You're Dead to Me - The Ancient Olympics

Episode Date: March 6, 2020

Greg Jenner and his guests Professor Michael Scott and comedian Shaparak Khorsandi limber up for a trip to the ancient Olympics. Discover the drastic measures taken to prevent women watching the action. Hear how the gruelling challenges brought a whole new meaning to the term "leaving it all on the field" and how even death couldn’t stop you winning.A Muddy Knees Media production for BBC Radio 4

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, a history podcast for people who just don't like history. Or at least people who forgot to learn any at school. My name's Greg Jenner, I'm a public historian, author and I'm the chief nerd on the BBC comedy show Horrible Histories. If you haven't listened before, this podcast is all about mashing together first-class history and comedy gold for a winning combination of learning and lols. Now, it's 2020, and it's an Olympic year, so today we are donning our lycra,

wrapping ourselves in the flag, and lighting our fancy torches as we get to grips with the history of the Olympics. But none of your Johnny-come-lately modern stuff. No, no, no, no. We are journeying back, all the way back, to ancient Greece to cheer on our favourite local legends at the original Olympic Games. That's right, we're chatting the OG OGs. And to help me

do that, I'm joined by two returning champions. Previous guests on You're Dead to Me. In History Corner, he is a classicist from the University of Warwick, an author, a BBC broadcaster. You may know him from his amazing documentary series Invisible Cities, or hopefully from his smashing appearance on the Spartans episode of You're Dead to Me, available on BBC Sounds. It is the wonderful Professor Michael Scott. Hi, Michael. How are you? I'm well, thanks. It's great to be back talking about naked ancient Greeks again.

Have you been limbering up? Have you been feeling sporty? Absolutely. I was last seen running naked down the mall earlier this morning in preparation. That's very on brand for you, Infernus. Thank you. It was a suggestion back in 2012 when London hosted the Olympics. If you can imagine it, Boris Johnson did actually suggest a naked run down the mall as a part of the celebration of the links between the ancient and modern Olympics. Funnily enough, no one really seemed that keen. Yeah, kind of glad that didn't happen.

Particularly given the ancient Greeks weren't just naked, right? They tied up their penises with strings. Wow, hang on a minute. I mean, this is what you also had to do in the running races. You sort of tied up your penis with strings, sort of keep it out of the way, in a technique that was called kynodesma in ancient Greek which literally translates

as dog tying. Oh, wow. And in Comedy Corner she's a stand-up, a novelist, a cultural icon. You'll have seen her on Live at the Apollo,

8 out of 10 cats having a news for you and of course I'm a celebrity, get me out of here but most important of all on the Justinian and Theodora episode with Peter Frankopan

it's the wonderful Shappi Korsandi. Hi Shappi. Hello, how are you? I'm alright. Are you feeling sporty? Well, I've started to run with my dog and that's embarrassing because I run like full pelt and the dog just trots next to me. So my self-esteem is low, but my thighs are toned. I think that's the best answer.

It's so not. Suddenly very hot in here when i said thighs i meant calves which aren't nearly um as sexy as thighs all right well we're already off to a quite a weird start let's crack on with the first segment of the pod so what do you know so let's begin with this So What Do You Know? where I try and summarise what I think you at home might know about today's subject. Well, the Olympics are, of course, famous.

We all love the Olympics and chances are you've run for a bus while humming the theme tune to Chariots of Fire. I certainly do. You're probably thinking Olympics, huge stadiums, medal ceremonies, amazing opening ceremonies, iconic victories for Mo Farah, Usain Bolt, Jess Ennis. You're thinking maybe the five interlocked rings, a torch parade, wall-to-wall coverage on the telly and Emily Sandé banging out a tune. But you're probably not thinking ancient Greeks. You're probably not thinking ancient Greeks with tied up penises.

So let's get started with this sort of ancient. I really have opened Pandora's box. I think we should start with the basics, really. get started with this sort of ancient... I really have opened Pandora's box now. You really have. I think we should start with the basics, really. Michael, can we talk about the Olympic rings very, very quickly? Are they ancient Greek? No.

Right. The torch parade? No. Fine. All right. Invented by Hitler for the 1936 Berlin Olympics, the torch relay. And the rings were around from the beginning of the 20th century, but that's all part of the modern Olympics, as indeed is the marathon race. Named after a Greek battle.

Named after a Greek battle, but was never part of the ancient Olympics. What do we know then about the very origins of the Olympics? I mean, can you tell us where is Olympia? So Olympia is a place that you can visit today. And it's in the Peloponnese, which is the lower part of Greece. Olympia is kind of very much landlocked. It's big open flat land, two big rivers kind of coincide, the Alpheus and the Chaldeas and that's where the Olympic Games were held. Supposedly the first Olympics was in 776 BC and that's a famous date because actually for a long long time scholars thought that history began

when the Olympics began and everything that happened before 776 was not history it was called pre-history whatever that is but then after the Olympics began you could have history wow so they were literally making history they were literally making history although how this date of 776 came about no one in 776 put a little time capsule in the ground and went, it's 776, people. Several centuries later, a bunch of people went, you know what, it'd be really good to know how long we've been doing this. And they tried counting backwards and working out and producing lists going back. So there were all these different ancient historians who were all sitting there coming up with different start dates for the Olympics.

And going, well, I think it was X or Y. But 776 is the date that kind of generally is agreed on. OK. If you can have any kind of agreement about some of them. A bit like my street. We've been having street parties for the last few years. And my neighbour and I the other day went, oh, you know, we've got an organised street party.

And I said, oh, this will be the fourth year. And she said, oh, no, I think it'll be the fifth year. And none of us can be sure. So we've had to do a WhatsApp group to Sophie at number 56 because she knows, because she organises the tug-of-war and she's done that from the beginning. So she's going to have a look to see which one of us is right. You have your own Olympics. You've got a tug-of-war.

I've got my own history going on. It's lovely. And what else is there in Olympia? Well, there was one of the seven ones of the world. Shappi, do you want to guess what it was? One of the seven... Oh gosh, now let me go through my mind and remember my Asterix books. The Asterix and the Olympic Games. Oh, is it the javelin?

That's a... No, is it a mountain? Is it to do with a mountain? It's not a mountain. It's a giant gold and ivory statue of Tom Daley. Sorry, Zeus. I get him confused. It's the abs. Zeus. 30 metres high, massive, whack-and-great statue. There is a really famous hill, though, because Shafi was actually right. There is a famous hill. There is the hill

of Kronos. The hill of Kronos. That was the one. One of the Titans? Yeah, and it sits... The good thing about it is it's still there today, and it sits right behind where they do the modern ceremony every time there's an Olympics when they now light the Olympic torch, which we know wasn't part of the ancient Olympics.

But anyway, they light it at Olympia using parabolic mirrors, so it's a flame created from the gods. There's also an origin story. Have you ever heard of Oedemaeus and Pelops, Chappie? Oedemaeus and Pelops? Yeah. Unless they live down my street, no.

That's a very middle-class name, isn't it? There is a couple at the bottom that no one really talks to. It might be them. Okay, I don't think it's them. Michael? So you have Oinomars, who was a king. He got told a prophecy that he was going to be killed by his son-in-law.

So obviously he had a daughter. He wasn't very keen for that daughter to marry anyone because he might get killed as a result. So he came up with a brilliant ruse. Any possible suitor for his daughter, he challenged them to a chariot race. If they won, he could marry the daughter. If they lost, the dad killed them, basically. High stakes.

And he had the best and fastest chariot around, so he thought he was kind of quids in. Pellops turns up with a cunning plan in which he bribes the chariot driver of Oynermiles to replace the axle pins of this chap's chariot with wax. At the same time, Pelops goes to his former lover, the god Poseidon, as you do, to get a really fast pair of horses,

so he's got an equally good chariot. The chariot race starts, the axles spin round, the wax warms up, chariot wheels come off, Oinomaus, the dad, falls to his death, gets trampled under the horses, Pelops walks off with the girl, but what did he promise the chariot driver? First night with the bride. Whoa.

Went back on that, chucked the guy off a cliff instead. As the guy fell off a cliff to his death, he turned and cursed Pelops and all his descendants forever for his actions. As a result of all that, they set up the Olympic Games in honour of Pelops. Hang on, when did that bit come in? That's a real tacked on, and then I guess some Olympics? It's utterly bonkers. So the Olympic Games are supposed to be either funeral games in honour of the death of Pelops, or perhaps celebration games in honour of his victory.

But he had a little enclosure in the Sanctuary at Olympia dedicated just to him. So at the heart of the Olympics is a story of a guy who cheats his way to victory and commits a few murders. So, I mean, are the Olympic Games a religious festival? Are they a political thing? Is it just sort of, you know, a nice thing to do in the summer holidays? What's the purpose of them? I mean, the other massive difference in the Olympics today is that they were in a religious

event. They take place in a religious sanctuary sacred to Zeus, king of the gods, and also with a bit of Pelops worship going on. In fact, there were 70 different religious altars across the sanctuary and games places at Olympia. And even worse than that, the Olympics took place over five days in antiquity. Pretty much the first two and a half days were entirely religious sacrifices, religious prayers, processions, all of that jazz in honour of the gods.

So nothing that took place at Olympia was not completely part of a religious process. So there was a sort of opening ceremony, but it was a religious one. Absolutely. And it took two days. It took two days. And it culminated in the sacrifice of 100 oxen to Zeus.

So Coldplay couldn't follow that, could they? Shappi, the Olympic Games isn't technically speaking the straight translation. It's Olympia koi agnos, was the Greek. Do you want to guess what agnos might mean in Greek? Games? No. No, agnos, the Olympic competition. Nearly.

Tournament. It's sort of agonies, isn't it? Agonies. It's really intense struggles. So they expected death at these events. I mean, it's full on. It's the agon, yeah. It's the contest. It's, yeah. It's the contest.

It's the competition. It's the struggle. It's the thing that makes life worthwhile for your ancient Greeks. I don't know why I've gone into countryside, sort of Dorset Cornwall-esque, but, you know, kind of there we go. The ultimate physical challenge. Yeah. So if we had the Olympic agonies now, I mean, what events would we have?

I mean, shin kicking. But they do those um my mate went on a hen night hen day they said it was like gonna be an obstacle course but she didn't express how intense it was gonna be like it was a proper scale this wall way through this mud and half the women came in high heels which is another reason i don't go to hen nights i would love to watch that though i'd like like to watch that. That would be amazing. And one girl apparently started crying in the middle going, I didn't sign up for this. Which would have made it even more

entertaining. I mean, one of the things that the Olympics kind of would have solved that problem because it didn't allow any women to compete. I want to ask you every four years we have the Olympics, has it always been like that or was it an annual event before? No, it was every four years. Always every four years. Although why four years? Why four years we have the Olympics. Has it always been like that or was it an annual event before? No, it was every four years.

Always every four years. Although why four years? Why four years? Why? That is something that is lost in the mists of time. No one's sure. That's how long it took for their penises to recover. It's a bit like why the hell they were tying up their penises. It's one of those unanswerable questions.

It was happening as part of a bigger set of cycles of games. So the Olympic Games we've all heard of, they're the most famous, but they weren't the only athletic games going on in ancient Greece. So you had games at Delphi, you had games at another sanctuary called Ismia, another sanctuary called Nemea. So you've got four major sanctuaries that are all offering games of the sort of Premier League quality. Oh, OK. And then there's lots of places offering games underneath that,

the sort of, you, the sort of first division level. But those four are all in different years. So every four years and it's five days long. And Olympia would have been completely deserted outside of those five days. I mean, no one lived there. There was a

small family of oracular priests who kind of hung around. And once a month, a group of people turned up from a nearby city, nearby, like 40 kilometres away, to do a quick turn around all the altars with a quick sacrifice on all the altars. Bar that, it was deserted. Which is what happened in Brazil

with the World Cup stadiums in Greece. You build these massive billion-dollar things and then they just sort of get covered in cobwebs. Do you want to guess what the first ever event was, Shab? Because to begin with, there was only one event at the Olympics. I reckon it must have been running. It was running. It was 200 metres and it was called a stadion,

which is where we get the word stadium from. Stadium, there we go. So 200 metres, naked. No strings attached. No strings very much attached. And that's the first event. And then they start to sort of phase in other events. Yeah yeah and it builds up to a kind of full round of events some of them we recognize today right so there's lots of different lengths of running races up to

about four and a half k something like that but then they had a really weird running race that was called the hoplite drumway race yeah where they run dressed as a hoplite so dressed in full armour of a soldier which I mean kind of makes sense because every citizen in the ancient Greek world was also a soldier there wasn't any

kind of professional army every citizen when they needed to put on the gear and went off to war so being ready to fight was sort of a natural and normal part

of what you were supposed to be able to do so to have a competition to run around in all of that stuff I guess kind of makes sense. So they're wearing the shin pad, the greaves, which is the sort of the metal shin pads.

They're wearing a helmet and they're carrying the shield, the hoplod. Then you had some wrestling, good old wrestling. Pankration. Ah, now the pan, ah, the pankration. So it translates, it's just pan all kratos power, the all power event. It's the ultimate fighting. Ultimate, so it's WWF, like kind of,

in which there were only two rules. You couldn't bite anyone. Okay. And you weren't supposed to gorge their eyes out. Well, that's a silly rule. Bar that. Straight for the eyes,

Shafiq or Sandy. I'm not fighting her in the main room at any time soon. Like, I mean. I know. You've never seen a woman with shorter nails.

And then things like discus throwing that we'd recognise. Sure. I was always a discus thrower at school. Yes, the kids that were chubby were always the discus. And the kids who were tall, like my best friend, were the high jumpers. And I remember my best friend ran up and she went under the high jump

and my discus just always fell to my ankle. So whenever I hear discus i just i'm transported back to 1984 and turns out i was really good at running i came first in running i'm a very good sprinter i'd like that to be made public thank you first prize first prize in the stadium thank you very much greg what would be your kind of preferred event well i was a sprinter you're a sprinter i've got very bad knees but i'm quite quick so hurdles and sprinting was my thing but uh discus would be just i mean it would probably just fall behind me i think the one You were a sprinter. I've got very bad knees, but I'm quite quick. So hurdles and sprinting was my thing. But discus would be just, I mean, it would probably just fall behind me.

I think the one that we'd find the most difficulty looking at today, though, is that they had the long jump. I did that too and I enjoyed that. But the long jump, the way they did it in ancient Greece was you had these sort of weights that you held in each hand that you sort of threw forward to help you go forward. that you sort of threw forward to help you go forward. And you did it as three standing jumps, each accompanied to the music of the flute. Oh, come on, we should bring that back. So you had to sort of have the elegance of a dancer, the strength of an athlete.

And the willingness of a belly flopper. Exactly. More flute music in Olympic. I mean, that's what I want. Well, quite, quite. I mean, brilliant to see, you know, Greg Rutherford doing a triple jump while someone's just sort of playing a bit of 4A in the corner. But if you were a lazy bugger,

the event you went for was the chariot race. OK. Because you were said to be the competitor because you owned the horses. This is the only way a woman could win an event, isn't it? So the chariot driver, the guy who's actually driving the chariot around the course and won the race, no recognition

whatsoever. Don't even know their name. Who cares? It's about the person who owned the horses. So you sit back sort of with a large glass of ouzo or something in your hand and watch your horses win. So is it Kinista, who was the queen? Kyniska, yeah. Kyniska.

Who was the queen who won the Olympic Games. The first and only woman to win an Olympic event perhaps. Yeah, she sort of snuck in. She was the sister of the king of Sparta. That was only because she owned the horses. Yeah, and it wasn't really allowed even then. She wasn't supposed to be doing it. But basically it was the way she and the king of Sparta

could put two fingers up to the rest of the Greek world at the time and go, look you Greek men who think you're all so hard winning all these Olympic events. My sis can win an Olympic event. It ain't that big a deal. There's a statue with an inscription saying, Sparta's kings were fathers and brothers of mine, but since with my chariot and storming horses, I, Kyniska, have won the prize and proudly proclaim that of all Grecian women, I first wore the crown. It's quite a good inscription. It's like Wylian Storms, isn't it?

Oh, yes, it's a grime feud. It's a grime feud of the olden days. The whole sanctuary was littered with these statues and inscriptions from victors of different races and different eras, and they were all doing Yarshuk's boo, I'm better than you, to everyone else around them. So it was a continual kind of monument wars going on. There was nothing subtle about the ancient Olympics.

No, so was this made popular when people didn't have a war to fight? Because it's all very raw, and I don't know what we did before. That's a really good question, because there is the sort of Olympic truce, isn't there? Yeah did before. That's a really good question because there is the sort of Olympic truce, isn't there? Yeah, again it's a bit of a... Is it a myth? Yeah, it's kind of a myth. So, what happened about a good year before the Olympic Games happened

they would send out ambassadors on these pre-prescribed routes around the entire Mediterranean world to go, the Olympic Games are happening! And then there was supposedly a truce of free passage. So it wasn't that no one went to war with one another. It was that if you were travelling to Olympia for the Olympic Games, people were supposed to let you get there without sort of killing you on the spot because you happened to come from a neighbouring town

they didn't like. There was a truce, but it wasn't the kind of truce that we make it out to be today, that everyone kind of stops warring with one another and just loves and hugs one another and goes to the olympic games so the olympics were for men yeah women aren't allowed to enter were they allowed to be spectators no so who are the spectators are just other men it's just other men just men fighting men in front of men men men men men men so so married women were definitely not allowed but on occasion unmarried women to young women were allowed. You also, the other thing which is really different from today, is you had to be Greek.

This was not an event in which lots of different nations came together. This was Greeks coming together to be Greek. And you had to prove that you were Greek enough to compete in the Olympic Games. And even some really famous people that we obviously consider Greeks, like Philip of Macedon, the father of Alexander the Great, had quite a lot of trouble proving that he was Greek enough. Make some dolmas now.

So the way to do it in those days was you could do it via your cooking or you could check out my heritage, check out my ancestry. And they claim an ancestry back to some really famous Greek hero. So Hercules, Heracles was a great one. So Philip kind of rocked up and went, look, I can prove I'm descended from Hercules. How did he do that then? One of those online DNA tests.

Kind of sent it off in the post, waited a couple of days, like came back for it. I prefer the cooking idea. I think there should be a sort of a bake-off element to it. Yeah. Isn't it funny, though, the fact that women weren't allowed to even watch? Throughout history, anything that's entered,

women were always sort of not allowed to watch anything that's enjoyable. If you went to the theatre as a woman, you got a reputation. And what is it about not wanting women to be entertained? It doesn't make sense. What is their problem? What was the problem with women being there?

And when did they start letting women watch men have their faces caved in? Well, women weren't not allowed to compete in games. Women had their own separate set of games, kind of called the Haraia. They also took place at Olympia at a slightly different time so it wasn't that they weren't allowed to do it it's that the idea was they had to be kept separate. I'm so glad that doesn't happen in the world anymore

I mean, I know how much you fancy seeing some naked men with their penises tied up with strings running down a kind of I'd watch, I mean, you know just for a bit. Why are you waiting for pointless to start? Well, exactly. You just, you know, watch a little bit.

Daytime television, like, kind of, you know, it really has slacked in recent years, hasn't it? So, but there is this, I mean, it's a long-standing idea, as you point out, from all aspects of ancient society, that there is an important amount of separation and it all goes back to that kind of nasty way in which ancient societies very often patriarchally controlled women and kept them in very, very, very confined boxes.

Was it to do with the nudity? Was the nakedness part of the problem? Or was it to do with the fact that women were too pure or not pure enough? Yeah, I mean, you see, it's a mixture of those things, I think. But you see in every aspect of Greek society, kind of whether women were allowed, even just kind of down to the marketplace, let alone to kind of go travel to Olympia and spend five days in a big dusty kind of field

watching men run around naked. Shappi, what do you think the winner would get in an Olympic event or in the Haraia? Oh, it must be gold of some sort and metal of some sort. I think something shiny. A live chicken? That's not gold. I like the live chicken. I think think something shiny. A live chicken. That's not gold.

I like the live chicken. I think everyone should be given the live chicken. We'll put it to the Olympic Committee, see what they think. It'd be a lot cheaper than medals they give out. It would. And you know what? I think there's something adorable about a gold winner standing on those little three steps, each with a bit of livestock.

It's nice. A little chicken would be lovely, wouldn't it? And then release it into the wild because we're all vegans now. It'd be delicious. Delightful. what did they actually win it wasn't anything made of gold or silver it was a crown

made of olive wreath and the different games those four big premier league games all gave crowns made of different kinds of plants

so you weren't winning gold or silver what you were winning was immortal glory kleos kleos there we go for having won at the Olympics and there was no second or third prize I think that's the gold or silver. What you were winning was immortal glory. Klaos. Klaos, there we go. Like, kind of,

for having won at the Olympics. And there was no second or third prize. I mean, that's the other really important thing. It was winner takes all. Winner or loser. Winner or loser. And the stakes were high, right?

So, I mean, the description of what losers were treated like when they went back home. There's a great phrase by an ancient writer called Pindar

who talks about the fact that even their mothers wouldn't look at them and you're like ouch so going back to the idea of it being an agon of a contest

of a struggle it was winner is everything do you know what I used to live on this estate and on my estate was a rowing champion and my son was only about three at the time

so we went to this person's house on our estate because he was very nice and he let the kids on the estate come to look at his medal. And I took my boy and I said, look, we're meeting a real Olympic champion. And he got his medal and he opened it and my boy went, oh, only bronze. I was not welcome at that house anymore. I actually moved from the area

it was the most mortifying moment It would have been a lot simpler if there were only gold medals given out Exactly But this was the Bronze Age so surely all bronze medals were gold medals and vice versa Last time you were in with us Michael we talked about the Spartans and the sort of hardcore warriors

slightly mythologised but they were famed as fighters, you know, physical training all the time. So does that mean that they were always cleaning up at the Olympics? You know, they'd turn up and beat the crap out of everyone else? So it's really interesting because Sparta, the town of Sparta, is not that far away from Olympia, right? It's also in the Peloponnese. So you'd think it's not only are they supposed to be

like the greatest warriors of antiquity, it's also in their backyard, pretty much. So you'd think this would be an easy cleanup. You're absolutely right. But, no, the records of all those winners dating back to 776 BC, which, of course, absolutely historically accurate in every possible way, show that, no, the Spartans were not the winners. In fact, quite early on in the early decades of the games,

lots of winners came from southern Italy and Sicily, the kind of colonies from southern Italy and Sicily and different places. So those were counted as Greeks? Absolutely. So any of the Greek colonies spread out around the Mediterranean. Anyone who could prove they were Greek in one form or another through their baking or their ancestry. I made some tarma salata.

Check it out. And they were often the winners. Sparta has a kind of uneasy relationship with Olympia because it was supposed to be this kind of international sanctuary but it was actually sort of run and controlled by a nearby city called Elis. And Elis was often at war with disagreeing with Sparta and Elis would go, well, I'm banning you from the Olympic Games then to Sparta when they didn't like what Sparta was. So there were periods of time where Sparta was actually banned from going to the Olympic Games.

But if they did get a chance to go and if a Spartan won, this is the thing I love about Spartan, which goes to the heart of everything you want to think about Sparta. They got their crown of Oliver Heath. Great, great. And then they went back and they got a special prize back in Sparta. Now if you were in Athens and you won,

you got free meals for life. Amazing. Like a Nando's gold card. Yeah, exactly. You got a bunch of money, you got free meals for life. Oh, amazing. You got a bunch of money. Like a Nando's gold card or whatever. Yeah, exactly. You got a bunch of money. You got free meals for life on the city. You choose a hero. If you won, you went back to Sparta and said,

congratulations, you now have the honour of standing next to the king in the front line of battle. And you're like, awesome. Awesome. Great. I mean, there is a Spartan called, is it Lycas? and you're like awesome awesome great I mean there is a Spartan called is it Lycas

Lycas who tries to sneak in during one of these banning phases where the Spartans aren't allowed to compete and he says no I'm a

I'm a Theban definitely a Theban not a Spartan look at me I'm so Theban I speak with a Theban lisp he's caught

found out what do you think happens to him Shappi oh something horrible What do you think happens to him, Shappi? Oh, something horrible. What do you think is horrible? Well, you know I'm going to talk about something being chopped off. Oh, well, I mean, okay. Yes.

No, well, tell us. I don't want people to think I'm really coarse saying, was his willy chopped off? I mean, it wasn't. Oh, thank goodness for that. His nose? No, he was sort of whipped brutally, wasn't he? How did they find out?

I mean, because they whipped the man, right? So they must have been really sure. How distinctive were the Greeks? I'm really curious. This is the bit that's going to stay with me. So he would have had to put on an accent because the Thebans did speak differently from his partners. Oh, that's great.

So he's already doing it really offensive. He's already doing his comedy-driven accent. The way people talked about the the Spartans. Oh, that's great. So he's already doing a really offensive He's already doing his like comedy thing with an accent. The way people talked about the Thebans. Peter Sellers accent. Peter Sellers sort of accent. Well, the Thebans

were always thought of as being really quite dodgy, gluttonous, chatty people. And the Spartans are famously not chatty. Exactly. So not only is he going to

have a put on an accent, but he's got to do a lot of talking. So I think it was pretty, he could have picked someone closer by that would have been easier to kind of masquerade as we picked the worst possible yeah he was like i'll be thievin oh hang on a sec one word answers don't go down very well eating his porridge exactly

the people are supposed to be gluttonous like kind of eating all the nice stuff they're supposed to be really chatty which is pretty much the antithesis of oh i love the idea of undercover spartan that's a really funny TV show. OK, so he was whipped rather brutally. Shappi, what do you think happened to a woman who might have snuck in to watch the Olympic Games? Oh, gosh. Was she whipped too?

I tell you what, I'm just thinking of... I'm thinking of Iran. It's only recently they've allocated certain seats to women in football stadiums. I don't know what they did. What were they into? Something horrible. Shave their heads.

Worse than that, I'm afraid. Cut their nipples off. Chucked them off a mountain. No! But then there was another woman who got away with it. Yes. Because she managed to sort of basically go, look, I'm related to this winner.

I'm kind of supporting that winner. I kind of had such a good lineage that basically they couldn't bring themselves to chuck what a gamble to take though you know i've i've sort of lied to get into clubs before you know i've lied about my age lied about who i know you know had to sort of go and borrow some shoes to get rid of my trainers but to know that they're just gonna grab you and throw you off a cliff. Did these people just really very strongly believe in an afterlife? So they weren't that arsed about dying.

There was definitely an afterlife. But the rules are the rules about the Olympic Games. And don't forget, this is all happening as a religious ceremony to the gods. So the big worry is that if they break the rules, they'll offend the gods. They're offending the gods. And if there's anyone you don't want to offend and piss off, it's the gods. So the big worry is that if they break the rule, they'll offend the gods. They're offending the gods. And if there's anyone you don't want to offend and piss off, it's the gods

and the king of the gods, Zeus. So kind of dressed up in that sense that this is not just a kind of games, this is a religious ritual that's going on.

It takes on that kind of atmosphere. Do you know, I get it now. If I was there, I'd just throw myself off the cliff. Straight off? Yes, just, oh, the Olympics are on, let's go, girls. Just Thelma and Louise it off a cliff to appease youth.

The name of that lady was Calipatera, I think. And yeah, she got away with it because apparently she was related to an Olympic boxer. But the whole story around it is that she'd done brilliantly. She'd much better than the Spartan. Dressed up, in in disguise as a man. No one could recognise her. And then she got a bit excited at the match.

And jumped over the barrier. And as a result, tripped over and exposed herself. So you were one of these things where you're like, you were so good, you were doing so well. But then you pouted in a selfie. So how do you think they got around the problem of women disguising themselves as trainers? Because, you know, trainers were allowed to be in the kind of, not shoes. You know I was thinking of shoes.

I'd love to see it. I'd love to see a woman disguising herself as footwear. You know it's going to be next season's fashion haute couture design. I guess trainers wouldn't necessarily be really butch, would they? They'd just be knowledgeable, I guess. Did they ask them questions regarding their... They basically made everyone naked. So trainers, naked.

People competing, naked. Everyone naked. Basically, they wanted to see the D in your ID, essentially. OK, so we've talked about the ancient Greek Olympics. Can we fast forward a little bit to the ancient Roman Greek Olympics? Because you've heard of Emperor Nero, I assume. He was one of history's most sort of notorious idiots and sort of assholes. But also, he really wanted to compete in the Olympics.

Now, Shappi, do you want to have a little guess at what he did to make sure that he could compete in the specific year he wanted to compete? He made up a rule that certain games you could only take part in if you were an emperor. That's really good. Yeah, it's not far off. I think that's genius. I mean, it's mostly that, isn't it, really? That's exactly the sort of thing Emperor Nero would do.

The first thing he did is he moved the games from the four-year calendar. He just moved it two years. He went, I'm coming this year, so hold it then. And then he just made all the events things that he was good at. Like the emperors, javelin, the emperors, discus, the emperors. Poetry. Poetry? Music.

Really? Yeah, and then he competed in the chariot race. And what happened, Michael? When you're saying he was competing in the chariot race and what happened Michael? when you're saying he was competing in the chariot race he didn't win because he sort of fell off but he was declared

the winner because as we all know if he hadn't fallen off he would have won yes in fact miraculously he won

every single event he entered was the emperor Nero three years old? no he was considerably older than three. He sounds like a brilliant toddler. He did his tour of ancient Greece

that summer and crowns all over him. It's something like 600 prizes or something stupid, isn't it? It's like he competed in all the games and just won every event in every game and apparently people were paid to cheer for him or they were sort of forced, they were locked into the stadium,

they couldn't leave. I mean, what a guy. That's great. It sounds like one of my birthday parties. So he... We had a friend, she had a parlour game. She'd always come to parties and insisted we played this game

and it was always a quiz based on her life. So she would ask people questions and the answer was always something in her life. So see if you knew her well enough to win the quiz. And she always won the quiz herself. Genius, isn't it?

I guess for Nero, it got to come home with all the medals, claiming to be the greatest Olympian of all time. And actually, by that stage, you think the Greek world is desperately trying to work out how does it stay afloat in the much bigger Roman world? How do we still have value? We don't have a big enough army. We don't make anything as amazing. We're not kind of as politically powerful in any way, shape or form. All we've got at this stage is our history and our culture and our heritage.

So you have to think of Greece as a kind of Disneyland for Romans where the Romans went for a bit of finishing school, a bit of rhetoric, a bit of philosophy, a bit of kind of competing in the Olympics, whatever. And Greece basically survived off this rep. So getting Nero to rock up at the Olympic Games, giving him every medal under the sun, damn good PR,

because it meant that every other Roman would want to come and do the same in future years. So it was just genius tourism tactics. Shappi, there was a very famous chap called Arikion, I believe. Have I spelled that

correctly? Just about. Just about. That's no. Arikion, come on, give him the right one. That will do.

Arikion, okay. Arikion was a very famous champion but his victory in the wrestling was somewhat unusual. Do you want to guess why?

He tickled them. Oh, I love it. He bit them. He did not bite them. I think tickling, though, is excellent. I mean, that would be an amazing strategy. Yeah, more victories due to tickling. Well, I come from a long line of wrestlers.

All the men in my mum's family are wrestlers. Could you tell? I was about to say that, and then I thought, that sounds really insulting. None taken. No, but it's really odd when you said that the eye gouging was a silly rule. I was like, wow, you're hardcore. Where's this come from?

My mum always used to make me and my brother wrestle all the time. Family would come over, what are we going to do today? We're going to wrestle. Seriously, we would wrestle all the time. And because we were kids, one thing we were allowed to do that the adults weren't allowed to do was tickle. So that when they wrestled us... You could wrestle, but not tickle. I love it. Yeah to do was tickle. So that when they wrestled... You could wrestle but not tickle. Like, I love it.

Yeah, we could tickle. And then I'd be penalised because I'd always tickle my brother when we were wrestling. This is sounding a lot stranger than I meant it to, but we didn't have computers in those days. Sure. Anyway, moving on.

Arik Bion did not tickle his opponent. But in terms of his trophy, basically he was dead. He was winning the fight, but he was strangled. Oh, gosh. So it was one of those things where it was all about not giving in. So Arachion was being strangled by his opponent. But he, instead of trying to get the guy off his throat, went to break his toe and his foot.

But he, instead of trying to get the guy off his throat, went to break his toe and his foot. And so the other guy, kind of just as Arakhan dies of asphyxiation, goes, I can't take the pain in my foot anymore. And kind of gives up. The dead guy was the one who hadn't given up. Oh, I see. So he was the winner.

So they crowned the dead guy and sort of parade him as the victor around. I mean, that's a fantastic ceremony, isn't it? I mean, that's the podium you want to see. I mean, kind of holding a chicken. Corpse holding a chicken with a crown on his head. Was the alive guy really annoyed at himself? Damn it. Yeah, the live guy was, I've only had lice just a little longer on my foot.

I would have been dead up there. My mother won't ever look at me ever again. He gets home, everyone's like, oh, there's the loser. A new breathing bastard. It's all a bit much, isn't it? It would have been absolutely intense, in-your-face competition. Yeah, I mean, I think there's another story. The names, I think it's Crogus and Damoxenos, I think.

One of them has grown his fingernails very long and gouges out the intestines of the other oh yeah yeah come on they've been like punching away each other all day neither would fall over or give in so they're like christ we've got to get this thing to an end somehow so they were each given one move one punch right kind of who could do maximum damage so one of them goes in the face you know with a massive punch other guy sways a little bit but doesn't fall down. Then the other guy goes in with his hand into the stomach, up, pulls out all the intestines,

but was disqualified because that was more than one move. So another dead guy gets crowned the victor. I love the idea of VAR, like some sort of video ref kind of going, oh, that's actually two moves. Two moves. So you're disqualified and the dead guy wins. The rules matter. How does the Olympics come to an end in both senses? Firstly, is there a closing ceremony?

Do they get the Spice Girls on taxis to drive around? So there's sort of final rituals again because it is a religious ceremony and that has to be closed off and sorted out and kind of everything. And then everyone dissipates. So nothing like the kind of closing ceremony that we're used to. I suspect most of people would just be utterly exhausted and fed up and tired

and pretty full of all that 100 oxen meat and would be lying around dozing in the sunshine with a bit of indigestion. Okay. The true spirit of the game. Typical post-Glasto kind of feel, really, isn't it? Hanover, full, sunburned. the true spirit of the game typical typical post post Glastow kind of feel really isn't it

hungover full sunburned absolutely having watched a man kill another man yeah and also

what about the toilets I mean how many people are we talking here in this stadium so yeah no toilets those two rivers so on day five

those two rivers are for your everything you're washing you're pooing. Oh, no. So they camped out for five days and pooed in the river. The Olympic village would have been pretty sordid. Literally a shithole.

How does the actual Olympics as an idea end? Because it was revived in the late 19th century by Baron de Coupertin and Hitler obviously gave it a nasty fascist twist. But how does the Greek Olympics stop being a Greek thing and just sort of, you know, drifts off? Why? Well, I mean, it carries on under the Romans. In their Disneyland kind of come and win an award kind of style. And the only thing that really kills it off is the conversion of the Roman Empire to Christianity.

of is the conversion of the Roman Empire to Christianity. Because once you've got the Roman Empire officially Christian from the end of the 4th century AD onwards, the Olympics are a religious ritual to the pagan gods. So they can't continue. I mean, they do, a little bit,

because everyone's like, yeah, but we really like the Olympic Games, so maybe we just dial down the pagan bit and we up the games bit. But they slowly peter out, and then officially all pagan sanctuaries are banned. So this is about 400 CE, AD? Yeah, the Olympics actually probably limp on for maybe another century.

So essentially the story of the Olympics in the ancient world is 776 BC to about 500 AD, which is, what, 1,200 years? I mean, that's a really impressive run, and then revived later on, so fair play. I think that sort of brings us, actually, to my favourite part of the show, which is the nuance window. The nuance window!

This is where our expert historian is unleashed. They can geek out for two uninterrupted minutes, Shappi and I go quiet and just bask in the wisdom. Michael, what are you going to talk to us about? Well, I want to take us back to that thing we've been circling around a couple of times, which was what it was really like to be at the ancient Olympics. Oh, lovely. All right, two minutes on the clock.

Take it away. We have to imagine this was summertime in ancient Greece. 40 degree heat probably the biggest conglomeration of greeks that ever came together anywhere in the ancient greek world so maybe 40 50 000 people they're camping out around the sanctuary of olympia they're in tents they've got those two rivers to bathe in poo poo in, do everything. They've all probably brought some animals with them that are also pooing that need feeding as well. And so 40,000, 50,000 people for five, six days are camped out in the blazing Greek heat without any sanitation. And there's going to be tons of food sellers there.

There's going to be not just the athletes punching each other up and, of course, those hundred oxen with all their throats slit and blood everywhere and then being cooked on a massive barbecue. But there's going to be historians reciting their histories. So Herodotus recited his histories from the steps of the Temple of Zeus. There's going to be politicians banging on and trying to prove how amazing they are. There was a politician who, in 416 BCE, decided to pay for everyone's dinner one night for the 40,000 people trying to prove how amazing they are. There was a politician who, in 416 BCE,

decided to pay for everyone's dinner one night for the 40,000 people just to kind of show off his largesse. So this was actually not a very pleasant place to be. And there was even an altar dedicated at Olympia to Zeus Apomuios, which translates as Zeus, the swatter of flies. So you can imagine there must have been a bit of a fly problem there as well. And we have a couple of statements from ancient sources. Plato, rocked up at the Olympics, couldn't get a tent, couldn't find anywhere to stay.

Poor bugger. Epictetus, a philosopher, goes on about, oh, don't you hate the din and the heat and everything and it's awful. And my favourite of all of them is a guy called Alien, an ancient writer called Alien, who went, you know what? If you want to punish a slave, you send him to the Olympic Games. And that is how I'd like you

to remember the ancient Olympics. Two minutes on the... Exactly two minutes, and basically what he's saying is the Olympics were awful. Horrible squalid... Absolute shit hole. Violent, smelly, noisy. In every possible way. And the women still risk getting thrown off a cliff.

I mean, fair play to them. They really, you know, they didn't want to be excluded. Oh, anything for an easy life. I would just sit at home, wait for them to come home and run them a bath. Is that really Stepford Wife of me? You do what you like. I just want to go back in time and wash everyone. They're filthy.

I can't bear it. So what do you know now? All right, so it feels like we've learned some stuff, which means, Shappi, it's time for you to be quizzed. This is the So What Do You Know Now? This is where we put you to the test. There are 10 questions. I've got 60 seconds on the timer. Last time out, you had a very tricky episode, Justinian and Theodora, Byzantinian history. You got six out of 10, which is a pretty good score. I think you can beat it. I have confidence

in you. I hope so. I panic. I panic a bit in quizzes. And also you have a lava lamp, so I'm half hypnotised here as well. It's not my lava lamp, but it is very neon pink. Yeah. And it is just sort of gently bubbling away. So let's see if it distracts you or maybe puts you in the zone. You might become like a sort of Zen master.

So here we go. 60 seconds on the clock. Ten questions. Shappi Korsandi, first question. When was the first Olympic Games held? In which year? In 776 BC. Woohoo! Nailed it! Olympia was home to one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. It wasn't Tom Daley, but it was a statue of who? Of Zeus.

Zeus it was. Woohoo! Sorry, too many for me. Please do. I'm a lovely enthusiast. How often did the Olympic Games take place? Every four years. Every four years.

Go, Jappy! How many days was the Olympic Games? Five days. Five, I mean... Rock on! We are rock... You're loving cheerleading, Professor. I'm loving it. Anyone got any pom-poms?

During the first Olympic Games, there was only one event called the stadion, which was what? The stadion, which was the running. It was the running 200-metre foot race. What did victorious Olympians win? They won a wreath made of various foliage. Yeah, foliage. Crown of olives, I'm excited. Crown of olives.

But foliage is not. I think celery was a smear, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. A laurel. A laurel, yeah. Question seven. What made the Pankration fighting champion Arrachion's final win a bit weird? Oh, hold on a moment.

Hold on. It made it a bit weird because he was dead. He was dead, absolutely. Oh, she's a legend. Eighth question. Who was not permitted to watch the Olympics? Women. What kind of women? What kind of women?

What kind of women? I mean, not like what species. What kind of women? Married women. Married women. Married women, yes, very good. Thank you, you're a very good professor. What was the so-called Olympic truce,

which might have been a bit legendary? Oh, the countries at war didn't kill each other during that period. Yes, and people travelling would be able to travel safely. Yes. Potentially. I mean, it might be a bit legendary, but we're having it. Tenth question. You are on nine so far, so this could be a glorious, perfect run.

So excited. Roughly when did the ancient Olympics end? In which year, roughly? It was something, something AD. 400 and something AD. Go slightly higher. Higher. 400.

400 to 500. 500. Us in the right ballpark. I think it's a 10 out of 10. 10 out of 10. We're winning Laurel Reef. You get meals for life. And the right.

And the right. Stand next to your king. And also we'll build a statue of you. Where do you want the statue placed? I want it at Trafalgar Square. I mean, that's probably quite pricey. Can you go somewhere cheaper? Eden Broadway Shopping Centre. That's fine.

Yes, we can do that for you. Just in the middle there. Statue of you, triumphant with your quiz. I think we've come to the end of the pod. I hope you've enjoyed your journey to ancient Greece, Shappi. It's been really fun. I've learned quite a lot as well. There's been some slightly traumatising moments, but we'll move on.

It's hard to stomach, I'll be honest. If you've enjoyed today's podcast, please do share it with your friends or leave a review online and make sure to subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds so you never miss an episode. There's a whole lovely back catalogue of episodes from Series 1 just sitting there, including, of course, Lord Byron, who was a fan of Greek culture.

And if you want more sporting history, there's a lovely episode on the history of football as well. But for now, let me say a Zeus-sized thank you to our lovely guests. In History Corner, Professor Michael Scott from the University of Warwick. And in Comedy Corner, stand-up legend Shappi Korsandi. I'm sure their respective towns will be building statues of them soon. We know Ealing Broadway Shopping Centre for you. Michael, where's yours going? Oh, well, I mean, maybe I can ask

the University of Warwick to put it somewhere. Yeah, in the canteen. Yeah, in the canteen. No worries. We'll send in an email. Alright, well, hopefully they won't be naked statues, and if they are, I'm sure they'll be glorious. No offence, guys. But, you know, I have great confidence in both of you. Anyway, with that, I'm off to go limber up and go for a bit of a jog.

I'll see you next time. Thanks very much. Bye. You're Dead to Me was a Muddy Knees media production for BBC Radio 4. The researcher was Olivia Croyle. The script was by Emma Magoose. The project manager was Isla Matthews. And the producer was Cornelius Mendez.

The project manager was Isla Matthews and the She was very confident in her words. And yet, it was all a lie. She's a con artist. Join journalist Vicky Baker as she delves into a real-life scandal. We'll mix drama with documentary to tell the story of Anna Delvey's rise and fall. Fake Heiress, a new six-part podcast on BBC Sounds. I was watching this whole thing happen thinking it can't be true.

Download the free app to listen.