You're Dead to Me - Saladin

Episode Date: October 25, 2019

You might have learned about Richard the Lionheart in school (or from Disney’s Robin Hood), but how much do you know about his opponent, the legendary Saladin? Why does Saladin have such an enduring reputation as a good guy? Host Greg Jenner is joined by comedian Maria Shehata and historian Professor Jonathan Phillips. It’s history for people who don’t like history! Produced by Dan Morelle Scripted and researched by Emma Nagouse, assisted by Emily Greenwell.A Muddy Knees Media production for BBC Radio 4

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. All day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, a history podcast for people who don't like history, or at least people who forgot to learn any at school. My name is Greg Jenner, I'm a public historian, author, and I'm the chief nerd on the BBC comedy show Horrible Histories. How does this podcast work? Well, every episode I'm joined by a five-star historian and a rising star of comedy. Come for the historical expertise, stay for the lols. Today we are travelling back to the medieval Middle East to meet one of the Islamic world's most famous warriors, Saladin. And joining me today in

History Corner is a professor of crusading history at Royal Holloway University of London. He's the author of numerous books, including a recent biography of Saladin, which is pretty handy. You literally wrote the book on it. It is, of course, Professor Jonathan Phillips. Hi, Jonathan. How are you? Hi, Greg. Nice to be here. Thanks for coming. And in Comedy Corner, she's an award-winning Egyptian-American comedian who swum across the Atlantic to come live with us Brits.

Yes, all of us, one by one. She's the co-host of the Frank podcast about relationships. You may have seen her on BBC's period dramas, on Channel 5, on comedy release viral dating videos, horror stories, pretty nasty. It is the wonderful Maria Shahata. Hi, how are you? Hello. Good, good. I swam across the Atlantic. You swam all the way, didn't you? Me and my Michael Phelps body just made it here. And how are you with history in general, Maria?

I don't know a thing. Nothing at all? I'm so bad with history. Are you like a sort of Fresh Prince of Bel-Air and everything before that is like a wasteland of nothingness? Kind of. I just, I didn't pay attention in history class. I just didn't, I don't, I was never really interested. But it was always because it was dry.

It was just, you know, well, I didn't like math or history or geography. I didn't like school. What did you like? It wasn't just history. It was everything. What did I like? That's a good question. Why did I end up a comedian?

I didn't like anything else. I like telling jokes. All right. And you have Egyptian heritage. Have you heard of Saladin before? No. Because he's a big deal in Egyptian history. No.

No. No. Was he like around the pyramids time? No later than the pyramids so we pyramids we're talking three three and a half thousand years ago four thousand years ago and saladin we're talking 800 years ago so very much later although the pyramids were still there yeah they didn't knock them down bits of the smaller ones actually he dismantled the pyramid some of the smaller ones not not obviously not the big ones because they're still there but some of the smaller ones, actually. He dismantled the pyramid? Some of the smaller ones. Not obviously not the big ones, because they're still there. But some of the smaller ones, he took the stone

to try and rebuild the walls of Cairo. Wow. Well, all right, we're off to a start. There could have been more pyramids. There could have been more pyramids until Saladin turned up. All right, well, you learn something new every day. So, what do you know? This is a section where I have a go at guessing what you might know about Saladin,

and I'm guessing you don't know that much. I mean, you might know about the Crusades, because you've probably seen Robin Hood movies, and maybe you've seen Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. But Saladin, maybe not so much. I mean, he does appear in Ridley Scott's Kingdom of Heaven, which is a big old movie. He's a sort of noble adversary in that. He's sort of a bad guy, but he's sort of not really a bad guy.

And that speaks to his reputation. He is known throughout the Islamic world as a hero. He is known in the West as a sort of pretty stand-up guy. But is that PR? I mean, that's the question. Is it all sort of myth and propaganda? Or is this guy legit a decent leader? So we're going to find out.

Right, Maria. Have you heard of the Crusades? Okay, so this is sort of embarrassing. Is it when the Christians came and tried to take over everything? Yeah, that's pretty much it. Okay. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. You've got it. You've got it. Jonathan, can you just talk us through... I mean, there are loads of Crusades.

There are. I mean, I have arguments with historians about how many there are. We definitely get to at least nine. It's the fast and the furious movies they just keep making them but when was the first crusade and how does that sort of impact into the world of saladin first crusade is launched in 1095 by pope urban ii in france the knighthood of western europe are inspired to go and try and recover the Holy Land to recover Jerusalem for the Christian faith. And after four years, a great expedition, they get into Jerusalem as a terrible slaughter of the Muslim and Jewish defenders of the city. But at the end of that, it's back in Christian hands and they establish what we call the Crusader States, which are kind of a series of territories that they hold in the Near East.

So the Muslims and Jews were like they're living there happily together until the Christians came in. There are Muslim and Jewish people living in the city of Jerusalem in 1099. Yeah. OK. And then a slaughter arrives. Yeah. Yeah. And the Westerners come in because they've been on the march for two or three years.

There's been an awful lot of propaganda in Western Europe saying these terrible people are polluting the holy places and it's your duty as Christians to remove them. I mean, the Crusaders are also doing, a small number are doing it for land, but most of them go home because they're tired and exhausted. But some people have got to stay and set up the Crusader States. They're also doing it for things like honour. I mean, it's sort of knighthood is coming through and that's all about being the great hero in battle and kind of the great figure at the front. OK. So during Saladin's childhood, there's the Second Crusade. Yeah.

That one goes very badly. That doesn't succeed at all. Disaster of a sequel. That's the sort of French and the German kings who they turn up with a big old army and then just chaos. They're convinced they're going to win because the First Crusade succeeded. And they don't want to sort of let the memory of their forefathers down, but it doesn't work. They try and besiege Damascus, which is a city that Saladin is in at the time,

as a young man. Well, let's introduce him then. Let's meet him. So he's born, we think, 1137 or 8, give or take 12 months either side. And he's born into Crete in Iraq. Yeah, he only lives there for a small number of months. You know, he basically grows up around Damascus, as far as we can tell. Okay. And that's one of

the great cities of the world. Sadly, today, obviously such a difficult place. But it is a real sort of intellectual powerhouse in the 12th century. Wonderful, wonderful city. So if he grew up in Iraq or Damascus? He was born in Iraq, in a sort of very equestrian society. He's Kurdish. And then he just sort of took a basket on the river to Damascus. Or wait, that was Moses. Yeah. No, his family got a... The Kurds are really good horsemen, really good warriors. And so the Turkish rulers of Syria employ them in their armies. And so Saladin's uncle and his dad, particularly his uncle, are really great warriors. And they're employed to do a lot of the sort of fighting.

Oh, he's like a military child. Effectively, yeah. He's an army brat. Yeah, he's an army brat. That's what I meant to say. Yeah. So he's just running around, like, not running around, but he's been taken from city to city. Riding around, in fact, yeah.

Riding around. Cool. Okay. He's growing up, and the enemy are essentially other Christians because they've arrived, crusades, bad, awful slaughter. But actually the various Muslim states don't really get on very well either. There's the Sunni and Shia sort of dispute and then there are just

political disputes. I mean, this is a sort of time of like 24-7 political chaos, isn't it? It is, yeah. It's really complicated. It's a very sort of melting pot of religions and cultures in the Near East, as now at the time. And the Muslim world is very divided. As you said, the Sunni Shia, lots of sort of small regional lordships.

And once the sort of the Christians or the Franks, as we call them, are established there, they start making alliances with some Muslim rulers. And you have Christians and Muslims fighting Christians and Muslims, which really kind of cuts against the kind of clash of civilizations narrative that's so easy to frame things in then. And more particularly now. So it's a really sort of mixed up picture. But there's a man called Nur ad-Din who is a sort of powerful Turkish warlord. And he really starts drawing together the ideas of jihad and the counter crusade taking a religious fight to throw the christians out of jerusalem okay and he is he's a young man of the muslim faith so he is an observant muslim he is you know spiritual he's not really into the sort of party scene you know even though he's a young guy but how does he i mean actually maria can you guess how he chooses

to relax how i just see him like sort of like Cleopatra-ing it with like being like held up by other men and just being fed grapes and like feathers. No? Weird. Definitely, definitely not. Is that what you do? Is that what you're looking for? That's what I do. I just figured we were kind of the same. Probably not.

He does like winding down, as Saladin does, by playing polo. These men are obsessive polo players. They're equestrian. They've been kind of semi, almost like born in the saddle. They've been riding from such a young age, and they love playing polo. Sorry, is polo the one where you have the horse and the board? You've got, yeah.

Like a mallet. Long mallet. A mallet. Yeah, and then it's sort of posh people play it here. Oh, okay. In the UK, it's for sort of upper-class white people, but in that part of the world, it's very much the sort of warrior class people play it here. In the UK it's for sort of upper class white people but in that part of the world it's very much the sort of warrior class who play. Yeah I mean

Nur-ud-Din even gets people to light candles on the sort of polo pitch so he can play it in the early evening as well. Which is pretty good if you've got the resource to do that. So he's YOLO for polo. He loves it. It's his favourite thing. But it gives you skills as a horseman. You're working together as a group, which is sort of like practice for a battle in another way. So he's not actually relaxing. That's not relaxing, that's just prepping for more war. It's training. You need to teach him how to relax.

No, no, no, you've got to get... Grapes. Grapes. That's not where I was going, but I was like, oh wait, this is BBC. Sure. You've mentioned Nur ad-Din, who is, as you say, a Turkish leader, warrior, kind of starting to bring together these city-states. And Saladin comes into his orbit and is, I guess, learning the game from him.

He's learning the political... And the religious. That's the political-religious environment he grows up in. It's sort of an apprenticeship, almost, for leadership. It is in some respects, yeah. Nur ad-Din is taking the fight to the Franks. He's beginning to take them on, defeat them in battle, and he's providing this intellectual energy for the counter-crusade.

And Saladin's family, particularly his uncle, is one of Nur ad-Din's leading warriors. And his uncle's called Shirkuh. Shirkuh, yeah. Known as an extremely fat man. Short, cataract in one eye and immensely large. Right.

Do you think if his father and his uncle weren't into, like weren't in the military that he would have even gotten into this whole thing? But if they were accountants he would have just been an awesome accountant.

He could have been. You're right. I don't have an answer to that. But yeah, the family really are sort of leading governors, administrators and warriors. And so that's where he gets the apprenticeship and is mixing with those kind of people. Is it a meritocracy, though? If he'd been crap at it, would they have gone, actually, you're not what we need. Definitely. Because there's an occasion where he really rises to power in Egypt in 1169, where the Syrian Muslims are trying to get hold of Egypt because it's incredibly wealthy

and they want that to springboard their attack against the crusaders. And they managed to take power there. Shirkou is made the ruler of Egypt. And three months later, he eats too much and dies. There you go. That's how you relax. Oh, you eat yourself a day. Terminally, terminally.

Well, so how did they just take over Egypt? You said it was really wealthy, right? So how did they... Good question. The rulers of Egypt were the Fatimid dynasty. They were a Shia dynasty as well. So you've got that Sunni, the Syrian Sunnis, and the Fatimid Shia in Egypt.

They had just become very complacent. The organisation of the country had begun to sort of disintegrate a bit uh they kind of lost focus essentially and people can see that they're kind of it's like a tempting target and so that the crusaders are trying to get it and the syrian muslims are trying to get it too because the wealth of egypt with the the nile trade routes gold coming up from west africa is. So it's a kind of tempting prize to go for. And the Syrian Muslims with Shurka leading the army

get it. But you asked Greg about the meritocracy. Yeah. And when Shurka dies, you need to choose somebody to take over. And so there are a number of candidates and it's Saladin that they choose. Okay. So it's not like he's just sort of number one on the list. They're like, come on, he's got to go to that guy because he's related. They do think, no, he's competent.

Yeah, I mean, and astoundingly competent as it turns out. Because you're a fairly young man. We don't know much about his career to that point. And suddenly you've got to effectively rule Egypt. I mean, the challenge that you face, you've got the Crusaders after you. You've got a lot of Egyptians who are clearly going to be unhappy you've taken over their country. You've got a whole sort of Western Europe potentially after you you've got a lot of egyptians who are clearly gonna be unhappy you've taken over their country you've got a whole set of the western europe potentially after you a whole of africa

to deal with two or parts of africa and he manages to survive prosper challenge his leader later and then challenge the franks i mean to me that's one of the most amazing things about him it's a pretty good cv i'm feeling pretty inadequate right now i've not done any of those things. The best thing I can achieve is that I'm quite good at Twitter. OK, well, Saladin, one of the things he was really good at was having a very strong group of people around him. And part of those were a sort of administrative group and they're great propagandists. So you say Twitter.

If that had existed in the 12th century, he would have had people on it putting out his message. Oh no, he's like Donald Trump. No. I really will draw the line there, in no respect. Alright, good. So, Shirkua dies, as you said, he ate himself to death, he ate too much shawarma,

which is a great way to die, but Saladin is a young guy. Yeah, early 30s. I mean, that's a lot. He wasn't that young back then. No, I guess not. No, he's old. So, I mean, that's a lot. He wasn't that young back then. No, I guess not. No, he's old. He's old. So, in a sense, I think they must have worked out that he was good. He's clearly good at dealing with people

because that's one of his great strengths throughout his career. I think why the family trusts him is that he's really good at keeping his family together. You look at so many contemporaries across Europe, people like Henry II of England, and the kids are fighting all the time. Richard, Henry, John, they're an absolute menace. Saladin's family, through

decades of fighting and struggle, they stick with him. And that's really one of his extraordinary strengths, that they're loyal to him. They see he's like their best shot. But his family stuck with him. Yeah, absolutely. My family, I don't know. I don't know if we'd survive.

They don't even like my comedy career. So if you were put in charge of Cairo, are they not turning up to help out? I mean, I don't know if they'd be supportive of that or not. But I know their support would help me like take over Egypt. That's the thing about parental support. You know, if like, okay, well, what Saladin does, he's very good at rewarding his family, Egypt is incredibly wealthy. And so one of his chief ways of operating is to be generous. It's like a compulsion. He is obsessively generous. That's the difference between us and me and him is I just take from my parents and I forget to give back. So that's probably where I went wrong. There's a clear distinction. So if you were ruler of Cairo, you would not be handing out the cash? No, I would probably still be asking my parents for money. What do you need it for? I don't know, can I have some? But what he's doing is he's putting these loyal family members in positions of power.

So in this kind of hostile environment, he can trust his family to do well. And he's called a vizier, that's his job title. It is early on, yeah. Do you know called a vizier. That's his job title. It is early on, yeah. Do you know what a vizier is, Maria? It sounds like something women use to support their... No, I don't know what it is. It's a brazier. Right?

He is not a boob. He is a... He's sort of... I mean, what's the equivalent? I mean, it's not king, is it? Because he's sort of running the show on... Chief minister. Chief minister.

So who's running the show top dog? Is there a sultan somewhere else? There's the Caliph. OK. The Fatimid Caliph of Cairo, who's a young man, and after a couple of years, he dies. Right. Of natural causes.

Sure. Unless you're an opponent of Saladin, in which case you say he did away with him. Probably was of natural causes. But that's very, very helpful, because it removes the figurehead however much limited his real power was it then means that you know he's out of the way Saladin is then absolutely the ruler of Egypt now sort of pushing back against the crusaders

the Europeans the sort of French the Germans the whoever's in the area yeah they have been a real menace they've been an absolute nightmare for him and he's now going, come on, let's sort this. Let's get rid of these interlopers. But one of the ways he's paying for that is he inherits a massive library of a million books, and he sells a lot of them. So he's sort of selling off his assets to pay for war. That's exactly how I make money. It's like selling my books on eBay.

And are you funding a war, Maria? Is that your... Kind of. I mean, like my war with my comedy career, maybe? I don't know. He's got these resources and these books in Cairo. Yeah, I mean, it is a sort of act of cultural vandalism, if you want to put it like that.

Well, he's not burning them. He's selling them. So they're going to a good home. Often to friends as well. But he really is looking to fund his struggle against the Christians because he wants to get Jerusalem back for Islam. But he's also got to consolidate his position in Egypt as well. And so there's a lot of reasons why he needs money.

But because with the caliph dead, the treasury is at his disposal, you read about these mountains of jewels and enormous sapphires and silk factories. I mean, the wealth is just astonishing. And with this compulsion to reward people, he's just giving it away. I mean, his officials apparently, if there was money around, would hide it. Because if he knew it was there, he'd give it away.

Really? He's a competitive gift giver. That's how you get people to like you. Yeah, he sounds like a really kind grandad. But the trouble with doing that, you then get the sort of, like, where's my present, Grandma? You know, when you go and see Granny,

it's sort of like you expect a gift. So you do create an expectation. But in Saladin's case, he's quite clear, if I give you something, you are going to give me something back, which is your loyalty. There are several plots against him.

The first one is a fantastic one because the story is really interesting. So there is a spy slash assassin who's a eunuch who is trying to assassinate him. A eunuch is a guy who's had his testicles removed. And he is trying to sneak a message out, and he has hidden it in a place that you wouldn't necessarily expect. And a guard spots it. Maria, can you guess where he has hidden his secret message? Obviously.

If you have the space. In his testicles, you know. Just his testicles. Yeah, where that goes. That's an amazing place to hide a secret message. That is not what it is. And he got caught because somebody was like, your balls look a bit off. That is not what he did. And he got caught because somebody was like, your balls look a bit off.

Just slightly off. It wasn't in his balls. It was in his shoes. Jonathan, can you talk us through his footwear? Why was it... Why...

How had he... Sorry, I'm losing it. How had he smuggled this message out in his shoes? The shoes were too new. That was the problem. That's why they suss him.

He's trying to look sort of a dusty kind of anonymous servant and he just puts really smart shoes on. It's like he's got Air Jordans on. Like, wait a minute. So in a sense he stands out and says, hang on, this doesn't look right. Where do you get those shoes from?

Have you just stolen them or something like that, presumably. Oh, right. And then he gets caught. And this is just a sort of representation of some of the plots to get rid of Saladin, because clearly a lot of the people in Egypt, he's from an invading army, want to get rid of him. So there's a plot to get rid of him there. It's foiled. That's obviously not great, but he's still in power. Increasing his power in Cairo and he's

using his family as a kind of weapon which is great but does that now put him at odds with Nur ad-Din because suddenly he's a bit of a threat isn't he? He is he from being the the sort of Nur ad-Din was his patron he he really has got this power base in Egypt for his family and he's just set that up for sure. You know, and Nur ad-Din said, come on, we've got to now fight the crusaders. And Saladin, well, I'm not sure I want to do that. I might lose control of Egypt, which we wouldn't want. And he's really worried that Nur ad-Din will take power from him.

And now the student is challenging the master. He is. He is. It's Star Wars territory. This is exactly how I am when I'm watching like The Wire or something. Whoever I'm watching with, I'm like, wait, who's that again? What's going on? Okay, sorry. I'm caught up. Nur-Adeen sends a messenger to Saladin's court saying,

all right, you are absolutely going to toe the line now. Do what I want. And one of Saladin's cousins stands up and says, rubbish, we're going to fight Nur-Adeen. We're going to look after ourselves. And then Saladin's father steps forward and said, no, you're not. You'reodin, we're going to look after ourselves. And then Saladin's father steps forward and said, no you're not. You're going to do exactly what Nerodin tells you,

we're going to be obedient and loyal. And then everybody leaves the room. It's just Saladin and his dad. And of course, Saladin's father then says, that was a load of rubbish. We're really going to stitch him up down the line anyway. Okay, so Saladin's a bit sneaky. The dad is.

Well, the dad too. Yeah, but I mean, that's smart because everyone else will just like, they love to gossip, don't they? Like just chat and stuff

and that would have gotten back to Nur ad-Din. Exactly. But this is the family network sticking together. It's a very strong family. I'm impressed with this family. I mean, I guess

Nur ad-Din realises that, hang on a minute. So does that now mean Saladin is in the bad I mean is he now an enemy? Yeah there is a situation early in 1174 Nur ad-Din gets an army together and is going to invade Egypt so there is going to be a civil war it's one of those historical what ifs because Nur ad-Din gets sick and dies

just as he's about to invade Egypt and fight Saladin so yeah that story could have been very very different indeed Saladin. So, yeah, that story could have been very, very different indeed. Saladin is often very lucky. Successful leaders need to be lucky. And Nur ad-Din dropping dead at that moment. Because his uncle had dropped dead of eating too much shawarma. And then Nur ad-Din drops dead literally with an army behind him.

That's so funny. Like, they're about to duel. And then just as they're walking away, one just drops dead. And it's just like, oh, yeah. And and then everybody's like Saladin, Saladin he's just taking all the credit. Some people are Niruddin's family funnily enough aren't and Saladin then spends about the next 12 or 13 years trying to take over all their lands first of all Damascus then Aleppo, Mosul up in the north and so for a lot of the next 12, 13 years, Saladin is fighting Muslims.

And you've said he's lucky, but he's attacked twice more by assassins. Yeah. Both times, survives. They get incredibly close to him. One time they kind of nick his neck, I think. This is how you would write a Hollywood movie, and just the hero's being attacked by gunshots.

For some reason, the person attacking him cannot hit the guy. It's just he's being attacked by all these people, some reason, the person attacking him cannot hit the guy. It's just he's being attacked by all these people, but for whatever reason, they keep missing the mark. It just kind of nicks his neck, I think. So Saladin now marries. He marries a glamorous young woman called Ismat al-Sin Khatun, and she is...

Well, she's... I mean... She was the widow of Nur al-Din. Right. So what he's doing is by marrying... It is, Matt. Go, girl. That is sexy. Sorry, it is really very Love Island. It is very Love Island.

One guy gets booted out, just move on to the next guy. What Saladin is trying to do there is merge and assert his position within Damascus by marrying the widow of the previous ruler who happens to be the daughter of the previous ruler, who happens to be the daughter of the ruler that Nur ad-Din got rid of. Do you think that she gets insecure in the relationship? And she's like, do you like love me for me? Or is this a power play? He did love her. But when he is ill, he writes to her every day. But there's a really tragic

twist because she dies. She's in Damascus and she she dies and all the officials are like oh my god we can't tell him oh really that the woman he loves has actually died because he's so ill it might tip him over the edge so they kind of hide her death from him for a while until he's recovered a little bit but she's married her husband's enemy yeah something that's that's weird there was nothing particularly odd in that i think you would find other examples of that. It's because I think she's the daughter of the previous ruler of Damascus. And I think it's Saladin tying himself into the city. So he does love her.

He writes to her every day. Does he take other lovers as well? Yeah, he does. All right. And we think he had about 17 or 18 boys. Wow. So he's not quite sure how many kids he has is that it's very boris johnson right like it's just real just real big question mark there and are they all legitimate the kids there is a hierarchy there's a hierarchy okay um and it's not just the ones born of his wife who are going to be in the sort of succession

of the frame some of that boils down to a sort of succession of the frame some of that boils down to a sort of seniority and then some of it's down to sort of comp a judged competence as well okay because we haven't really talked about him as a general as a as a battlefield commander because he's really good at it isn't it i mean he i'm not sure he is oh is he not okay so history has told me that he i mean the pop culture history i mean is that Saladin is like this great sort of genius of the battlefield. I'm not very sure. Ah, OK, it's interesting. There's early on Battle of Montgisard, 1177,

where he's absolutely thrashed by the Crusaders. Oh, really? His great victory is 1187, the Battle of Patin, which is when he very, very cleverly gets a large coalition of the Muslim Neres together. He's got superior manpower. he pushes the crusaders into a situation where they really stupidly try and march about 20 miles across an almost waterless plateau right near the sea sea of Galilee to try and get to the sea of Galilee funnily enough it doesn't work but he has put so much pressure on them that they they make

this strategic error and then he's got all the horsemen, he's got enough water. He can pour water out in front of the crusaders in the boiling heat just to show that he's got it. So they're wearing chainmail armour, they're sweating in the heat, they've got no water. Wait, he did that? Yeah. And he's showing off the water, he's just dumping water on the ground.

And also at the same time there's drums, trumpets going. You know, we think of sort of bad music in modern warfare occasionally as a sort of intimidatory tactic. He's got that going. He sets fire to the dry grass there, obviously with the wind blowing in the correct direction, to choke the Franks. He breaks them.

And that is his big victory that then opens up Jerusalem to be recovered for Islam. So he takes Jerusalem at last. I mean, they lost it in 1099. And this is 1187. Yeah, he's done this great service to his faith. But he's been criticised on the way through, not least for usurping Nur al-Din's family possessions. And he, of course, his propagandists, his team say, well, we were the right people after all. God has blessed our enterprise. How else can you explain it? And there's not really an answer you can give to that.

So he is justified. Nobody else has managed this in 88 years, and now we have. Next question. And he captures the king of Jerusalem. Yep. How do you go about capturing a king? Do you dig a hole and hope that he sort of falls into it?

Do you just grab him in the sleep, or is it on the battlefield? This is at the end of the Battle of Hattin, and the Frankish army just surrenders. The foot soldiers just sit down. That's a sign we've had enough. It's gone. They are French. They're like, let's just get back to the wine and cheese.

What are we doing? Absolutely. I mean, if you're in the desert and there's a guy chucking water on the floor going, I don't even need this water, you must be like, oh, just, I'm done. Saladin has got this reputation for mercy, and it's when he then captures Jerusalem a couple of months later that that reputation is gained. Because 1099, the first crusaders get to Jerusalem as a bloodbath. 1187, there is some pressure on Saladin to right that, if you like,

to sort of make revenge for that of 1099. But he decides not to. He decides not to because it's not the sensible thing to do. The Christian defenders would kill all the Muslim prisoners they've got. They'd fight to the death. They'd destroy the Dome of the Rock, which Saladin's after. So he agrees to a ransom. And whatever the thought process is that led him to do that,

just the act of not slaughtering the Christians in 1187, I think is something that does so much for his reputation. I mean, mercy is power. Mercy is a form of power. I could kill you, but I won't. Yeah, it is. And also, I think, while in one way he's just sort of put a stake through the heart of Western Europe, taking Christendom's great city. The Pope's supposed to have died of a heart attack when he hears of it. Wow.

At the same time, by this act of sort of chivalry, he has done something that will... Western Europe can't quite get over that. That was remarkable. The Pope died of a heart attack? Yeah, when he heard that Saladin, the Muslims, had got Jerusalem back. That's amazing. That's another person that just dropped dead around him.

Yeah, yeah. What is going on? There's some more to come, don't worry. Okay. So that's where his reputation sort of made, because he, as you say, he ransoms the people of Jerusalem. It's another money-making scheme, isn't it, also, as well? It is.

More rewards, more generosity. Yeah, exactly. He gets to give his cash out again. Can we sort of say that there's a confusion in Europe because they're like, hang on, he's meant to be the bad guy, but he's sort of behaving like a good Christian. First of all, he is the son of Satan, as they describe him. There's a wonderful picture of the seven-headed beast of the apocalypse.

That's a better title than Vizier, son of Satan. Well, that is how they describe him and they draw this seven-headed beast of the apocalypse and head number six is saladin who would be in your top seven heads of satan yeah satan heads i get well trump obviously trump this is my mount rushmore of satan heads some ex-boyfriends this is actually i don't have seven isn't enough but then the course of the third crusade western Western Europeans are out there for two or three years and they engage with Saladin and particularly his brother, who's a man called Safferdin. And they realise that these men have got a lot more in common with them than they thought. So you've mentioned the Third Crusade there. So this is 1189. Have you ever heard of Richard Lionheart? He's a big deal here in Britain.

No, no. He's in the Disney movie as a lion cartoon. The Robin Hood film where Robin is a fox. Did they cast him based on his last name? Pretty much. Or his title, I guess. And he's called Richard the Lionheart because apparently he has the heart of a lion. Literally the heart of a lion, like apparently.

Like a heart transplant. He rips out the heart of a lion. And Richard is the king a heart transplant. Yeah, he rips out the heart of a lion. And Richard is the king of England, and he's a big deal here in Britain, particularly for the English. And he, I mean, Saladin is a big deal also because he has something called the Saladin Tithe. It's a sort of tax that the English king raises in order to go and fight him.

Having a tax named after you is never good. That's a big, I mean, that's a thing, isn't it? It's like having a crowd funder against your enemy. We're raising money to fight this guy. But they're so appalled at the loss of Jerusalem to the Muslims that they've got to do something and you're all going to have to cough up, folks.

So they do try and raise huge amounts of money from everybody. Everybody has got to contribute to this. And Richard goes out there, arrives, it goes quite well for a bit. Yeah, Richard defeats Saladin. There's been a huge siege at a place called Acre for almost two years. Richard turns up. That ends successfully for the Crusaders. Richard defeats Saladin in a couple of battles. So again, one's clearly a better general than the other okay he's got the crusaders coming over in wave after wave and so it's it's an incredibly stressful difficult situation because he's not winning anymore he's not got the money to give out but in the end he knows richard will

have to go home helped by the fact that horrible prince john is is kicking off in the background and really creating trouble there so if he can just hang on in the end, Richard will go away. Why did Richard have to go home? Because his younger brother, John, is an absolute dick and basically steals the throne. If you watch the Disney movie, it's very accurate. Is there actually a Disney movie? Yeah, it's an animation from the 60s, I think,

and Robin Hood is a fox and John is is a sort of cowardly lion isn't he and then uh and then there's like a snake i mean it's great but there is this sort of interesting story and i want to ask if it's true because the stories are that richard gets really ill he's got something called arnaldia which is a weird medieval disease we don't know what it is we think it's scurvy yeah i sort of skin goes all flaky his fingernails fall out and his hair falls out and his skin goes all rubbery and weird and he goes kind of gray colored and saladin instead of going brilliant another guy dropping dead which is usually how it works sends him a doctor sends him a doctor and sends him uh richard wants plums and pears and so he it's all part of diplomacy because Richard isn't going to be defeated at this time.

So it's all part of, well, when you take those gifts over, you can actually see what's happening in the army camp and you can talk to factions and sort of split them up a bit. But it's also part of courtesy, respect for other men of your kind of level. Well, nobody wants to defeat a person whose skin is falling off. It's just like, get yourself together and when you feel better let's fight again this is i have to say saladin's health is not good at all he spends the last six or seven years of his life he is ill year after year after year excruciating pain

jaundice uh one year he has boils uh from his waist down all over his legs his immune system is basically shot to pieces because of the stresses and strains of what he's doing. So the two of them are kind of like, by the end of the Third Crusade, they're both very ill, very tired, very broke. And they kind of just about come to a standstill. So this sort of heroic image of these two great warriors, actually, they're just knackered old men just going,

oh, my God, make it end. They are pretty well. And Saladin sort of said, well, you know, actually, you're much younger than me. image of these two great warriors yeah actually they're just knackered old men just go oh my god they are pretty well and son of instead of saying well you know actually you're much younger than me you're not doing so well are you yeah so they do fight and it just falls off his arm falls off just what is happening to you too but because you started with that idea of the sort of son of satan and yet after two three years of closer contact, while they are still fighting from time to time, clearly, and they've got ultimate goals in mind, there is this sort of curious kind of relationship emerges. Sort of a grudging respect. Yeah. Is that like that in the comedy scene in LA? Is there a sort of respect to your enemy?

Oh, no, not at all. No, nobody respects anybody. Absolutely not. Every man for themselves. So you wouldn't send a basket of plums to your enemy? Oh no, no. God, I wouldn't. I can't afford that. Are you serious? I mean, there are lots of sort of stories told about him and we're hearing that some of them are positive and surprising, but there are still people who are trying to demonize him or not necessarily demonise him, but humiliate him. There's a story told that his first job was as a sort of licensing prostitute. That's a Western writer trying to demonise the man who's captured Jerusalem. So that comes out in that kind of period, if you like,

before Saladin is turned into this much more positive figure. Before he gets the makeover, people are saying that he hangs around with sex workers and a sinning man rather than a religious... Yeah, that's just a pretty standard stereotype. The son of Satan propaganda has come out here. Maria, can you guess how much money is left in the treasury when he dies? Because it is extraordinary how little it is. Is it just, like like one solo coin?

It's not far off. It's basically that. But I think while he's got all this money that he hands out, what he doesn't go for, he goes for sort of personal austerity. And I think that is his faith. But he's also, I think, not blind to the fact that it looks good, if you see what I mean. It's appropriate for his image as the holy warrior.

But he does not want to be seen to be covered in jewels and fine robes and things like that. He's just a giver. Yeah, he is. It's very Arab, by the way. It's a very Arab thing to take, here, take, have, have, have, give, give, give. Oh, you like my shirt? You can have it. Richard gives him a gift, apparently,

in the course of the Third Crusade. We don't know what it is. And Saladin, I've got to give him something better. It's a competitive gift giving. It's a one-up machine. Yeah, yeah. According to the story, there were 37 coins in the treasury,

which is not good. I mean, this is a guy who rules an empire. I mean, how big is the empire? Egypt, Yemen, Syria, Iraq, the Holy Land. It's vast. So he's broker, then he gives off. Like, people think that he has more money than he actually does. He's got a lot of lands under his belt.

But when he dies, I mean, everything just sort of collapsed because he's been holding it together, the money's gone, all the old sort of fights kick off again it's it's strange it really does show how much his family sort of bought into supporting him and uh what a clearly influential cohesive figure he is how good he is with his family because within months of his death i mean he's got all those sons they start fighting amongst one another. And so it's amazing how quickly that unity that he had just about managed to preserve, I mean, he is kind of hanging on by the last year or so of his life.

So the remarkable thing about Saladin really is that it's his sort of singular personality and abilities that have forged an empire that really shouldn't have been forged. I mean, it hangs together because of him. Very, very challenging. Yeah. And as soon as he's gone, all the wheels fall off. Yeah. What's his reputation like after he dies? I mean, in the Near East, his reputation survives down the centuries.

There's a case in sort of 16th century Istanbul where the Ottoman Empire and one of the chief officials writes, well, Saladin, as all the histories write, was a great ruler to be emulated. So I'm not saying he's like the dominant figure that everybody's looking to, but there is a clear memory of him and the Crusades down the centuries, and that's sometimes a little bit separate. But the Muslim Near East, the idea, the memory and legacy of the Crusades is there, and it's a toxic legacy that goes down the centuries.

When you get to the 19th century and Europeans start going back into the Near East, British ruling, you know, taking control of Egypt in the 1880s, things like that, the French there, then, of course, Saladin's legacy and memory is revived very strongly

from this existing base. And he's there as the man who resisted Westerners, defeated them and largely threw them out. So that's something that a lot of people want to emulate and tie into. Do you know who that's not like? Donald Trump. None of those qualities. We got there in the end. Thank you. I think what's interesting then is that in some regards Saladin becomes

a sort of an icon, which means he becomes slightly dehumanised. He becomes a sort of figurehead. He becomes a myth almost, in the West and in the Islamic world. The nuance window! We've reached a point in the podcast, which I love, it's my favourite bit, it's called the nuance window,

where we allow our expert to go to town and geek out for two minutes without interruption on anything they want to talk about. And Jonathan, you're going to talk about the real man and you're going to talk about his mental health and the stresses of being ruler. So I've got two minutes on the clock. Three, two, one, off we go. The nuance window.

Thank you. I suppose when we... Mental health is something that feels modern, doesn't it? You talk about student mental health and things like that. And it's not very often we can understand what's going on to the 800 years ago. And I guess if you think of the sort of the scale of the challenge that Saladin faced, waves of crusaders coming over trying to hold his family together, Nur al-Din's family disliking him, the assassins trying to kill him, running all these things. You actually got to sort of step back and go, hang on, think of the strain that that man was under. And there are moments when some of the chroniclers talk about this, once you sort of

start tuning into it. And there's a couple of occasions where, as well as the sort of start tuning into it and there's a couple of occasions where as well as the sort of physical stresses and strains that he's under you know his immune system is pretty well done you know I think basically every autumn it kind of goes down seemingly there's a few occasions where they talk about they stop fighting because of the the tension the pressure he was under it's as if they just go you know he can he can't do this anymore. And I find that fascinating. We know we talk about the battles and we talk about motives and all the achievements and the victories and the defeats, just to sort of almost like you say, humanise him with the pressure of, do you realise the strain I am under trying to achieve this? And at the end of it,

the Third Crusade is Western Europe's greatest warriors, king's rulers. They've thrown themselves at him and he's preserved Jerusalem in the hands of Muslims. And that, I think, he dies a few months after that. I would think he would say, that was my aim. That's what I said I was going to do. And that's what I've achieved. So what do you know now? It's time now, really, to see what maria has learned oh it's the time that we call the so what do you know now it is the quiz let's see what is stuck and let's see what you've

forgotten um these are tricky questions because we're talking about a guy who is not familiar to us particularly so you know i'd be interested to see how well you do. But no pressure, but some pressure. OK. Because it's a quiz. So 60 seconds. Ooh. Here we go. Question one. In which modern country was Saladin born?

Iraq. Iraq is correct. Which English king did Saladin fight in the Third Crusade? The lion one. Yes, Richard the Lionheart. According to some bitter Western commenters, what was Saladin's first job? A trash collector. He was licensing prostitutes.

Oh. Saladin recovered which holy city in 1187? Jerusalem? Jerusalem's correct. After his victory at Jerusalem, what did Saladin do with the defeated Christian defenders? After his victory, what did he do with the defeated? He hung their heads up in the town square. No, he let them go. He ransomed them off. He's a good guy. Nur ad-Din was the ruler of

Damascus. And what did he do just before he died against Saladin? He said, don't take my wife. No, he launched an army. He was going to go to war. Although he probably did say that too. No, he launched an army. He was going to go to war. Although he probably did say that too. How did Henry II and King Richard the Lionheart raise money for the Third Crusade? Kickstarter. Yes, the Saladin Tithe.

A eunuch working to assassinate Saladin was caught out when he was wearing the wrong pair of what? Sandals. Yes. What was Saladin's favourite sport? Polo. Yeah, pol not... Yeah. Yeah, polo's right. And when he died in 1193, how much money was in the treasury? How many coins?

37 coins. 37 coins. 8 out of 10. That's how much money I have. 8 out of 10 is a very strong score. You did very well. So we've learned some stuff about him. He's a really fascinating guy. He was deeply religious. He was deeply committed to his goals. He was flawed. He killed people sometimes when he didn't have to,

and he spared people sometimes when he didn't have to. And he's gone down in history as a sort of bit of a hero. Absolutely. But slightly mythologised. So, interesting guy. Absolutely. Absolutely. Maria, what do you think about him?

Have you been one around? Are you a super fan? Yeah, of course. He's a good guy. I don't, what do you think about him? Have you been one around? Are you a super fan? Yeah, of course. He's a good guy. I don't know why I had to... I was convinced... You hear somebody goes to war and you're like, oh, what a dick. But he seemed fair and just.

I'm so sorry. Trump could take some lessons from how he acted. Diplomacy. All right. Well, we've more or less reached the end of the podcast. In fact, we have reached the end of the podcast. So that is it for today. I hope you've had some fun today. Thank you so much to my guests, Professor Jonathan Phillips from Royal Holloway and Maria Shahata. And to our lovely listeners at home, please join me next time when we'll have another lovely chat about something else to do with history.

But I'm now off to go and get tickets for the Saladin Ballet, which is a thing. So, who knew? Anyway, enjoy, take care, bye! You're Dead to Me was a Muddy Knees media production for BBC Radio 4. The researchers were Emily Greenwell and Emma Neguse, the script was by Emma Neguse, and the producer was Dan Morrell. Hello, it's Sophie Duker. Heidi Regan.

Ned Sedgwick here. We've been given 30 seconds to tell you why Grown-Up Land is the podcast that will change your life for the better. Why you'll be healthier, happier, more culturally enriched and totally confident about everything in every way. But there is a small snag, as none of that is true at all. What you will become is confident that everyone else is just as confused, frustrated and anxious as you are. Every week we're joined by a brilliant guest to talk about things like sex, fear, rejection, jealousy, sex. And we often end up sharing way too much about our personal lives. Yeah, I should really rein that in. That's Growing Up Land, the podcast about the exhausting pursuit of adulthood.

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