You're Dead to Me - Owain Glyndŵr

Episode Date: October 22, 2021

Greg Jenner is joined by comedian Elis James and historian Dr Kathryn Hurlock to explore the life and political career of medieval Welsh rebel Owain Glyndŵr, the last Welsh-born Prince of Wales, who led an uprising against English rule. It’s an extraordinary tale of war, vengeance, poetry, annoying next-door neighbours, top-notch gardens and probably a lot of damp and drizzly battlefield action (and inaction). Plus Greg squeezes in an obligatory Tottenham Hotspur reference.Research: Kierri Price Script: Emma Nagouse, Kierri Price and Greg Jenner Project manager: Siefe Miyo Edit producer: Cornelius Mendez

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, a comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner, I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster and I'm the chief nerd on the funny kids TV show Horrible Histories. And today we are wandering into the verdant valleys of medieval Wales to get to know the historical hero, Owain Glyndwr. And to help me do that, I'm joined by two very special guests. In History Corner, she's a reader in medieval history at Manchester Metropolitan

University, and is an expert in the impact of the Crusades in medieval Britain, how experiences of warfare affected those who took part, and the history of religious pilgrimages. But handily for us, she also teaches the politics of medieval Wales. It's Dr Catherine Herlock. Hi, Catherine, how are you? Hello, I'm great. And in Comedy Corner, he's a comedian, actor and broadcasting legend. You may recognise his sonorous voice from his XFM and BBC Radio 5 live shows,

co-hosted with the ace John Robbins. Or you may have heard his BBC Sounds podcasts, How Do You Cope? Or you may have caught him in sitcoms like Crimms or Josh, or seen him on game shows like Richard Osman's House of Games. He's a busy man and he does loads of sports documentaries. It's Carmarthen's finest, Ellis James. Welcome, Ellis. Hello, thank you for having me. I'm tremendously excited to be on. Ah, well, we're tremendously excited to have you here.

Ellis, I'm not even going to pretend that I'm going to ask you about, do you like history? Because I know you love history. Every time we hang out, it's all you talk about. My closest friend is an actual historian, you see. So you're the person I go to. You and there's a historian called Martin Johns who works at Swansea University. I hassle him. I don't think he really likes it. I've got a degree in history, then I did an MA, and then I realised halfway through the MA that I was too thick to carry on with it. And so that's where it ended. I'm a frustrated historian. You're not too thick.

You should have seen me when I was writing that dissertation, man. The tears, the stress and the eczema. Okay, well, hopefully no eczema today and no stress or no tears. Ellis, you are also probably the proudest Welsh person I know. So I'm guessing that in your teens, the posters on your walls were Nye Be name. I'm actually Eoin Ellis, James, because Mam is a bit of a Welsh nationalist. If you go to school in Wales, as I did, especially Welsh media education, he does loom large. But I never studied him properly because my degree was in modern history and politics. So I never went back as far as Eoin Glyndwr. But I've got a very, very, very basic knowledge of him. So me, you get to find out more. I love the fact that you're named after. I mean, by the endlandur, but I've got a very, very, very basic knowledge of him. So I'm eager to find out more.

I love the fact that you're named after it. I mean, by the end of this, you might be leading rebellion. So what do you know? So this is the So What Do You Know? This is where I guess what the lovely listeners at home know about today's subject. And if you're Welsh, like Catherine and Ellis, then that's probably a redundant question because Owen Glyndwr is an icon of national resistance, the man who took on the English. But to everyone else, I suspect Owen Glyndwr's name is tinged with romance. There's

a little bit of recognition there, but maybe not so many facts. If you prefer your drama on the stage rather than battlefield, then you might recognise Owen as a character, or rather Owen Glendower, as he's called, in Shakespeare's Henry IV, Part 1. Or if you like Welsh rock music, you're going to know the Manic Street Preachers track 1404, which is a melancholic tribute song to what could have been. He also pops up in fantasy novels by authors like Terry Brooks, Susan Cooper, Maggie Stiefvater, and he's sort of the Welsh William Wallace, but Hollywood hasn't made a big movie about him, which is a little bit surprising, perhaps. So what do we need to know about the now legendary man, and can we tell the original Owain from the Glyndwr gossip?

Let's find out, shall we? Firstly, Catherine, as we've already heard, Owain Glyndwr is a man of many names. He's known as Owain Glyndwr, but also Owain Glyn-dwr as two separate surnames, or Owain Ap Griffith, which is the traditional title taken from his father's name, Lord of Glyndwrthi, which is Owain of the Valley of the Dee, or anglicised, as you said, thanks to Shakespeare, as Owain Glyn-dawr, which if you're a welsh speaker is really annoying

it goes through me yeah it's like nails down a blackboard yeah at this point i need to apologize because when we did a horrible history song about owen we had to go with the english pronunciation to make all the rhymes work because man of the hour great power we did a tom jones parody in the style of delilah it's a great song you can it up on YouTube. We got a lot of angry letters. 40 of them are from me. So, Ellis, can we have your best pronunciation, please, of how you'd like me to say it? Au-wine-glin-do-r is how I would pronounce it. Beautiful.

We'll just drop that in, I think. Whenever I'm going to say it, we'll just drop it in and no one will be able to tell. It'll be seamless. Let's do some biography basics then. When where was owain grindour born and what was his family situation katherine we know he was born in about 1359 into a wealthy gentry family who lived in northeast wales at the border area between england and wales around what is now wrexham and through his father, Griffith Falken II, he was a descendant of the Prince of Powys. So he comes from Welsh royal stock.

He is hereditary to Sorgath's Prince of Powys Fardog, which is the northern half of the county, and Lord of Glyndwrddwy. And through his mother, Ellen, he's also a descendant of the Princes of Dehebath, which is a regional name for the southern Welsh principalities. They're not independent anymore. They were concubined with the first. But the family still exists in all these gentry families. So he has a claim, if you like, to some royal ancestry. Through his mum, he also claims descent from Llywelyn the Great,

Llywelyn ap Iorith of Gwynedd, which is the royal house of Aberfraw. And his father died in about 1370 when Owain was a teenager. So he comes into his inheritance and has to take responsibility. Certainly what we would think of as quite young. There's a lot of names there that listeners, I say listeners, bracket me, perhaps struggle with a little bit. But these are quite established established noble Welsh families that link back to Caelan the Great that's a big claim right he's he's one of the big big names in medieval

history so he's got a pretty good family tree he's not some random bloke is he well he's certainly not some bloke off the street his blood is as blue as Welsh blood can get it's the best they've got left after Edward I executed or imprisoned the top of the tree. So this is the next level down. He's championship level royalty. He's not quite Premier League. He's in the second tier, but the standard of football is still very good. Yeah, the standard's very good, actually.

If you watch it week in, week out, the standard is very good. So he's born in 1359. Edward I of England obviously had been ruling until very early 1300s. So about half a century after the English king has smashed the Welsh. What career would you choose for yourself, Ellis, if you'd been given such a fancy upbringing in your youth? If I'd had an upbringing like that, I would put it all into some ridiculous business initiative that was never going to work. It'd be a restaurant that only sold crisps or something. Something ridiculous. I wouldn't accept that it was a bad idea and I'd constantly be being bailed out by mum and dad.

And then after five years of my crisp restaurant going badly, I'd think, OK, I'm going to be an actor now. And then I'd be a failed actor for about a decade or so and then eventually i think i just go back into the parental bosom but um from what i understand uh a wine had slightly more ambition than me well they didn't have crisp back then there was no potatoes so in fairness to him you know i mean he does he goes into a slightly unexpected career opportunity given that he's going to end up as a rebel folk hero he goes into the law which is a little bit square oh harsh well you know i'm expecting him to be burning down castles and things if you want to understand the land that you're going to own and get the best out of it and defend your position you kind of need to know the law so yeah after, after his father died, he lived with a man called David Hanmer for a while as his foster son.

He was a lawyer, David Hanmer. He was justice of the King's Bench. So Owen goes to London to study law at the Inns of Court. And he studies as a legal apprentice for the standard seven years. And as far as we know, it means he was probably in London when the 1381 Peasants Revolt happened. So make what you will of that. Does that mean he sees rebellion and what it can or can't achieve? We don't know. But he goes back to Wales in 1383 and he married David Hanmer's daughter, Marifrch David, also known more commonly as Margaret Hanmer. And they start a large family. And Owain set himself up as Lord of Saghath, which is a castle and small town in Powys, and the land he's inherited from his father as well. A very nice house and quite famously, a rather nice garden, which is praised

in poetry. He's gone off to the big city. He's got himself a good job. He's come home. He's met a nice lady. It's less Braveheart, more Hallmark Christmas advert. And his wife's name is Margaret Hammer, or you said in Welsh, was it Marit? Is that right? Yeah, not bad. Oh, not bad. That's faint praise, isn't it? All right. I'll go with Margaret then. Fine. Are they the same age or am I going to have to honk my problematic marriage klaxon? Because we have to do this quite a lot on this show. Yeah, she's 13 when they get married, we think. And he's 24. Oh, no. Okay.

Come on, mate. Just because when they get married, we don't know if that's when they necessarily consummate the marriage. So that we don't know because we don't know when their children are born. And in the end, they have about nine children that we know of. Too many is what I would argue. Yes. If he's done his law degree in London and has moved back to Wales and is married and has got children and is living in a house

with a lovely garden that's praised in poetry, we're still a few years, a couple of decades away from the rebellion. So it makes it sound like his rebellion is a midlife crisis. Because it was all going so well. Until about 1400 when he thinks, hang on, I don't want to live in a house with a garden, actually. I want more. I'm going to cast off the yoke of my English oppressors, actually.

Or why not just buy a motorbike like everyone else and grow a ponytail. Could have just got a faster horse maybe. A faster horse with stripes down the side. He's highly educated. He's been to England. He's done that seven years apprenticeship. He's fully bilingual in terms of Welsh and English

and then obviously he's going to have the Latin legalese. He can probably hobnob in French a bit if he wanted to. He's got Duolingo on his phone and he goes through it every now and then. He goes going to have the Latin legalese. He can probably hobnob in French a bit if he wanted to. He's got Duolingo on his phone and he goes through it every now and then. He goes back home to Wales with his wife and kids and he's having a nice time. And then there's quite an unusual phase next really where he's after war but not against the English but for the English. To be fair, it's not unusual for members of the Welsh gentry and Welsh princes to do this. So in his case, he enters

military service under the English king in 1384 at the English-Scottish border at Berwick-on-Tweed, which is a border town that they're always fighting over. It changes hands 13 times in the Middle Ages. And he's fighting under the Welsh military captain Gregory Syce. The next year, he's under the command of John of Gaunt, son of Edward III, again in Scotland. And in 1387 he's down all the way at the bottom in South East England, where he's engaged in the defeat of the Franco-Spanish Flemish fleet off the coast of Kent. So he gets around. Later that year, his father-in-law, David Hanmer, who'd been knighted that year, so Sir David by now, dies. And so Owain goes back to Wales. I've been to Berwick-on-Tweed. It's all right. I'm not sure I'd go to war over it.

Thirteen times. It had a costa from what I remember. The only place I've ever been where I had a cheeseburger and they buttered the bun, which is my abiding memory. I don't know why they did that. So he's learning war, isn't he? He's not just a soldier. He's presumably learning tactics. Maybe he's learning the English weaknesses from the inside. Maybe he's an inside man. A mole. Yeah. But having now surely mastered the art of war, does he now launch his rebellion, Catherine?

Come on, this is what the people want. No, for a range of reasons. He's got military duties calming down a bit. The English King Richard II, for example, is creating internal problems. So Owain spends about a decade in Wales having a nice time. He seems to have been quite popular. The Welsh Bard Iolo Roch wrote a poem,

or a quayth, celebrating his hospitality, his generosity, the nobility and generosity of his wife and the safety of his land. It's a bit of a contrast to the rebellious military man sounding quite domestic again. OK, so we can hear some lines from the poem by the Bard. These are not continuous lines. These are different sentences we've lifted out. The best bits, really, just to tell us a bit more about Owain's house and garden. So, Ellis, take it away. just to tell us a bit more about Owain's house and garden.

So, Ellis, take it away. Yes, absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Oh, lovely! He does make Sycharstan absolutely brilliant I suppose he's a poet so that's his job

In essence Yologoch 600 years ago is effectively writing a little bit of copy for the Welsh Tourist Board saying it's great

no one starves no one goes thirsty come on down it's absolutely brilliant thank you owain has he been commissioned by owain to say this stuff or is this a sort of objective study of what's going on it's not objective in that these kinds of poets write things that their patrons generally want to hear sometimes they don't and they get kicked out but yeah he's writing what he knows owain would like to hear him say about his lovely home and he says that also owain's got the best of wives so margaret's

is obviously also impressive too i mean i have to say listeners have tuned in for the story of a great heroic rebel and so far it's very sort of live laugh love it's very inspirational instagram posts poem actually ends which does mean and he's got the best wife. I mean, that's basically literally what it says. And don't you forget his wife, she's fit,

she's a real laugh. Don't get me wrong, she's an absolutely cracking wife. It's very Partridge. Surely now, Catherine, finally, can we have some drama? A bit of turmoil, a bit of a nemesis perhaps? You can have some. It picks up a bit.

The late 1390s saw some events that began to push Owen towards rebellion. Richard II of England was deposed in 1399 after two years of being just generally awful. And Henry Bolingbroke was crowned King Henry IV in his place. We get a change of dynasty. Owain's neighbour, Lord Grave Ruthyn, seized some of his land. And so Owain appealed to the English Parliament, basically complaining to them because at this time Parliament functions as a law court. But his petition was ignored. So it's complaining about land that really kicks things off. His neighbour has stolen his land, this Lord Grader Ruthyn.

The problem is that Ruthyn is a friend of the new king, Henry IV, and Ruthyn sets about trying to make Owain look bad. It seems like the kind of dispute that would get sorted out on daytime telly by, what's that man, is it Dom Littlewood? The bald guy in the harrington jacket yeah so you're telling me that he's built something over there without getting planning permission from the council and you're gonna go to war ellis i mean you're a nice guy obviously but if you were an evil bastard how would you go about sabotaging someone's career and life

yeah stealing someone's land is as good a way as any. If you want to yolo go chit and write another poem, you could maybe write a stanza that criticises his wife saying, I don't know what I was saying in the last poem. She's actually ugly. She's rubbish. Get over her. Great poems like that where people write insults about each other's genitals. Oh.

Could be a whole other episode. David Ap Gwilym, the Welsh poet from this, round about this period, I suppose he's our Chaucer, probably. I have a book of his poetry and it is very, very sexual, Greg.

I mean, good grief. He loved to write poems about private parts. He loved it. But still, it makes a tremendous gift for maybe your father-in-law or maybe your boss. The only line I remember is something like his puking, merry prick, spitting love soap or something.

And I read that and I was like, come on, mate. Chill out! Okay, so we have Lord Grey de Rothin. You pronounced it Rithin, is that right, Ellis? Rithin is how I would pronounce the town, yeah. It's a town in North Wales. Lovely, okay. So we've got Lord Grey de Rithin. He really goes to town on trying

to sabotage Owain's career, doesn't he? He deliberately provokes him. Yeah, in 1400 Grey waits until it's too late toage Owain's career, doesn't he? He deliberately provokes him. Yeah. In 1400, Grey waits until it's too late to tell Owain about a royal command to send troops to the Scottish border for military service. And because Owain doesn't do this in time, all the people in London court circles basically got told

that Owain was therefore a traitor. So he withholds the message. He doesn't tell Owain he's meant to be doing this until it's too late. And then everyone in England is like, oh, this guy, he's no longer loyal to England. The medieval version of, it went in my junk mail, I'm so sorry. I think we can finally say goodbye to the chill vibes of the late 1300s. The English king has been deposed, Richard II.

He obviously dies in prison or is murdered. We've got a new king, Henry IV. the second he obviously dies in prison or is murdered we've got a new king henry the fourth and we get a big actual bit of rebellion in chester which is a border town in 1400 and this finally prompts our lovely rebellion a long bloody last catherine can we finally say owain glendore welsh rebel yeah i think you can on the 16th of september 1400 owain formally assumed his ancestral title so we see him calling himself Prince of Powys. And he and his followers gather near the River Dee, which is up near Chester, to proclaim him as Prince of Wales. This threatened to undo Edward I's conquest of Wales

in the early 1280s, and declared that it was Owain's, not Henry IV's son, Prince Henry, who was the true successor to the Princes of Wales. So his argument with the Parliament over this legal dispute has now developed into something much bigger. Owain and some of his followers launched an assault on Lord Grey and pushed back against King Henry IV. And the revolt began to grow. So it spirals from there. It's exciting at last. Hooray. But we should say

historians do caution that owain hasn't started this rebellion he's basically spotted one already brewing and gone well that looks fun uh yeah there's plenty of discontent that he can use because people have been unhappy about various aspects of english rule for a while okay prince of powess is his name which is a pretty cool name uh i mean ellis if you got to be knighted or whatever what would your honorific title be well it's a duke of carmarthen that would be quite good that's nice earl carmarthen that sounds like a t be great though letterhead you could have a little stationary with earl of carmarthen on the top his grace oh his grace now that i do like his grace you have to be a duke to be his grace i'm not sure do you okay

so we have owain glendore welsh rebel he has joined a rebellion he very quickly becomes the figurehead because of his power his influence his lineage but also of course he's a battle-hardened soldier he knows what he's doing do we now see people flocking towards the cause we do see owain gaining support mostly in northern and central Wales and so Henry IV of England appoints Henry Hotspur Percy to take back control. Oh no! Then there were a series of incidents so Owain's cousins Gwynneaptuda and Rhysaptuda tricked their way into Conwy Castle and held it for two months and then Owain wins a battle

in Plynlimmon near the present day Ceredigion Powys border and Henry IV retaliates by attacking the Cistercian Monastery of Strata Florida which is in mid Wales as he thought the monks there were sympathetic to Owain

the monastery was looted the monks kicked out and the abbey became a military base for Henry for a while, but Henry eventually retreated. It's all kicking off, and the monks are getting involved, they're getting turfed out. You know it's bad when the monks are getting involved. Can I ask Catherine a question? Yes. From what I understand, around this time, Wales isn't a country as we would recognise it. It's a country made up of competing kingdoms, isn't it, and different princes.

Well, by the time we're talking about 1400, it isn't that anymore. It used to be a place made up of independent principalities. So you had Gwynedd and you had Deheabath and you had some lesser ones that kind of got swallowed. And then throughout the course of the 12th and 13th centuries, the King of England said to some of his lords, you can go and conquer bits of Wales. And if you do, you have a degree of autonomy. So that area is known as the March of Wales. And they talk about the law of the march, so a bit of freedom there. And they mostly conquer south and bits of mid Wales. And what's left that's independent, pure Oualiae, pure Wales, is Gwynedd.

And that's the bit that Edward I conquers in 1282-3. And when he conquers it, that's where he institutes the English law and puts his own men in, like Grey of Rhythyn's ancestors. So by the time we get to the period of O'Angland, what you've got is a Wales,

which 50% of it still has the legacy of Marcher law and Marcher rule. And then the northern half is more subject to the laws the Crown has instituted. So it's a jigsaw of different kinds of authority. So it's not necessarily a singular nation, but there is obviously shared language and shared heritage and culture. So uniting Welshmen together and Welsh women together is doable for Owain. Catherine, you mentioned a couple of names that are quite fun names from history. You mentioned Aguilin Ap Tudor and Rhys Ap Tudor.

Now, obviously, listeners will go, hang on a minute, Tudors? I've heard of Tudors. These are early Tudors, prototype Tudors. We haven't quite got to the glamorous ones yet. But they're cousins of Owain. And you've also mentioned, of course, the fact that they've stolen a castle through trickery. So, Ellis, first question. How would you sneak into a castle and steal it? First off,

you knock on the door. Okay, so you're going in the front door. You're going to charm your way in. Okay. Front door. I've clearly got an awful lot of stuff in my jacket. So, down comes the drawbridge. The guard says, what do you want? And I say, listen, there's a bloke in a pub over there. He's selling some absolutely fantastic stuff, and it's so cheap.

So can I just come in? No, no, no, no. I don't want to open my jacket in case it starts to drain because it's Wales, and then the goods might get wet. So if you could just let me in, and then I can show you when I'm in the middle of the castle next to the big king. That's all I want. And then wallop. Like something out of a Steve Martin film,

the guard goes, yeah, yeah, fine, sure. No problem. He turns around, bang on the head. He's concussed. Bang, we're in. Like a sort of very violent Avon lady. That's always how I thought of you anyway, to be honest.

And you also mentioned Hotspur. I'm a Tottenham Hotspur fan in terms of football. We are the only football club named after a Shakespeare character. And Henry Hotspur, or Harry Hotspur as he's known, is this great medieval warrior. Obviously, he's pro-England, part of the Percy family up in Northumbria, a very powerful dynasty. We've got the Tudors as well. They're on Owen's side. powerful dynasty we've got the tudors as well they're on owen's side and then in 1402 we have the english parliament issuing laws called the penal laws against wales unless you can probably

guess how the welsh respond to this yeah they say laws penal what have our penises got to do with it why are you legislating against welsh penises again that's where the poetry came from yeah i mean obviously this really just instigates more rebellion this drives again. That's where the poetry came from. Yeah, I mean, obviously, this really just instigates more rebellion. This drives more Welsh people to the cause. In 1402, Owain has a good year. He captures his nemesis, Lord Gray the Riffin. He holds him hostage for nearly a year. And then he manages to get a big old ransom from King Henry IV. So he's made some money and then he grabs a second hostage. Catherine, who is this guy? In June of 1402, he defeats the English force led by Sir Edmund Mortimer at the Battle of Brynglas and he captures Mortimer. And despite a wine offering to release

him for another large ransom, Henry IV refused to pay for Mortimer, which might have been a bit insulting for him, probably because Mortimer's nephew had an even better claim to the English throne than Henry himself did, so it wasn't in his interest to help out. Is that Brynglas near Newport where the Brynglas tunnel is? Because I associate that tunnel with congestion on the way to Cardiff and being late for gigs. Now I'm going to associate it with the last great Welsh rebellion against the English. It's a brink glass in mid Wales, isn't it?

Oh, okay. But if it makes you feel better because it's a hideous tunnel, think about anything historical to get you through. And presumably very easy to capture someone if they're stuck in traffic. Actually, you could stop an English invasion just by parking two broken down cars in those tunnels and that'd be it. It's a 50 mile an hour zone. It just slows all rebellions down to a crawl.

So Owen captures Sir Edmund Mortimer, tries to ransom him back. The king's like, nah, you're all right. Poor Edmund. That's a real blow to the self-esteem. That's my nightmare. I don't have enough of a sense of entitlement to think that if I were to be held hostage,

anyone would stump up any cash. It's one of my strange anxiety dreams. I'm held hostage and people go, yeah, that's fine. Yeah, John Roberts could do the show on Five Live on his own. So what do you think Edmund does? Does he agree to go in with a wine? He does. Does he?

He does. I guess his ego is stung, right? He must be like, well, screw him then. Fine. I'll join the Welsh Rebellion. So he does. He joins forces with Owain. Michael Owen, move into Man United. So Edmund marries into Owain's family, which seals the deal. And 1402 is also the year where we get the international Welsh Rebellion. We're getting some foreign aid coming in. Welsh rebellion. We're getting some foreign aid coming in. The French and Bretons have arrived. They're on Team Owain, obviously. Any excuse to bash the English, of course. But we also get an influx of Welsh expats as well, don't we, Catherine? Yeah, we do. So by the next year, 1403, things are ramping up because Welsh labourers, as you say, and craftsmen are abandoning their English employers

and returning to Wales. And there are even reports of Welsh students at Oxford University leaving their studies to come back and join Owain. And hundreds of Welsh archers leave English service to join the rebellion too. And of course, they're well-trained because they've been fighting in English campaigns against France and Scotland. So the Hundred Years' War, they've been busy in the English armies there. So lots of experience, and now they're on Owain's side. Ie, yn ystod y 100 mlynedd yn ystod y war, maen nhw wedi bod yn ymarferol yn yr Armei'r Ungell yno. Felly, llawer o brofiad, ac nawr maen nhw ar ddwy wain. more so than anyone else, really.

One of the reasons I think that is, and I don't know if you agree, is that Wales as an independent nation under Owen was recognised by the French, wasn't it? Yes. Did the Scots recognise Wales as an independent country or was it just the French? Not really. But the thing is that the French do make treaties with Welsh princes when Wales is independent as well. So this isn't a new thing at all. Ah.

Yeah. So if you're kind of thinking, well, it's because they're more on the international stage and that's why Irvine perhaps is a more convincing leader of a rebellion that might get somewhere. If the support of the French is important, then it's been important before. Treaties have been signed and they don't lead to anything. The French use it because, of course,

Wales being right next to England can be a pain in the neck for England. Yeah, it's great, isn't it? It's very handy for them. Yay! But it doesn't mean they necessarily believe in what they're going for. They're just using them because they're handy. But also, in French, Wales is pays de gaulle, which sounds a bit like Gauls.

So maybe they're just like, yeah, these are our people. That's basically us. They look a bit like us. It's the same. The food is worse, but I can live with that. So you've got lots of Welsh people leaving their jobs to go and join the welsh rebellion i mean it's a quite awkward hr exit interview isn't it and why are you leaving this job um no reason owain has picked up then his foreign allies he's got loads of welsh expats he's got people flocking to the cause. And he's also teaming up with the powerful English Percy clan.

They have defected. So Harry Hotspur, who I mentioned before, he has joined Team Owain. He's come on board alongside Sir Edmund Mortimer. This is again because Henry IV has fallen out with the Percys. They refuse to pay a ransom. So, Ellis, what do you think it does for Owain's campaign to have this brilliant, famous, legendary hero, Harry Hotspur, the great warrior, the man who charges into battle so renowned that he gets the nickname Hotspur because he's so hot in the saddle? What do you think it does for Owain? Well, to me, it sounds like Spurs' mascot and that he should be shaking hands with an 11-year-old boy from North London before Tottenham play.

And the Percy clan don't sound very scary. If he's got Harry Hotspur on his side, then clearly he thinks, well, this is on because there have been these mini rebellions in the past that have never worked. But once he's got Harry Hotspur on his side, he must be thinking, yeah, OK, I quite fancy this. Yeah, absolutely.

I know that you're a big uh football watcher and you know full well what happens when spurs get their hopes up what they get overwhelmed in midfield he is immediately killed is what happens so this great hero this great chivalric legend the man made famous by shakespeare turns up and immediately is slaughtered at the battle of shrewsbury in 1403 so classic spurs spurs have been Spursy for 600 years. Our club identity was set in the battlefields of England long ago. So the Percy family are actually very powerful and they join up with Owain despite Harry Hotspur being mullered.

The rest of the family still come on board. And in 1404, we get Owain holding court at Harlech. And then he calls his first parliament, the Parliament of All Wales, at Macunliffe. And he's crowned Prince of Wales. He announces a bold new political manifesto. Can you tell us what it is? He does. It's sort of his vision for a new Wales as an independent state with a parliament of its own,

a separate Welsh church so it doesn't have to owe any allegiance or obligations to Canterbury, and he would establish two national universities, one in South Wales and one in North Wales. He also proposed a return to traditional laws, the Cwfrithiel, and have that be the law that the Welsh have to follow. Is that Hywel Dda's laws? Yes. Aren't the Welsh laws as codified by Hywel Dda, Hywel the Good, aren't they more egalitarian than their English equivalent? And aren't women more recognised than in English law? Essentially, yes, they are. There are aspects of them that are quite different and don't necessarily give, say, the same protections. But yeah, I think they are more equitable. So it's like a status-based system

where you can get reparation for crimes committed against you. So you can get blood money paid, or called galanas, where you pay someone a certain amount for particular injuries depending upon their social standing. So if you injure somebody wealthier, it's going to cost you more. The Galanas of the King of Deheba, for example, was set at an impossibly long line of impossibly perfect cattle, i.e. an amount you could never pay.

Because Welsh law, quite often, you don't pay in money, you pay in cows. And theft and robbery were penalised very strongly, though there were some interesting loopholes. So if you were a hungry man who would pass at least three towns without receiving a meal, then you couldn't be punished for stealing food. So theft is a crime, but at the same time, for some people it might be a necessity. It's also a law that's kinder to women.

They're treated very differently from men in English law, but it is also stricter against foreigners. So they can't naturalise any earlier than the fourth generation. They are seen socially somewhere as between serfs and the enslaved. It's not going to be a perfect set of laws by any means. One of the laws says that if a woman found her husband in bed with someone else, she's entitled to payment. So you get compensation. And then if he does it again, you get double the compensation. And then third time around, you get to divorce him. If it's happened three times, I would say that his heart is not in that relationship. Obviously, these are not sort of feminist utopia laws. We are talking about medieval history. So

there were laws saying you could beat your wife. So it's not all lovely. So we have here Owain trying to introduce universities. That's interesting. He's trying to bring forward education, and he's also trying to bring back the old ways, the old laws, reunify the kingdom. It's a bold manifesto that's quite progressive, and in other ways, it's also looking backwards towards Wales's independent past, isn't it? Yeah, resurrecting what's gone. mean things like the idea of having the university is really interesting because that isn't something of course that happens until 1822 when you get Lampeter as the first Welsh university so to have separate education where people in Wales usually go to Oxford would be really really novel. We've had 1402, very busy year, 1403 even more so,

but 1405, oh, that's where everything really kicks off. Catherine, can we have some of the highlights of 1405, please? In February 1405, Owen negotiated something called the tripartite indenture with Edmund Mortimer and Harry Hotspur's dad, also called Henry Percy. All called Henry Percy in that family. Even the women. So the tripartite indenture divides England and Wales between the trio. Wales would extend to the River Severn and the Mersey and would include most of Cheshire, Shropshire and Herefordshire.

The Mortimers were going to take all of southern and western England, whereas the Percys, who were a northern family anyway, would take the north of England. So Owen negotiated with other countries too. So he was in talks with the Lords of Ireland, though those were unsuccessful. And also the French and Bretons, as we said, he got on better with them.

So he's got a plan, a vision for how things are going to be divvied up. Ellis, if you're going to have your own tripartite indenture and split up England and Wales into three chunks, which chunk are you bagsying? I'd love the north of England. I would get Wales to stretch over as far as Hull and then Newcastle in the north, so it would be a very different shape.

I'd have Leeds as part of Wales, no problem at all. And they'd be lucky to join. And they'd be lucky to join. That's it, Catherine. You tell them. The Yorkshire independence movement haven't thought of that, have they? They haven't thought of joining Wales. That's a bold new strategy.

I'd have to reclaim York, where I studied for four years, not least because it's got a chocolate factory, and that's what I'm looking for. I just want ongoing chocolate deliveries to my house. And some of the best pubs in Europe. So many pubs. It's a lovely, lovely city. All right, great. Okay, so Leeds is now Europe. So many pubs. It's a lovely, lovely city. All right, great.

Okay, so Leeds is now Welsh. Congratulations, Leeds. But I think one of the interesting things about the tripartite indenture, you get this, I get that, he gets that. We go our separate ways. It's like the end of a heist. Everyone in the gang gets their cut of the loot. But there's also a touch of old Merlin magic in some of the negotiations.

There is. And to be fair, you get this throughout medieval British history. It's amazing how many prophecies and magical stories they come up with to weave into what they think are rational historical explanations. Apparently, the tripartite indenture was building upon mythological precedent. Stories of three men invoking a prophecy and the boundaries of Wales were defined according to what stories about Merlin said. So Owain also became identified with the prophetic tradition of a Welsh deliverer known as the Mab de Rogon which is a prophecy that foretold the expulsion of the Saxons from Britain and the restoration of Welsh control and it's a title that is resurrected time and again and applied to Welsh figures who look like they might kick out the English.

Well, Merlin is a Carmarthen boy. My school was named after Merlin. Yeah, the Priory Oak Tree in Carmarthen, now a roundabout, was the subject of one of his prophecies. When Merlin's tree shall tumble down, then shall fall Carmarthen Town. And I think they turned into a roundabout in the late 70s, I think it was. I could be wrong on that. Didn't they keep the bit of the tree and they put it behind a little bit of fencing next to the roundabout?

Yeah, a little bit of fencing. And then now it is in a glass case in St Peter's Hall, I think. But when they said, when Merlin's tree shall tumble down, then shall fall command town, they did that. And 10 years later, we had bad floods. So I'll leave that with you. But I mean, I should probably base

slightly less of my identity on being from the same town as Merlin, a folkloric legend. But still, what can you say? You get what you're given. Absolutely. So 1405 is busy enough because you've got the Tripartite Indenture, which is obviously a huge political deal to split the kingdoms three ways. But it's also

known as the Year of the French. I'm half French. I'm very pleased about this, which I'm assuming means everyone is just watching Call My Agent on Netflix and eating brie. True, Catherine? Tragically not, no. It's about a formal treaty. And this treaty promised French aid to Owain and the Welsh. And in 1405, there was pressure against the English from the French, both on the continent, as the French army invaded English-held Aquitaine. The background to this is the Hundred Years' War is still going on in fits and starts. And from Wales, there was pressure as the French landed at Milford Haven

and marched across Wales into Worcestershire. And finally, the French and Welsh together in one army took up positions against the English armies and they faced off against each other. Here we go. This is it. The big climactic battle scene. This is our Helms Deep.

This is our Avengers Endgame. This is how the movie ends. Two huge armies facing off against each other. And it's going to be epic. Catherine, tell me it's epic. No, unfortunately not. There was no major action for eight days. And then for no clear confirmed reason, they retreated.

I could guarantee it was because of rain. Yeah, probably. I can 100% guarantee it was too wet and they thought oh let's just let's just wait until june this is it's not gonna work is it i keep slipping in my chain mail it's oh it's a real downer i can see why hollywood has not made this movie now catherine because there's an awful lot of time where he's just gardening with his wife and then there's quite a lot of time where he's sort of pro his wife. And then there's quite a lot of time where he's sort of pro-English. And now there's quite a lot of time where the huge battle doesn't really happen. And a lot of paperwork and that never looks fun on screen, let's be honest. True. Too much admin. Yeah. But there is still

more to come in 1405. I promised it was a busy year. Aside from the battle that never was, we've got several Welsh defeats happening, haven't we? And other things as well. We do. We've got France withdrawing from Wales and the death of Owen's brother. And then the English changed their strategy as well under the organisation of Prince Henry. That's the future Henry V, Victor of Agincourt. So instead of dramatic battles, he favoured cutting off trade and supply routes to the Welsh. A few castles in Wales still remained under English control, and those were used as bases for

halting the supply of food, the supply of weapons and anything the Welsh needed. Owain's rebel soldiers achieved victories over the English forces as far as Birmingham however, so they weren't completely stopped, but the English were advancing in Wales. The English tactics began to see results by 1407 when Owain's Aberystwyth Castle surrendered while he was away fighting, and in 1409, Harlech Castle also surrendered. Ah, it's all falling apart. It started so well, Alice, and then Harlech's gone. And it's not the only painful loss, really, Catherine,

because we also lose another cast member in Sir Edmund Mortimer, and then also Owain's family as well. Yeah, his wife is imprisoned, as are two of their daughters, lose another cast member in Sir Edmund Mortimer and then also Owen's family as well. Yeah his wife is imprisoned as are two of their daughters and three of Mortimer's granddaughters they're taken to the Tower of London and they all die there over the course of the next five to six years. Some lovely Margaret the best of wives she dies in the Tower of London. Yeah yeah god no wonder i've got a chip on my shoulder it goes back 600 years this feels like such a huge disappointment really because there'd been a point where maybe it was on maybe it was doable you know that maybe there had been a chance but now the momentum has moved against him his

wife and children have been captured edmund mortimer's dead and this is because henry v is strategically fighting a guerrilla war, right? He's cutting off supplies. He's fighting smart. He is. And Henry, of course, is growing up learning all the time. So in some respects, he's only getting better. Oh, no.

He's like an AI. I find it interesting that rather than stay at the border and consolidate in what he had, he moves as far as Birmingham. I mean, wouldn't that have been a stretch on his horses? Although maybe he was just desperate to capture Birmingham. Nice place, bouldering's great, good shopping. Yeah, great curry houses. A couple of good comedy clubs. Yeah. But also, I suppose the Percys are coming down from the north, aren't they? So maybe it's a pincer movement. But yeah, it's all gone wrong. When his wife and children are captured, Catherine, does Owen launch a Liam Neeson style, get style get them back i will find you i will kill you i will get back my wife and kids the sort of thing that would work really

well at the end of a film you mean yeah please well he loses his home and he's actively hunted he continues the rebellion particularly to avenge obviously what's happened to his wife and in 1410 a raid into shropshire took many english lives but also ended with many leading rebels being captured so some successes and some losses in 1412 owain captured a leading welsh supporter of king henry the fourth that's david gam crooked david and later ransomed him this was the last time though that owain is seen alive by his enemies and nothing certain is known of him after 1412.

1412, he vanishes into the mists of time. The myth is that he never died, Greg. Like Elvis. Yeah, because Elvis is an anagram of lives, which means that he's still alive. So the myth, as I understand it, is that because an anagram of lives, which means that he's still alive. So the myth, as I understand it, is that because they never found a body, that he never died and he's waiting and he's in some cave in Capel Dewi or Llechryd or something.

Sounds legit, yeah. Yeah, and he's waiting for when Wales is in crisis and he's going to come back and save us. That's the myth. How much in crisis do we have to be, by the way? Yeah, yeah. We've had quite a few crises. Do you want to watch the news, Owen? He's had numerous opportunities, I think, to come back and save Wales in times of crisis.

So I am beginning to lose hope that he's still alive. Oh, no. Yeah. Oh, I'm so sorry. Merlin's a no-show as well He needs to pull his finger out as well Come on Merlin I would love to see O'Wanglandore

21st century wanderer Just stumbling around trying to figure out the wifi password What is Spotify? He's walking into Superdrug with a big sword Staff are terrified I suppose we should finish really catherine in terms of the political history owain vanishes in 1412 in 1413 obviously henry the fourth dies and his son the hugely talented soldier henry the fifth takes over and henry the fifth he takes

a slightly conciliatory approach to wales doesn't he? Rather than coming down hard and burning it all, he actually sort of goes, all right, fair play. You fought well. Let's sort this out once and for all. So is this the end of the rebellion? He offers the leaders pardons. Obviously, the main leader would be Owain, and he doesn't respond to any of these offers because we don't know where he is. So the mythology of him starts to develop. Where is he? We don't know where he's gone. And so we get lots of folk tales. The rebellion itself has petered out. Lots of the so the mythology of him starts to develop you know where is he we don't know where he's gone and so we get lots of folk tales the rebellion itself has petered out lots of the important people are sort of absorbed back into the english fold but as for owain there are stories that he's disguising himself during the rebellion and that after 1412 he then goes on to live in peace for

the rest of his life but he becomes a mythical hero figure. This is said that he's this saviour waiting to return to liberate people. I mean, this doesn't by and large happen straight away. And these are ideas that develop a lot later on, particularly the pickup after the 1800s, when there's a greater interest in using medieval Welsh history in the development of Welsh nationalism generally. So Ewang Lindoor, it's a brilliant story. He's clearly a hugely fascinating figure, but it's a story of what could have been,

but sadly never was really. It's so close yet so far. And after that, Wales falls back under the English yoke. A little bit later on, the end of the 1400s, you get Henry VII, Henry Tudor, a Welshman, becomes King of England. So Wales does win in the end, Ellis. Maybe he'll come back and fill in for Gareth Bale if Gareth Bale ever gets injured.

Maybe he'll pop up on the right wing. He pulls his hamstring again. Yeah, exactly. We'll have a 600-year-old up front. The Nuance Window! Well, it's time now for The Nuance Window. This is where our expert, Dr Catherine, has two minutes to tell us something we need to know

about the great Oein Glyndwr. Catherine, without much further ado, please launch into the nuance window. Okay. This comes from my interest in saints' cults and pilgrimages. So we've already said a bit today about the idea that he was the Mabdurog on this prophecy about a man who would come back and save Wales.

And lots of political figures are turned into saints in this period, particularly if they stand for a cause. So what's interesting, strangely enough, with Owen is that this didn't quite happen. Though in the 15th century, somebody realised maybe he'd be a really good candidate for a cult. So his potential as a cultic figure was recognised by a writer called John Rouse, who is most famously known for writing Richard III was good and then Richard III was bad. And he's writing in the 1480s. And he alleged that Owain possessed a magic stone that could make him invisible. And the stone, Rouse alleged, once belonged to Richard, Earl of Arundel,

who was cruelly beheaded by King Richard II. Now, the Earl of Arundel was popular in the 15th century for his opposition to the English crowns. In chronicles of the period, he is portrayed as a saint, and his tomb in London is the focus of a brief cult that flourishes for a little while, about seven years after his death. And it's interesting that Rouse links Owain with him, because it's kind of the seed of the idea of developing him as a cultic figure who magically disappeared because he owned the magic stone of another rebel against the crown wow magic stone ellis are you back on board people were thick back then i just think i would be the first cynic if i'd been around in the 1400s. I'd have been the one who said, a magic stone.

Are we all? We're all buying into it. Yeah. Okay. Fine. Okay. I'm not going to stand down. If you think there's a magic stone that can make someone invisible, fine.

I'll believe you. Just to make my life easier. So what do you know now? It's time now for the So what do you know now? This is a quickfire quiz for our comedian Ellis James to see how much he has learned. How are you with exams, Ellis? I mean, you said that your master's degree was stressful. Yeah, it was the dissertation that made me cry every day for a month. So I don't know, quietly confident, let's say. OK, well, here we go. Question one.

In which decade was Owain Glyndwr born? 1359. Oh, hello. Straight in with the year. Question two. Who is Owain Glyndwr's wife? Mared, Margaret, the best wife possible. Absolutely.

Question three. Owain was praised in a poem by which Welsh lord and celebrated bard? Jologoch. It was Jologoch. Which means Yolo the Red. Yeah. Question four. Which neighbour seized Owain's land and withheld royal orders to make him look like a traitor?

Oh, Earl Grey de Rithyn. It was. Question five. In 1401, Owain's Tudor cousins tricked their way into and held which castle for a couple of months? Conwy Castle. It was Conwy Castle. Question six. In 1402, Owain captured which English lord at the Battle of Bryn Glas?

Mortimer. It is. It's Edmund Mortimer. Question seven. You're doing really well. In Welsh law, what was the name of the blood money compensation system? We mentioned this briefly, based on victim status. Oh, Galanas.

It is Galanas. Well done. Question eight. In February 1405, what did Owain negotiate with Edmund Mortimer and Henry Percy, which would divide up England and Wales between them? Is that the Tripartite Treaty? It is. Tripartite indenture.

Question nine. Owen Glyndwr makes an appearance in which Shakespeare play? Henry IV Part I. It is. So you're on nine out of ten. This to make you the Earl of Carmarthen. Perfect score. Here we go.

Question ten. In what year was Owen last seen alive by his enemies? 1412. Ellis James. Perfect round. perfect Welshman. That's so good for my brand. Absolutely delighted with that. I'm delighted for you.

And obviously, thank you, Catherine, for sharing all the knowledge so that Ellis could become the leader of the Welsh Rebellion, right? You're going to be down there on Monday morning, getting your flag out, getting your magic stone big sword claiming leads listeners if you fancy more tales of folk heroes from history why not check out our episodes on the irish pirate queen gronya or mali or the 18th century celebrity thief jack shepherd if you want

to know more about the 15th century you can listen to the joan of arc episode of course and remember if you've had a laugh and learned some stuff please share the podcast with your friends leave a review online do all the things you're meant to do with podcasts and of course subscribe to you're dead to me on bbc sounds so you never miss an episode all that's left for me really is to say a huge thank you to my guests in history corner we've had the brilliant welsh history whiz dr catherine herlock from Manchester Metropolitan University. Thank you, Catherine. Oh, you're very welcome. It's been great fun. And in Comedy Corner, we've had the excellent Ellis James. Thank you, Ellis.

Thank you very much for having me. I loved that. Well, to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we sneak past the guards and rummage around an entirely different story from history with two more amusing accomplices. But for now, I'm off to go and legally change my name to Harry Hotspur. Come on, you Spurs. Bye. but for now, I'm off to go and legally change my name to Harry Hotspur. Come on, you Spurs! Bye! Your Dead to Me was a production by The Athletic for BBC Radio 4. The research was by Kieri Price, the script was by Evan the Goose, Kieri Price and me,

the project manager was Saifah Mio, and the edit producer was Cornelius Mendes. That's the moment it hit me. I'm like, oh my gosh, I think a cult i used to think to myself these people are mad but until i realized that i'm mad as well i'm paris lees and this is the flip side from bbc radio 4 in each episode i tell two stories from opposite sides of the coin and use science to ask questions about elements of the human experience that we sometimes take for granted. I know that we're genetically related, but in my mind I don't have the feeling that we are necessarily kin.

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