You're Dead to Me - Philippe, Duc d’Orléans: in the shadow of the Sun King

Episode Date: February 13, 2026

Greg Jenner is joined in 17th-century France by Dr Jonathan Spangler and comedian Tom Allen to learn all about Philippe, Duc d’Orléans, Louis XIV’s younger brother. King Louis XIV is one of the most famous monarchs in French history: the man who built and presided over the glittering court at Versailles, established himself as an absolute ruler, and whose 72-year reign is still the longest in European history. But what about his younger brother, Philippe? Who was the man who grew up and lived in the shadow of the Sun King? Raised to defer to his brother at all costs, his promising military career was cut short when it seemed like he might outshine Louis. When all eyes were on him as heir to the throne, he would wear dresses to provoke shock at courtly balls. He balanced his marriage to his witty German wife, Liselotte, with a decades-long relationship with his aristocratic male lover, the Chevalier de Lorraine – and other men of the court. And he maintained an image as a louche and irresponsible courtier while increasing his personal wealth through clever financial management. This episode explores the complexities and contradictions of Philippe’s life, and examines the difficult position of second sons in royal history.If you’re a fan of royal sibling rivalries, the gossip and glamour of the French court, and queer history, you’ll love our episode on Philippe, Duc d’Orléans.If you want more fascinating French royals, listen to our episodes on Catherine de Medici and Marie Antoinette. And for more LGBTQ+ history, check out our episodes on heretical lesbian nun Benedetta Carlini and the Bloomsbury Group.You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past.Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Emma Mitchell Written by: Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Dr Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Gill Huggett Senior Producer: Dr Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If there was a big rent button that would just demolish the internet, I would smash that button with my forehead. From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me,

the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are slipping into our ballgowns and sauntering over to 17th century France to learn all about Louis XIV, less famous but more fabulous brother, Philippe Duke de Orleans. And to help us, we have two very special guests.

In History Corner, he's a senior lecturer in History, at Manchester Metropolitan University where he specialises in the aristocracy of early modern France and its neighbours. Luckily for us, he's also an expert on royal courts and is the author of Monsieur. Second Sons in the monarchy of France. It's Dr Jonathan Spangler. Welcome, Jonathan.

Hello, thanks. It's great to be here today. Delighted to have you here and in Comedy Corner. He's a top-class comedian, writer and presenter. You'll know him from loads of comedy TV shows as well as from Bake Off and Extra Slice, The Apprentice You're fired. Maybe you've read his hilarious memoirs, No Shame, and Too Much?

Or perhaps you've listened to one of his podcasts, like-minded friends and pottering. It's Tom Allen. Welcome to the show, Tom. Oh, Greg, thank you for that lovely welcome. I'm so excited to be here, especially with Jonathan, whose speciality is exactly what I'm interested in, second sons in aristocracies across northern Europe. Actually, any kind of aristocratic life, I think, because I've always fancied myself as an aristocrat. Oh, really? Yeah, which is unfortunate considering I went to a comprehensive school in Bromley. But much to my family and friends chagrin chagrin, I've often tried to pretend I'm an aristocrat and being very quickly knocked down. Maybe that'll change today.

I mean, you dress beautifully. So I think you certainly, you certainly pass master on the looks. They're going out on the BBC, aren't we? We are. Some of us like to keep standards on this broadcasting corporation. So I think I would like it if all Radio 4 presenters and announcers still wore a dinner jacket. Right. I'm so sorry. I didn't bring mine. Spoil it for the listener, I was going to say.

I'm so glad you've stuck to that tradition. And I'm in a ball gown. Tom, are you a history lover? Do you enjoy history? I have always loved history. I almost did it at university, but then rather precociously. Like a second son of any French aristocrat decided I didn't. need it. I said it didn't go, but I nearly, I went to interview at Clare College in Cambridge.

Oh. Of course applied there because I thought it was the nicest building, as any fool would, and applied for a very popular course there and did not know what I was doing and was very roundly rejected. But, and that sort of put me off a bit. And so I think I decided to pursue showbiz instead, which I think probably was the right thing. I'm not that serious.

But I love, I love, I love any kind of history. And I like, we've already been talking actually, Jonathan and I. about favourite historical films. And mine being the madness of King George. And mine. Oh, fantastic. It's your favourite? It really is.

It is a brilliant movie. Just that attention to detail. Yeah, very much. The best line, can I say? Yeah. Is when Rupert, Everett, I think, at the very beginning, says, oh, it appears I'm Bishop of Osnabrook. It's a funny what one is.

Yes, yes. So, what do you know? This is the So What Do You Know? This is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, know about today's subject and Philippe is perhaps best known for lavish dramas about his brother, Louis, King Louis. In the film A Little Chaos, Philippe is played by a suave, Stanley Tucci. In The Man in the Iron Mask, he and Louis are reimagined as twins and both played by Leonardo DiCaprio. But my personal favour, of course, is the TV drummer Versailles, shown on the BBC, which I got to discuss every week

as the co-host of BBC 2's Inside Versailles with Professor Kate Williams. Bonjour. But was Philippe more than just King Louis' chaotic little brother. What's it like to grow up as the spare? And how long can you really keep a menagerie going? Let's find out. Right. Dr. Jonathan. Let's start at the start. When little Prince Philippe was born, who were his parents?

Presumably, kings, queens. Yes, that's right. So if you're a prince, generally your parents are a king and a queen. And in this case, France is often very boring in that they always choose the name Louis. So his father's name is Louis the 13th. His mother's name is Anne of Austria, which is a bit confusing because she's from Spain.

But the House of Austria governs in Spain. And so that's the way they call her, Anne d'Otrecht in French. So Louis and Anne are his parents. He's born in 1640, right in the middle of the 17th century almost. And he had an older brother who was called Louis the 14th eventually, about the time he's called the Dauphin. One of the things I think we need to put in context right at the very beginning is the fact that Philippe and Louis were both born after over 15.

years of marriage for his parents. And so there was this miracle moment in 1638 when Louis the 14th is born. And so they of course name him, the Diodonnet, which is the God-given son. Oh, how lovely. That's what people said about me, actually. It's quite an entrance into the world, I think. What I was going to ask, Tom, you have a brother. If your brother had been called the God-given son, how would you feel about that? Well, I am the eldest, actually, so I am the God-given son. And I was born after 10 years of my parents' wings. Oh.

So I'm very similar, obviously. Tom, why do you think it took Queen Anne and King Louis 13th, 23 years to conceive? Maybe just not into it. People were busy. You know, you've got hobbies. Or, well, it's an easy one to say, but was he homosexual? Or maybe they were both homosexual? Or maybe they were both.

I mean, pious is the word historians usually go with. Well, yes, or homosexual. There are some who thought that Louis the 13th did prefer boys. And there are several long relationships that he has with men of lower rank, somebody usually from the stables or a valley de Chambre or something. Yeah, it's true. Sounds like a film I once saw. But piety is certainly the word.

And I think more and more psycho-historians have gone and said, well, actually Louis XVIth was just cripplingly pious and couldn't really be in the same room with women, much less his wife. Jonathan, a psychohistorian is a historian of psychologist. Not someone with a knife running down the corridors. Right. No, it was a trend. It was one of the historians' trends in the 1970s, 1980s, really, where people were trying to use the new tools of psychology

and applying them to historical figures. They were both married when they were 15. So, I mean, to give them a bit of credit, I think they were just probably terrified. So, yeah, it took quite some time. And apparently, according to one story, a nun had to sort of convince him and say, look, this is your job, try to, you know, do this.

How bad are things going for none? And then the kind of popular story that a lot of people repeat again and again is that one night there was a big rainstorm. So Louis XIII was out hunting, passing through Paris, from one hunting lodge to another, and couldn't get where he was going. So he stopped in the Louvre right in the middle of Paris. But nobody knew he was coming.

So they hadn't prepared his rooms. So the queen was already there and had a bed. And so he slept with her. And voila nine months later It's quite romantic Wow so romantic Yet something else taken at the Louvre

And then Philippe is born after What? They just, they're like We probably need another one Yeah I suppose so But there is another gossip story there That there's an Italian adventurer called Giulio Mazzarini who arrives

And some people have thought Philippe was maybe His child Oh really So even as the spare Young Prince Philippe the second son, but it's still a prince, he's having presumably a very prestigious upbringing. He's going to be educated to be a king, or does he get a different education?

Well, he's being educated to be a king because in the 70th century, infants often died after only a year or two or nine or ten. So Philippe was always called The Spare. He was always the next one in line. So he had to be raised the same way. They had a governess, they had tutors, they had horse riding, fencing, military history, military strategy, that sort of thing. At the same time, there was always a bit of a limit in that Louis the 14th was always the first, and Philippe always had to defer to him no matter what. So their psychological relationship was set up from the very, very start. And when you say defer, what would that have meant on a day-to-day?

Well, it would have meant that if Louis the 14th stood up, well, let's call him the dauphin, Louis stood up, Philippe would have had to stand up. I mean, that kind of thing. Right. But we also have stories of them being boys and throwing things at each other. and, you know, fighting on the floor. And then he's, Philippe is chided because you can't strike your older brother. He's the dofowl of France. That's, I mean, can you imagine that? Mom, he...

I told you. A tragedy strikes very young for these two boys. I mean, France is... France loses its king, right? Louis XIII dies. The boys are four, three? Right. So four years old and three years old.

The gap is about two. altogether. So they're both children, and it's the middle of the 17th century. There are wars raging both with Germany and Spain. France has been at war for over 10 years, and their mother, Anne of Austria, tries to take the reins of government with Cardinal Mazuram by her side. But the old elites, the princes, the dukes, they don't want to have anything of that. They think they should be running the government as well. So they stage a battle, a civil war called the Fronde in France, and it gets to be so scary that at one point, and takes the boys and just escapes the countryside to Saint-Germain-Lay in the western parts of Paris.

So a lot of people who have tried to look at the trauma of these two kids, these boys, see this is a quite dramatic moment in their upbringing, I think. Because the Fron is happening at the same time as the English Civil War. What I was going to say was that around the same time. Yeah, 1648, exactly the same. So meanwhile in Britain, there's a horrible violent Civil War, but it's happening in France too. Right, and the dates really line up amazingly because just when the parliament and the rebellion is getting really, really strong, Charles I was executed January of 1649. Yes. And that's, I think, when the French monarchy says, you know, we've got to really consider what's going on here.

And those are their, you know, first cousins, really close. And there is a suggestion that the king will be seized, that, you know, Louis will be seized. Philippe falls ill at one point and he gets left behind. Yeah, yeah. So another trauma on top of a trussons. trauma. The other character who's revolving around

in the background that I think we shouldn't forget is Louis the 13th's younger brother so there's another generation of all this Gaston is still alive Gaston is dashing and lovely

he's one of my favorites but he is at the head of this rebellion and not to put everything into popular culture but is he the one in the three musketeers I'm actually not talking about

it probably is I'm not thinking of the novel I'm actually thinking of the movies of the cartoon I think of Dogtanian. Dogtanian. Yeah.

That famous documentary. Yeah, I don't know if that's one that you study a lot, Jonathan. There is a Gaston, isn't there? I'm aware of it, but I haven't seen it. It's dubbed in English as well. So, yeah, so in the Three Musketeer's stories, Queen Anne is running back and forth with Buckingham and the stolen diamonds and things like that. Oh, yes.

And I think Gaston is tied up with that. And Mazurra and Richelieu are the sort of chief advisors in those books, aren't they? So Uncle Gaston, it's nice to know that every family has a problematic uncle, even in the 17th century. Yeah, should we get into that? So we've got little Philippe's life beginning with, tragically, losing his father, experiencing a civil war, seeing a king of England being beheaded,

seeing his brother being sort of hounded by their own uncle. It's quite a lot of drama for a little kid. And I suppose all the while he's having to go to school. Tom, what do you think he's learning at this age? He's no longer a toddler, he's a bit older. I imagine at that time, very loosely, but I imagine that it's still probably learning about fighting and learning about how to be a good Catholic boy

and probably, well, I'm always intrigued in how kind of ruling families were conditioned from an early age to be not just in control, but also kind of without fear of being judged. Being above judgment must have been kind of an early indoctrination, I guess. It's an interesting point. It's the psychological training of power. Yeah, very much so.

I think that's one of the really good things that Philippe does is Philippe is the only thing. person who can say no to Louis. Ah, right. And I think that's really important. Is Philippe academic? Is he bookish? Is he well? Neither of them are, I think. Both of them study. Both them read their books. Both them, especially Louis XIV, becomes very, I read this in school, therefore it must be so. That's his mentality, I think, in a nutshell.

Philippe, I think, is a bit more fun, a bit more, maybe I just am biased, but I like him a lot. But they certainly learn, you know, dancing, fencing, horsemanship. Being on a horse is an important part. Yeah, a bit of Latin. We know that Philip's handwriting is dreadful, right? Yes, I've seen some of his letters. They're basically a bunch of vertical stripes. And apparently there are references for his wife, who will get to later,

having to read his letters back to him because he didn't know what he'd written. The one thing we do need to address, and I'm curious whether this is gossip rumor, there is this sort of story that Philippe is dressed as a girl. Now, obviously, boys at this age, wear dresses anyway to the age of five. Seven. Okay, so thank you. You know, Winston Churchill wore a dress until he was roughly that age. But there is this sense that the queen treats Philippe as her little princess. Yes, like you said, the common for all aristocratic boys is to wear a dress until you're,

breached, which I think is a fun word. Seven, you are breached and put into trousers, given a male governor rather than a female governor, Ness, who's been looking after you. But the stories are very much that Anne wanted to keep Philippe less threatening than Uncle Gaston. That's the common story. And so she took him with her on her visits to ladies, to convents, to other women, dressed as a girl. And in particular, we have a memoir written by a guy called the Abbe de Choisy. In his memoir, he says, well, I met Philippa all the time when we were kids and we were always both dressed as girls and we spent all of our day

putting on diamonds, doing our hair, really having such a great time. So he really liked it and his story in its own probably should have its own podcast because he grows up to be an abb and he's head of a church and he transforms himself

dress by dress week after week from a casick into a ball gown and his convent runway challenge. His parishioners don't seem to know is. But there is a caveat, which is that analysts and literary scholars have looked at the Abbe de Choisi's memoirs and have said, well, he was writing in an age when people really liked shocking. You know, they had to sell their books. It's not so different.

I don't imagine a world like that. Yeah. So it's possible that it wasn't true. But we do have later stories of Philippe cross-dressing. So the idea really is that while Gaston still alive, Philippe needs to be trained how to be different because Gaston was involved in civil wars from the 1620s all the way to the 1650s constantly rebelling and they thought

well let's do something different so later historians I think 19th century Victorian historians are to blame said oh well they emasculated him they made Philippe Gay so that he couldn't challenge the throne and I think that's ridiculous

because why would you do that? Yeah well that wouldn't have served the well particularly given that Louis XIV could have died at any moment And then suddenly you are stuck with, oh dear, what have we done? He's the backup plan, right? He's the future of France if Louis gets a cold. Yeah.

So logically it really doesn't make sense. But I think the Victorians liked that idea. Okay. How do you imagine Philippe as a teenager, Tom? What would you like as a teenager? Well, that's a big question. But I can imagine if I was Philippe, he's frustrated, but he would also be, I mean, he's given an opportunity to be a bit freer than his older brother.

I imagine. So probably would be more flamboyant, it would be more theatrical. I mean, I'm sensing from the sense that you've booked me. And how he would... Yeah, we didn't get Ray Winston for this one.

Danny Dyer didn't want to do this one. And so I'm imagining maybe pushing the envelope of fashion and trying out different things in different... He's had a very alternative upbringing in some ways, I guess. I'm imagining he would be kind of

theatrical to say the least. Yeah, he's more interested in theatre, and we'll actually get into that in a bit with Moliere. There's actually a quite close connection. So he is a bit freer and is a bit different. And I think his character, he's written about as much more energetic, much more fun, much more unpredictable, I think. There is the cross-dressing stories, which do then have some element of truth. But sometimes people also critiqued him for being too frivolous, too childish, not serious enough, not, you know, you're supposed to be the second man of France. He's fun with his friends. He's having a laugh, but maybe he's not quite growing up fast enough.

It's a tough one there, isn't it? Being an understudy like that. What is rehearsing for a gig you're never going to perform? Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. And you've spoken there about, you've mentioned cross-dressing or so on. I mean, there are stories of him showing up to court in a ball gown. Yeah. So one of the best memoirs we have at the time, which is very much worth a read, is the memoirs of his first cousin, whose name, guess what, is La Grande Mademoiselle. because she was the mademoiselle, but she was the older one, unmarried princess.

And her memoirs are hilarious because she thinks she's the most important person in Europe. And her memoirs start that way. They say, well, I'm writing these memoirs because everyone should be reading them. In that sort of sense of self-importance, I think is so fascinating in an age when we're encouraged to be quite meek and quite sort of muted. She was anything but. So she's Gaston's daughter, by the way. an Instagram influencer. Yeah, okay.

So she's Gaston's daughter, and she's telling us that Philippe shows up dressed as a shepherdess? Yeah, well, they did together. Oh, right, okay. They were often paired together to come to balls or dances as potential partners. Right, okay. They may have gotten married, even though she's 20 years older than he. But yes, she describes in her memoirs how quite clearly there's an event where they turn up together as shepherdesses. And they sort of parade around.

They seem to love shepherdesses because, like, Later on, Marianne Twinnett. That's right. Good knowledge. There's some like thing in the French court of like, what should we dress that? Like sort of tarts and vicar's party. Yeah, it is. Yeah.

So the upper class dressing as peasants and shepherds is quite funny. Oh, I see. That was the thing they did. Yeah. It's the ultimate role reversal, isn't it? Yeah. I suppose, you know, the kind of uber colic low status, the girl with the sheep. It's hilarious.

Unvailing your drag persona, the shepherdess at your brother's party. If your brother is the king of France, it's quite a bold move. Tom. Well, but then again, I think like in an age when they obviously had anything they wanted at their fingertips within the reason, why not? Like, I can imagine that that would be, I don't know how serious the court was, I guess, because they're such opulence. That's the good next question, I think, because we have to remember that what everybody else was wearing at the time is men were wearing high-heel shoes, we're wearing lace, we're wearing huge bows and giant curled wigs and lots of perfumed costumes.

So being in drag then didn't mean what it does now. Right. It's interesting to me that we talk about like drag or we talk about kind of people wearing different clothes and then society might expect of them. And it creates this uproar. But I kind of do think, well, for a long, long time, particularly wealthy, powerful people, have worn the most flamboyant things. You can imagine much more flamboyant than anything anybody would wear today.

Well, we did an episode on the history of high-heel shoes, which were first invented for men. And so, yeah, the history of the gendering of that type of show is really interesting. It goes back and forth, you know. But let's talk about Philippe as the spare, right? So he's the understudy, which is awkward enough, but I suppose he has to be ready. Louis, the King, does feel, he gets very, very unwell in 1658, and there is the possibility he's going to die. Yeah, so this is one of the places where I think people thought Philippe might become like Gaston and would champion a rebellion at a court coup.

was kind of brewing because Louis XIV was very sick. And Philippe doesn't really play the role he's supposed to. There's a whole coterie of people gathering around his bed saying, now's the time, now's the time. And he just starts crying because he loves his brother so much. And if Louis had died, of course, Philippe would have become king. But I think right away it shows that Philippe is of a different character to Uncle Gaston, in that he doesn't really want to see his power.

But he also does his jobs. He has duties. He goes around occasionally opening convents or cutting ribbons or, you know, It's the same sort of royal families then aren't that different from today. And to be seen. Yeah, he has to be seen. He can introduce edicts into Parliament. You know, he can do, if Louis is not available to do something clerical, Philippe can do it.

So he does have a job, yeah. Okay, so he can do sort of minor ruling duties, you know, spare. But obviously in 1661, King Louis has a son, which means Philippe's role as spare. Immediately he's no longer needed, right? Right. He's now the understudy to the understudy. Yeah. So he's kind of, he's had the Uncle Gaston treatment.

Yeah, he's been Gaston. He's been Gaston. Yeah. Oh, no. I mean, as somebody who's flamboyant, I imagine that was quite wounding. I think so. But on the other hand, he was able to focus in another direction. I do get the sense he's got a lot of directions.

We haven't really mentioned romance. Yeah. And we haven't mentioned the obvious thing of surely a prince of the royal blood needs to marry someone, noble so that, you know, you can start churning out kids as well. So, I mean, you mentioned the shepherdess. Does that work out? So, yeah, there is a plan to marry Monsieur with La Grandma Mademoiselle because she has the largest fortune in Europe. Oh, so she is important. Huge, vastly wealth. And so it makes much more sense to just keep that in the family. And there is another cutting line from her where she says, having seen what he is like,

I think I'd rather marry no one at all. Oh, no, I thought they were great friends. Well, no, they were great friends, but I mean, she's a smart woman and she realizes that his interests already are not in women. So the shepherd love interest doesn't quite work. It's a shame because I had, you know, Little Bo Pip would have been his, his drag name. Oh, that would have been. You've been thinking of that for a long time. Literally five minutes. I've been thinking, how do I squeeze this in?

I thought you've gone quiet for a moment there and you're just waiting for that moment. All right. So Philippe does marry. Yes. So Louis XIV has married to end a war, as you often do if you're royal. and he marries the infanta of Spain Marie-Terez arrives and they then have a dauphin

and in 1660, 1661 France needed a new ally across the channel so Louis XIV looked to his cousin Charles II who was the king of England and Scotland and he arranges a marriage with Charles's sister who's called Henrietta Anne or Henriette in French

So Philippe marries Henriette and is she happy about this? Is he happy about this? I think from both of them at first it's kind of a relief because they've grown up together they know each other very very well they know what each other's like

but I think the trouble does start almost immediately because she is very energetic and flamboyant and loves fashion and loves dresses that's my thing exactly so they clash almost immediately those are my shoes

because he wants to shine at the ball oh no she wants to shine at the ball this is a nightmare they've both called walk-in closets and filled with gout. I mean, the other thing we should say, actually, he has been promoted, he's now a duke at this point, because Gaston has died.

Uncle Gaston has gone, which means his title is up for grabs, and King Louis says, all right, you get to be the Duke of Orleans. And Uncle Gaston didn't have any kids? He does, but they're all girls. Oh, very. You can't pass on a dukedom to a girl.

Very convenient. Yeah. So Philippe is now the Duke of O'Leon. Henriette is now the Duchess of O'Leon. So Mr. and Mrs. O'Ollion. or whatever the rules are. So they're married and, I mean, Philippe and Louis' dad took 23 years to have kids. We know Philippe prefers men.

So do they have kids? Yeah, right away. Did they? Yeah. Oh. So much to everybody's surprise, probably. They have a daughter called Marie Louise right away. And then there's a boy who doesn't live very long called the Duke of Valois and another girl a bit later called Marie Ann.

So they do have children. And this, I think, is probably the most vicious part of Philippe's story that I read about when I was studying all these things, is that if Henriette was outshining him at court, he had a weapon at his disposal, which was making her pregnant. Oh, my. Is that awful? So if she wanted to be at court, you want to be there at the winter, because the winter is when all the balls are. And so he would make her pregnant right in time so that she couldn't be there in the winter and had to go to the country house. That's such a gay thing to do. It's quite a sort of jealous move, isn't it?

It's scupper your wife. And you can use the Bible to support it and say, I'm the husband. It's my right to make you pregnant whenever I want. If there was a big rent button that would just demolish the internet, I would smash that button with my forehead. From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews.

It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life, and all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. So we get the scent Henriette and Philippe. There's love there, but there's also real rivalry there and petty jealousies. She cheats on him. Yeah, so we can go back to LaGrema Moselle, who's a great source of information here. She's writing, writing, writing.

And there's a guy called the Comte de Guiche, who's this very handsome man who comes in. Comtecich. Kishlerain, what? And Geish is very violent and very, I think he's a top. And Philippe, I think, likes that. I mean, there's stories of him sort of being beaten almost by Geish, which are a little weird. But Henriette sweeps in and takes him as her boyfriend. So, yeah, the tension mounts constantly.

So they're sharing a lover? Not really, because Gish, well, we don't really know. But I think he goes from him to her. Was, again, I suppose, in our actually quite prudish post-Victorian age, we don't really acknowledge that, I think, love, free love, if you like, was much more the case in aristocratic circles. Is that fair to say that? Yes, and it comes and goes.

So the 1660s, which is the decade we're in now, is very fun. Festivals, parties, drinking. They're all in their 20s. The invention of champagne. Is that sort of decades? Oh, is that really? So Louis, his wife, Philippe, his wife,

they're all in their 20s. They're having a really good time. And the idea of, I suppose, labelling is also not really happening there, that people aren't coming out. Right. So there was no concept, really, of homosexual. There was no concept of an identity

that you would choose or not choose. A lot of it was just down to practice. What did you do? And of course, you know, there's always the Greek education and boys are meant to shag for a little while and then you eventually marry and have children. So putting a label on it is difficult. And I think a lot of things are much more fluid and you could be married but also having sex with a man on the side. And I don't think people really cared. Yeah, I was going to say.

Or they did care. And I think we should be clear to say this is, like you said, a very upper class thing. So middle class people, they're tutting away. Yes. The job is almost always, if you can keep this inside the court, that's fine. But once the general population of France starts talking about it, then you have to stop. Okay. So people like Giche are sent away.

Have your Kiche? I have your Kish and eat it. Well, we go from Kish to Lorraine because actually the next man is the Chevalier de Lorraine. Oh, my goodness. On ITV at 9 a.m. Have you ever heard of it? The Chevalier de Lorraine? The horseman of Lorraine.

No. Yeah, the knight of it. The knight. Oh, yeah. Is that right? No, I haven't actually. As I say, only his kish. It's a delightful giche.

Yes, yeah. I mean, Jonathan, this, I think it's fair to say, is Philippe's great love? Yes. Other men come and go in this story, but the Chevalier de Lorraine and Philippe are together for about 40 years. Really? Yeah, which I've never found an example like that in the 17th century of two men together like that. From everything I've read, people didn't mind that Philippe was having to having a boyfriend. What they didn't like was that he was being dominated because a prince,

which is what I think the TV show Versailles, I got wrong, by the way. And so the Chevalier de Lorraine is a great character because he was good looking, he was charming. He was from a really old family, the oldest family in Europe. But he had no money at all. So he was totally dependent on Philippe. And they had this romantic meetup. I think they'd known each other since boys because their mothers were great friends. But finally, they are both sent off to war together in 1667. The Chevalier gets wounded. Philippe nurses him back to health.

And it's very romantic, very sweet story. And then they're together for the next 40 years. A 40-year relationship, in some regards, lovely, beautiful, wonderful. In other ways, he is married. How do you think Henriette, his wife dealt with... Yeah, I know, you did. How do you think she dealt with the Chevalier? How do you think she handled him?

But she still... Isn't she off with what's his name? Keesh. Keesh. Yeah. She's having a keesh and eating it. She's, so she's, is he still knocking around with him? No, they've sent him off to the front.

Oh, God. Once it got two scandalous, he had to be sent away. Sent off the war. To hopefully get shot. You know. Yeah. Oh, so imagine she's furious then. Yeah, so she's furious and the Chevalier and Henriette don't get along.

And they're always throwing barb at each other. But then the interesting twist comes. along when she decides really that she wants to be a lot more politically active, which is unusual for a woman at the time. But if you've got the talent for it, and she did. And so Louis XIV, needed more allies. So he sent her off to England to meet with her brother. And Henriette and Charles have a tete-a-tete in Dover. They sign a treaty. A secret treaty. A secret. Well, parts of it a secret, yeah. The Treaty of Dover, I mean, it's scandalous when it's revealed that Charles II basically says, I will take a massive bribe and become a Catholic.

No, really? Yes, really. That's why it was a secret. Big secret. Oh, wow, I didn't know he became. Well, he didn't because his ministers found out. Yeah, big, ish. Heads rolled.

Henriette or Henriette was triumphant. She had succeeded in really changing the alliances in Europe. She comes back to France. In triumph, everyone is saying, what a great. job she's had, and this is June of 1670, she suddenly becomes very sick after drinking chikery, which is sort of like hot chocolate, and dies very soon after. Oh, no. Wasn't poisoned?

Well, so she said, I'm poisoned. I'm poisoned as people were gathering around her. And so everyone presumably pointed a finger at Philippe. Or the Chevalier. Or the Chevalier, right? Because she, I mean, she'd had a word with her brother, and the Chevalier had been turfed out for a bit. Right.

So he's actually not in the country, so I don't think he poisoned her unless it was very complicated. He was in Rome. So Louis XIVA thought that the Chevalier was too embarrassing in terms of global politics. And he wanted this alliance with England. And Charles the second was saying, well, you've got to get rid of that guy. So they did. Because of the scandal. Because of the scandal. Yeah. That idea that like this divorced gay couple were going to cross the water. So Henriette tragically died. The Chevalier the Lorraine returned. I bet he did. Straight on his horse. shows up the funeral

Yeah, I bet Just the outfit, yeah And so We have now, Philippe, the father of children No longer married With a stable boyfriend There's no real reason for him to remarry Not necessarily, no

But Louis the 14th only has one son And even though the dauphin is now 10 He still could die Chiquary happens Chiquary happens And Louis XIV Needs New Allies England turned up to not be a good ally at all

And so he looks to Germany And the German princely states He can't marry Habsburg Because they're the enemy Whose second best There's a state called the Palatinate Which controls the Middle Rhine And so Louis XIV gets a girl from the

Palatinate Who is a wonderful character Who we'll talk about a bit more now Called Elizabeth Charlotte Of the Palatinate We call her Liza Lle-Lotto which is not really correct. It's what the Germans called. Lizzie with a Z. She's called Madame Palatine by the French. So she marries in from Germany, which means presumably she's a Protestant?

Yes, she is. So this is all quite awkward, right? Because the Catholic royal family of France are marrying a Protestant princess. Yeah. But France being France and being the most powerful dynasty in Europe, the Bourbons, they can demand a lot. And so the Elector Palatine pretends that he doesn't know about the marriage. He actually releases a statement that says, oh my goodness, my daughter has gotten married and I know nothing about it. And she travels to the frontier, she goes to Mets and within one day,

she does catechism, she renounces heresy, she becomes a Catholic all in one day. In a crash course. Yeah, crash course. So by the end of the day, she's a good Catholic girl and they get married. Lisa Lotta is a fantastically enjoyable character.

Her letters are incredible. They're so funny. She herself, how does she describe herself, Jonathan? So we are so lucky as historians that she left behind thousands of letters. Almost every day she wrote letters to relatives either in England or in Germany. And they are hilariously funny. She puts a good foot forward at beginning. She loves hunting.

Louis XIV the 14th loves hunting. They become really close right away. Let Philippe do his decorating at home. Yes, he's got things. He's got a watercolor class that do. And they have. children. So the first that marriage is going well, but she then gets larger. And she herself, in her letters, says, oh, I've become very broad. And she even has a very funny letter where she

says, you know, I've always made fun of my ugliness, quote, my father and my late brother often told me how unattractive I was. I laughed it off and never cared. My brother called me badger nose and I laughed even harder. Bless her. She sounds like a lot of fun. I have a lot of time for her. Yeah. Yeah. It's quite self-deprecating then for it. Her kind of healthcare regime is great.

Yeah, that's really interesting to think of. It's very German. Yes. So she's seeing that there are these royal and aristocratic children dying, basically, because French medicine is so weird. Oh. And so she says, nope, we need open windows. We need healthy, fresh air, crazy ideas like that.

Yeah, like Florence Nightingale. Yeah, yeah. So she's way ahead of time. And she does a five-mile walk every day in wind and rain. She's sort of out there, physical, you know, strong and hilariously funny. Her letters are fantastic. I think they're digitised. I'm not sure if they're translated.

But there's lots of different collections and some translations. She's an absolute hoonlea Lota. The most famous one maybe is about farting. Yeah. Very quickly if you can. Well, it's one of the etiquette moments where they're standing, waiting for the king to walk into a room and two of her children fart. And then the father says, well, I can make music better than that.

And he farts. And then madame says, well. And she outfarts them all. She's the Celia Imre. Yeah, I was going to say. God, they had those windows open. Yes. No, what is she?

As a fan of that. But we must talk about the Chevalier again because he came back into the picture. He will not leave the picture, Willie. He's not getting the memo. And 1672, he's back in the life. And he sort of, you know, ruins the honeymoon period with Lisa Lottor. I bet he absolutely hates poor old Liza Lottor. Yeah, maybe.

Yeah. It sounds like she's funny than him, which gays hate. They suffer tragedy, the couple, right? They lose a child. Yeah, so there is another boy that's born, but he only lives a year or so. And so they do suffer this tragedy, which brings them together. And I think throughout all of it, even if he has this boyfriend and other boyfriends, they do feel like a really good couple for the rest of their lives.

So it's a very strange kind of three-way relationship. And they raise their children together, and they're very, very proud of their children. Two more daughters. No, sorry, one more daughter. But then once the child-rearing age kind of passes, I think the Chevalier decides now is my time again. And I want to be really the head of this household. Really? Yeah.

So he's quite ambitious. He is very ambitious. And all the commentators say he runs Philippe's household, which is quite a lot of people, two or three hundred people. Art collections. We haven't talked so much about these two houses. There's the Palais Royale in Paris. And then there's a palace called Saint-Clu on the outskirts of Paris, which is just as grand as Versailles. It has its own gilded chambers, its own hall of mirrors, spectacular gardens,

amazing fountains. And he's in charge in a way of all that. I bet he is. The children, we should mention their names. It's another Philippe, little Philippe Duke de Chard and Elizabeth Charlotta, or Charlotte. So after 1677, their relationship is struggling. But we need to talk about something that might be a little surprising. We've talked about Philippe as a man of great flair and theatre and culture and laughter. My goodness, have we? Yeah. He's also a great warrior.

Warrior or warrior? Oh, that's a good point. I mean, technically, probably a bit of both. But warrior, warrior. Oh, he's a good fighter. He's a lover and a fighter. A lover and a fighter. Goodness me, yeah.

He goes to war. Yes, so that's one of the very interesting shocks of the life is that they go to war. It's boringly called the Dutch War in the middle of the 1670s. And Philippe has been sent off before, but usually as a sort of observer or maybe he does a diversionary tactic one day and make sure that Louis gets the glory.

But at one point in 1677, he's in Flanders on his own, and the king isn't there. And it's a small village called Castle. And our good friend William III, who's also in favour of boys. Oh, I didn't know that. Yes.

They face each other on the battlefield and, surprise, surprise, Philippe trounces him. Oh. Yeah. So William III would, of course, be King William of England, right? Right, not yet. Not yet.

So in 1677, he's the stat holder of the Netherlands. He's the Prince of Orange. But he will be William, as in William and Mary. Right. In 10 years time, he will become William and Mary in this country. So Philip wins a huge victory at the Battle of Castle, but do you know what he was doing at the start of the battle? His nails.

Almost. He was adjusting his wig. The battle had started. His men were fighting and he was still in his tent. Oh, which I absolutely respected. I think the men would have respected him for that as well. You can't go to battle with a loose fringe. Absolutely, yes.

And what would the wigs have been? I'm thinking they're dark, they're sort of brunette at this point. Yeah. And quite long. Yeah. Long and curls. But this is Philippe's shining military moment. And he gets back to Paris, back to Versailles.

And his brother, the king, says, basically nothing. Oh, no. After all, he did for him. Yeah. It was a very frigid moment. Yes. And we have a memoir later who says, the king supposedly said, I would have really, really given millions to have won a battle.

because Lou of the 14th never actually won a battle. So he's jealous. Yes, he's very jealous. And guess what happens after that? They go to a battle with each other. No. Good guess, though. I mean, that's the obvious thing.

They have a lot of jewels. Luckily, the love wins out, I suppose. They never go to war with each other, but Louis strips him of military command. Right. So I think in the history of their relationship, Lou, between the brothers, Louis and Philippe, this is really the high point of Louis being a really,

I think, awful brother to Philippe. and not treating him very well. And that carries on then for the next decade. He doesn't give him another command ever again. Because I think he's embarrassed. And he doesn't like little brother having done so well in a battle. Because Philip had been, you know, he'd been shot. The bullet had bounced off his armour.

His horse had been killed. Like he's fighting in the middle of this sort of, you know, he's not at the back, you know, adjusting his wig the whole time. He's there. He's in the firing line. And so Louis is like, screw you. And that ends his military career. And so at that time,

Kings were still going into battle. They weren't expected to be a figurehead at the back. More or less. I mean, it's already moving towards that. You're right. Yes. So Louis XIV does go to battle, but generally stands on the white horse, poses for the painter, and then leaves. So Louis XIV is the sun king and the sun shines very brightly and Philippe is often in his shadow.

Yeah. Literally, right? Yeah. And he has to be. Okay. So what do you think Philippe does to find a new path to independence from his brother? What's his new career move? Musicals.

or crypto? Yeah, crypto's big. He sort of goes into finance and business. Oh, okay. He's suddenly very good with his pennies. Yeah. So the other rather surprising turn, you might say, for someone who was so frivolous in his 20s,

now he's in his 30s and 40s. He develops his lands, his Apenage, and he builds a canal, he builds agricultural systems. He makes the land that he's, been given, profitable, doubles its income, and then he gets a big windfall because, guess what, La Grande Mousel dies, still unmarried, and he gets it all. Really? So she did like him in the end?

Yeah, yeah. She gives him all the money, and it's not tied to the crown the way his other money is. So he becomes financially independent. Oh, so it's his private wealth? It's his private money. Oh, lovely. That's hugely different. Oh, my.

So what did he buy? Well, they already had the house. Oh, yeah. So the mortgage is paid off. San Clu becomes even more amazing. Sadly, none of its left. What do you mean? Oh, it all was...

Yeah, it was destroyed in the 1870s. Oh, really? So post-French Revolution. Yeah, Franco-Prussian War. Right, okay. So we've got Philippe now as the sort of business mogul. Heaven. Still married to Lisa Lotta, of course.

Lisa with a Z. And Lisa Lotta, Lolauser now. Yeah, yeah. Wow. And Chevalier's still knocking about in the background? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the three of them,

Yeah? There's three of us in this marriage. Yes, there is. And by the 1680s or 90s, they do sort of have a modus operandi. They do kind of live together. It works. They've sort of found a way of existing together at court. She's most interested in her letter writing and her dogs. Oh, fair enough.

I can understand that. What does he do all day? They still go to parties. Oh, okay. They still eating it up? Eat a lot. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Okay. They're berry at this point. Yeah. And you mentioned Molière. So Molière, for those who don't. No, Molière is the great comic playwright of 17th century France. He's sort of France's Shakespeare. Right.

He's fantastically funny. And he comes to work for not the king, but... But Philippe. Yeah. So, Philippe is given as his first residence, the Palais Royale, which is right in the centre of Paris. It's right across the street from the Louvre. And they build a theatre in the Palais Royal.

Oh. And Molière and his troupe actually live there. And they do plays there. And it's called the troupe de Monsieur. And so, Moliere is Philippe's guy. He also has his own composer, his own painters. his own architects, often people that are out of favor with Louis XIV.

So he's sort of the protector, I think, of artists who are not necessarily doing mainstream art. Filippe's much more interested in Chinese art, long before anybody else is. Yeah, so that didn't come in in England, until there's 18. 20 or 30 years later, Philippe's already doing it.

So I think he's become a bit of an avant-garde collector, patron with his artists, with his musicians, and with his Chinese porcelains, lacquers. Yeah. So he's a collector of interesting people and of interesting beautiful things. There's even a tour pamphlet, a tour guide booklet that comes out in 1689 that says, if you're in Paris, you should go to the Palaisal and visit Philippe's art collection. Oh, wow. So if anything, he's kind of got the best gig of all, having lost out on it. Yeah. And Louis never comes to Paris. He doesn't like Paris. He hates it.

He stays in Versailles. He stays at Versailles. And Philippe is in Paris, having parties, collecting art. Oh my God, his brother has been furious. Well, can you imagine. So Philippe, by this point, was a brother, a father, a husband, and a grandfather. His kids have kids.

Wow. Does that mean he sort of mellows? And at the end of his life is very, he's doing the crossword and just walking the dogs. Or is it still quite? It's very classically, the older gay couple that does, at least open an antique shop.

I mean, it's interesting. His son's marriage is complicated. The Duke de Chardra. That's a tricky one, right? Yeah, so the son who does live is called Philippe, and he's called the Duke of Chartres. He suffers somewhat from his father's dismissal from the army, basically. And as he gets older, he also wants a military career, and Louis XIV just won't give it to him. Because he's afraid of outshining the dauphin, his own son, who turns out to be a bit dull.

The dofan is sort of described as fat and indolent and doesn't really shine in any way, whereas Chart is smart and talented. And so he's kept That side of the family is doing really well Yes, it's a problem Against all the arts So this is where the conflict comes back in And Philippe and Louis fight a lot About Louis's lack of promotion

Of shots Tom, given all you know now about Philippe How do you think he died? What do you think did him in the end Ham sandwich Like Mama Cass Yes, exactly Or fellow

tripped up on one of his antiques. No, it's quite sad. He had a big argument with Louis. And the stress kills him, Jonathan? Yeah, that's one of the stories. Some people say maybe not. But it seems, at least it contributed to it. Because in the 1690s, he ate a lot.

And he sat around a lot. And he gets redder and redder in the face. And there is a story that he goes to Versailles and argues with Louis about Schart, not being given a job. and then he's so angry and shouts at Louis, which is incredible, if you think about it, shouting at Louis. Nobody does that. The most powerful man in Europe at this point.

Louvre is unbelievably powerful. And then goes back to San Clu. His house has a heart attack and dies. What we know about the death of Philippe is that the king can't be present. So he had left and gone back to Versailles. And Philippe dies at San Clu. And the first thing that his wife does, as she later tells us, she walks straight into his rooms and burns all of his private letters,

which are mostly from his male favourites. Because that would have created further scandal for the children, presumably. Right. Yes, is she protecting Philippe? Pouti Philippe herself. It's an interesting question, right? Because obviously Queen Victoria's letters were edited and destroyed by her daughter. Oh, were they?

Yeah, we don't have many of her love letters. We know there's a big chunk missing. So that's why my PhD shifted directions. Oh, right. Because I was planning to do my PhD just on him, and then I realized all of his letters were. gone. And when Louis XIV finally dies,

it's his five-year-old great-grandson who becomes the next king of France. So Louis's been on the throne for so long. His great-grandson is taken over. So it's extraordinary kind of two brothers just occupying power for a long time. Long time. Yeah.

And his great-grandson, is that because the son and the grandson have died? Yeah. That's right. Yeah. So smallpox is a real decimator. And 1710, 1711, the dauphin and the petty dauphin die. Yeah. But Philippe's son, the Duke de Chard, does become the Regent of France. He becomes the

Duke of O'Leon. Right. So he succeeds his father in the O'Ollion title and becomes region to France, and a really good one too, for about 10 years. The other thing that happened right after Philippe died was that his son, who's the new Duke of O'Leon, offered the Chevalet de Lorraine use of his apartments in the Palais-Oreal for as long as he wanted. And so he did live there happily, not being turfed out, but he then died as well a year later. Amazing. Tom, have we convinced you the Duke Philippe deserves his podcast. Oh yes, I'm sure he would be very pleased to know that we are commemorating him here. But I feel like, given what we've learned, he probably would expect a little bit more. I think something more like an opera.

What a great idea. A bit more Rasmataz. Yes, I feel like someone like Rufus Wainwright would be penning it right now. The nuance window! But it's time now for the nuance window. This is where Tom and I sit quietly to plan our muscarade costumes. I'm going to share. Shepardess, how about you? For two minutes, while Jonathan holds court and tells us something we need to know about Philippe, Duke D'Aulian. So my stopwatch is ready.

Take it away, Dr. Jonathan. Okay, thank you. What we've been talking about today, in a nutshell, really, every royal dynasty in history has been faced with a similar conundrum. If you have too many heirs and you cause infighting over the succession, but if you have too few heirs, then your dynasty could go extinct. So you have an air and a spare, which is good, But you then need to give the spare something to do. Otherwise, he, and in France it's always a he, could go rogue and try to carve out a niche for himself, potentially challenging the power of the older brother of the king.

Philippe D'Aulein found himself in this position. If he did nothing, he was accused of being lazy and unworthy of his princely title. But if he was active in politics of the military, he was accused of being threatening. And so it was a sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. So, Philippe chose a different path to some of his more. aggressive predecessors. He was fiercely loyal to the king and focused his energies away from politics and more into patronage of the arts, building up his palaces, his gardens, and generally being an additional ornament to the French monarchy. He did his duty in marrying to advance France's diplomatic affairs and in producing extra heirs for the Bourbon dynasty, but he also was a source of potential scandal and disrepute for the French monarchy in his fairly open affairs with men. History has remembered this prince as a fop and a playboy, but we need to view him more in the context of his times,

a loyal supporter of his brother Louis XIV, a patron and a collector, and a savvy businessman who laid the foundations for the powerful Orlean dynasty that endured four generations. Amazing, thank you so much. Tom, final thoughts on Philippe? I suppose what an inspiring person to teach you that even if life hasn't given you the most prominent position, you can actually make a heck of a lot of what you get up to.

I mean, it helps, of course, if you are, the second son of the most powerful dynasty in Europe at the time. But that aside, go to the show. You can still do something. My advice is by antiques. That's good advice, yeah. Or inherit your spinster cousin's vast fortune. It really helps if you've got a spinster cousin. Yes, absolutely.

He's the richest woman in Europe. Make sure to be a nepo prince with a very connected family. But as you say, a really interesting person, because he sort of defies expectations at quite a lot of the moments in that. life story, isn't it? When people want him to sort of challenge his brother, he doesn't. It's intriguing. And he sets the standard for how second sons are then for most of the 18th century. Yeah. And the second son problem is something we've seen all the way through the 20th century with the British royal family, right? It's, there are tensions there. And I won't say it anymore. So what do you know now?

Okay, well, it is time now for the So What Do You Know Now? This is our quick fire quiz for Tom to see how much you've learned today. Tom, are you a confident quizer? Well, I am, but then I've done pub quizzes and I can't get anything right. So I don't know. I like to think I retain knowledge, but maybe I... We've had a nice chat today, I think. Well, it's just, you know what I love about history is the fact that it teaches you the things, but then it fires synapses off to go, oh, what about that?

And where does that fit there? And how does that connect with that? And I suppose that means that that time was a bit like X, Y, Z. And you did that very well. You were very good at connecting it to other history. I was kind of doing that to try and impress you both. I feel very impressed. I'm sure it would be very tedious for the listeners, I'm sorry.

Not at all. Okay, well, I've got ten questions for you. And these are all things we've discussed today. Oh, my. So let's see how you go. Okay, question one. Who was Philippe's more famous older brother? King Louis XIV.

Absolutely. That means you want to start with. Question two, what shocking costume did Philippe wear to a ball in 1659? A shepherdess. Yeah. Question three. With whom did Philippe begin a 40-year affair in 1667? Chevalier.

It was, the Chevalier de Lorraine. Question four. What was the name of Philippe? Problematic Uncle. Gaston. It was Gaston. Question five. Name one of Philippe's two wives.

Enrique. That's right. Henriette and Lisa Lotta. Question six. Which battle did Philippe win against the Dutch in 1677? The Battle of the Dutch. It begins with C. Oh, Castile.

Castile. Castle, yeah. I'll give you that. I'll give you that. Question seven. How did Louis respond to Philippe's success at Casel? By doing nothing. He just ignored it.

And then stripped him of his future. Yeah. Yeah, jealous brother behavior. He didn't let his son even become a Duke of Shart. That's right, yeah. Question 8. How did Philippe gained some independence from his brother all the same? Well, he farmed better and so made more money that way, but then inherited his...

He did. Farmer Phil. That's it. Farmer Phil, yes. That's quite a different vibe for him, isn't it? Yeah. It happens there with a lot of gays. You know, when they get older, they like to get into like country file and gardening and things.

Why not? Question nine. What was Philippe allegedly doing right before he had a fatal stroke or heart attack? Arguing with his brother. He was. And this for a perfect 10 out of 10, what did Lisa Lotta burn immediately after Philip's death? His emails. I mean, letters. His emails. A flawless run, Tom, never in doubt, 10 out of 10. Well, I'm very proud of myself. I'm quite nervous about that. How have other people done? How did Nish Kumar do?

Nish did well. Yeah, did he get 10? He might have got 10. I think he might have got 10. Damn it. He got 11 out of 10, apparently. I'm told. I'm sure he did. It got 10 out of 11 with a bonus question. I didn't rely on any notes, I want to point out as well.

You have a blank page. All I wrote down was Lisa Lotta, and that wasn't even the answer I gave. Yes, she would have enjoyed that because she loved letters. Yeah. Yes, yeah. I mean, well done, because most of the comedies who come on are making extensive notes, whereas you've done that entirely from your brain power. Well, they're probably thickers.

Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Tom, for coming on. An absolute pleasure. Thank you, Dr. Jonathan. A listener, if you want more fascinating French royals, check out our episodes on Catherine de Medici or Marianneut. For more LGBT history,

listen to our episodes on Benedetta Carlini, the saucy sexy nun, and of course the Bloomsbury Group with Susie Ruffle, your friend, Tom. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to Your Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else.

And if you're outside the UK, you can listen at BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. And I'd just like to say, of course, a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner for Manchester Metropolitan University. We have the superb Dr Jonathan Spangler. Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you very much. It's been fun.

That's been fun. And in Comedy Corner, we have the terrific Tom Allen. Merci beaucoup, Tom. Durya. Beautifully done. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we give another spare from history the attention they deserve. But for now, I'm off to go and buy a Shepherdess costume and a wig.

Bye! Your Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC. Radio 4. This episode was researched by Emma Mitchell. It was written by Dr. Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Dr. Emma Noghose, and me. The audio producer was Steve Hanky and our production coordinator was Jill Huggott. It was produced by Dr. Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me, and senior producer, Dr. Emma Noghous. Our executive editor was Philip Sellers. Hello, I'm Robin Inch. Sat next to me as Brian Cox, but I don't want him saying anything yet because I am so excited by our new series of Infinite Monkey Cage, where we're

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