You're Dead to Me - Nell Gwyn

Episode Date: September 10, 2021

One of the original comedic rags to riches stories, Nell Gwyn. We're travelling back to 17th century England to delve into a celebrity of the Restoration era, one of the first actresses in comedy and a mistress to King Charles II all rolled into one! Nell Gwyn's life is as eventful and comedic as her turns on the stage, and Greg Jenner and his guests have a lot of fun unpicking this incredible life story where politics meets the stage, and there is only one (or maybe several?) winner/sGreg is joined by associate professor and writer of 'Prologues and Epilogues of Restoration Theatre: Gender and Comedy, Performance and Print', Diana Solomon, and flanked by Jess Knappett, comedian, actress, writer and producer, who you'll know from her hit sitcom Drifters as well as appearances on 8 out of 10 Cats, Inbetweeners and Taskmaster. Produced by Cornelius Mendez Script by Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner Research by William ClaytonThe Athletic production for BBC Radio 4

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, a BBC Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I am a public historian, author and broadcaster. I'm the chief nerd on the funny kids show Horrible Histories. I am a public historian, author and broadcaster, and the chief nerd on the funny kids show Horrible Histories.

And today we are packing our theatre programmes and interval snacks to travel all the way back to the 17th century, to England, to learn all about the actress, queen of comedy and mistress to King Charles II, it's Nell Gwynne. And to do that, I'm joined by two very special guests. In History Corner, she's an associate professor at Simon Fraser University in Canada and is an expert on theatre, print culture and best of all, the careers of funny women in the 17th century. Her latest book is on disruptive comedy in the Restoration. It's Professor Diana

Solomon. Welcome, Diana. Thank you so much for having me. And in Comedy Corner, we are joined very handily by a comedian, actress, writer and producer. You'll know her from loads of stuff, including her hilarious sitcom Drifters, which she wrote, produced and starred in, as well as the Inbetweeners movie, 8 Out of 10 Cats, Drunk History and an unforgettable turn on Taskmaster and sitcom Ghosts, one of the best out there. It's the brilliant Jessica Knappett. Or is it Jess Knappett? Well, I answer to both, really. Let's just go with Jess because it's quicker. All right. Welcome to the show, Jess Knappett. Thank you. It's such a pleasure to be here. I love this podcast.

Do you like history? Did you enjoy history at school? Yes, I love history. Not to say that I'm particularly knowledgeable about it, but I like to get my bearings when I'm in a place. I've just moved to a new town and I really wanted to know what was going on here. So I sort of delved into it. Neolithic markings on the rocks in the moor sort of went up there and then I researched it, put it into Google. Of course, nobody knows because it was too long ago. So I like it when there's evidence and facts and stories. So that's why it'll be good to talk to Diana because she'll know for sure.

There's quite a lot we don't know, but there's some things we know, aren't there, Diana? Just a few. And have you heard of Nell Gwynn, Jess? Yeah, I mean, there's some quite negative associations with Nell Gwynn, I feel. I did think, oh, Nell Gwynn, bawdy romp of an actress. And that's why you thought we'll get Nappit on, I get it. You thought we'll get the modern day nelgwyn on that's what we'll do so what do you know this is where i have a go at guessing what listeners at home might know about today's

subject and you may know that life of nelgwyn is one of the greatest of the Rags to Riches stories, or in this case, Poor Putter Pal-Mal. Maybe you've heard that Nell Gwynn started her theatrical career selling fruit in playhouses before becoming an acting sensation and then catching the eye of King Charlie II. Nell Gwynn pops up a fair bit in pop culture. Most recently, you may have caught Gugu Mbatha-Raw and Gemma Arterton starring in Jessica Swale's award-winning play Nell Gwynn in the West End, which is soon to be a movie starring Emma Mackey.

But how did a working class lass become the beloved toast of London and the apple of the merry monarch's eye? And is there more to her than just being a cheeky charmer? Let's find out, shall we? Professor Diana, Nell Gwynn, probably born around 1650, bang in the middle of a completely chaotic century. Can you give Jess and our listeners a super speedy summary of the context of the middle of that century, the49, there was a short-lived republic in the British Isles where there was no monarch, the Puritans were in charge, and Oliver Cromwell ruled as Lord Protector. By 1660, however, Charles II returned from exile in Europe and recovered the throne. This is generally thought of as quite a celebratory time, but the restoration did not, in fact, restore stability to the realm. Religious tensions, the chronic financial difficulties of the crown,

and a series of unsuccessful wars created huge problems for Charles II. However, Charles did bring back lots of enjoyable elements that the Puritans had gotten rid of, including the theatre. So Nell Gwynne is born into this political maelstrom in about 1650, give or take. What do we know of her childhood? It's slim pickings. Different sources claim that she was born in London, Oxford or Hereford. Those aren't the same places. No, definitely not. We know that she had a mother named Helena and a sister named Rose, but we don't know much else. However, the diarist Samuel Pepys says that she told him that she was brought up in a whorehouse serving alcohol to the guests.

We can be sure she came from a very poor family and we're quite sure she got a job selling oranges at the theatre in her very early teens or perhaps even younger. She's basically a doctor then. I mean, selling oranges, that's your latter day Barocca hander-outer. Jess, have you ever done a job that's a bit selling oranges to the public? I was a promo girl. So that meant that you had to sort of stand in the street and hand out flyers on behalf of dreadful corporations, really, for many years. So yeah, I guess I can relate. We've mentioned Charles II and bringing back theatre.

The major innovation, of course, is actresses. Women are suddenly allowed onto the stage. This is a major revolution, right? Yes, England was quite behind other European countries in letting women perform on the public stage. Although Charles II's own mother loved acting and performed herself in court masks. The big change happened in 1660. And we don't know the name of the first English actress. There's been plenty of speculations. However, we do know the part that

she played. She actually played Desdemona in a production of Othello on December 8th, 1660. Beginning the trend, of course, of killing off the female lead. There you go. It's all right as long as she dies. And how does Nell Gwynn go from selling oranges in the aisle to getting onto centre stage? I mean, is it drama school? Is it open casting? Is it Restoration Britain's Got Talent? Sir Thomas Killigrew was one of two people who was granted the right to mount productions after the Restoration. He found the King's Company, which performed at the Bridges Street Theatre.

So Gwyn started out selling oranges in the theatre around the year 1663, before taking bit parts in plays a year later, possibly championed by the star actor Charles Hart. Some have also speculated that she was taught to dance by another famous comedian. All this is to say that we can't exactly pinpoint her debut, but she was certainly on stage in credited roles by the age of about 13 or so in 1664. So she's a child star? Well, many women, girls at the time were child stars. It started very young for actresses in the Restoration.

So she's taught to dance possibly by a chap called John Lacey. And then Charles Hart is the star who perhaps takes interest in her. It's really hard to say. And I think that we tend to embrace this narrative of the older man showing the woman the robes, teaching her how to act or how to dance when that may not have been the case. I worry that it takes some agency away from the woman and her achievements in her own right. All I can say is it's really hard to say. We're definitely not sure. But we do know that 1667 was a big year for Nelquin. She played two key roles in plays that we believe premiered that year. One role was the part of Myrda in James Howard's play All Mistaken or the Mad Couple. Myrda was the love interest to Philidor, played by her probably real-life lover Charles Hart, and Samuel Pepys felt that she

outshone her more experienced co-star. He wrote, Nell and Hart's mad parts are most excellently done, but especially hers. The other role that she is perhaps best known for was that of Floramel in John Dryden's play Secret Love or The Maiden Queen. Dryden wrote the part of Floramel especially for Gwynn, and his description of Floramel in the play exactly matches the depiction of Nell in later portraits. So Flora Mell is described as having such an oval face, clear skin, hazel eyes, thick brown eyebrows and hair, a turned up nose, full nether lip and out mouth, the bottom of your cheeks a little blub, and two dimples when you smile. The play was an enormous success,

and Gwyn became a leading lady of the King's Company at that point. Wow. She's a star. She's 1667. So this role is Florimel. The play is called The Secret Love or The Maiden Queen. Could they not decide which one? Or is that the entire name? The Maiden Queen. Could they not decide which one or is that the entire name? So most of the plays in the Restoration did have these subtitles as well. And sometimes the two parts of a title might even refer to two different plots. So Secret Love or The Maiden Queen is actually what's known as a split plot play,

where there was a comic plot and a serious plot. Hard to say split plot play. Split plot play where there was a comic plot and a serious plot. Hard to say split plot play. Split plot play. Tongue twister. So, Soflorimel is a great role. In the 1600s, it was expected that if you got a role, you would have it for life. Like whenever they brought the play back, they relaunched it

or they did another tour of it, you would get that role back. What a nightmare. What an absolute nightmare. Absolutely. It's crazy, actually, because we have people playing the part of Hamlet who are in their 60s because they've played it forever. That's fascinating to me. There must be some very angry boys in the wings waiting for hamlet to die give me a chance surely there should be some murder plots based on this jealousy

i've actually been in a restoration play it's actually a bit of a nightmare getting an audition for a play because then you have to read the whole play it was only a few scenes so i just read the bits i was in and then I got it but then I looked at the play and I was like I'm only in that little bit and I had to do like a three-month run or something. It was honestly quite tedious doing the same thing over and over again and only to having a little part but to me that the joy of being an actress is that you get to do different things every day. Can you say no if you don't want to do it? I guess you can. Can you? Can you retire the part?

The idea is that you wanted to be in demand. So you wanted to keep that part. But Jess, if I can interject, you actually would have enjoyed acting in the restoration then because the actors, they didn't have an entire copy of the script. They just had their own parts. So you wouldn't have had to rebuild. Well, that's the thing, isn't it? That's what most actresses do. They're just like, oh, boring, boring, boring, my bit. Boring, boring, boring, boring, my bit.

What are the skills required for an actress in comedy in the mid 1600s? Nell Gwynn is illiterate, we think, right? So I guess good memory for a start? Definitely good memory is very helpful. We think maybe she was semi-literate. She seems to have been able to write her initials or possibly her name. We don't actually know about her reading skills. She had many, many talents that allowed her to just capture the love of the audience. So one of the roles that she excelled at was playing one half of a witty couple. So she would play in the Restorations version of Shakespeare's Beatrice and Benedict. But in these Restoration couplings, the women was actually given a bit more power in

the relationship. So Gwyn and Charles Hart made an excellent pairing where they exchanged witty banter. They starred as versions of this witty couple in at least eight different plays, and many of these plays were revived. So they were very, very popular. That just, to me, it sounds like she's playing off the audience a little bit. And the fact that she's illiterate, I wonder if she was a bit of an improviser. It's very hard as a theater historian to know exactly what went on on the stage. And so something like improvisation is one of those big questions that we don't know how much of it happened. So another aspect of restoration taste and comedy

that Gwyn excelled at was the so called britches role, where actresses playing female characters cross dressed for part of the play as a young man, and they wore the britches. Ironically, they looked more feminine because they were showing off their ankles and calves. Also, restoration plays typically began with a dramatic prologue and ended with an epilogue. And these were short, usually poetic speeches, often allotted to comic actors. And so Gwyn naturally delivered several of these comic prologues and epilogues, including a very famous epilogue to Dryden's tragedy, Tyrannic Love. Gwyn's character dies, but then to deliver the epilogue, she suddenly sits up and comes back to life.

And she sits up and turns to the pallbearer and says, hold, are you mad? You damn confounded dog. I am to rise and speak the epilogue. And so it set off this trend for these revived epilogue where the actress would wake up from the dead. It's like in Titanic, then, when Kate Winslet's character is revealed to be the old lady at the end. I mean, less comedic in Titanic, but I can see how that would be funny. Although people in the restoration had very strong feelings about whether tragedy should end with this comic epilogue. So Addison and Steele and the spec kicker had this debate about, is the play still going on when the

epilogue arrives? And one of the people makes a point of leaving the theatre so that he does not have to witness this epilogue. So it's like the credits rolling in a film. That's right. There was a question over whether or not it was still going. It's a breaking of the fourth wall. It's Fleabag. It's Fleabag. That's what it is. it's fleabag that's what it is it's there you go

and you mentioned the britches part diana so samuel peeps is a huge fan of nell gwynn and particularly he says there is a comical part done by nell which is florimell that i never can hope ever to see the like done again by man or woman so great a performance of a comical part both as a mad girl and then most and best of all when she comes in as a young gallant so as a young man so peeps is he's absolutely blown away by her charm her wit obviously we know peeps fancies her because he's a bit of a sleaze but that's a pretty good review isn't it so she's not just a bit of fluff you know she's good it's true i mean peeps is prone to hyperbole there are a of absolute, this was the best fish that I ever ate

or, you know, that kind of thing. So we do have to take Peeps with a grain of salt. But it sounds pretty cool though, that she was having this great role as a woman and then basically went off and put her britches on and came back in as a gallant. It's much funnier when a woman does some sort of impersonation of a male character.

One quarter of all restoration plays featured a Britch's part. They loved it. And also, presumably, there's some songs. I mean, we know that Nell can dance. She can sing. She's a triple threat. All of this makes it sound like she's a star. She's a hit.

She's making good money. Everyone loves her. But the conditions at the time for actresses, they're not good. So we don't have much in the way of salary records from the early restoration, but we do know that some male actors had an opportunity that female actors didn't have, which was that they could hold shares in the acting company. They also had to contribute to the company, but nevertheless, this was a big financial advantage. We do know that both actors and actresses received liveries, and these were elaborate scarlet cloaks with crimson capes, typically worn on state occasions.

So for example, in June 1666, Gwyn and several other actors employed by the King's Company were granted four yards of bastard scarlet cloth and one quarter of a yard of velvet for their liveries. So there were some advantages. Why do we not get cloaks still? I'd love a cloak. Is that what you're looking for now? Whenever you do a gig, you're like, OK, I'm happy to do the show. I will learn the script. I will show up on time. But I want a bastard cloth cloak. Seriously, guys, you don't even have to pay me. Just pay me a bastard cloak. The other thing we should mention, Diana, is that actresses were highly sexualized, often against their will, of course. Their dressing rooms were open to the public, right?

Men could just breeze in and go and see the famous actress they'd spent two hours ogling. We know Samuel Pepys did that. So Nell Gwynn would have had to contend with people just barging in and going, right, I want to watch you undress. It was standard. And not only that, but the people didn't have to wait for the play to be over. They could actually wander in during the play. Do you know what? You can keep your cloak. I didn't realise they could wander backstage midway through the performance.

Surely that's a health and safety problem. You might be tripping over ropes and sandbags falling out of the ceiling and stuff. Absolutely. Is that just female actors or is that any actor? Theoretically, they could visit any actor. We do have a lot of reports of men visiting female actors backstage. For example, Samuel Pepys writes about how he goes backstage with his wife. He sees Gwyn undressing and both he and his wife kiss her at a certain point peeps is watching the

play he's turned to his wife and he said do you want to go backstage after and watch her undress and uh give her a kiss she's gone no Samuel while we're doing it but it tells us a lot about the paradoxical status of a famous actress on the stage. On the one hand, she's renowned, she's known, perhaps becoming rich. And yet at the same time, people feel that they can just access her whenever they want. They can just wander in and say, I want to look at you. I want to kiss you. So we have Pervy Peepsy already telling us about kissing Nell, but he also had this image of her. Jess, this is Nell Gwynn depicted as Venus do you want to describe what you can see for us? Well I can see a completely nude Nell Gwynn she has angel wings and she's holding an arrow and her forearm is just covering her vulva And she's got ringlets.

And yeah, I suppose by restoration standards, that's basically a sort of glamour model shot really, isn't it? Yeah. Do you want to know where Samuel Pepys kept this? Oh, the dirty little Pepys probably kept it under his pillow, didn't he? He put it on his wall at work. It's the equivalent of a page three girl. It's a topless calendar on a mechanic's wall yeah he works at the admiralty so he's got a very senior job working for the king and then this ultimately will be the king's girlfriend

and he's got a nude photo of her up on the wall it's it's quite odd well people are still doing it greg they're still doing it now so diana this tells us something about nel gwynn's image doesn't she's famous enough to be acquired as a print there are multiple images being distributed of her do we think she poses for this or is this done without her permission do we know there were many many nudes of women where their creators said that they were nelgwyn like they probably weren't but in other words they were trading on the currency of her name. We know that Nell Gwynne definitely posed for a Peter Lilly portrait, a nude one for the king. The other problem Nell had to contend with in 1665, there was a bit of a minor crisis when it came to the theatre. Jess, do you know what happens in 1665?

It's either the plague or the fire. You're spot on. It's plague and then fire. It's a double whammy. And so the theatre is closed down, which obviously affects her income. Presumably there's a couple of years where she can't work. Gwyn's in lockdown. Doing online Zoom comedy stuff. Gwyn started a podcast. It's a great podcast, but unfortunately at the end of it, everyone comes into her room and watches her get undressed.

her room and watches her get undressed. So 1667 is her big breakout year and Secret Love is the great play that she's in, written for her, as you say, Diana. And if Jess and I were to jump in a time machine and try and go and see that play, what's the theatre going to be like? Are we sitting down? What's it smell like? What's it sound like? What's it like for Nell to perform to that crowd? Is it a friendly crowd? Is it a raucous crowd? Are they shouting? Are they drunk? What's the vibe? The theatre in the Restoration was quite different from what we expect when we go to the theatre today. We expect, for example, the lights to go down. That was not the case in the Restoration Theatre. The entire auditorium was lit. It was still quite segregated with different sections of the theater designated

for different people. So the aristocrats would sit in the boxes. Footmen, for example, were only admitted to the upper gallery after Act IV. They don't get to see the whole play. Well, there was actually a lot of people who paid what they called after money, where they got to enter the theater after act three of the play. Some people would pay to see acts four, act five, the epilogue and any other entertainment that happened after that. You don't have to watch the whole thing. Just get to the end. Oh my God, that's brilliant. All the footmen outside just being like, oh, what was your favorite bit? The end. Well, yeah, The End. I like The End as well.

People showing off that they've seen a whole play from beginning to end. That's right. And then, of course, the theaters were totally raucous places. We also know that orange shelling was taking place during the play rather than just at intermission. Audiences, some of them would come clearly not to see the play, but to chat with their friends, to show off their new clothing. I can't imagine how big these performances must have had to have

been on stage to cut through. Someone selling oranges. It must be like doing jongleurs on a Friday night and you've got all this sort of stag and hen parties in and you're just having to just yell all your jokes. Well, exactly. Is she having to react to the audience? Because the theatre could seat up to 700 people, which was actually much more intimate than later on in the 18th century when we get into the thousands, there was the idea that you could be more of a subtle performer in the Restoration. The actor Thomas Betterton was said to be able to act with his eyes versus in the late 18th century. Yeah, so that does imply a level of subtlety.

Yeah, you could interpret that any way though, can't you? That could just be a lot of winking. It's true. It's true. It's not surprising that there is so much addressing of the audience from what i remember there's lots of asides and things aren't there also the purpose of the prologue and epilogue was to directly address the audience and to say in some kind of words please like our play and come back tomorrow night and bring all of your best friends. Like and subscribe. Yeah.

Keep supporting live comedy. Yes, exactly. So the authors of the new plays didn't actually get paid until the third night of performance. And there were plenty of plays that did not make it to the third night. So one of the things that the author wants to do is to say yes come back especially on the third night bring everyone you know so i can get the biggest paycheck as possible i want my bastard clout so nel gwyn is having to act over a pretty raucous noisy hectoring crowd maybe but she's clearly good at it she's clearly funny and people love her another person who seems to be into her is the earl of dorset so she perhaps has had a relationship with Charles Hart, but then she

seems to have an affair with the Earl of Dorset. An Earl is one of the most powerful men in the country. And then she goes one better than an Earl and she goes all the way up the ladder to the top dog, Mr. Charles II, King of England. So how does that adorable meet cute happen? Does he slide into her Twitter DMs? Does he barge in backstage and try and kiss her like Samuel Pepys? Do we know how they meet? Rumours are swirling about their romance from about mid 1668. We don't know how they met and we're not sure exactly when she became his mistress. But what we do know is that by late 1669, she was definitely pregnant with his child. And she gave birth in May of 1670 to his illegitimate son. She returned to the stage after that for a few months. But by February of 1671, she had retired from the stage. And at that point, she was approximately 20 years old.

She was never quite the queen of the stage that we tend to think of her these days, but it's the securing of the king's heart that really cements her in history. Yeah, so the son is called Charles Beauclerc. But there is a brief moment where she comes back to the stage after having had the child, and now the public gets a stare at her. That must have been so intriguing, or, you know, the gossip and the rumour. This is the king's girlfriend on stage, and we can see her. We can go backstage and kiss her. I can't even think of a modern parallel. But I guess if Meghan Markle had gone back to acting after getting married, it's a really extraordinary moment, isn't it, Diana? Absolutely. And John Dryden certainly takes advantage of this because when she goes back

in December of 1670, she acts in his play, The Conquest of Granada. This play was performed seven months after she gave birth. And the epilogue asked the audience on Dryden's behalf to think him not duller for this year's delay. He was prepared. The women were away. And men without their parts can hardly play. For at both houses, t'was a sickly year. And pity us, your servants, to whose cost in one such sickness nine whole months are lost. So here he's definitely playing up the royal pregnancy. Offstage, similarly, she created quite a stir. Many

satires capitalized on this moment. So one of the satires castigates King Charles for bankrolling his dunghill wench rather than preparing for the third Anglo-Dutch war, while another one facetiously suggests that Parliament should vote to give Gwyn's new baby a diaper. So yes, there are lots of responses both inside and outside of the theatre to this new illegitimate baby. Can you imagine Instagram back then? The baby bumps. Yeah, it's seriously hot celeb goss, isn't it? The obvious thing really, Diana, is that she now commits to being the royal mistress. She moves

into a rented house, which backs onto St. James's Palace, which is rather handy, within 100 metres of the king. Wave to daddy and they have a second child on on christmas day in 1671 they managed to keep the flames of passion alive we've already seen one naughty nude painting of now but charles has got his own personal nude that he keeps and he hides it do you want to know where he hides it, Jess? Do you want to guess? On his wall at work. It is on his wall, but he doesn't let other people see it. So what do you think he puts in front of it?

A mirror. Good guess. It's a classy landscape painting. So he's like, oh yeah, that's just a bit of countryside. And behind it, his lovely lady. It's the 17th century equivalent of clearing your history. lovely lady. It's the 17th century equivalent of clearing your history. Nell Gwynne is retired from the stage at 20. She's now the king's mistress. She's given him two children. And she's now, I suppose, spending time at the royal court. On the one hand, it's a place of partying and licentiousness and raucousness because King Charles II, he's a party animal. And on the other hand, it's a place of power and privilege and posh people trying to get ahead and very sharp elbows.

So how does Nell Gwynn, semi-illiterate, possibly working class, no real education, how does she fit into this slightly strange world? Nell Gwynn survived and thrived at court because she both embraced her lowly birth and didn't let anyone shame her for it. So for example, when her mother died in 1679, Gwen was met with a crowing of contemporary satirists. But instead of shying away, it is said that she organized a splendid extravagant funeral for her mother, riding in an elaborate coach with her sister Rose from Covent Garden to St. Martin's in the Fields, where her mother was to be interred. So she didn't hide who she was, but she also adapted her behavior to suit the lifestyle expected of her new status. I feel like she might not have liked her mum very much, because that sounds like she was really making, it was a really quite a big party that she went for there

she was celebrating it sounds like she was like this is on the king's dime don't worry about it guys i've got this we're gonna have a good night any excuse for a party right i mean we don't know much about her dad at all i mean the stories are that her dad might have been a soldier in the civil war who had fallen on hard times and have been in jail but we don't know but it's interesting i suppose that nel gwynne embraces her rags to riches story she doesn't try and do the big makeover she's saying no this is who i am but i've got money now and here is my money enjoy it so who's charles ii's wife the queen is catherine de braganza she must be absolutely livid at this point what do we know about about her? What's her take on this? She seems to have been barren.

The issue of who's going to succeed to the throne after Charles is a big issue. There are plenty of illegitimate children, but there are no legitimate children. The job of a queen is to give an heir and she perhaps has medical condition. We don't know, but that doesn't happen. But Charles has got a huge number of mistresses. Have they all got a nude portrait behind us? The job of a queen is to give an heir, and she perhaps has medical condition. We don't know, but that doesn't happen. But Charles has got a huge number of mistresses. Have they all got a nude portrait behind his landscapes? So every single painting. Probably a few of them, yeah.

He's got sort of an entire calendar. What's quite interesting, you mentioned satirists there, Diana. This is a time in history where satire exists. And Gwyn's quite complicated because in some ways she doesn't play politics. Some people said that she was a bit of a risk to national security because she was getting too close to the king others said no this is a poem it's quite rude poem actually so hard by palmao lives a wench called nell king charles the second he kept her she hath got a trick to handle his prick but never lays hands on his scepter. So what they're saying basically is like she can play with his body, but she doesn't get to play politics. To a certain extent, some people are

like, yeah, you know what, it's fine. She's not really sort of pushing her weight around, but she does have some enemies at court. There are a couple of haters who really don't enjoy her. Do you want to tell us about them? Absolutely. Gwyn's rise from poverty to the highest tier of polite society was greeted with hostility and disdain in some circles. Gwyn, however, responded to such personal attacks with the quick wit and sharp tongue comedy she was known and loved for. For example, what she advertised the fact that she was very close to Charles II, but stayed out of political matters. And she called herself a sleeping partner in the ship of state, playing down her political influence while still... Punning. Just punning, left, right and centre, isn't she? I mean, that's perfect, isn't it?

There's a sort of wink there, isn't there? There's a bit of cheeky charm in that. So there are some haters at court. There are some people who are a little bit jealous. There is also, of course, rival mistresses. So there are some haters at court. There are some people who are a little bit jealous. There is also, of course, rival mistresses. Another is Mole Davis, who's an actress. According to one story, and I don't know how legit this is, apparently Nell finds a way to sabotage Mole having a fun saucy night with the king. Do you want to guess what the sabotage is? Does she show Mole where all the secret drawings of her are that's good reveal

all the other women uh no she doesn't do that she puts something in her food does she give her food poisoning she gives her a laxative so does she we don't know if it's true according to her story she basically gives her the shits and so mole sort of runs off to the loo and the king is like oh i haven't got anyone to sleep with tonight i better sleep with nell going instead it's bittersweet isn't it that's how you've got your man because his preference had the shits gwyn has the kind of big personality that so many stories have attached themselves to her. And while 99% of them are not true, it just speaks to what a personality she had. There's also another rival that we should mention, and this is the king's French lover called Louise de Keroual. Nell and Louise,

they do have quite a serious rivalry. It gets a bit bitter. Nell and Louise, they do have quite a serious rivalry. It gets a bit bitter. So in the 1670s, Louise possessed an unfortunate trifecta of attributes, which made her unpopular. She was an extravagant spender. She was Catholic and she was French. So those three put together in one mistress was not good. And so her behaviour at court also aroused much amusement. She very much played the role of the delicate French flower and became notorious for her tendency to cry at the slightest provocation. So Gwynne gave Caruil the unfortunate nickname of the Weeping Willow. The idea that Louise is Catholic and French is a national security thing as well, isn't it? This is potentially a risk. So actually,

it's not just that people don't like her. It's that she could be a dangerous element in the king's bed. So that's a proper rivalry that turns into something a bit bigger than just a bit of celebrity gossip. It's a bit of a mean girls vibe going on at court there, isn't it? Jess, have you got any comedy nemesis, any rivals in the comedy world that you enjoy launching into a heated gossip exchange with? You can't lull me into talking about my rivals on here, Greg. But, yeah, I relate.

I relate. If there was someone trying to steal my man, then, well, I might slip a laxative. I'm much too cowardly to have any nemesis or rivalry, but I do get confused quite a lot for Greg James on Radio 1. And people say I look like Joe Wicks a lot, even though he's a much more handsome and athletic man. At least it's not an insulting mix up. It's nice to be a very talented broadcaster, very handsome athletic man. At least it's not an insulting mix-up. It's nice to be a very talented broadcaster, a very handsome athletic man. The problem is I look neither handsome nor talented.

It's not you, is it? It's not you. I'm not as good as either of them. By the 1680s then, things are getting a little bit tense at court because Charles hasn't had a legitimate heir. And so there is now a question of like, well, who's going to take over? We've had a civil war in the 1640s. This is very scary. The problem is the king's brother is Catholic. James, Duke of York, is a Catholic and England's meant to be Protestant. Nell Gwynne is

on Team Protestant and she's supporting the Duke of Monmouth, who's one of the king's illegitimate children. And then I suppose Louise de Carouel is on Team Catholic. Is it fair to say, Diana, at this point, Nell does get sucked into a political question? She does. So she was closely allied to supporters of the Protestant cause, like the Duke of Monmouth, who she tried to get to reconcile with the King in 1679, as well as the Duke of Buckingham. But Louise de Carolle, on the other hand, was for a time associated with the rival politician Lord Danby. And in 1679, she supported the Catholic James Duke of York to succeed to the throne. So as such, the rivalry between mistresses then took on a political edge and they even used theatre to continue the culture war on the stage.

use theatre to continue the culture war on the stage. There is some extremely cruel satire about Louise. It's misogynistic and sexist and ableist, but they say some really horrible stuff about her. Nell gets away with it. I think it's fair to say, Diana, at worst, Nell is often shamed for her sexuality and for her nudity, perhaps, in the satire. People have called her raised up from a dung heap. They have used the word whore, which is obviously intended to be cruel at the time. But she doesn't get the abuse that Louise gets. There's a very famous story about Gwynne. And like so much with Gwynne, this story may or may not be true. But there's a very famous story where Gwynne was riding in her coach.

The coach was supposedly attacked by a mob in Oxford and they mistook her for Louise. But Gwyn apparently put her head out of the window and proclaims, pray good people be silent. I am the Protestant whore. So apparently that led the mob to back off and say, oh yes, we'll leave you alone now now that we know that i what so they must have been shouting at her catholic whore catholic whore catholic whore and she was like guys it's protestant whore get it right in that sense we see there that's her diffusing the situation but also still putting the blame on louise right absolutely nel gwynn is quick she's funny she's witty,

but she's quite savvy. But that's the comedian in her, isn't it? It's like absorbing all of the things that you're worried that people are going to say about you. You say them first, and then they won't be said about you. That's obviously the skill that the weeping willow doesn't have. That's right. Yeah, and there's also a satire in 1682

called A Dialogue Between the Duchess of Portsmouth and Madame Gwynne, in which Nell Gwynne says to Louise, In my clear veins, best British blood does flow, whilst thou, like a French toadstool, first did grow. The press are on her side. They're making Nell to be the mean girl, as you say, Jess. Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it, that they're using these two women in the public eye to politicise these sides of Catholicism and Protestantism. The only comparison I can think of is Blur v Oasis in the 90s. You know, working class and then posh boys, and it was sort of that politicised thing.

And I guess it sounds like Nell Gwynn was really well loved, so I suppose she was used as a bit of a political football in that sense. Political netball, if you will. So there are lots of mistresses in Charles's life. We've got Moldavis, Barbavillas. If you know the Horrible History song, there's Hortens Mancini. But we're quite fond of saying that Nell Gwynn is his favourite. Is that true?

Or is that a bit of romance? It's really hard to say. We love her the best. We think that she was at or near the top, but he favoured many mistresses and she never became Queen of the Mistresses. She never received a title, unlike some of his other mistresses. But unlike some of the others, Gwyn remained close to Charles until his death in February 1685. Bishop Burnett reported that Charles II's last words were,

let not poor Nellie starve. Again, this may not be true, but James II did continue to support Gwyn after Charles' death. Let her not starve isn't exactly give her loads of stuff. That's true. Please ensure the mother of my children doesn't die of malnutrition. But yes, I suppose it's a medium, isn't it? It's a phrase. In terms of the children, there are two children, of course. They are not given titles initially,

and Nell finds quite an interesting way around this. According to the stories, one of the things she does is in front of the king she says come here you little bastard when one of the children runs past and charles is like don't call him that and she says well you haven't given him a proper name so why shouldn't i and he's like oh fine i'll give him a title so she forces charles to give her sons proper titles and they become really, really important men. You know, one of the men's up as the Duke of St. Albans. But Nell doesn't get anything herself, whereas all the other mistresses do. Really? They all got something and she just got a sandwich?

She got some money, I think. A nice, comfortable apartment, a bit of money. And she got to live out her days in comfort. Is that fair? Definitely, yes. She definitely lived a life of comfort. Where did she live? Do we know? Yeah, she was in Pall Mall, I think. Again, there are apocryphal stories on there, Diana, of her spending a thousand pounds on a lavish bed that she decorates with her rival mistress's faces as a sort of in-joke. Again, we don't think this is true. Very Carrie Simmons, isn't it? So let's talk about the end of her life then. Do we know how she meets her end?

She doesn't live much beyond Charles. She dies in 1687. She would have been the age of just 36 or 37. We don't know what she died of. We do know that Charles II had a venereal disease and infected Louise at the very least. But true to her popular reputation for generosity, Nell left lots of money in her will to charity. She left £100 to the debtors of the parish of St. Martin, £20 a year to release debtors from prison every Christmas day, and even £50 for poor Catholics for showing my charity to those who differ from me in religion. And she left some money for her sister, Rose, as well.

So she's taking care of the family. She was also apparently keen encouraging King Charles to build Chelsea Hospital in 1682 for military pensioners to go and recuperate if they've been injured in war. So she seems to have heart of gold and she's funny and she's beautiful and people love her so what do you reckon jess you're a fan girl are you uh are you on team nell or have you heard some stuff that's changed your mind if anything i'm more of a fan than when i knew vaguely things about her that i'd read on a wikipedia page now i'm yeah i mean obsessed excellent oh that's great a convert you've done your work diana to the restoration yay the nuance window

this is where jess and i take a little break and we give two minutes to our expert professor diana to talk about nell gwynn and you're going to talk about Nell as a comedy performer and her comedy persona. And without much further ado, Professor Diana, the nuance window, please. So the point I'd like to focus on about Nell Gwynn is how rare it was in the late 17th century in England for a woman to practice comedy, and how even rarer it was to tell the kind of naughty, daring jokes that Gwyn delivered. Gwyn was among the first generation of professional English actresses performing on the public stage, so she and the others had no role models, only each other. Gwyn's style of comedy was bawdy and personal, but notably not self-deprecating. The scholar Joanne Gilbert

points out that self-deprecating comedy is a strategy often adapted by marginalized comedians, a category which arguably still applies today with women remaining as the marginalized majority. But Gwyn's comedy seems to have been anything but self-deprecating. Instead, it was self-celebratory. Before she met Charles II, Gwyn had two lovers also named Charles. So we think one was the actor Charles Hart, and the other one is Charles Sackville, Lord Buckhurst. So during her affair with the king, she liked to call him Charles III. Calling the king Charles III is such a daring and immodest joke. At a time when a woman's prior sexual activity would have been something to conceal, a woman

who engaged in premarital intercourse would have been considered ruined and undesirable on the marriage market. And when even today, so-called slut shaming is still prevalent, Gwyn's joke is a stunning celebration of her sexual history. The joke also risks debasing the king. It riffs on his very title and reminds him that just like him, she too has slept with other people, and therefore that he shares an equivalence with this woman of low birth and proximity to prostitution. Though it also says a lot about Charles and his sense of security that he loved her wit and apparently didn't mind being the butt of it sometimes.

So the joke fits with Bishop Burnett's description of Gwyn as the indiscreetest and wildest creature that ever was in court. And for such a creature to have found a place in court in her time was truly remarkable. Amazing. Bravo. Jess, what's your thoughts on that? Well, it's really interesting because I have been quite a fan of self-deprecating humour, but I'm really admiring of people who don't I don't want to say resort to it but who find other ways to be funny especially women and I think it's becoming increasingly more important and so that's really inspiring actually to hear that and it's also just really funny and I do try to when I remember call my husband my current husband it's a similar thing

isn't it but what a daring thing to do when you're actually dating the king she just sounds like such a legend so what do you know now that really then brings us on to the end of the show, which is the So What Do You Know Now? This is a quickfire quiz for Jess to see how much you've remembered. How are you with exams generally? Are you feeling confident? Are you feeling pumped? Well, I haven't revised. I have a terrible memory, but we'll try, won't we? Don't worry. Without much further ado, here we go.

Question one. Roughly in what year was Nell Gwynne born? Oh no, was it 1650? It was. Well done. Question two. In her early teens, Nell Gwynne probably had a job selling what fruit at the theatre? Oranges, of course. It was oranges. Question three. In her career early on, Gwynne was one half of a theatrical power couple with which actor? Charles Hart. It was Charles Hart. Question four.

This is a tricky one. We only mentioned this briefly. Nell mostly acted at which London theatre? I don't know. Drury. It was Drury Lane somewhere. Bridges Street Playhouse. Question five.

In 1667, Gwyn played Florimel in a role written for her by John Dryden. What was the name of the play? It was like The Lover or... Oh, I can't remember. Sorry. Yeah, it was Secret Love. Yes, I mean, you're nearly there. Question six. By the early 1670s, Gwyn was living in a very posh area of London, backing onto which palace? St James's Palace. It was, and she was in the Pall Mall. Question seven.

In 1665, why did the playhouses close? Because of the plague. Yeah, it was the plague. Question eight. Roughly how old was Nell when she retired from the stage? She'd had her baby and she was 20. Yeah, she was. Question nine.

Nell Gwynne was extremely popular with which religious group in England? The Protestants. It was the Protestants. And this for eight out of ten, which is a very strong score. Name one of the donations that Nell Gwynne made in her will. She donated to debtors to be released

from prison on Christmas Day. Eight out of ten. Very well done, Jess. Very strong score. Well, I was paying attention. Have you had a nice time? Are you on board with Team Nell? Are you going to get a T-shirt? I'm getting a bastard cloak.

I'm getting it embroidered. Team Nell. Honestly, she really is an inspiration, actually, isn't she? I'm going to be more Nell. That's going to be my new mantra. You've had a brilliant teacher in Professor Diana. And listeners, if you want to get to know another comedy sensation from history check out our episode on josephine baker or if you want to know more about king charles ii's granddad you can

check out our episode on james the sixth of scotland and remember if you've had a laugh and learn some stuff please do share this podcast with your friends or leave a review online we only get paid if it gets uh played three times and make sure to subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds so you never miss an episode. All that's left for me is to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We've had the tremendous Professor Diana Solomon from Simon Fraser University. Thank you, Diana. Thank you so much for having me. I had a wonderful time.

And in Comedy Corner, we have the magnificent Jess Knappett. Thank you, Jess. Thank you. Who's doing the epilogue? That's your job. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we pull back the curtain on another instalment of historical hilarity. But for now, I'm off to go and

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