and culture being brought into Scandinavia. Yes, there is. Can I just tell you one story? I gave a lecture on Viking women once

and an old man stood up and asked a question and he said, is it true that the Vikings took all the best looking women from Dublin? And he was lucky to get out of that room alive. But yeah, there is, there's a whole to and fro. Yeah, Iceland's really interesting because they they have the dna database up there so there's quite a lot of irish yeah interference so that's our historical context we've we've whistled through about a thousand years of history there in about 10 minutes so well done jill very impressive but it's time now to talk about

magic the realm of magic sean what is magic define for me. That's a very conceptual question, Greg. Harry Potter. Springs to mind, but famously English. Things that cannot be explained by, you know, logic and science. Mystical stuff. Okay. Unexplainable things. The supernatural.

Yeah. All right. Are we happy with that definition? Yeah, it does involve some of that, but mostly Irish magic is about influencing material reality through words so words quite literally transform reality um in the irish system whether because of its inherent power in the words themselves or thanks to the intervention of a supernatural being if you make a supplication so words of power have three uses in the irish system it's healing

harming and protection we also see the importance of words in things like place names which were often associated with mystical and mythical beings the land itself is suffused with magic it's named after magical beings there's tara County Meath, which has many mythical associations, said to be the seat of the High King and was named after a mythical woman. In Wrathcrowan in County Roscommon, there's a cave called Uvnagat, the Cave of the Cats,

which since medieval times has been thought of as the entrance to the other world. And that's very much associated with the goddess Morrigan. She's a very fearsome battle goddess who is said to emerge out of there once a year with her host to lay waste. Wow. Where's the entrance to the underworld? The Cave of the Cats.

Wow. Yeah, Ratcrow in County Roscommon, and that's also a place associated with Queen Maeve, who is also a very badly behaved woman. So you said three uses of magic there, healing, also a very badly behaved woman. So you said three uses of magic there. Healing, harming, protection. Yeah. Sean, if you'd only have one of those, would you rather heal,

harm or protect? Oh, I'm such a nice guy, Greg. Yeah, for having said that. I think healing would be nice because the older I get, the more things hurt and so that would be a handy skill to have. It would be nice, because the older I get, the more things hurt. So that would be a handy skill to have.

It would be good, wouldn't it? Yeah. And in terms of transformative magical words, we say, what's the magic word to little kids? And they say, please. Obviously, in our culture, the magic word is tax rebate. The best. We'll say that to anyone, and they're like, yes. What's your favourite magic word? A word that can, in a moment, convert a room to an idea.

Alakazam is probably the cliché one. It's a good word, though, isn't it? Yeah. Abracadabra? Also, there's a food chain in Ireland called Abracababra. And they sell kebabs. And it's magical. So probably abracababra would be my answer.

So many of the magical beliefs we're discussing today, Jill, they come from oral traditions of stories, magical tales and myths that are recorded, they're written down during the Christian era. But they're sorted into what historians call cycles, which has nothing to do with bicycles, it's to do with collections of stories. They are grouped into collections. They feature different beings which appear in the kind of magical tales. And as I said said they were written

down by Christian monks. What is really funny and I'll tell you about them now so some of the monks obviously quite like the sexy Irish battle goddess type and feature them quite heavily whereas other ones don't so you have to know which cycles to go for for your bit of you know, porn.

I don't know. Anyway so they're grouped into these cycles. There's a mythological cycle, and that features the Tuatha Dé Danann, who were mangled in Hellboy 2, as Greg was saying in the beginning. So they're usually translated as tribes of people of the goddess Danann.

They're a supernatural race who live in the Otherworld, and the Otherworld is where you go via certain elements in the Irish countryside, and the Otherworld is where you go via certain elements in the Irish countryside, like the Great Passage Tombs, the Brew. And their enemy are a race called the Formorians, which are depicted as evil and monstrous. The Ulster Cycle, which is set in the mythical parts

of eastern Ulster and northern Leinster. The Fenian Cycle, about a mythical hero called Finn McCool and his band of warriors, the Fianna, and the King's Cycle, which are legends about historical and semi-historical Irish kings. And the Tuatha Dé Danann were said to have acquired magic in the Northern Islands before coming to Ireland. So they are what you might know as the fairies.

And a lot of this activity is listed in an actual book we have called the book of invasions because we don't forget you learn about them a little bit when you're in school you learn some of the stories sometimes like fionn maccool and yeah and things like that which has to be the most nominative determinism like fionn maccool they could have called him hero mclegend you Like, this guy's a badass. And you mentioned fairies. How are you picturing a fairy, Sean? Are we sort of Tinkerbell with Tato?

Yeah, that feels like the Hollywood version of fairies. But as always with these things, I feel like they're probably more fearsome than that in the actual tellings. How big? You thinking this big, small? I'm thinking waist height. Waist height.

But fierce, you know. Small but aggressive. You hear a lot about fairy forts. Like most Irish people. Yeah. Sorry, are we not describing Irish people? Yeah, yeah. The idea of a fairy, I mean, Hollywood has taken it

and made it adorable and cute and small and it's sort of very princessy, but we're not talking that here in medieval Ireland, are we? Fairies are scary. You don't want to mess. You do not want to fuck around and find out with Irish fairies. Let me tell you that. You're going to have to bleep that one out. Sorry, BBC. But the only way I can say this,

they are beings who are immune to our charm. They can be very malevolent. They can love us. They live alongside us in the invisible realm. So the fairy, though, doesn't even begin to describe them. Fairy is a later English name for them. Their original name is the Aishí, and that means people of the hollow hills. In Irish tradition, you never call them by their name because you don't want to get their attention. So there are lots of different names for them so you call them

the gentry the good people the noble people they're always referred to in oblique ways because they could be so unpredictable and capricious when it came to dealing with humans they provide a very handy mechanism within Gaelic medieval Ireland for explaining bad stuff. So if someone died, unfortunately, if you had problems with livestock, if you had crop failures, that's the fairies. You've annoyed the fairies. Of course, you've got like famous fairies, like the Banshee, for example,

who predicted people's deaths by crying out and screeching at them or their loved ones. So the thing about the banshee is, if you hear it, you're not going to die, but someone you know is. Just putting that out there. That's very intense. Yeah.

When I first moved to London, I heard foxes in the night, and I just thought, it's the banshee. It wasn't foxes, though, Sean. It was the foxes. Are you sure, Sean? Oh, yeah, I mean, yeah. Because they've been known to travel. They emigrate as well.

They've emigrated. They're in America and England, I'm just saying. Oh, now I'm freaked out. So the Banshee are fairies, but they're like a sort of elite class of scarier fairy. Scaries. Scary fairies? Scary fairies. Stuff goes wrong, you blame the fairies.

And the Banshee is terrible bedside manner. They're kind of like, somebody knows he's going to die. Ah! So they will scream or they will knock at your window. But they're not the only ones who will turn up for people because fairies would do you a bad turn if you did one for them. There's a belief in Ireland, for example, in things called fairy darts.

Elf darts is another name for them. So it's like bits of stone or they'd fashion into like arrowheads. They were probably like stone age arrowheads that people found. And they would fire them at cattle and cause them some kind of harm. And fairy women are often described, excuse me, as trying to steal away princes or heroes in the midst. So there's one called the Lan on She, and she steals away handsome young men. Yeah, alright. And there's a lot of that.

I went missing as the Lan on She stole me away. Okay. So she steals them away, and she has her way with them. And then if they survive it, they will live short but extraordinary lives so i'm just saying you can you know is there a dating app where you can um

sign up for this it's short but extraordinary guaranteed silver lining it's not so bad yeah maybe hook you up you know or know someone so there's also a belief in changelings for example as well this is where the fairies would swap your baby

and put a fairy baby in its place a changeling and the way you'd know it was a changeling was okay

so your baby would start to smoke a pipe or or play the fiddle. Or start talking in an old man's voice. So then you might go, I think my baby's a fairy. There's a subtle giveaway there. Look, did the baby always smoke with a pipe?

Yeah, kids these days, huh? Basically Stewie from Family Guy. Yeah, yeah, days, huh? Basically Stewie from Family Guy. Yeah, yeah, actually, yeah. We've heard about the kind of elf darts being fired at cattle, and that's obviously a big problem. What we thought we'd do now, actually, Sean, is because you're a sketch comedian and you've got a range of voices and impressions,

we thought maybe we'd give you some role-playing to do. Oh, I'd love a bit of role-playing. We've got some props, we've got some costumes. OK. And we're going to bring them over to you. And then we're going to have our medieval agony aunt, Dr. Jill. She's going to help you and your various characters out with their

medieval magical problems. Sounds great. So we're going to have problem number one. So, Sean, do you want to pop on your appropriate costume? Bag of some fairly stereotypical possessions. Oh my god, is that a flat cap? That is a flat cap. I presume this is for this one.

OK, here we go. Send me getting to character. OK. Centre yourself. Yeah. Dear Dr. Gil, help! Gil? Sorry, they've written Gil.

I forgot it was a hard, it was a soft G. Let's start that again Gil Gil Gil dear Dr. Gil help my cattle have keeled over and I fear they've fallen foul

of fairy darts how can I protect the rest of my livestock from disgruntled fairy folk hi Sean actually it's seen well I should have

I didn't go there do you know what I mean some of us are professional there are a variety of protections against fairy attacks on your cattle the first is an amulet of mistletoe and mountain ash which you will have to use

you may also want to enlist the help of your local friendly cunning folk people who practice healing and defensive magic so these are the cunning men and wise women ban fassa of the irish tradition they can do incantations prayers and so on you must also make sure to avoid disturbing any reported fairy dwellings. There are loads of stories about people being cursed with bad luck if they dig it up in any way or interfered with fairy forts. Fairy forts are early medieval homesteads called rats, ring forts. So avoid.

The only time I hear about fairy forts is when somebody's trying to build a road in Ireland. They're like, no, I'm not touching that. They stopped it. They stopped it. Yeah, it happens. So we've got the great advice there. That's lovely.

Fairies can be mischief makers, but we don't want to unfairly scapegoat them because, you know, they're not always to blame because there's something else to worry about, Sean. The evil eye.

Have you heard of the evil eye? You mean like Sauron? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that man, yeah. Outside of that, no. I mean, it sounds familiar, but I actually don't specifically know. Yeah, weirdly, I know it purely as a pub I used to go to in York. But I don't actually know what it is, so I'm

going to... Do you fancy? The York Mafia are here. Let's take Lancaster and Dawn. Come on, we'll do it. Doctor Jill, what is the evil eye? Because I've heard of it, Sean's heard of it, but what is it? People were genuinely

worried about the evil eye, about the effect on people and animals. There's a source in the 16th century, a Jesuit priest, Father Goode, and he talks about the fact that cunning folk were regularly employed to cure what he called eye-bitten livestock.

Several characters in Irish literature have the evil eye. Balor, king of the Formorians, who had one eye and opened it on the battlefield. It was massive because his stare could, like, paralyse people. That's kind of like Sauron, actually. Yeah, see, I told you. Not far wrong. There's a few options if you get stuck by the evil eye.

In 17th-century Kildare, parents used If you get stuck by the evil eye, in 17th century Kildare, parents used to protect their children from the evil eye by spitting in their faces. Yes! Bring it back! Bring it back! It's not, I don't try that one at home.

Yeah. And even better is the next thing, which is even more effective against the evil eye. So all around Ireland, there are mysterious stone carvings called Shielena Giggs, and they are of old women or hags, Cailach in the Irish tradition. I've no other way of saying this.

Displaying their vulva. I have to get it out. So they are grotesque and they are doing uh just please google it not your work one and the idea is that these vulvas of old ladies are so powerful that they can avert the evil eye. And the older I get, the more I begin to agree with it, I've got to tell you. Yeah. To all the hugs.

All the hugs from the audience. So I think... The silence. Shall we just stop there? Yeah, yeah. Just... So, Sean, thoughts? Sounds good.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, checks out. Just spitting in children's faces and pointing genitals at exits. OK, good. Shall we have another problem? Yeah, that's a handy segue. Can we have problem number two, then, Sean? I think this is a handy segue. Yeah, can we have problem number two then, Sean? This is, I think this is a butter problem.

Right, classic butter problem. Dear Jill, help! The girls are coming over for brunch this weekend and my butter won't churn. How can I make my dairy delicious again? 99 butter churning problems. Okay, that was a big problem in medieval ireland because people liked their dairy so sean sounds like you've got a butter witch on your hands that's a true thing these were beings who in the irish tradition transformed into hares to steal milk from cows

and to prevent your butter from being churned. To drive away a butter witch, Sean, what you have to do is burn the thatch from a suspected butter witch's house. You needed to be sure, or not, if you didn't like her, don't care.

You could also drive the cattle through the ashes or smoke of bonfires on May Eve, or you could try shooting some hares and waiting to see the inevitable, horribly hurt old woman staggering around after it. Okay. Because she turned back into an old woman, not because he was shooting old women. He's shooting hares. Oh, I'm glad you clarified that. woman, not because he was shooting old women. He's shooting hairs. Oh, I'm glad you clarified that. So they are Irish witches. That is

an Irish witch. They steal your butter. Which is probably the least threatening witch you've ever heard. Next problem, I think, really, because we've got plenty of problems to get through, so I think Sean, if we could, can we have problem number three? Okay, here we go. Complex one here. Dear Jill,

help! My husband's a gobshite. Straight to the point. A common problem. Well, Sean, it depends how much you dislike your husband as to how you treat this one. If you're after a divorce, and this wasn't impossible to get,

you could try what's called magic of the bed to make him impotent. Because, we're going straight for the jugular here, because in medieval Irish law, you could divorce your husband if he could not perform in the bedroom. You could, yeah, oh, yeah. could not perform in the bedroom.

You could... Yeah. Oh, yeah. The front row is very interesting. I'm going to address all remarks over here. Oh, yeah. It's like, ooh. You could also divorce him if he was too fat to have sex. That's harsh. Yeah, that is harsh, but they didn't say the same for women because they didn't have a

death wish. Anyway... Anyway, the story is, if you wanted to get rid of him, you could make him impotent, because then you could divorce him, because you could divorce then. Marriage was not religious then. It was entirely secular in the Gaelic-Irish tradition. You could do this kind of magic of the bed. You get in a professional to do it.

And... Well, do the magic. This corner here is just crazy. The magic of the bed involves what's called the supernatural attack of the bed and this involves them driving this wedge via an actual a magical object which they put somewhere at or near or the bed. Now it could be the wife, could be the wife's lover. Clerics were often suspected of stuff like this they would do for money. Now, this actual object, we don't really know what it was, but it was actually called the bone of contention, which

was placed near the bed. And that was what did the magic. He didn't do the bone. Right. Went anti-bone. Is that why people say this is where the magic happens? Yes. Yes, it is. Right, right. So the why people say this is where the magic happens? Yes. Yes, it is. I see, right, right.

So the boner contention is a boner killer. Hey, they're all coming out now. Yeah, I mean, that's probably a bit of a boner killer. Never mind the magic. It's death to bone. Why is there a skeleton in the bed, love? It's kind of killing the vibe. Yeah, it's interesting to know what it was, but we've no idea.

But there is that reference to something, an actual ritual object. And then, because of course, the man couldn't be impotent from anything other than magic. Yes. Of course. It happens to every guy, right? It can't be anything else.

The magic of the bed. Yeah. It has to be his wife attacking him via the magic of the bed. Oh, absolutely. Can we have problem number four, please, Sean? Of course. Of course. Here we go. the bed. Oh, absolutely. Can we have problem number four, please, Sean? Of course, of course. Here we go.

Okay. Dear Jill, help! My wife thinks I'm a gobshite. Again, a common problem in medieval Ireland. Right, your wife thinks you're a gobshite. How do we make it better? Okay. There is a way of making it better.

We know a story from the life of St. Bridget, who was Ireland's premier female saint. She was asked to make a man's wife love him. The man was desperate because his wife couldn't stand the sight of him. So he went to St. Bridget and said, please help. She went, all right. She blessed some water. She uttered what are described as words of power and she made some kind of hand gesture, we don't know what it was, and then, no I have an idea

yeah okay, fine there's a lot of sniggering here to my left this is serious scholarly stuff alright, so then he takes the water and he's supposed to sprinkle it on his wife and she fell madly in love with him so much so that he was like a fisherman or something and she would like try and

follow him out into the sea so it actually went a bit far um so saint bridget though is a really interesting figure she epitomizes the intermingling of magic and christianity at the early stages this is around the fifth century well this story was written down a couple of hundred years later so there's another story about St. Bridget, and a woman came to her to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy, and Bridget went, okay, and she blessed her, and the

fetus disappeared, and that effectively gave the woman an abortion. So Bridget is one of four known abortionist saints in the Irish tradition. So, didn't expect that to come up today, did we? So there's lots of examples of magic, of course, around reproduction and birth,

including spells intended to be written down and tied around the abdomen of pregnant women. It's all about trying to get some agency and power over events over which you had no control. I think it's time for another problem, but this problem... We've got a powerful man in the room now. We've got a king. I've really got a king.

Bear with me. Oh, hello. This has nothing to do with the show. I just like wearing a crown. Dear Jill, help. I've recently become a king. As you can see. Hint, hint. And I'd love to consolidate my power across the land.

Any tips? Well, Sean, to start with, you're going to have to seek out and lie with the sovereignty goddess of Ireland. So she's a symbol of the land, and her union with the king ensures that he becomes a legitimate, what's known as a just ruler, in people's eyes.

So the goddess often manifests as a hag, we're back to there, and then once she has sex with the king, guess what happens? She becomes a beautiful young woman again. An example of this is a story called The Adventures of the Sons of Yocath, and that

features a legendary hero called Niall of the Nine Hostages. He held a load of hostages, so his name does exactly what it says on the tin. Anyway, anyone who knows Daniel O'Donnell, the Irish singer, he's descended from Niall of the Nine Hostages. Half of Donegal is descended from Nile of the Nine Hostages. Half of Donegal

is descended from Nine of the Nine Hostages. Anyone whose surname O'Donnell is supposed to be descended from him. Makes sense. He's a powerful man. Daniel O'Donnell's a hugely powerful man and should be high king. There's also loads of tales about the many husbands of Queen Maeve, who's also represented sometimes

as a sovereignty goddess, so that represents how the sovereignty goddess could change her mind and pick and choose kings because when a king stopped performing properly then he lost favour with the sovereignty goddess and he would lose the kingship so these ideas about the sovereignty goddess are probably based on certainly pre-Christian beliefs or stories about a union between a tribal chieftain god and a local mother goddess. Much of the landscape of Ireland references goddesses. So we have places like the Pabst of Anu in Kerry, which are the breasts of the goddess Anya.

You're surrounded by it in the landscape all the time. The land itself is feminised as a goddess. Wowzers. We're getting to a slightly awkward section. I'm just going to have to read it out. Go for it, Craig. Gerald of Wales, a 12th century monk, one of my favourites, he tells us that the rite of enthronement in medieval Ireland for a king

was he would marry a horse, a white horse. Yes. That's it. No, it's more. Oh, it gets worse. It gets worse. He would then have to have sex with the horse. I knew you were going to say that.

He would then have to kill the horse. He would then make the horse into a soup. And then what does he do with the soup horse? Eat it? No. Give it to someone else? No. Greg. What does he do with the soup horse? Eat it? No. Give it to someone else? No. Greg.

What does he do with the soup, Greg? He bathes in the sexy dead horse soup. Wow. That's very intimate. What the hell? Too intimate. I prefer the other version where you just have to have sex with someone and then they're like that was the best sex I've ever had. I feel 50 years

younger. Yeah. Thanks, I'm the king now. Right. Sounds like somebody pranked that guy. Yes. Oh, you want to be king? Yeah, yeah. Just shag this horse and then bathe in it. Yeah. And then eat it. It had to be a white horse as well. Okay. You know, that's the sort of thing

not even Gwyneth Paltrow would put on goop, but like, it's goop adjacent. It's sort of, you know, it's on the way. All right. I mean, Jill, do we have any sense that this is grounded in some sort of truth or tradition, or is it just a slightly lurid story from the 12th century? So it does have some roots in tradition. I should say Irish kings most likely never actually had sex with a white horse, so then ate it.

But there are parallels in the Vedic tradition of sovereignty manifesting with a white horse so then ate it but um there are parallels in the vedic tradition of sovereignty manifesting as a white mare and the king having a mystical union with it so there is there is something there gerald of wales is an absolute terrible person i can't i mean he's just the worst he's's like a Daily Mail journalist, went back a thousand years, and he just makes stuff up. So Gerald wrote this book, and this was in it. Someone told him this story, he embellished it. He also wrote things like there's a family of werewolves in Ireland.

He wrote that there was a woman in the Midlands who was bearded and had a piece of hair down her back like a one-year foal. That's not beyond the bounds of possibility, that's all I'm saying. And then he also wrote things like there was a fish with three gold teeth that foretold the coming of the Normans. So it's part of a medieval tradition of miraculous tales.

But there is something there. There is definitely something there about white horses and we see it in place names. The idea of a white mare is very powerful in the Irish tradition. Crikey. Three gold teeth and a fish. It's like a sort of hip-hop video with a... Yeah.

Striking visuals there. Yeah. I'm really feeling it now, so I think I'll just wear it for the rest of it. What do you think? Honestly, I sort of fancy you a little bit. It's pretty hot. It's powerful still.

Yeah. All right. I'm a king, man. You're a king. You're rocking it. There's other bad news for kings, though, I'm afraid, because if bathing in horse soup isn't enough, there's also the chance you might just get murdered,

ritually murdered. Oh. How would you imagine that's going to go down? I imagine there's a bit of a theatrical nature to it then. Some jazz hands. Some jazz hands, some lights, smoke, flames, a flashy affair. Real razzmatazz.

Yeah. Is Sean on the money there with his sort of Andrew Lloyd Webber death? Sort of. There probably were some human sacrifices, particularly in the Iron Age. There is some evidence of them in oral tales. They were probably taken out when the Christian monks started to write the stuff down. But archaeology has provided us some interesting examples, what were known as the bog bodies.

The number of kings, Irish kings, killed in legends by their successors is quite significant. So there may have been some kind of ritual killing of a king involved when the new man came and took over. Various stories abound that he was killed at Samhain, which is probably not particularly right. That he was killed as a seven- which is probably not particularly right that he was killed as a seven-year term as king no probably not right a reason for kings to be destroyed is

because if you take it back to that sovereignty goddess idea he was a bad king he was an unjust king he told lies he engaged in tyranny and the sovereignty goddess took her favor back so the land would have had bad crop failures and lots of signs of importance, and they killed them. But there may have been something to it, because we have bog bodies, which were bodies buried at the edges of kingdoms, and they were ritually sacrificed in quite spectacular deaths.

There was even a bit of bathing, but that's if you call being drowned bathing. There's that. Not my go-to definition, to be honest. No, it's call being drowned bathing. OK. It's not my go-to definition, to be honest. No, it's a type of bathing. So you said the seven years might not be true. That might be a bit dubious. So seven is generally seen as a magical number,

but it's associated in the Christian tradition. So it's probably one of those, which we talk about, those overlays that are put on the tails. Even if it's not true, I'm still going to ask Sean, would you take seven years of sweet, sweet power if you knew at the end of it someone's going to come and bathe you to death or whatever the technical language is. It's bathing to death, Sean. Yeah, go on.

You know, that's future me's problem. So, screw him, you know, I'll enjoy the good times while they last. You'd take seven years of lovely luxury. Yeah, who knows what's down the road, man? Come on, you know, I'll enjoy the good times while they last. You take seven years of lovely luxury. Yeah, who knows what's down the road, man? Come on, let's... Death! Oh yeah, to be fair. Sean, they used to cut their

nipples off. You tell me now. I already said yes. Yeah, the bog bodies have been found. No one knows why with the nipples cut off. Anyway, there you go. Happy Saturday. I've heard it's because the way you greeted an official king was by kissing his nipples.

No, no! Ireland's very cold. They're not going to walk around with their nipples off. No, that's a really common misconception. It's from a story that St. Patrick told. It's a long story to go into, but basically St. Patrick is putting a biblical interpretation. So he writes in a way that other scholars would understand.

His story is allegorical. It's about suckling at the nipples of Irish kings. He didn't need to because he was suckling at the nipples of Jesus or the church or whatever it was. Whoa, hang on. So, yeah, the church. whatever it was. Whoa, hang on. The church. So it's that kind of idea. He's full of Christian goodness so he doesn't have to suck on Irish King's nipples.

That's what that's about. But the good news are the bad news. You don't have to suck anyone's nipples. No one's nipples got sucked in public in the United States. I'm just going to lay that marker down there. No one had their nipples.

I mean, maybe you could start it off, Sean. Yeah, let's make it happen. Sean, you've changed since you went to England. Everyone's doing it, man. Everyone's doing it. All right, to hear you sucking nipples now. Let's back away from the nipples. Let's talk about magical words and cursing as well. I think you mentioned it very early on, the idea of cursing and the magical transformative

power of words to affect real change in the material world, which is very exciting. But how do you curse someone? There's a couple of ways you can do it. You can go to a blacksmith, they will help you curse. The blacksmith's curse was really powerful. You can go to places where there are cursing stones. There are actual places in the Irish landscape where they set up cursing altars and you could go and touch them in an anti-clockwise direction while uttering the curse.

So it's a huge ritual. Gerald of Wales, who here he is again, described Irish saints as having a particularly vindictive cast of mind. And they were very, very good at cursing and they used props. So they used their bells, their hand bells, and what were called their buckles or

croziers. And they used to use them in these spectacular displays of cursing. And there's all these crazy stories where they took their buckle and struck it and killed druids and fell dragons. So there's a total tradition of that. They're basically a magic wand. They could use those.

Nice. Wow. Anti-clockwise on the stone. Anti-clockwise to curse. Clockwise to send good thoughts. But who is going to travel out to one of these places and go, yeah, I love my neighbour. Yeah, sure.

No. And it's proper, like, it's a proper effort. Sending good vibes. Yeah, you've got to really hate your neighbour. You've got to get in a boat, you're going to get out there, you're going to trudge up, and then three times you've got certain words to say, and then you turn them anti-clockwise and bang.

That's a lot to remember. Did you say there was a bell in there as well? So the bishops used to use bells, very, very famous for it. They had little hand bells which they would curse people with. Right, it really adds an extra oomph if you could just ring a bell every time you say... Ding-a-ning-a-ning. used to use bells, very, very famous for it. They had little hand bells, which they would curse people with. Right. It really adds an extra oomph if you could just ring a bell every time you say... Ding-a-ning-a-ning.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They've no special effects, do you know what I mean? It's a big deal back then. It was theatre. It was the type of theatre. It was good. And you mentioned cunning folk earlier who are doing healing good magic.

Yeah. But I suppose in the pre-Christian days, you know, when we've got druids, and we don't know a huge've got druids and we don't know a huge amount about druids we see what what is their role and how do they end up being pushed out yeah they seem to have been from the little we do know about it there's a spell a famous spell which is one of the irish law codes and it does refer to a druid cast in a spell and he stands on one leg it's called a crane position he stares across it where his kind of enemy is and he stands on one leg. It's called a crane position. He stares across at where his kind of enemy is

and he's calling for a curse. Of course he is. It's all we ever seem to do. Anyway, as Christiane Thierry-Huyghton, as the kind of Druid class, retreated, their attributes seemed to have devolved into the poets, a class of poets called Philly, and they could also do magic.

They could do what was called satire. Oh. Yeah, a type was called satire. Oh. Yeah, a type of satire, a poem. I love a bit of political satire, yeah, yeah, yeah. Railing against the king in power, that kind of thing. Yes, but something, there was an added oomph to that kind of satire. Yeah, because this is satire that actually means something, right? So it could actually kill you.

That was the belief. So this is, again again back to the idea of the power of words there was a class of poets a concha and he could he could make a satire with this magical power and it could actually cause like uh pustules to appear on your face again these are you know excuses for things but they could also be really vindictive and it could go down the generations and it could affect everyone in your family down to your dogs. I mean, I don't know about you, Sean,

but I think we're known to be able to carry a bit of a grudge. I think that's just so... Yeah, I think that's fair, yeah. I think that's probably a fair point. Roy Keane has probably cursed a few people now. I would imagine. He satirised a few people over the years. I think he's enormously powerful magically.

But there is still sin in doing some of this cursing magic, right? I mean, I'm trying to get my head around where the rules lie because we know of penitential handbooks, guidebooks for priests on what happens if a parishioner comes in and they've done a magical sin.

So there is still a sense that this is not always okay. It's about power with the early Christian church. They didn't like women doing magic because women often did love magic and magic to try and attempt reproduction. And they didn't like that at all. Now, there's a penitential of Finian, as it's called, which dates from 591. And that does use the term maleficium, which is sorcery to refer to magic. It's a really early use of the phrase.

maleficium which is sorcery to refer to magic it's a really early use of the phrase interestingly when the church appeared in ireland the words for magic exploded so that's what they were talking about they were fixated on magic after they arrived and on controlling it so in the penitential of finian if you do sorcery you do half a year's penance on bread and water. If you use sorcery to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy, and you get an abstention from wine and meat for two years. Now, that sounds a lot, but it's actually not. That's actually quite a small one. So they were very cognizant that women were doing this kind of magic, and they needed to prepare for it.

We've covered a lot of stuff here. I mean, Sean, is there anything that's standing out for you? Nipples, unfortunately, is in my head. Now it's in mine as well. Thanks, Greg. Yeah, the king stuff in particular, I wasn't aware of that. That's quite gruesome. Being an Irish king doesn't really sound all that fun, to be honest, because it only lasts seven years in certain cases.

People are trying to kiss your nipples. You're shagging a horse half the time. You know what? I'm going to take off this crown, I have to say. Oh, no, he's not. Leave it on. Oh, you. The Nuance Window!

All right, well, we've spoken a lot, and it's time now for the nuance window. This is where Sean and I churn our butter for two whole minutes while Dr Jill brings her magic touch to today's story. So, pray silence for the nuance window and take it away, Dr Jill. Right, well, after all of that, I hope I've convinced some of you that magic matters. To my mind, how can we ever really lay claim to uncovering a culture's secrets if we pay no heed to their inner secret lives? In Ireland's case, those were millennia-long conversations

with gods, goddesses and the realm invisible. The land itself was marked by magic. For thousands of years, human sacrifices lay buried in the ancient quiet of Ireland's dank, velvety soil. Those bog bodies ritually killed at the borders of ancient kingdoms so that they could continue to protect them even in the afterlife. And embedded above them in Ireland's physical landscape is a magical geography which everyone knew. The homes of their invisible neighbours, the she, the forts, bushes, trees and the great brew

which they guarded ferociously because the land was shared. These places teemed with invisible life and the fairy folks were just as capricious and unpredictable as the land and weather itself. Life both seen and unseen was always on a knife edge in medieval Ireland and so over centuries people developed the means to manage those relationships, to engage with the land as a goddess, try and mollify her experts emerged whose skills allowed them to intercede with the she to keep the peace and opportunities were found to magically redirect the stress and fear that was a constant companion to many for example if you hated your neighbor and wished to harm them but couldn't what better way to relieve the stress than to take yourself to the place of the cursing stones

and do that. So magic matters, from understanding the types of charms women chanted over sick children to figuring out just how a great saint used magic to enchant a woman into loving a man and on to absorbing how magic was such a standard part of life

that the lawyers put safeguards and punishments in place. From looking at all of this we can tell lots about how and why the society used magic which in turn tells us loads about the nature and balance of power and belief in Ireland, how social change, gender roles and about how human beings understood and charted their responses in times of both crisis and plenty. charted their responses in times of both crisis and plenty. Magic lasted a long time in Ireland until the 20th century anthropological students were still visiting and writing theses on Banshee belief. In 1999, famously, a campaign was run not to disturb a fairy bush in Clare while a road bypass was being built. Have those beliefs now gone? A lot of them, sure, but perhaps not all of them.

And maybe that's not a bad thing. Irish farmers won't interfere with a ferry fort even today. Does that speak to a backwardness? No, of course not. Ireland's a modern, educated country. But in a Western world which has lost its connection with nature and its spirits, we might ponder the value of lingering, powerful guardians of the land who we dare not

interfere with. It seems to me that that's not at all a bad magical belief to hold on to. Thanks. Lovely. Thank you very much. Fab. Thoughts on that, Sean? Irish people have an excuse for everything. Oh, I'm late. Oh, it was the fairies. Yeah, yeah. You just want to watch yourself tonight, Sean, is all I'm saying. You think you hear a fox, man, you just be careful. The bandy she, yeah.

Some of this feels very Norse to me in elements of it and that sort of conversation back and forth between Viking culture and Irish culture, that does feel like there must be a dialogue happening there. So loads of cultures have stuff in common in Norse as well. I mean, the thing about spitting in faces, that's in Jewish culture as well, that's really common. But the Norse, interestingly, had powerful women in it.

They had a form of magic called seder, and that's performed by women. And if men did it, they were felt to be emasculated. And the men did the runic magic. There's no such thing in that. In Ireland, women's magic is largely domestic. It's about charms. It's about healing. It's about protection, but it's also about cursing. Because the most feared thing in the 19th century was a widow's curse.

Yeah, widow's curse. Honestly,'s curse, honestly. They used to take their head coverings off, let their hair all stream out, which was very not proper and they'd scream and scream and scream the curses at landlords generally. But yeah. That sounds very modern actually.

I say try it. Let's all try it. Yeah, let's get back to it. So what do you know now? All right. Well, it's time now for the So What Do You Know Now? This is our quickfire quiz for King Sean to see how much he has learned. Sean, are you good with exams?

Are you kind of a natural scholar? I'm a comedian, Greg. So no. I did okay. I did okay. We talked about a lot of stuff here and I can't remember quite a lot of it myself. So we'll see how well you do. Thanks for the words of encouragement, Greg.

That's okay. But we've got ten questions for you. Question one. In Irish medieval magic, words of power had three main uses. Name two of them. Protection and healing. Very good. He's off.

Question two. In which century did Ireland convert to Christianity? Fifth century. Yay! Question three. In which direction would someone rotate a cursing stone to curse their enemy? Clockwise?

No! Oh, God, I cursed the wrong person. Question four. Most medieval Irish myths are grouped into cycles. Can you name one of them? Venian cycle? Yeah, very good, well done. You have a king cycle, mythological, and ulcer cycle as well.

You're doing really well. Question five. What type of fairy told people their loved ones would soon die? And they screamed it in their face. I believe that's a banshee, Greg. It is a banshee. Or they tapped on the window as well. Is that right? They do tap on the window.

A very polite banshee. Yes. Oh, sorry, just to let you know. My family has a banshee that taps on the window. You get that, Claire? We're doing a quiz, Jill, not now. Question six. According to Gerald of Wales,

how should an Irish king consolidate power after marrying and killing a white mare? Cut it up, make a soup, and then bathe in the soup. Very good, well done. Standard. I'm not going to forget that for a long time. Me too. Question seven. According to one theory,

ancient Irish kings were possibly sacrificed after how many years in power? Seven years. Seven years. Nice. Question eight. You're doing well, actually. Question eight. According to the medieval Irish penitentials, what did a woman have to abstain from for two years if she used magic to rid herself of an unwanted pregnancy?

It was two years without wine, I think. Yeah, it was. Yeah, absolutely. Well done. What a punishment. Wine and meat. The worst. Wine o'clock is banned.

Question nine. An amulet of mistletoe and mountain ash could help protect your animals from being shot by elves, but which animals would it protect? Cattle. It was cattle. Very good. This is for nine out of ten, which would be a very strong score.

Here we go, here we go. Question ten. Name one way to protect your children from the evil eye. Spitting their face. Absolutely. Absolutely. A room full of people cheering for spitting in a child's face. What do we want?

Spit in their face! When do we want it? Now! Yeah. Oh, God. We're going to get cancelled. Well, I mean, you did really well. Nine out of ten.

Fantastic score. Really strong. Great. Excellent. Right. Okay. I think we're done with our episode. So, an enormous. Great. Excellent. Right, okay, I think we're done with our episode, so an enormous

thank you to Sean, thank you to Jill, and listener, if you want more medieval myths and stories, check out our episode on Old Norse Sagas, because actually,

maybe they're slightly interacting with... Yeah, yeah, you get Irish characters in Norse sagas. Yeah, there we go then, so it's a revision homework, it's the same story

from a different perspective. And remember, if you enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review, share the show with your friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds so you never miss an episode. Just time for me to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner, our very own medieval wizard, Dr Gillian Kelly.

Thank you, Jill. Thank you. And in Comedy Corner, we had the Nipple King himself. You don't want to take that? Thanks, Greg. The sensational Sean Burke. Thank you, Sean. And of course, we have the wonderful audience here at the Hay Festival. Give yourselves a round of applause. Thank you very much. And a general piece of housekeeping.

This is the end of Series 6, so thank you so much for listening. We will be back with a new series later in the year, maybe 2024, but we will be back, we promise, with more fun history stuff. In the meantime, go and revise our back catalogue, there will be an exam. We will come to all of your houses, there will be ten questions, but for now, I'm off to go

and spit in a child's face! Bye! You're Dead to Me was a production by The Athletic for BBC Radio 4. Thank you. So was Steve Hankey. Hi, I'm Ryland, and I'm here to talk about men. Because in recent years, we have all seen the man in Britain undergo radical change as the rule book has been well and truly ripped apart so i'm going to talk to a range of prominent figures and celebs who have each got their own diverse and contrasting takes on what it means to be a man today i want to prize open the fault lines of modern masculinity and get to grips with the changing landscape and try to get some answers so that we can pass them on to the next generation.

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