You're Dead to Me - Notting Hill Carnival

Episode Date: August 28, 2020

Greg Jenner is joined by Dr Meleisa Ono-George and comedian Nathan Caton to learn all about the roots of Notting Hill Carnival, the largest street festival in Europe. We follow the history from 18th century Trinidad to 21st century London, looking not just at how carnival traditions have changed and developed into a world famous annual celebration but how they helped empower a generation to stand together against the racial injustice they faced in the UK.

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It's time to take action. Subscribe to Power Out on BBC Sounds. Power Out. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, a history podcast for everyone. For people who don't like history, people who do like history, and people who forgot to learn any at school. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author, and broadcaster. I'm the chief nerd on the BBC comedy show Horrible Histories. And you might have listened to my other podcast, Homeschool History, but that one's mostly for the kids. This podcast is a bit different. This one's all about the chats, the chuckles, and churning our way through everything you wish you knew about world history. And today we are spanning 18th century Trinidad to 21st century London as we get to grips with the Caribbean roots of the Notting Hill Carnival, one of the largest street festivals in the world.

And to help me do that, I'm joined by two very special guests. In History Corner, she's Associate Professor at the University of Warwick. guests. In History Corner, she's Associate Professor at the University of Warwick. She's an expert on the history of race and gender and sexuality in the Caribbean and in the wider British Atlantic. You might have heard her on BBC Radio several times, and you'll definitely enjoy hearing her today. It's Professor Melissa Ono-George. Hi, Melissa. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. Thank you for joining us. And in Comedy Corner, he's an award-winning stand-up, and you may have heard him on Radio 4. You'll have seen him on Live at the Apollo, Mock the Week, Russell Howard's Good News. His BBC series Can't Tell Nathan Caton Nothing tells me that maybe we can't tell him stuff, but I'm hoping we can tell him some stuff and he'll enjoy hearing that stuff. I've given the game away a bit with the old name there. It is the wonderful Nathan Caton. Hi, Nathan. How are you? I'm good, mate. I'm happy to be here. Given that Carnival is cancelled,

this is the closest I'm getting to Carnival. I've got my flag ready. I've got my shades, mate. I'm ready to do this. Let's go. I mean, you look really summery. It's pouring the rain outside, but you look absolutely ready for Carnival. Don't kill my dream.

And as you say, this year Carnival has been cancelled due to coronavirus. Obviously hopefully it will be back very soon. Nathan, I mean, just looking through your CV, you have a degree in architecture. I know. I mean, you're a comedian so I'm assuming therefore you're brainy and funny, but where do you stand on history?

Did you enjoy it at school? It was alright. I mean, it's like history, isn't it at school it was it was all right i mean it's like it's nothing new um it was cool it was cool it wasn't my strongest subject but it was all right did you do any historical architecture junior degree yeah we have to learn about like the different styles of architecture and stuff i i didn't really like retain a lot of the information hence why i'm now a standard comedian uh like when people find out i'm an architect oh so you could design a building i was like mate i didn't say i was any good at it i mean

i've got a degree i didn't say i i smashed it my family love me all right well you're a londoner you were raised in west london i think yeah west london born and bred so does notting hill is a big part of your life you know the carnival have you been have i been mate i'm like part of the furniture my mum first took me when i was in four or five years old and i think she i don't want to bake my mum up hopefully there's no one from social services listening but i think she briefly lost me at notting hill carnival um yeah i don't know how she found me again i don't know maybe i was dancing with someone but yeah and then i started playing like playing mass with the band from like early 20s onwards and i've done like every summer it's like it's part of the calendar like normally on the weekends i'm always digging but like bank holiday in august whenever connell's on i'm always off

from like the thursday to like the tuesday wednesday because i need time to recover because there's a lot of that's awesome that's that's really cool to hear that it's uh we've actually we've got two experts today then we have professor melissa and we have professor nathan who knows all about the lived experience so melissa uh notting hill carnival have you been is it a big part of your life? No, I haven't, actually. So I am Canadian, so my carnival is Caravana in Toronto. And yeah, Caravana is a big part of my life. It is so big, actually, that we still have a Caravana in Warwick,

in my backyard on the first weekend of August. Cool. So we don't miss out. So, what do you know? That leads us on to the so what do you know? And this is where I have a go at guessing what you at home might know about today's subject. And given that it is the second largest street festival in the world, I think you're probably going to know quite a lot about

Notting Hill Carnival. If you are one of the millions of people who've had the joy of experiencing it, you will know that it's a celebration of Caribbean culture, chock full of music, dance, calypso, steel drums, masquerade, dotted with hundreds of delicious food stalls and loads more besides. And if none of that is ringing any bells and your only knowledge is Notting Hill being the movie starring Julia Roberts and Hugh Grant involving some spilled orange juice, well then chances are you are really missing out. But Notting Hill the movie and Notting Hill the carnival are very different and today we're all about the carnival. So how did it become one of the world's most beloved and most enjoyable festivals? How did it find

its way from the Caribbean to West London? Let's find out. Melissa, can we start with a bit of context then? If we're going to trace the roots of the festival, of the carnival, when and where do we need to start? Are we going back to 1783 and cedula? So the cedula of population 1783 was an edict that was passed by the representative of the King of Spain. And it basically just opened up Trinidad, which was colonised by the Spanish to non-Spanish Roman Catholic immigration,

including many French immigrants. So French from some of the Caribbean islands, but also from France, basically fled Trinidad during this period. And they bring with them many of their traditions and their customs, including Carnival. So Carnival has an interesting history because it's about Spanish and French and African roots straight from the origins, I guess. Because there's a large number of French immigrants coming from the Caribbean, it's already Creolized

by the time it actually comes to Trinidad. So it's already a mixture of French and African tradition. Yeah, and they have Carnival in France, which is obviously a little bit different at this time. So this is a fusion of different styles of different ideas. Can you tell us about Negre Jardin and Camboulet? They sound like delicious desserts in a French restaurant. You know, they sound boozy and sweet. They sound like some girls I've met on Tinder. So the enslaved are pretty much banned from masquerade during this early period. However, a big part of Carnival is about white mimicry of enslaved people. And so white men basically would sit up their face, they'd blacken their faces, and they would put on tattered clothes, and they would imitate enslaved field labourers. And that was called Nigret Jordan.

Wow, that's not okay. There's more to it than that. So you add the can brûlée as well. So can brûlée comes from the French word of can brûlée, so burnt cane. So basically, when a fire would break out on a plantation, the slave owners would gather all the enslaved from different estates and they would all sort of rush to the estate where the cane was burning in order to grind out the cane before it soured. And so that was like usually a midnight procession. So you can imagine enslaved people are being woken from their sleep to go and save these white people's sugar cane. And so part of the carnival, the Camboulaly procession during this period is a

reenactment of that procession. But by white people? By white people. Who are blacking up? Who are blacking up. Listen, I dare any white people to try that next year's carnival, what happens? Let's definitely not put that invitation out there. So I mean, I have to say, Melissa, this is slightly shocking because my assumption was that Carnival would have its roots in black people expressing themselves, but actually the roots here are white people mocking people they've enslaved and brutalised. It's kind of the roots of it are cruel. Yeah, I mean, Carnival, I think is about subversion ultimately. During the pre-Emancipation period, it is white subversion. It's a white elite subversion. I think they probably saw it as a part of letting loose before Lent, right? Before they have to start fasting and be really serious. So the enslaved people didn't get to have any

kind of carnival. What about free black people? You know, there were many people on the island who were liberated, they were emancipated, they could go about their lives to a certain extent. Are they having a kind of fact, in terms of the processions, in terms of the masquerade and out on the streets, the white elite would essentially go from house to house, right? So they were on the streets really briefly. But one interpretation or one actually, it was the free people of color and free black people who made Carnival about the streets. So they were all out on the streets as much as possible. I'm intrigued to know what kind of music they were jamming to, what kind of dances they were busting out. Were they like white slave owners

whining when other white slave owners? No, probably not. I mean, it was drumming and they would often have enslaved people performing the music, even if they weren't actually taking part in the celebration. But whining and stuff comes much later. Greg, can I ask, are you familiar with familiar with whining no i'm not so familiar with it i am incredibly white so i would love i'd love uh i'd love to hear a definition please okay well it's all in the hips it's it's gyrating the hips to the uh the motion in the ocean to the beat well i mean i have no, I have no rhythm, but, you know, that's fine. I'll do my best. Don't downplay yourself.

I'm sure you've got rhythm, mate. Come on. I did ballet as a kid, so I can do ballet. I can't do the hips so much. Right, so, yeah, you've got some form of dance. That's fine. Okay, so say, like, if you're on the road, right, and you see a girl who takes an eye,

and you want to take a whine, you'll approach with caution, right? And you just kind of like match movements and that's taking a wine. I love it. I'll try it with the wife later on. Okay, cool. Hey, I see you, Greg. I see you. And what about Christmas, Melissa? Because Christmas seemed to be a time of year where even the enslaved people might have been given a little bit more freedom to express themselves.

Is that fair? Is there any kind of Christmas carnival element going on? So yeah, so Christmas is a time of rest and people are definitely taking the opportunity to gather together and to have parties and so on. But I think there's another element to Christmas that was not present in sort of white carnival. And that was, you know, people were gathering together. They were probably conspiring to like burn shit down, really. And that's what actually, there's an anthropologist named Robert Dirks

who talks about these periods of celebration like Christmas or Easter when enslaved people could gather, that these were often the times where you would find slave rebellions. Wow. So they get together, they have some turkey, and they're thinking, right, come on, let's get rid of this. What do you want for Christmas? A toy? A teddy? No, freedom, mate. Freedom. But we do get the abolition of slavery. 1838 is when really

it kicks in in the Caribbean, doesn't it, Melissa? What kind of impact does that have on Carnival? Does that now mean that people of colour, black people, can embrace Carnival for themselves? Absolutely. Emancipation completely transforms Carnival. Carnival goes from being a celebration, predominantly white elite, to being a celebration of the masses, of the black poor, essentially, and the black poor and working class. Yeah, and so people take to the streets.

I mean, as soon as emancipation has passed, people are on the streets celebrating. And it's actually, it's funny because the carnival in some other parts of the country, so in Toronto, it's still Emancipation Day that's celebrated. Caravana. Yeah, Caravana. Nathan, the modern carnival, how would you describe it?

What are you getting up to? My parents could be listening to this. They think I'm a good Christian boy. A lot of fun, just freeing up yourself, you know what I mean? A lot of drinking, a lot of dancing, a lot of partying, just everyone getting on and having a good time. You know what I mean? There's a popular circus song by an artist called Michelle Montana.

It's a song called Family. And it's all about everyone that's been won, regardless of where you're from. And that's kind of me, that sums up Carnival. Everyone just jamming, having a good time, enjoying the music, enjoying the food, enjoying the vibes. It's a lovely, happy, blurry weekend. With a two day rest period afterwards. Exactly. All right. Well, let's find out what Carnival would have been like in the 1850s and 60s if Nathan and I jumped in a time machine and we went back to Trinidad. This is the Jamet Carnival or Carnival. What's going on, Melissa? Does it sound similar to Nathan's fun weekend? Way more raucous than I think.

I think it's more familiar. This period of Carnival would probably be way more familiar to you, Nathan, and to people today. Can I read a description from a newspaper? Yeah, please. So this is from the San Fernando Gazette. They describe it as, hordes of men and women, youthful in years, but mature in every vice that perverts and degrades humanity, who dwell together in all the rude licentiousness of barbarian life, men without aim, without occupation and without any recognized mode of existence, women wanton, perverse and depraved beyond expression. So this is a description of Carnival, 1871, written by an elite white man, probably,

describing what he is seeing on the street. That sounds like a party. I'm not going to lie. So this is essentially young black men and women getting on bad in the streets. Like that's it. Life is dancing. Yeah.

You'll see whining, right? You'll see lots of naked bodies, right? Or, you know, very refueling costumes. Lots of carnival players criticising, mocking the white elite in both song, but also in the dress and the mask and mannerisms. And you'll also see a different kind

of Camboulais procession as well. The formerly enslaved take this procession back. Yeah, they reclaim it and they're making it theirs. They're taking it to the streets. And I would actually argue that burnt cane, Camboulais, has a different interpretation. So one of the ways that people, when there was slave rebellions in the Caribbean, one of the acts of rebellion was to burn down the cane fields. And there's even some music, we're going to burn down the cane fields. That's's even some music, we're going to burn down the cane field, right? That's what people would do. And so I think that is also that part of an expression of freedom. And Melissa, we have another word I want to include here, which is Jean Canoe. Jean Canoe Festival is predominantly in Jamaica.

It's a Christmas festival. So it usually comes after Christmas. It's a boxing day. Boxing day and so on. Does that get sucked into the wider Carnival tradition as well, or are they separate? Predominantly in Jamaica opposed to Trinidad. The different islands have different versions of Carnival. So in Barbados, they have like Crop Over as well,

which is a harvest festival. There's similar elements. The music is similar. The music is similar. The dance is similar. The masquerade. I think the big difference is around timing. Nathan, do you know what calendar is with a K or kalenda? I've got one on my wall. No, what is it? Melissa, am I getting the pronunciation wrong? I would pronounce it kalenda.

Kalenda. Okay. It's a form of ritual dance, but it's stick fight. So this is a part of that wider kombu le tradition as well. Is it primarily men doing this, a kind of ritual dance where they challenge each other and they fight with sticks, but it's a kind of joyful fight? Is that right? Yeah, they are hitting each other. It is a performance. Are you trying to tell me then that when I go to Carnival and I see various youths who are pushing and shoving each other, it's not really postcode wars, it's just calendar? I think this is where you get a lot of the sparring between the sound systems, yes. We also have drumming, of course, with the parades people are drumming, but they're not yet drumming on steel drums. They're improvising a bit. Do we also have calypso at this time,

Melissa? So 19th century Trinidad, you don't have calypso in the same way that we would recognise calypso today. The stick fighting, there is music associated with that, Kalendon music, the music that the formerly enslaved were singing, the chantwells, the back and forth, that becomes the origin of Calypso. And it's because of changes in laws around Calenday. So chantwell is originally sung by women and they would sing this quite satirical and mocking music or songs to the opponents. When the stick fighting is banned, then the former stick fighters then started to engage in the chant wells and start using song as their

weapons instead of actual sticks. Like a sound clash? Yeah. I had no idea. Healthy competition even back in the day. Yeah. As you know, if you can't use the sticks, you're going to just have to use your words, but you can still be violent. I can't imagine they had the sound effects that we have now. It's like having your mum jokes in the folk.

I speak that language very well. Nathan, when it comes to the modern carnival, you talked about mass or the masquerades do you get dressed up or are you just watching no no no I'm if I do it I'm going all in dressed up in costume many a time what's been your favorite my favorite costume it wasn't the best costume but just for sentimental reasons my outfit that I wore at Trinidad carnival 2018 it was a simple white shorts with a matching matching kind of that green trim and stuff like that and feathers.

But it was just the fact that I was in Trinidad where I'd always wanted to go. So that for me, it holds a special moment in my heart. Yeah, that's nice. And the feathers, where'd they get them from? Were they local bird? No birds were harmed in the making of this costume. But in terms of the masquerade vibe in the 19th century, Melissa, the costumes here are pretty full on.

And the vibe here is not necessarily sexy, more kind of scary, full on. They've gone for this aversive thing, haven't they? 19th century kind of owl really leans into the kind of demonic devilish look. So pre-Emancipcipation white elites are mocking black people so just give us a break haven't we suffered enough put us through that shit for how many hundreds of years we are going to take the piss now and so the mass there's some traditional mass and all the rest of it but there are definitely quite explicitly sexual performances and characters. Probably the most notorious was the pincelé,

which literally translates as bedwetter. Pissonnerie is the kind of what I've got in terms of the French pronunciation, which means piss the bed, wet the bed. What do you call me? It is really full on in terms of its provocation, isn't it, Melissa? They really lean into that transgressive element. The subversion is that men are dressing as women. And I believe that they also at times dress as white women. And then you had black women who were dressing as European men, two different characters. They would mask themselves as women in long, transparent

dresses, night dresses. Some of them carried menstrual cloth stained with blood and they would thrust their drawings. They sang naughty songs. Your face, Nathan, when the menstrual pads was mentioned, were you not expecting that? Yeah, I did not see that one coming. I mean, I'm drinking some hot chocolate at the moment and now I've just put that down quick because...

The women were also dressed in not only as men, but as white men would also occasionally bare their breasts and be incredibly disorderly. So they're whining? They are more than whining. really intense, joyful, raucous, noisy, transgressive parade with drumming, with singing, with sexuality. Unsurprisingly, the authorities, not too keen. So they come down pretty hard on it. They try to clean up Carnival, right? And there's all these efforts in sort of the latter part of the 19th century, or at least from like 1860s onward to clean this up. They banned torches in 1868. They try banning the camp ballet that leads to a riot. They try banning drumming and then stick fighting and the cross

dressing in general in 1894. So they've taken all the fun out? Yeah. It just sounds like a carnival of muted silence. Yeah. So what were they doing then? What were they allowed to do? Were they allowed to parade but quietly? Were they allowed to parade but quietly? They were allowed to parade and they're allowed to parade with music, other kinds of music. But actually there's innovation that happens because of these measures that are put into place. Yeah, so instead of drumming they have tambu bambu. Nathan, do you want to guess

what tambu bambu is? Does it derive from tambourines? Well, that's good. That's probably linked, isn't it? It is a form of percussion, isn't it? GCSE English, nailed it! So tambu-bambu are sticks that they beat on the ground rather than drumming. You can tune them to a certain pitch and they become a musical instrument that is permitted instead of drumming. The tambu-bambu is sort of the first instrument in the evolution of the steel pan.

As a part of that, the bands also start using things like bottles and spoons as well. So we're starting to see the origins of that steel calypso sound with the melodic element of the drumming is coming in, which is lovely. And then by the 1930s, we scroll forward and we get the arrival of steel drums, really. We've got dustbin lids being hit, which obviously gives that a nice metallic sound. And this is when we get another big deal in 1939 in Trinidad, we get the first Calypso King. Yes. So it is a competition between performers. Men compete to become the Calypso King. And the first Calypso King is Growling Tiger.

That's a movie, isn't it? All right. So 1939, first Calypso King. And then, of course, World War II turns up with a sort of Hitler-shaped face and ruins everything. But after the war, we do get back to usual business. In 1945, we get Carnival returning to Trinidad. I think what's important now is we move forward in history a little bit into the British story, because we've had all those fantastic Caribbean origins. But we know we're here to talk about Notting Hill. That means we need to get on to Windrush. And Windrush generation has been in the news a huge amount recently for obvious reasons, because it's been a huge scandal. But what is Windrush really? Melissa, who are the Windrush generation? How do they arrive here? So post-war Britain has been devastated by the Nazis and it The Nazis. And it needs help. So they do a call out to their empire, including to the Caribbean. And in 1948, you have Empire Windrush. The ship arrives with 500 people, mostly from Jamaica, I think, but also Trinidad and some of the other islands.

They paid a lot for their ticket and were responding to these job shortages in the UK. They've traveled all this way to help rebuild the mother country and people are still thinking about it as the mother country. You say you prefer to as a mother country, like my grandma still calls Antigua home. I'm going home. When are you going home? Someone says to me, when's the last time you've been home? I was like, well, I live in Greenford. I was there this morning. But home for her is Antigua. Is she part of the Windrush generation? when's the last time you've been home? I was like, well, I live in Greenford. I was there this morning.

But home for her is Antigua. Is she part of the Windrush generation? She came here in 1961. Yeah. So she would be considered part of... She's still here. She's worked her arse off so that 50 years later, her grandson could turn down

an architecture degree and tell jokes for a living. Yay! I'm getting a sense here that the grandmother wasn't entirely pleased with that choice. Mate, her reaction was priceless. A comedian? Even funny, boy.

Go on, tell me how you look. So the Windrush generation are a huge part of the 20th century story. Of course, there have been black people in the UK for 2,000 years, since Roman times. But as you say, Melissa, this is a very strong West Indian Caribbean community that arrives over the next few years from 1948 onwards. And they become a strong community in West London. They become a community in Nottingham, in Leeds, in various cities around the UK. And the Midlands.

Yeah, the Midlands, of course. One of the people who will be part of this generation is also an extraordinary woman called Claudia Jones. So extraordinary. She got her stamp in 2008. So you could get the Queen or you could get Claudia Jones. You could choose to lick the back of their heads. What was it about Claudia Jones that was so interesting? She's born in Trinidad, but she doesn't then come straight to the UK. She goes to America first, doesn't she? Absolutely. So she is in Harlem in New York in her childhood, and she is a journalist and a communist activist there. And she writes quite powerfully about intersectional feminism and about

the rights of people. And she's essentially hounded by the McCarthy era anti-communist agenda. She's sent to jail. And as a result of that, after she comes out, she ends up coming to Britain. I mean, she's a part of this transnational migration of people during this period. She turns up in 1955, which, as you say, is that kind of era of Britain still getting back on its feet after the war. And she becomes very quickly a real leader in the Caribbean community. Yeah, absolutely. She starts a newspaper called the West Indian Gazette, quite a political newspaper. Yeah, I mean, once it was founded, it was called the West Indian Gazette,

but it then expanded its title to bring in the other communities. It was the West Indian Gazette and Afro-Asian Caribbean News. Yeah. Nathan, have you ever heard of it? No. The West Indian Gazette? No. I mean, is it still in circulation? When did it start? No, it started in 1958. And then it unfortunately lasted only about six years, I think. It ended when she did, sadly, when she died. But it was the first real black newspaper in the UK. And it was really important, wasn't it, Melissa? Absolutely. It was incredibly important. And because it was so political, and because it spoke to not only the Caribbean community, but also, I would say, quite a radical black and a community of colour. So even Asian community as

well. She did a lot of organising as well. And so very political. And just to say, in addition to that, that one of the people that was quite profound in helping her was another woman who a lot of people don't know, which is a shame, Amy Ashwood Garvey, who was Marcus Garvey's first wife. Again, fascinating character, an intellectual, but a real force of nature as well. Absolutely. And really important in terms of race relations in this country. So 1958 is a really crucial year because we get the launch of the newspaper. Claudia Jones has been in the UK for three years. But it's also, of course, when this story takes a really sad,

dark, violent turn, because we get horrible violence against that Caribbean community, against the black community in London, in Notting Hill, don't we? Not just Notting Hill and Nottingham as well. These are white perpetuated violence against black people. And this goes on for quite a while. According to some of the research, they assume that there's about 200 strong mob of white people attacking black people in Notting Hill. When the journalists actually interview some of these hooligans, they say that it's because they want to keep Britain white. We'll take our music and our seasoning home. Leave us alone. Yeah, I mean, what's interesting, I suppose, is that this violence happens across the 29th of

August 1958, which is that bank holiday weekend that we now see Notting Hill Festival on. So that violence will lead ultimately to Notting Hill Carnival, to the kind of joyful expression now. But this is a horrible story. There are 108 people that are arrested. There is terrible violence. And then in 1959, we get a murder of Kelso Cochran,

who is an Antiguan carpenter on his way home from work, lives in Notting Hill, and he is stabbed and murdered by a white gang. 1,200 people attend his funeral, and it's a real moment of electrification of this campaign, isn't it? Claudia Jones, the people in that organisation now say, right, we're going to have to do something about this. We have to respond to this violence, don't they?

I mean, before there was the Indian Gazette is, so it's set up in 1958. But with Cochrane's murder, it's very much about what's happening, you know, what's happened domestically, not just in terms of Britain's relationship with its colonies, which is what part of its focus was before. And so in 1959, we do get the West Indian Gazette saying they're going to sponsor an indoor Caribbean carnival. Claudia Jones is involved, and so she gets the nickname the Mother of Notting Hill Carnival, which is a pretty good nickname. This is the first iteration of a carnival, but it's indoors. A quote here from David Roussel Milner, who's an early member of the committee,

who says, one question always in our minds was how to move our carnival onto the same streets of Notting Hill where black blood had been spilt by the racist murder of Kelso Cochrane. That feels to me, Melissa, quite similar to the 19th century story you talked about of the people of Trinidad reclaiming the streets, reclaiming Carnival, Cumberlay. I mean, the streets are incredibly political. They're a politicised space. Being able to occupy that space is really important. The act of resistance. Yeah. The first indoor Caribbean Carnival takes place in 1958-59. And it happens where, Nathan? Have a guess.

Where? Indoor? It's not actually in Notting Hill yet. It happens in St Pancras Town Hall. Get out of here. It's not quite the same vibe as Trinidad in the summer, is it? It's a bit more. But the money raised from that indoor carnival is given over to the legal funds of those people who'd been arrested in the riots after the murder of kelso cochran so this is a community raising funds to then help those people who've been you know thrown into the legal system fallen foul of the police so we've already had the calypso king 1939 in trinidad but here we get the carnival queen in 1960 there's a woman called marlene walker who wins it. Nathan, do you want to guess what her prize is? Freedom? No, I'm going to guess a thousand pounds.

Maybe it would have cost a thousand pounds. She gets to go home for a holiday back to the Caribbean. She gets an all expenses paid trip back home. It's not just an iPod shuffle. It's not just a kind of hamper. It's a proper trip back, which is nice. Was it a return ticket or was it a trick? I think it was a return ticket. Congratulations, you've won a competition. Get on this boat, never come back.

No, I think she's turned into a bit of a celebrity, actually. The West Indian Gazette follow her story for the next few months and regularly have updates on what the Carnival Queen is up to. So Melissa, in the 1960s, Notting Hill Carnival is sort of finding its feet, but it's not the only carnival happening. And it's not exclusively just a Caribbean festival, is it? So no, not at all. It is actually quite representative of the diversity of Notting Hill during this period, which includes quite a number of people from different parts of the world. It's

an incredibly diverse area. And so it's actually an incredibly diverse festival. But it's also a celebration that's happening in other parts of the UK. So in places like Leeds and Bristol. You know, we can start to see the origins here of Notting Hill Carnival. It's not quite happening in Notting Hill and it's not quite Carnival yet. And then in 1964, sadly, we do lose the mother of the Carnival in Claudia Jones. She does pass and the newspaper goes with her. But we now see other people stepping up to carry on her work. One of the most important perhaps is Ronnie Lasnett, who is a key organiser. She is organising what's called the Notting Hill Fair, spelled F-A-Y-R-E. That's in 1965-1966. This introduces the steel band element to it. This is the first time

we see the steel band arriving in Britain, basically. And we get some important people here who are musicians there. So you've got Selwyn Baptiste, who's credited with teaching the steel pan drums throughout the UK. We get Russ Henderson, and we also get Sterling Betancourt. I love that name. He is still alive and he is still drumming. He's 90 years old and he still performs. He still plays. Wow, at 90, mate.

And we also have Leslie Palmer as well. His nickname was Teacher. His contribution was that he's bringing education into it, isn't it, Melissa? He wants to be about the youth, about the education, about schools, about bringing communities together. But he also is about not just Trinidad, it's about bringing all the island cultures together. So in the 70s, he completely revolutionised this event. So he wanted to broaden the event to make it more inclusive of all the Caribbean islands, as well as British born black youth. And so it becomes a music, a festival of black music, really. And so there are more steel bands, there are reggae groups,

there are sound systems. And of course, attendance goes up. People love it from around 3,000 in the early 70s to around 30,000 to 50,000. It's hard to measure these numbers, isn't it? But I think 1975, that's kind of the year where notting hill carnival as you know it nathan feels like the year where it really comes into its own and that's leslie teacher palmer really as being the president of the committee actually bringing that forward and

introducing the sound system so he has a huge influence carnival takes place bankrolly in august is that to commemorate the attacks that happened to the black community on 20th August back in 1958? I think when Claudia Jones, the first indoor festival, I think is held in February. So it's actually held around the time of Carnival. Exactly. I see your face there, Nathan, because people are just like, nobody wants to be out in February. A carnival costume in February in England. You'd have a lot of people just wearing a lot of knitwear, presumably. A lot of really chunky jumpers.

A lot of people whining just to stay warm. So, yeah, I mean, the August thing, from a practical point of view, I guess that's vaguely when it's warm in England. The crucial thing to say is that in the 1960s, race relations were vaguely improving, but there is still intense racism, of course. There's 1965 Race Relations Act, which is the first legislation to outlaw racial discrimination, but it doesn't apply to housing or employment, which are kind of like two of the most important ones. And then in 1968, they get added in. So you're starting to see the UK becoming hopefully a bit more tolerant and welcoming. But I'm afraid to say that 1975, we get the first major Notting Hill carnival. As you said, Melissa, 30 to 50,000 people, but some say up to 150,000 people are turning up. But 1976 is a really it's a bad year because this is the year where the police come down really hard on on the people there

this is a time where there are things called the sus laws have you ever heard of them nathan no i've not heard of them what are these sus laws sus sus is in suspect it's basically the stop and search laws of the 1970s. Black people were way more likely to be stopped and searched than white people. So this is police harassment, unfortunately, in the 1970s. This happened to me at Carnival a few times. Has it? Oh yeah! Once I was there with my girlfriend. We were about to leave Carnival and there

was a black guy in front of us, and the police randomly stopped him. And then another police officer came over and was like, your mate's been stopped, so you have to go over as well. I was like, I don't know him, mate. It's so weird. It's like, do you think this is Carnival, like a massive family reunion? I'm sorry to hear that, but the SAS laws in 1976

were used very aggressively, and this led to a really, really serious riots. The 1976 Notting Hill riots, which were violent and police were heavy handed. People were hurt. Police were hurt. This was a community responding to sustained harassment, wasn't it, Melissa? Yeah, this is how we have responded historically when our civil liberties and our rights have been taken. Yeah. So it's back to the 19th century again, I suppose. Yeah, even before that, really. But then, of course, there were even more famous riots in 1981. So Nathan,

you might have heard of the Brixton riots, the Toxteth riots, Handsworth in Birmingham, Chapel Town, Leeds, Moss Side, Manchester. It spreads across the country. And then again, of course, 2011, the shooting ofeds, Moss Side, Manchester. You know, it spreads across the country. And then again, of course, 2011, the shooting of Mark Duggan by police. Riots again around the UK. So Notting Hill Carnival is intimately tied up to those outbreaks of rioting, I guess, of protest. Some would say of violence that spills over. But this is a long story.

It's a long heritage and history, isn't it, Melissa? Really, we can trace it back a long way. Hopefully, I mean, I don't know if you feel this way, Nathan, but modern carnival is hopefully a lot safer. Modern policing is much more effective. There are 12,500 police officers on duty. There are 40,000 volunteers, and there are only several hundred arrests now. But that is out of a congregation of... actually, do you want to guess how many people turn up to Notting Hill Carnival every year?

Oh, gosh, I think I've heard this stat. It's about 1.1, 1.2 million. Yeah, bang on. It's at least a million, some say up to sometimes nearly 2 million. It's incredible numbers of people and the arrests are in the hundreds. So actually, you know, this is not at all a violent festival or carnival. No, because that's what they see on the news. They see someone's been arrested, someone's been stabbed and think that's carnival. It's a very small, miniscule minority, but as always, it's the minority of idiots who take with headlines and the majority who are just fun loving, peaceful people who are just fun-loving,

peaceful people who are there to have a good time together. Yeah. Notting Hill Carnival is 11 times bigger than Glastonbury. Glastonbury is massive in itself, so geez! Absolutely. There are now 40 static sound systems. Leslie, teacher Palmer, brought the sound systems in, but now we have 40 of them. It's the second biggest carnival in the world, just behind Rio de Janeiro in Brazil. Carnival is an expression of the freedoms and of the creativity of the Caribbean community. But it is also unfortunately a story that is sad at times. The Nuance Window!

I guess that brings us to the Nuance as well. This is where Nathan, you and I, we have a little breather. And our expert Melissa has two minutes to tell us something that we need to know about this story. So I'm going to get my stopwatch up. Melissa, without much further ado, the nuance window, please. One of the most notable parts of Caribbean Carnival, Trinidad, Jamaica and Barbados and celebrations derived from it in London, Miami, and Toronto are the women in revealing and incredibly beautiful costumes, winding up and getting on bad.

And this has been a traditional part of carnival from the 19th century, as we've discussed, and has carried on until today. But so has the criticism and often the attacks on women who take place, some of them quite horrific. And the way that women dress and behave in the streets, the cussing in public, the fighting, the being loud, the whining, the sexuality in the public space has been and remains very political in large part because these are behaviors that challenge elite conceptions of public space,

gender and respectability. But even beyond Carnival in the post-emancipation period, the laws that regulate the way that women in particular operate and behave in public space. And these include vagrancy laws and other kinds of laws that would class women who are just hanging out as common prostitutes because they are in public spaces. One of the interesting things about Carnival is it's the way that it ties to public political action and the way that it ties to women's political action in public space. And so for Creole working class, so Caribbean working class women, we are often in the forefront of Carnival, but we're also often in the forefront of political action, often in the forefront of demonstrations that are happening and often using the kinds of tools that we have, including our bodies, including our words, our language to rally against the systems of white supremacist and patriarchal systems that would otherwise try to subdue and subvert us. So Carnival, then, is not just about women in really beautiful costumes winding up and getting on bad,

it's actually more political than that, I would say. And I think that this is the way that we, as women, have often claimed these spaces. Amazing. Thank you so much. Nathan, thoughts on that? I should say, I never thought I would see the day when the phrase is winding up and getting on bad would be on BBC Radio 4. I come to get on bad. I come to get on bad. So what do you know now? Well, I mean, I love that so much,

but it's now time to see how much Nathan has remembered, how much he's learned from our discussion. It's time for quiz this is called the so what do you know now it's a 60 second quickfire quiz um nathan we know you're a smarty pants you've got a degree in architecture so you know i'm expecting you to absolutely nail this are you feeling like you've you've picked up some stuff here or is it all a bit of a blur oh Oh gosh, we'll find out together. Come on, man. I believe in you. All right. 60 seconds on the clock.

Here we go. Question one. The elements associated with Carnival today can be most easily traced back to which Caribbean island? Trinidad. Trinidad's correct. What was Camboulais? That was the festival where they mocked the slave owners.

Yeah, it could be. Absolutely. Question three. During the 1860s and 80s, name two of the elements of carnival that were banned by the colonial administration in Trinidad. The drumming. Yep. The scary costumes.

Yep. Yep. And the stick fighting, cross-dressing, lighting of torches. Yeah, absolutely. Question four. Which carnival competition made its first official appearance in 1939? Silky King. Yeah, Calypso King.

Yeah. Question five. Born in Trinidad, jailed in America and arriving in the UK in 1955, who was the mother of Notting Hill Carnival? Claudia... Johns? No, not Claudia Johnson. Jones! Claudia Jones. Jones.

Call her Jones. Yeah, absolutely. Well done. Question six. What is the name of the community newspaper that she set up in London in 1958? The West Indian Gazette. Yes. Question seven.

1960, Marlene Walker was crowned Carnival Queen. What was her prize? Oh, she got to go home. She did. Question eight. You're she got to go home. She did. Question eight. You're doing really well so far. Question eight. Russ Henderson, Selwyn Baptiste

and Sterling Betancourt play which musical instruments? Steel band. Steel band. Question nine. Between 1973 and 75, Leslie Teacher Palmer introduced which elements

into the Notting Hill Carnival? Is that the stationary sound systems yes absolutely and he also introduced sort of the major parade the costume parade yeah and he introduced the idea of it being uh for all the island communities and question 10 let's see if we can give you a perfect run here this is for 10 out of 10 today notting hill carnival is the size of how many Glastonbury's? 11. 10 out of 10. Nailed it. Well done, Nathan. Absolutely fantastic.

Proof that Melissa has filled your brain with excellent knowledge. Thank you, Nathan. I had full faith. I mean, that was a fantastic conversation. We've had a brilliant time. Do you feel more clued up, Nathan, on Carnival's history? Has this helped you look at Carnival differently? It's given me a deeper level, deeper knowledge of it,

which means that as I'm drinking Van Punch, I will take in more. Lovely. And you're missing this year, obviously, because of coronavirus, but next year, you're going to whine doubly hard,

I'm sure. I've got to, it's possible to go doubly as hard as I go, mate. I go in. I go, I go, I ham it up. Lovely. All right, well, listeners, if you've enjoyed listening to today's podcast,

please do share it with your friends online, leave a review, and make sure to subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode. But for now, I think we have to leave it there. So let me say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner, the marvellous Professor Melissa Ono-George from the University of Warwick. Thank you, Melissa. Thank you for having me. And of course, in Comedy Corner, the incomparable Nathan Caton. Thank you, Nathan. Thank you for having me, guys. It's been an absolute pleasure. I will have a sip of rum ponfee for every one of you.

And to you listeners, join me next time for another cheeky historical chit-chat with two completely different historical guests. And if you just can't wait until then, why not go and and check out the back catalogue if you have some serious hankerings for some other festivals why not go listen to the ancient greek olympics episode but for now i'm off to go and put on uh my costume and i'm going to write a stern letter to richard curtis because notting hill well that wasn't very carnival, was it? No. With that, bye! You're Dead to Me was a Muddy Knees media production for BBC Radio 4. The researchers were Amy Grant and Olivia Wyatt. The script was by Emma Magoose and me.

The project manager was Isla Matthews and the producer was Cornelius Mendes. Are you still there? Good. There's someone I want you to meet. Their name is Sean, they're 16, and they're in trouble. Follow Sean's journey by subscribing to Power Up on BBC Sense. The world is dying. It's time to take action. Power out. Power out. Power out.