You're Dead to Me - Renaissance Beauty: hair, makeup and skincare in the 16th century

Episode Date: September 5, 2025

Greg Jenner is joined in sixteenth-century Italy by historian Professor Jill Burke and comedian Tatty Macleod to learn all about Renaissance beauty standards and treatments. Early modern Italy is renowned for the gorgeous artworks created by painters like Titian, Rubens and Botticelli, many of them featuring beautiful women looking at themselves in mirrors or getting made up for a night out. In this episode, we take you through a Renaissance Get Ready With Me as we explore how these women would have been taking care of their hair and skin. We look at what hairstyles and makeup men and women wore, how often they bathed, whether or not they removed their body hair, and how they shaped their bodies through dieting and underwear. Along the way, we dive into the recipes for popular cosmetics and skincare treatments, ask where Renaissance beauty standards came from, and uncover the sexist, racist and classist ideas that often underpinned them. But we also explore how their beauty routines could be an avenue for women’s self-expression, and show the importance of the history of beauty, even amidst the turbulent politics and warfare of the early modern period.If you’re a fan of women’s creativity through time, whacky historical recipes and early modern Italian art, you’ll love our episode on Renaissance beauty.If you want to know more about the beauty standards of the past, why not listen to our episode on the history of high heels, or haircare entrepreneur Madam CJ Walker. And for more from Renaissance Italy, check out our episodes on the Borgias and Leonardo Da Vinci.You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past.Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Emma Bentley Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Gill Huggett Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

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Music, radio, podcasts Hello Greg here, just a reminder before we get going that episodes of Your Dead to Me are released on Fridays wherever you get your podcasts, but if you're in the UK, you can listen to the latest episodes

28 days earlier than anywhere else first on BBC Sounds. Hello and welcome to your You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are plucking our brows and caking our faces with lead, as we learn all about the history of beauty in Renaissance Italy.

And to help us with our makeover, we have two very special visitors than the You're Dead to Me salon. In History Corner, she's Professor of Renaissance Visual and Material Cultures at the University of Edinburgh, where her research focuses on how human bodies were thought about and modified during the Renaissance. You might have read her wonderful book. How to Be a Renaissance Woman, the untold history of beauty and female creativity. It's Professor Jill Burke. Welcome, Jill.

Hello, it's lovely to be here. And in Comedy Corner, she's a bilingual comedian and social media star based in Paris. Maybe you saw her debut sellout stand-up tour, Fug, or have seen one of her many hilarious TikToks and Instagram reels about the differences between French and British culture. It's Tati McLeod. Welcome to the show, Tati.

Thank you very much for having me. Excited to be here. Delighted to have you here, first time on the show. Is it is indeed, and I came all the way from Paris to be here. So I hope you feel very grateful. We are very appreciative. And I suppose the obvious question, do you like history? Or is this already like a disaster waiting to happen for me?

I thought you're about to ask me, do I like makeup? And I was so ready to say, yeah, absolutely. Okay, do you like makeup? Yeah, yeah, I do. Like, this is bang on in terms of themes that I'm interested in. Make up being the central part to it. Renaissance a little bit more uncertain. Okay.

Do I like history? Yeah, right. I mean, we've all got one. Great. Depend to you asking. In what context. Relationship history. I was going to say.

Personal history. No, I'm intrigued. I'm interested. I'm curious. I'm open. I'm present. Great. You're known for your Get Ready With Me videos.

Do you know anything about the Renaissance era and beauty trends? No, I mean, I don't know today's beauty trends. I feel like if there's something, you know, especially when you're on social media and I'm in my mid-30s, so I'm really not the target audience for TikTok and I spend a lot of my time just scrolling through trying to keep up with the never-ending new brands, new products, new fandango thing that you should be buying. So I'm not, if anything, I'm probably closer to Renaissance history makeup trends than I am to current makeup trends. So I feel like it's, maybe I'm going to really connect with the makeup of back in the day. Maybe, maybe. And do you know when the Renaissance era was? Can you give us a rough time period?

So my thing with history, I'm more of a people. You know, era's very abstract. Sure. I think let's think in people. So Renaissance, this is how I try to think about it. Okay, so Renaissance, I'm thinking Leonardo da Vinci. Lovely. Very good.

Very good. Okay, great. So that's my starting point. Leonardo da Vinci I'm pretty sure was around when Henry the 8th was around and I know that Henry 8th was around in the 16th century So that's how I get into That's I always start with the person and then we get into the time frame Yeah so 16th century right?

Yeah Yeah good stuff So what do you know That brings us to the first segment of the podcast So what do you know This is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. Maybe you've seen famous Titian paintings of lovely Renaissance ladies gazing ardently at themselves in the mirror or putting on their makeup.

You might have heard of Queen Elizabeth the first painting a face with white lead. I mean, who can forget Margot Robbie's look in the Merry Queen of Scots movie? Barbie would never. But how did women and men really get ready in the Renaissance? What makeup looks were trending and why was arsenic a vital part of the beauty regime? Let's find out, Professor Jill. Let's start with the beauty basics. A primer on primer, if you will.

When was the Renaissance period? We've already had Tati's excellent summation, but technically, because it overlaps in a medieval period in a very confusing way. How would you define it? So Tati was completely right. Oh, wow. In that it's the 16th century's part of the Renaissance period. But it is a little bit confusing in that it's related to the rebirth of classical antiquity,

the interest in classical antiquity, which in Italy started a little bit before other places in Europe. So normally we'd say from about 1,400, so 15th century in Italy to about maybe 1650, something like that. Right. So late Middle Ages and part of the early modern period. So basically the rest of Europe had to catch up. Yeah.

Sort of like a fashion trend that starts somewhere. Absolutely. That's exactly. Yeah, okay, I'm with you. Yeah. I'm comparing it to Carlo. And it is exactly people like Leonardo da Vinci, Boccilli, Michelangelo, all those people. All the turtles.

All the turtles. who made like a massive difference and a massive change to the way that people painted and the way that the people saw things and had an effect actually on the way that people understood beauty. So if you look at, say, maybe you'll be able to think of Botticelli's birth of Venus, you know, when she's on it.

I know that one. Yes. I know that one. And she's naked, you know, rising from the waves. That has an idea of female beauty that's different from the middle ages, a different shaped body. It's relating to classical sculpture And when people saw these paintings and prints from these paintings

Because this is also the era of printing They decided to change their bodies to look like, more like the paintings So there's a change not just in art But also in the way that people understood their own bodies And other people's beauty What bodies looking like before then? Well, the ideal of what bodies were looking like before then Was more pear-shaped

So there's things that stay But in the Renaissance, you start to get this kind of fascination with hourglass figures. Oh, my. Is that what it comes from? Yeah. In the Middle Ages, when you see things like images of the goddess of beauty, Venus, they'll look much more, much bigger hips, much narrower shoulders. So there's a change in actually how real women felt they should look.

And we call it the Renaissance. Well, you speak French, Tati. Renaissance means, right? I do know, I do. This is another. I've actually doing quite well so far. Yeah, you do very well, again. Yeah. I mean, I can't, well, that bit, you know what that bit means.

And this also means birth. Yeah. So I guess rebirth. Rebirth. Yes, absolutely. So it's a harking back, right? It's a nostalgia vibes. Yeah, absolutely.

And they're going way back to the Roman era. Way back to the Roman era. And they're reading and ancient Greece as well, but they know more about ancient Rome. Because sculpture and buildings from ancient Rome are all over the place in Europe, but particularly in Italy. And they're also reading more classical texts. So people like Galen, who's one of the most important medical writers in classical times, they're rereading him. And Galen writes about cosmetics as well. Yeah.

So doctors start to be really interested in cosmetics and wealthy women start to commission doctors to cure any of their beauty ailments as well. So there's a real abundance of recipes from this period. Oh my God, it's so fascinating. The parallels of like Botox and surgery, you know, like it's a similar thing. You know, rich of the woman going to get a particular doctor. You can imagine it back then just being like, have you heard of doctor? Absolutely, yeah. Dr. Philopio?

Yeah, I've heard that Anne Boileensby's speaking. Famous for his tubes. Yes, exactly. It's incredible. It does amazing work for the royal family. Yeah. So, Philopio, who wrote about the first time about the flopian tubes, was also gave beauty tips advice.

And he lectured on beauty at the University of Padua. And from then, this is a big university where doctors from all over Europe came. And so they'd listen to Fallopian, and then they'd go and write their own beauty books. So, yeah, there's loads of similarities. Yeah, and this is also the area where they invent the modern mirror, as we know it, like Venetian glass, the long sort of full length, the flat mirror. There are beauty books too, right?

I mean, Jill, we have to talk about some of the best, because you said the printing press was invented in the mid-1400, so we get to be beauty books. And the best-selling one is Marinello's Ornament of Ladies. Ornament of Ladies, yes. This came out in 1562, but beauty recipe book started in the 1520s in Italy, and there's some in France as well. So in 1530s, you get French medical recipe books.

It's really France and Italy that are leading the field here. And so the ornamenti de la donne, the ornament of women by a doctor, Giovanni Marinella, has about 4,000 recipes for cosmetics and for slimming and for all sorts of things. It's like an actual like historic Zafora. You know, you know, the shop, or people go, yeah, it's like that boots back in the day. Except it would be as if Sephora had people standing there telling you what was wrong with you. I think they do do that. So they have, Marinella's book tells you the ideal look at the beginning of every chapter

and then says things like if you're hairy, you're like a wild beast, you can't blame your husband for leaving you. This kind of thing. So it's really terrible. It's funny. But at the same time, really, you really recognise these kind of tropes about beauty, about women always being in the wrong. And they're marketed as books of secrets. Oh, yes.

There's a sort of like hidden knowledge like this, this is the book of students. It's like what, do you know, this one word tip? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's that kind of, yeah. It's one word tip to get rid of belly fat, this kind of thing. So there's this idea that there's secrets in nature that if only you can discover them, then you're going to be forever youthful. So there'll be recipes for things like recipes if you want to look forever 20 or 25. Sure. Are you serious? I am serious, yeah.

Because it just, it's, I mean, I don't know if it's like funny or fascinating or worrying that nearly hundreds of years later and they're thinking, yeah, well, I mean, not a huge amount has changed. Like that sounds like if you pitch that as a marketing approach to something that you were writing now, you'd be like, yeah. But that's a real facet of Renaissance culture

because there's a lot in Renaissance culture about pretending to be better than you are. Right. If you think of like some of the conduct books at the time, like Castellione's book of the courtier, which is a really famous one, it's all about just be the person who the Duke wants you to be. Make it till you make yourself.

Don't let them know. Don't let them know what you're like. Pretend all the time. Yeah. Okay. And there's also a book by Katerina Switzer. Oh, yeah. So Katarina Swartz is a really interesting figure.

She's the leader of a small Italian state, Northern Italian State, and Imelan. And she wrote a book called The Experimenti. And in it, she wrote about 192 cosmetic recipes alongside other recipes. There are recipes for medicine, for horse medicine, and for magic spells as well and for alchemies. Amazing. That's what you don't get at boots. No, that's very true.

Not on a horse matinee around. And I love how those three just sit together. It's naturally like, dip your face, go and fix your horse. And then ride on to do a magic spell. The trio. Well, we're structuring this episode a bit differently, Tati. We're going to do it like a Get Ready with Me video. Which means we need an Italian Renaissance couple.

We need a fella and a lady. Do you want to name them for us? Who are our hot Italian couple? Oh, okay. Where are they off to, like, the opera? Is that a thing back then? Does that exist yet? Not quite yet.

Maybe a play? Yeah. The theatre. Let's make them quite, let's put them in the upper echelons of society. So they've got a bit of money. She's wearing something fabulous. I'm guessing.

Silk, lots of colour. Maybe like thick velvet. Like there's a bodice. Yeah, maybe some gold threads. Yeah, exactly. She looks fierce. Yeah. She's amazing.

Like, she's slaying. She's slaying. Her name is? Her name is Botticella. And then let's call him Angelo. Angelo. Oh, very good. Botticello and Angelo.

Oh, my God. You know, great, great couple. And they're off to the theatre. I love that. That's great. Okay, let's start their routine there. We start with hygiene. Oh, really?

Yeah. What type of washing do you think they're doing? Do you think they're doing everything shower? No, no. I'm not going to ask you that. No, because of this. French, but anyway, no, you're half French, so anyway. I'm half French, but I wouldn't go that far.

No, how are you imagining them getting clean? Everything showers or much more modest? I'm thinking more like a cloth and a big copper basin. Yeah, that's what I imagine. I'm probably staff washing their back next to a big fire. Let's place it in spring. That's nice for the story. It's spring, we've got some nice dapple, natural light coming through.

So big copper basing, buy a fireplace, which probably isn't lit because it's warm enough. People didn't have baths generally. Some really, really, really wealthy people had running water and had running baths in their house. But they were like maybe a bit above the echelon of Botticello. We're in a jukeletoe. You don't know Angelo. Angelou's in me. It's a great year.

But copper basin is good because you would have a copper basin to wash your hair in. Oh, well done, Tati. Very good. Often on a stand. And you'd have obviously some servants to bring in hot water for you. You don't do it yourself. You wouldn't do it yourself. But some people, because you didn't have baths at home,

you'd also go to the bathhouse often. And that might be as much as once a month, even in the summer, and spring, maybe less in the winter. So people would wash once a month. Well, they'd wash in the bathhouse month. Yeah, but they'd wash every day. And washing often involved rubbing your body with towels. Yes.

Quite a lot of rubbing your body with towels. so a lot of head health because they are worried that noxious vapours would build up in your head overnight. So in the morning... That's called a hangover, I think, isn't it? So in the morning, well, they're all drunk probably quite a lot of the time as well. You'd comb your hair very rigorously. You'd rub your head. You'd rub your face.

You'd have to blow your nose. You'd brush your teeth probably with a little cloth or some wood. And so you'd do something like that every day. They'd often be scented waters and you'd change your shirt. They're very, very into changing linen. and having fresh white linen. A couple of times a day, right, sometimes? Yeah, yeah.

So people would have, like, hundreds of shirts. Yeah. Even, like, poorest people would have 16 or 17 undershirts. I do need to bring up, actually, one thing that's slightly surprising. The medical advice of the time was water was dangerous. Baving was full immersion was dangerous. There's a famous story, the King of France is going to have a bath, and his doctor panics and races to his bedside to sort of say,

I need to, like, monitor you during this bath. Why? Why is water considered dangerous? Well, there's this idea that the skin of the body is very porous. And so if you open your pores in any way, it means that diseases can come into your body. And so things like malaria, for example, or plague were thought to spread, go into your body through your pores, through your skin. And so being hot and having open pores was a way to catch disease. There's still very much in some cultures now, you know, in Italy, for example, going swimming when it's a

all cold, you know, under like 24 degrees or something like that is still frowned upon. So there's still this idea that if you get wet, you allow these bad things to come into your body. Because, of course, there's no really real understanding of bacteria. No. They do understand quarantine, that you can quarantine. It's an Italian word, right? Yeah, it's from Venice.

Yeah. When they make ships that are coming in, stay outside the city for 40 days. 40 days, quarantine, yeah. To stop the plague largely and other things going into the city. The Romans obviously were huge bavers. They built these incredible thermite, these big bathhouses. And, of course, we have them in Rome. The bars of Caracalla are a very famous one you can visit today.

The Renaissance Italian fashion for bathing is a sort of harking back to the Roman bathing culture. But was it the same? Was it full nudity? Was it full men and women separated? What are we talking about? So in Italy, they were very impressed, first of all, by Roman ruins of baths and things. And they often had set up spars in the same, either using the Roman, what was left at the Roman, baths or on the same site because, you know, there's a lot of thermal springs in places like

Tuscany, for example. And they also read really avidly about Roman bathing culture, but they didn't do things like Eustrigils and things like that to scrape the skin like Romans did. So no olive oil scraping? No, not so much olive oil scraping. They were also really influenced by Islamic bathing practices. For the hammam? Yeah, and that kind of steam bath. They separated men and women very avidly like they do across the Mediterranean. There's some continuity with classical Rome and some changes. They also were really suspicious of things going on, skullduggery in the baths. Sexy stuff or criminal stuff?

Both. Oh, sexy criminal stuff, the best. When you think about it nowadays, sauna, it can be spicy. You've got to be careful which one you're walking into, you know. Saunas can be a lot of fun. So it was a very similar story Particularly I said these were same-sex spaces And so there was a lot of same-sex enjoyment

Going on in these spaces And a lot of boredy tales, a lot of nakedness Particularly female nakedness It was almost impossible to see women naked in Renaissance Italy Even in marriage you're meant to keep your undershirt on at all time Oh really? Oh yes There's some very interesting Renaissance erotica that ends up with a woman taking her shirt off after many other kinds of activities.

And so these are real centres for kind of at least torrid imagination and probably things going on in practice, bathhouses. A lot of stuff, illicit stuff went on. Okay, so there's an erotic element to the bathhouse, but it's a practical element too. Yeah, both. Getting clean, but you're also getting really dirty. Very good, Tathy. Well done.

So our couple, what was it, was it, a body? Lechella and Angelo. Yeah. Lovely. Okay. Are they shaving? Are they waxing? Or are they using the depolation cream?

What's... How do you get rid of body hair in the 16th century? And more specifically, Brazilian, Hollywood, just the sides. What are we working with here? What's bossy got going on down there? We are working with complete nudity. Oh. Complete baldness.

Oh, really? Wow. Yes. Okay. Everything off. Oh, everything off. This again is a... practice associated with Islamic bath bathing cultures.

And certainly in the Middle Ages, Crusaders would return with stories of having all their body hair shaven off in the baths. And this is very strange. But certainly by maybe the 13th century, you start to get recipes in southern Italy for a kind of Viet type cream to remove body hair. Oh, you don't know what's in it yet. Just wait. Yeah, Tati. Tatty, yeah, Vita, other products are available, of course, air removal cream. I'm physically in pain.

I'm anticipating, I'm empathising with these women that I've never met from hundreds of years ago, lathering their labia in a product. I mean, Vita's bad enough now, but back then, oh, God, these poor girls. Do you know what it's made of, Tattie? Go on. There's a recipe that Katarina Sfor gives, and this is a very common type of recipe, which has quicklime, arsenic and alum in it. And what you do is you make it into paste.

And you smear it onto your body, wherever you want hair removed, as it says in the recipe. And then you leave it for the time it takes to say the Lord's Prayer twice. And then you get a maid to throw water on you. So you wash it off. And it just say you should wait until it gets hot. and then remove it quickly before the flesh falls off. Yeah, I mean, quick lime is caustic.

Arsenic is a toxin. Yeah. Alam is a metal. And they're all going in your secret parts. That's not good. No. I thought the next part was going to be put this on and then eventually just die. Because that's a natural next step, isn't it?

But it is fascinating, I have to say, because obviously body hair is such a political thing now. What's your choice? And I felt like this was a first. time hearing that was even a subject matter before sort of this contemporary age. I thought it was something that was quite a new thing. But to hear that women have been suffering from this for hundreds of years, I'm going to leave here more feminist and more angry than what I came in. My job is done. Radicalised. That's not the only wacky ingredients in Renaissance era depolation cream tatty.

Other ingredients included cat feces. and eggs, hedgehogs. Are they just, I just, people are just having fun? Is it just like, let's see what we, let's see what we can stick on their labia before they start complaining? Surely not. And did it even, did it work? Well, unfortunately, I think the quick line probably did. I mean, it's going to remove skin, right?

It's going to remove too much everything. Asnick was used as a skin work name in medicine as well, and it was commonly used to kill as a kind of insecticide. Oh my God. So for all sorts of lice and things. So that was commonly used in medicine. And Quiklime is a very strong alkali, which is what Viet is effectively. So it does melt the hair off. And so, yeah, it would have worked.

I don't know, I don't think the cat poo would have worked. I just can't see that working. Or the antics, to be honest. Or the hedgehogs. I mean, some of these recipes are really impressive because they work really well. And others, you just read them and think, why? It wasn't like an actual full hedgehog where you use the prickles. as like a brush, was it?

You weren't like sort of like... These poor hedgehog. You were killing the hedgehog and you were using the blood, right? Or squishing it, yeah. Generally, you had to do horrible things to hedgehog before. Okay, okay. But can I just, can I just check in then? This body hair removal routine involving arsenic and caustic,

was this something that just the women were experiencing and were men also taking off their body? Yeah. Is Angelo also whipping it all off? There's so little evidence about men's like here we go. Has he got arsenic on his arson dick? That's what I want to know. So there's so little evidence about men and grooming. It's really hard to understand whether they remove their hair or not.

In terms of evidence, there's more evidence about women, right? And I can trace that in the recipes. Men, I read that in Holland, men removed all their body hair. I don't know why in Holland in like 16th and 17th century Holland. They're very tall. I don't know. That's all I know about the Dutch. They're very feminist, actually, at Dutch.

So probably for gender equality, I want to say. As far as I know in Italy, if you look at the sculpture of the time, like Michelangeles, David, for example, has very trim, neat-looking pubic hair. So there might have been some trimming involved. But I'm not sure about actual complete removal. All right, okay. I think that's unlikely.

The cat feces, my favourite. Not necessarily going on the genitals. Oh, no. It's actually going on the forehead. Do you know why, Tattie? I honestly can't a face mask Not no it's hair removal again Hair removal oh is it going to be for your eyebrows

It's not eyebrows that's a good shout It's a very high forehead was fashionable So what you cover your head Oh sorry For a second though I thought you meant It was to cover a high forehead No It's to give you a high forehead

To give you a high forehead So you want to well I mean you explain Jill You're better than this to me Right so if you look at portraits of women from especially the 15th century, they have a forehead that really just kind of goes, recedes. Keeps going. Yeah, just keeps going and going and going. And that's because a high forehead was associated with beauty, particularly a high forehead without any wrinkles in. It's a part of your face that you can really see the quality of your skin in. So they were really fashionable. So

women used to pluck their forehead, but she must have hurt so much, pluck their forehead or they used to use some of these dipilataries on their forehead as well as the rest of their bodies. So my fringe would be really, this is unthinkable. Horrible. Your fringe would be dreadful. No, no fringes back then. Your fringe would have been legally banned because there was a fashion in the 1480s in Venice for haircuts with a fringe. It was called the mushroom, the fun that, as you can imagine, for women.

I've had one of those. Yeah, and the government banned it because they said it made women look too much. like boys. My God, that's fascinating. But then what did women do after a breakup when they need to change their look? Yeah, exactly. Like, what do you do? We need to revamp. What was your equivalent of like, I need to change myself, panic, cut yourself a fringe? How did you have a breakdown?

Well, I mean, they went on to poison their husbands, but we can talk about that later. Okay, that makes that too sense. Let's talk about hair washing. So, you know, once you've removed all the hair from the forehead, you still want to keep some hair on the head. How are they keeping that clean, Jill? Well, this is where the copper basin comes in. Okay. So you'd lean over a copper basin and you'd have your maid bring in some kind of scented water or maybe some kind of shampoo, which is made with ashes.

So a lie into a soap or they use things like mallow. They had conditioners, things to make hair fuller bodied. And all of these, we've made some of these and they do are quite effective. But one of the issues in the period was how to dry your hair. Yes. Because once you've wet your hair, you don't have a hair dryer. In the winter, it could take ages. it could take days to wash and dry your hair.

And so Liquetia Borgia, who was, you know, the Pope's daughter. Yes, we did an episode in the Borgia. And the Governor Spoleto actually would get really hated going to these social events that she had to go to and she'd say, you know, I'm washing my hair. I've simply got to wash my hair. Absolutely. I love that. No, but also, look, I mean, nowadays, you know, wash day and which day do I wash? I've got to go to the gym, if I go to the gym, don't wash before, to wash afterwards.

It takes a couple of hours. Last night I slept with a hair mask on. I get it. And I actually think that is something we need to bring back. Yes. Okay, that is a completely socially acceptable reason to not turn up to an event. I can't come to work today. It's wash day.

My hair is still wet. I will be sat by the fire for the next seven hours, just trying to work through this humidity. Fair enough. So that's Lucrezia Borgia, the notorious poisoner. And hair care guru. Yes, exactly. So some of those hair sort of conditioners sound quite nice. I mean, some of them had chamomile in them and sage.

Quite nice, right? Some of them less so. My list includes bears fat, bats blood, burnt lizards, burnt mules, crushed hedgehogs, crushed insects. So when I hear that list, I do start to understand the association between women and witches because that sounds like a potion. Let's talk about just quickly the perfect hair that you would want. Like, you know, Angelo, let's talk about later on maybe, but Botticella, what hair does she aspire to have?

So in the Renaissance, it was believed that hair was a sign of your internal mixture of humours, the internal liquids that are made up your body, that determined health, determined personality. And so your hair could be a sign of what you were like inside. And this is true for men and for women. So men's hair should be dark, ideally. and women's hair should be thick, wavy and golden. Oh. I was hoping you were going to say pink. Yes, for the record, this.

Now, Tati has a lovely pink bob. Oh, you were calling out, but what's that? What humour is pink bob in Renaissance Italy? Well, they did talk about dyeing your hair red, and Marianella says, I don't know why women want to do this. They're so capricious. Capricious. Okay, I can get on that board. Okay.

But the reason why your pink hair would be some confused people is that they divide women into different grades depending on their appearance. This is very Joe Rogan. It's very manasphere, isn't it? It's very manifest. So there was a celebrity doctor called Juan Huarte. He was Spanish. And his book was translated into all different European languages. And he was explaining to men what kind of women they should marry, dependent on what they love.

looked like. And so, sorry about this, there's a grade one woman, has the lowest levels of coldness and dampness in the humeral terms, and she should be avoided. She's of great intelligence and ability. Oh, no. She never seed an argument, no matter how small it is. And she has dark and curly hair. The best women are grade two in the middle. They're beautiful, soft and gentle and they laugh easily. They're naturally, almost completely free of body hair. The hair they have is golden and wavy, and they're obedient by nature, of course, and they're very fertile as well. So that's the best kind of woman. And grade three women are fat with white and hairless skin, and they're foolish and ditsy, and they have platinum blonde hair.

Are these the in cells of the Renaissance? It's terrifying to realize that actually, in fact, it all makes sense. This is where Andrew Tate got his whole concept from. He's been reading some Renaissance literature. It's a hoarded, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. It's coming straight back round, isn't it? Okay, so we've got three levels of women. This is history's heroes.

People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone, including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War. You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex Fontaine. Sonsleman for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes, wherever you get your podcasts. That curly-haired women, intelligent, stay away.

Women with blonde hair, dixie. It's just, it's the Marilynne Audrey Hepburn before Marilynne and Audrey Hepburn. It's fascinating. Okay, so Jill, if the blonde golden curls are the optimum hair, Presumably there are a lot of dodgy dye jobs going on, women, you know, with darker hair going, I've got to look like a Botticelli painting. Of course. In Venice, particularly they were really famous. Women were really famous for bleaching their hair.

They had special straw hats that had a big brim and no middle so that you could take your hair outside it without getting burnt in the sun. Oh, I see. And they'd sit on their balconies. Like a tennis cap almost. Yeah. Yeah. And they'd sit on their balconies and they'd put a mixture of kind of bleach on their hair.

They'd sit all day and wait for it to be bleached. And it was really common to do that in Venice. Both men and women used black hair dye for going grey. So they'd cover up greys. Great. They'd use lead combs and things to make their hair dark again. And that probably worked as well. Otherwise, they had various recipes for dye, some of which were less likely to work.

So there was one where you had to put sunflower seeds in breast milk that was fed a male child and leave it to soak for 10 days. That's actually, that's actually, that's. That's what I use. Okay, okay. And your hair looks lovely. Yeah, yeah, it works. It did say it was for a pink. Yeah.

Okay, so Angelo and Botticella, they are, they've got washed, they're clean, they've done their hair. Now it's on to the skincare routine. Right. What are you imagining? Korean style 11-step beauty? Yeah, I mean, to be honest, nowadays, I can't even keep up with skin care routines. I take makeup off and then I put a cream on. So I'm probably not the right reference.

They might even have something more complicated than that. something like a vegetable oil, avocado paste on the face. I mean, based on what we've heard so far, maybe some cat poo in there as well. A hedgehog for like expoliation. I feel like I'm really starting to get the hang of this renaissance skincare life. Yeah, like something along those lines, maybe a bit of arsenic, because if there's no poison, there's no peril. If there's no peril, it's not any skincare routine, is it? It's not a skincare routine if you're not going to maybe die from it, is it? Take it away. well of course you're completely right

no they did so they did have kind of complex routine so you'd start at night the night before you'd cleanse your skin and that could be something like bran or breadcrumbs mixed with scented water so that a little bit of exfoliation and then you'd have a treatment

and that would depend on what kind of skin you had so you might include vinegar was quite popular if you've got greasy skin or nettle tonic if you've got red skin because nettle does actually stop inflammation or a whitener and that would obviously include mercury

and arsenic. And also snail slime was also used Which is back in Africa right? I mean we used to laugh on horrible histories we used to go ha ha ha snail slime And now it's like 300 quid for a pot So they were ahead of their time And you'd sleep with that on And then in the morning you'd wash that off

And then you'd maybe put some moisturiser on And then make up So pretty good actually in the skincare routine Yeah yeah I have a head Okay, I respect the skincare routine. Apart from the arsenic bleaching of the skin. Yeah, sorry, but that's just, that's just, you know, part of course at this point. Was it like Victorian times where paler skin meant you were richer?

You know, pale skin good, darker skin means you work in the sun, you must be a peasant. Yeah, because of course, beauty ideals have to be hard to achieve. You know, what's the point of beauty ideals that are easy to achieve? It's just take a moment to really think about that. Because that's an important thing. you've just said, yeah, that's very true. And most women worked outside. You know, most women were working as agricultural workers,

like they have done kind of throughout history. And so having paler skin was a sign of being elite and elite woman. But there was also a racialized element. You know, in the 16th century in Italy, we do have an awful lot of African enslaved people in Italy, right? Yeah. So there's been slavery in Italy since classical times. It's continuous more so than in other places in Europe. And from the mid-15th century, you start to get a lot of slaves

some sub-Saharan Africa, particularly female slaves who work in the house. And there's a fashion amongst some of the elites like Isabella Desti, who is the Marchioness of Mantua. She says to her agent in Venice, can you get me a young black slave child as black as possible so that she looks whiter in comparison. So this is a little girl of about four. Like an accessory. Yeah, yeah. And then around 1520, aristocratic women start to be painted in portrait.

it's alongside black servants or slaves, really is a contrast to make their skin look paler. My God. That's horrible. It is horrible. Okay. Let's move on to something equally horrible, a different kind of horrible,

white lead on the face. It's famous from the Elizabeth I first portraits. If you've seen the Margot Robbie movie, Mary Queen Scott. I mean, that's bad, right? That's going to rot your face. You know, makeup historians have a problem with Margot Robert. No, surely not. Margo's beloved. How dare you? Not Margo. I mean, we do adore Margo Robbie, but her portrayal is Elizabeth.

The first, because one of the problems with white lead is that you can't actually use it, right? So people can't use, because we know it's poisonous. They knew it was not very good for you in the Renaissance as well. But recently there's been a project in Master University in Canada where they've got a nuclear physics lab so they can use white lead and they've put it on pig skin to see what it looks like. Right. And actually it's not that kind of thick white paste that you see in the portraits of Elizabeth. It's actually translucent and it's light scattering. You know like light scattering foundations that you get today? Yeah.

And it's a creamy colour. Yes, it's not bright, it's not bright white or very opaque. So the idea of what Elizabeth the first looked like is partly from the portraits, but largely from using titanium dioxide as a replacement for white lead. And it's just not a very good replacement. I see. So the actual white lead, based on what we now know, thanks to these poor pigs, is actually something a lot lighter and a lot softer than what we've seen.

And reflective. And reflective. But still very dangerous. I mean, it still kills you. Right. Okay, good. But does it do the job well. But, you know, they had replacements for white lead even in the Renaissance.

So marble dust, for example. Oh. And I brought along a marble dust foundation for you to try. Egg white as well was used, wasn't it? Egg white. They used in a lot of different kinds of things. of makeup and add a little bit of a sheen to your face. And egg white was used on the hair too, wasn't it?

Yeah, I mean, they use eggs in everything. They're readily available and they're quite inexpensive. Okay. Let's talk about cosmetics and let's try some cosmetics. I think it's time now for us to turn ourselves into guinea pigs a little bit and try some of this stuff. And by the magic of radio, I am now transformed into a Renaissance era beauty. And just to be clear, none of the stuff we are putting on our faces today is poisonous. We've checked. Jill, what am I wearing on my face? It smells delicious.

First of all, you have Renaissance rose balm, which is very delicious smelling. It's just quite normal. It's like lip balm with beeswax. And that's actually something that I would use, actually genuinely use today. Then there's some things that you might not use. There's an anti-wrinkle cream with lamb fat. Needed, yeah. Not at all. And frankincense. and which normally also contains mastic, which is another kind of tree gum.

And those have been found to have vitamin E, antioxidants in, things like that. So they could actually affect wrinkles. Some of this Renaissance makeup is effective. And then you've got what is really great about your look is the foundation, which is made of marble dust because white lead is frowned upon nowadays. I wonder why. I wonder why. So it's made of violet oil and rose water, which smells nice, right?

It smells good. It's made you quite white. But you've also got beautiful rosy cheeks made with red sandalwood, which we're hoping we'll be able to wash off, but Mitch may stay. Yeah. No one told me the sandalwood would be staining the cheeks. I would run with it. It's really, it's the hero of what's happening on your face right now. It's giving Met Gala.

It's giving the Oscars. It's giving Greg in a whole different light. Thank you. If it doesn't wash off, I think you can make this work. Okay. Okay, okay. Let's get back to Angelo and Botticella, our influencers, they're off to the theatre. They're doing the getting ready. I just want to ask about hairstyles, right? So we know that she needs to have golden hair. But how is she wearing it? Up, down, in a do, in a do, there's always a do. You never wear hair completely loose in this period unless you're just about to get married or just married and then you're allowed to wear it loose down your back. Otherwise, that's the sign of, it can be a sign of madness or illness or being really transgressive. Okay.

So as soon. Tattie's giggling. I sat here with my pink hair down. She's crazy. Watch out. But women were really creative with their hair styles and so, and often used to have the same hairstyle to show that they were kind of part of a gang. So if you look at portraits from the Milanese court in the early 16th century, like portraits by Leonardo da Vinci, they all have this big long plat that goes down their back. and a hair net that goes across their forehead.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. That was a fashion associated with Beatrice of Aragon and they all started to wear it. And then as soon as you get to about the 15-10s, it goes. Nice. And how do you curl your hair? I'm naturally curly, I don't have to ask,

but like how would a lady curl her hair if it was straight and she wanted the ringlets? Hot spoons. Oh. So if you imagine what tongs are like now, you'd heat spoons up and then you'd curl your hair round it and maybe use gum Arabic as a setting lotion. Oh, okay, some curl cream.

Yeah, yeah. So what I'm getting here is that really actually women didn't have a lot of time outside of doing their hair and makeup and making the potions. When we ask ourselves, what were the big challenges to women education, just generally having careers, I suppose, curling your hair with spoons. It's probably up there, right? Yeah, it's quite time intensive, isn't it? I mean, that's why you'd have all your servants, I guess.

I forgot about that, yes. Of course, yeah, servants. And what about Angelo? Is he clean-shaven? Is he, I mean, has he got a beard like me, short and cropped? Does he got a long beard, get a Leonardo da Vinci-styly? Well, it really depends on when Angelo was about, because there's a big change in fashions for beards

between the 15th and 16th centuries. So in Italy, they associate beards with peacetime, and they associate them with Republican governments. And so in Florence, for example, everyone was clean-shaven until the Mediterranean family come back to rule the city, as dukes in the about the 1530s when everyone has a nice little beard. Okay.

And some people really, and there's portraits of beards that are very, very curly and very, very well kept. So people had beard oil, people dyed their beards. But by the time you're getting to the 16th century, everyone has a beard.

So Greg would be just absolutely in fashion. Few. Wow. I'm hot to trot, but ready to mingle. Absolutely. I think Angelo would have a moustache. Oh.

Ah. I think he, I think Angela would have a moustache. and possibly a beard. Yes. I think if people, I had just a mustache, people might point and laugh at him. Yes. If you insist on historical accuracy,

even though he's my fantasy man, but sure. What about shapewear? You know, what about underwear, you know, the clothes you wear under your clothes, the things that are, you know, if they're going for the perfect body,

you talked before about the hourglass coming in, how are they achieving that? Yeah, skims, spanks. What are we working with? No spanks at all. In fact, no knickers, no. Oh! Wow.

Hello. Man, go. So men would wear. There's actually archaeological remains of pants that men would wear. Historical pants. Historical pants. That would have a little nifty tie at the side. Okay.

But women didn't wear pants at all. No. And actually if they did wear pants, that was thought to be a bit raunchy because it was like they were men. Oh, oh. Okay. So what you're saying is. is that we've already heard that you could have an entire intercourse of the woman and the peak of the eroticism was the point in which she takes off her shirt.

After having had sex with someone, it's the nudity. She could be completely naked. You could see her fanny and that would be less sexy than if she had a pair of shorts on. Yes. Well, you know, each to their own. But can I ask a very specific question? If they're not wearing knickers, what do they do when they have their periods? Well, they don't leave the house.

I mean, this is one of the... Sorry. A lot of this history is about controlling women and their activities. We know about menstrual rags, don't we? We have allusions to it. They use rags and they use... So, yeah, there's certainly just rolled at rags. There's cotton wool that can be used as well.

In terms of bras. I mean, so women are going commando on the pants front, but what about support for the bosom? Well... That's my Radio 4 voice. Support for the bosom. So it used to be thought that bras were invented in the 19th century. But then in 2008, there was an archaeological find where they found there's a false wall in a castle in Austria.

Yeah. Yeah, in Lemberg Castle in the Tyrol in Austria. They found lots of linen had been stuffed in there. And they found a bra, which is known as breastbags. And then I'm like... Two bags that are designed to lift and separate. So you have that. And then in the 16th century...

Sorry, I can't just skim over the boob sets. So lift and separate. Yes. Yeah. So if you look at these bras, they're cotton and they've got a big kind of bodice underneath. And then these... I mean, they're separate kind of bag shapes that would pull your bosom. You'd really make it go in two.

So it looks like you've got... breasts kind of here. Oh, so really high up. Really high up. Okay. Yes. On either side. On either side.

Near your ears. So that's two bosoms on view, but quite high. But there's also the kind of mono. The monobosom. Yes. Not the monob brow, the mono boob. So, yeah. So later on, again, this is fashions of bodies and fashions of clothing.

Later on, you get the monobosom, which is a term from fashion history, honestly, where you get a very bodice that's very stiff and made, made stiffer with cardboard and it kind of squishes your boobs in to make it look like you just are completely flat really and triangular. Okay. Was there any kind of moral backlash to all this? We've heard about, you know, some of the kind of fear that women were deceiving men and what are you? Was there any kind of like haters in the comments section? You know, when we've got Angelo and Botticello and going out, are there people going like, oh, God, this is awful and disgusting and immoral and God would be ashamed. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, well, all the way

through, but particularly as the Counter-Reformation in Italy, comes into force in the later 16th century and in England all the way through. People are saying that cosmetics are lies, that's deceitful, that women are vain, they're spending all their money on cosmetics. Yeah, I know it's depressing. And that they're kind of changing the face that God gave them and that it's a moral. So a lot of kind of misogyny, general misogyny, is bound. up in cosmetics use. Really, the grand area of cosmetics runs through the 16th century and then it kind of tails off as you get into the 17th century.

And we also have this fear that women are poisoning their husbands with their makeup, right? I mean, this is a thing. It happens. It is actually true, yeah. It has happened, yeah. Amazing. So they trick their husbands into marrying them by using makeup and then they use the makeup to kill them.

I mean, you sound like just like a Renaissance priest. I'm really on. I'm really on board with it. I'm like, how can both the back? How can the tool of oppression both be the tool of empowerment? Wonderful. There we go. Feminism for the win.

I'm going to lead the witches. I'm so into this era. There's a story actually for a 15-year-old murdering her siblings with her. So not just a hubby, but she bumps off her siblings. Yeah, so this is a, she didn't mean to murder her sibling. So women know that this stuff is poisonous. They keep it generally under lock and key. And so she got some face whitener from her mum's box

because they wanted to send her to a convent and she didn't want to go. And so she tried to poison the entire family. She put some of this facebite nut onto some salad and they all ate it and they're all ill but her siblings died. And so there's a report of her witness statement and her conviction in the Florentine archives.

And then later on, the Aquitifana murders were very, very notorious in the 17th century where they reckon like hundreds of men, of husbands generally were killed by women using face. cream. So they put this face assignment into their husband's food or drink and they'd kill them slowly

over a matter of weeks. And they set up a sting operation to find out this woman. They tricked, yeah, they sent someone along trying to buy some of the poison. And in fact, she was an agent of the Roman police in disguise. And then the person who

the poisoner sold her it and they kind of swooped out and arrested her. Wow. That's amazing, isn't it? Just very quickly, mentioned men dieting. We know of one particular famous aristocrat who was murdered because he wasn't wearing his under armour. He didn't want to look fat, right? It was a dick in Milan and they advised him to put on his reinforced doublet and he said, no, no, it makes me to look too fat. And then he went to mass in church and he was stabbed to death. So, yeah, so really people did die for beauty.

The cost of beauty. There we go. Church is right. The vanity is a deadly sin. The nuance window! Okay, so I think it's time for us to get to the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Tati and I sit quietly in front of the mirror and fix our makeup, or I try and remove mine anyway, for two minutes while Professor Jill enters the dressing room to tell us something we need to know about Renaissance beauty. My stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Jill.

Okay, so stories about past cosmetic use can be delightful and they can be funny, but they mask some pretty serious history. How we look isn't governed just by our genes, but is mutable. A complex towing and throwing between external forces, such as food availability, types of work, our environment, and the choices we make to look after and adorn our bodies, hair and faces. It's only recently that historians have realised that the history of cosmetic and hygiene practices

is no mere amusing side quest, but reveals much about the concerns, assumptions and prejudices of the past. Cosmetic recipes and ideas spread across cultures are shaped by trade, fashion and colonialism. Assumptions about ideal beauty are steeped in preconceptions of gender, race and class, prejudices against people typically based on their appearance alone. Cosmetics are often criticised as they thought attempts to read in a character through external appearance. So large-scale historical shifts play out in our bathroom mirrors and affect how we understand our own bodies in relationship to the world. The history of beauty allows us to empathise with people in distant times and places, recognise their vanities, their frailties, their hopes and their fears.

In a patriarchal society like Renaissance Europe, and let's face it, most past societies, women's hope of social progress or financial well-being was typically dependent on the goodwill of men. Looking your best was less vanity than necessity. Inventing and applying cosmetics was often associated with poorer women, people who are typically illiterate so don't turn up in historical sources, and if they do only in court records. Reconstructing cosmetic recipes has given us a rich insight into these women's ingenuity. They're cleverness in making ends meet,

their understanding of what we now call science and their social networks. Compared to military history, say, are the biographies of great men. The history of beauty gives us a window into a multiplicity of experiences and a chance to remember lives that have been frequently disparaged or dismissed.

Thank you so much. Wonderful. Really interesting. Yeah. It is easy, I think, to sort of think, no, make it, you know, whatever. It's really interesting. Yeah, it really is because I think it's,

it also reminds us, and it's still a conversation we have now on social media, especially about how dismissive people can be about makeup, people doing makeup, and there's very much attitude like, oh, God, you've got nothing better to do with your time. And that actually how much of women's history is linked to that industry, sometimes not even by choice, but how dismissing it like that sort of doesn't allow us to hear those voices and that existence and what they were up to. So thank you for bringing it to the table.

You're welcome. Thank you. And thank you for smearing it on my face. Anytime. Absolutely. So what do you know now? It's time now for the So What Do You Know Now? This is our quick fire quiz for Tati to see how much she has learned and remembered.

I mean, we've talked about an awful lot of stuff, Tattie. How are you feeling on the confidence level? I feel confident because I have been listening very closely. I was fascinated. Thank you for it. I leave feeling invigorated, but and also quite, I guess, angry. Okay, that's fair. I feel like I want to go and march into the makeup counter of John Lewis and say,

and this is feminism. And what you are doing is God's work. Some poor woman who's just trying to sell me a nice lipstick. No, but seriously, your job is vital. Okay, we've got ten questions for you. Here we go. Question one. were baths considered to be potentially dangerous?

My first thought, right me and hearing your question, was the answer will be cat poo. Let me, why were baths considered potentially dangerous? Ah, because being too clean meant that stuff could get in your paws. Yes, that's right. That grind was protective. That's right. Question two. What harsh ingredients were common in hair removal creams?

I think we've covered, oh, it was that stuff you use on walls. Right, first of all, arsenics in there. Yes, yeah, arsenic, yeah. And the other one is caustic, caustic, and arsenic. Quicklam, caustic, very good. You could have had cat feces, of course. Cat feet, of course, hedgehogs, sorry, the list goes on. Question three, what kind of hair was considered the most beautiful in Renaissance Italy?

It was, well, in my opinion, of course, short, dark, pink, anything that would make you wild unruly. But I suppose for men of that period, it was those very docile of women. So they would have liked them blonde, blonde, blonde, pattern blonde. And curly, curly, yeah, very good, lovely. Like a cherub. Question four, what was the name of Giovanni Marinello's best-selling beauty book from 1562? Do you remember the name? What was the name of that book?

I don't know, probably something like, listen, women. Listen, behave, slap some arsenic on. Here's some lead for the face. I can't. Lead and cat poo for you. I think that was the subtitle. The main title was Ornaments of Ladies. Ornaments are quite, yes, of course. Question five. What toxic ingredient was commonly found in foundations? Lead.

It was white lead. And as we heard, it was light scattering, which was quite surprising. Question six, what hygiene-related excuse did Lecretia Borgia used to get out of social engagements? I'm so sorry. I won't be able to make it. My hair's wet. Very good. I'm washing my hair from like three. days. Question seven. What kitchen utensil was used to curl hair? A spoon. A hot spoon. A hot spoon. Question eight. What was the name of a bra like contraption worn by Renaissance women? The mono bra. That's right. The mono. Oh, the boob. The boob bag. That's right. The breast bag and the mono boob. Very good. Question nine. How did a 15 year old from Sienna poison her siblings?

She, yeah, she used her mum's makeup. Yeah. She went and got it. out the cupboard. But to be fair, they did want to send it to a convent. And I can relate. I mean, no, I can't relate. But like, I could, but you know, yeah. That's right. Yeah, mother's face cream in the salad, I think. Question 10. This is for nine out of ten, a very strong score. Which haircut was banned by the Venetian government. Which makeup was banned? Correct, which haircut? Which haircut? Oh, the mushroom fringe. Yes, very good. The mushroom hair. The old fungi fringe. Thank you. What do I won?

You have won a year supply of white lead. You've won a year supply of sheep's tallow, face cream and marble mush. Well done. Nine out of ten, really good. Thank you so much, Tati. Thank you so much, Professor Jill. Listener, if you want more on historical beauty standards, check out our episode on the history of high-heel shoes.

It's an absolute classic from back in the day. And also, we did one on hair care entrepreneur, Madam C.J. Walker. And for more on Renaissance Italy, why not listen to our episode on The Borgias? They were absolutely wild. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to Your Dead to Me on BBC Sounds

to get episodes 28 days earlier than on any other app and make sure to switch on your notification so you never miss an episode. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We had the brilliant Professor Jill Burke from University of Edinburgh. Thank you, Jill. Thank you.

And in Comedy Corner, we have the truly terrific Tati McLeod. Thank you, Tati. Thank you. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we rifle through the bathroom cabinet of another historical subject. But for now, I'm off to go and find enough bats to keep my curly locks looking luscious.

Please don't report me to any animal rights groups. Your Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4 Hello, Russell Kane here. I used to love British history, be proud of it, Henry the 8th, Queen Victoria, massive fan of stand-up comedians, obviously Bill Hicks, prior, that has become much more challenging, for I am the host of BBC Radio 4's Evil Genius, the show where we take heroes and villains from history and try to work out, were they evil or genius? Do not catch up on BBC Sounds by searching Evil Genius if you don't want to see your heroes destroyed. But if like me, you quite enjoy it, have a little search.

Listen to Evil Genius with me, Russell Kane, go to BBC Sounds and have your world destroyed. This is History's Heroes, people with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone, including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War. You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex von Tunselman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcast. podcasts.