You're Dead to Me - The History of General Elections

Episode Date: November 22, 2019

You’re Dead To Me returns for a special episode on The History of General Elections. Welcome to the world of “bludgeon men”, “potwallopers”, and electorates of sheep (!). Travel back to the 18th Century, when Number 10 was number 5 (yes, really) and discover not just how voter rights have changed, but where they originated. Host Greg Jenner is joined by historian Dr Hannah Nicholson and comedian Catherine Bohart.

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to a very special episode of You're Dead to Me, a history podcast for people who don't like history, or at least people who forgot to learn any at school. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author, and I'm the chief nerd on the BBC comedy show Horrible Histories. And if you've not heard

this before, the podcast is basically a coalition government between the rival parties of fun and facts under my feeble leadership. Today, we are taking a trip to the polling booths of Britain in the 18th and early 19th centuries to chat generally about the general history of general elections, hosted by me, Greg General. Sorry, Jenna. As ever, I am joined by two very special guests. In History Corner, she's an expert on 18th and 19th century culture and political history, specialising in the history of elections, which is pretty handy. From the University of Nottingham is Dr Hannah Nicholson.

Hi, Hannah. Thanks for coming. Hi, Greg. Thanks for having me. How did you become a historian of politics? What's the route in? So when I was at school, I really hated political history. And my 18-year-old self would be appalled that this is what I'm doing. But when I was doing my MA dissertation, I found a really great handbill, which is sort of the modern day equivalent of what you get in your letterboxes when there's an election. And I just thought it was the coolest thing.

And I needed to write more about it and find a way to write more about it. Well, that's pretty awesome. In Comedy Corner, she is making a sensational return to the pod after a crash course in all things Joan of Arc. She's a classically trained actress, a classically unrestrained comedian. You've seen her on The Mash Report, 8 Out of 10 Cats, loads of other stuff. And you may have seen her touring show, Lemon, which is wonderful. It is Catherine Bohart. Hello.

Welcome back. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here. I really enjoyed it last time. I learnt loads. You did really well last time. You got like 9 out of 10 on the quiz. You were bossing it. I listen. I mean, I didn't know anything, but I sure was open to learning. That's the best way. Yeah. I really enjoyed it. I'm glad to be here.

Thank you for having me. Normally we ask you how you like history but we know that you like history and that you studied it so I'm going to ask you a different question. What's your favourite kind of polling station?

Ooh. I'm going to say classic like I love a community centre. I love an Irish polling centre because you know everyone there so there's no sense of how's anyone going to vote you know how they're voting

Have you ever seen anyone coming not sure like there's not John from the village who's like No his wife will have told him like he knows what he's doing

No I love an Irish polling station I will absolutely say that but I will say in my I know you said that I studied history I will say I largely

studied social history and American political history. So I definitely avoided this particular topic and certainly this particular era in every possible way. So I'm very excited to learn. Good. For the record, I love a primary school polling station. I just like democracy being accompanied by mini beasts on the wall

and very small chairs. I find it very having to really squat to go to the loo yeah yeah i love it and just sort of you know everything is sort of very beautifully pink and blue and tasseled papers on the wall and everyone's done all the sort of coloring and you go oh yeah democracy yeah in a very highly gendered school yeah i love it so what do you know? Alright, well we begin the podcast as ever with the So What Do You Know? And this is where I try and guess what you at home might know about the subject.

Yeah, tricky isn't it? You all know that elections decide who's in power, what political party is going to run the country. But unless you did a very dry module in A-level history, you probably don't know much about the history of elections. They have been around since medieval times, and you obviously will know the story of 1918 and working-class men and some women getting the vote. You may have seen the movie with Meryl Streep, Suffragettes. You may have heard of Emmeline Pankhurst. But we're talking about the 18th century,

which is not really part of our lexicon culturally. So I'm guessing it's probably Blackadder. That's what you've probably heard, isn't it? You've seen Blackadder and in your head you're thinking, Baldrick, MP, bribery, corruption, foolishness and idiocy. Well, maybe that's true and we're going to find out because certainly the 18th century is renowned for electoral corruption, but maybe that's not true. Today we're talking about the period of history. but maybe that's not true. Today we are talking about the period of history. The Act of Union 1707 is England, Wales and Scotland joining up to become Great Britain.

That's our start point. And we're going up to 1832, which is the Great Reform Act. So it's about 125 years, I think. So, Hannah, what is a general election? And when do we start to see them in Britain? And what kind of political parties are we talking about? Okay, so a general election is when UK citizens vote on who will represent them and their local area in the House of Commons.

As you said earlier, Parliament was essentially a medieval institution, and the practice of sending two elected representatives to Parliament from each town and each shire in the country. It dates from about the 1290s. But in terms of the period that we're talking about, the first British general election took place in 1708, a year after the Act of Union in 1707. So to get a bit more of a background picture, from the early 1700s until 1911,

a Parliament sits for seven years unless the monarch dies. That's intense. Yeah, I mean, they really commit, don't they? Wait a second. Unless the monarch dies? Yeah, so if a monarch's like, oh, I've got the sniffles, and then boom, dead, then they have to do a new parliament. They've got to have a new election. Seems like a bizarre choice, given that the monarch's unelected, to be like, the elected representatives should go to the polls again because some random dude who's, sorry,

in power because of a real God who definitely gave him the power. Here we go. Has popped his clogs. Or her cogs. I mean, you know, Queen Anne died. I'm so sorry, you're right. I always forget how many women are in politics in the 1700s.

Is it a wash with clunge? I'm sure it is. Sorry, the Queen could die. Queen Anne died and then they got George I and he's the first Hanoverian. And then it's a lot of blokes, in fairness. But there were Lady Queens. Lady Queens. Or Lady Kings, I suppose, technically speaking.

No, I liked Lady Queens. We're in Soho. You need to clarify. True, that's true. I got it. So it's every seven years, this Parliament. And it's also in this period that we get a Prime Minister. Now, I'm going to ask if you know the first ever prime minister.

Have you ever heard of this person? Give us a guess. Give us your best political name from the 18th century. Oh, I don't have one. That makes me really uncomfortable. I'm like, all of mine are way too late. All right. Does it begin with a P?

Does it begin with a P? There is one that begins with a P. There is one beginning with a P, but that's later. Damn it. So Robert Walpole. Wasn't even close. Not even like, I was, no, not even close. But there were no prime ministers before this.

Right. Okay. Hannah. So Robert Walpole essentially emerged as prime minister, sort of a party as a result of a split in his party, the Whig Party. Okay. So this split helped him to consolidate his power. Then later in 1721, he was appointed First Lord of the Treasury, Chancellor of the Exchequer,

and Leader of the House of Commons. So this essentially was him being Prime Minister, but the term didn't really exist as an official title as we would use it today. And who was considered top row row of the house then until then? Well prior to that you have privy councillors so the whole role of parliament is to counsel and advise the king or the queen but at this period in history we've had a constitutional reform, that's fun isn't it, in the 1680s which is the bringing in of the constitutional monarchy which we now have today. Now the crucial thing about Walpole, the reason he sort of steps up is that the king doesn't speak English.

That's the main reason. What? What does he speak? What do you think he speaks? I don't know. French? No. Oh, that'd be nice.

No, German. German? George I is a Hanoverian. He's dropped into the role because he's a Protestant and they don't want a Catholic king. So they go hunting through the family tree and they go way down the family tree, like way, way, way down it,

and they find this random German bloke and go, he'll be the king of England and Scotland and wherever. They drop him in and his name is George I and he doesn't speak a word of English. They're so anti-Catholic kings that they're like, call up George there. Go on. Get the German on the phone to him

and we'll have George in. Yeah. He's the first king of the Georgian dynasty. He is a George. And he doesn't speak English. And there is this huge economic crisis called the South Sea Bubble, which is a sort of...

It's like... Remember the dot-com bubble? Remember when people went mad for Napster and early Amazon websites and things like that. People crazily overinflated the value of Internet stuff. It's a bit like that, but in the 1720s. OK. I mean, those are basically as far ago, as long ago to me. I'm looking at you like, no.

You're a younger lady now. I'm an old man now. So I'm like, hey, you remember that thing that happened when you were tiny? No. All right. So there was a massive overinflation. The economy is in trouble. Rather than advising the king, as normally the Privy Council do, suddenly there's an awful lot of admin to be done. And you have a fella called Robert Walpole who's like, well, I've got this.

And I mean, he's in power for how many years, Hannah? 20 years. What? That's really impressive. 20 years. Is he good? He wasn't especially popular. How did he stay in power then?

So largely as a result of getting rid of a large cabinet and sort of through the help of the power of the king and sort of popular patronage. Oh, okay. So he sort of sneaks his way around, does he? Yeah, so he was accused of bribery and corruption in his efforts to sort of keep clinging on to power. God, we'd never put up with that these days.

No. And then his ambitions were said to be rivaling the power of the king, so he wasn't altogether that popular. The other weird thing is, Prime Minister is an insult. What? Yeah. So his job was First Lord of the Treasury. OK.

That's his official title. And I think it's still on the letterbox on Downing Street, I think. Official stationery, I think, of Downing Street might still be like First Lord of the Treasury. And why is Prime Minister an insult? So it was used as sort of a term of abuse in the sense it implied that an individual had risen wrongly above sort of others within the royal circle. Wow. He's the Prime Minister. It's a bit like, you know,

the teacher's pet. Teacher's pet. Yeah. I love that. That's great. Has anyone ever insulted you and you've sort of reclaimed it and gone, you know what,

I'm embracing this. This is me now. Yeah, but I'm not sure your listeners want to hear about how I sometimes refer to myself as the, like, excitable dyke. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, that's not,

I'm not sure the BBC listeners are going to be like, that's the same. Excitable dyke's a great name. Right? That would be your wrestling name. I think so. Yeah, let's say wrestling.

In the blue corner, weighing in at not many pounds, the Excitable Dyke. So Robert Walpole is also given 10 Downing Street. And it's a gift. From whom? From the king. But he refuses it. He says, no, not having it, don't want it. And he says instead, it should be used for whoever holds the role.

So whoever has the job gets to sort of live in it for a bit. So it's Walpole who essentially kind of goes, I don't want your house. It should be an official office for the prime minister. Basie's like, no, no, I wouldn't take a house from the king. Obviously I'll use it for 20 years. And then like whoever might whoever might be it'll probably be me might be able to use it oh please okay great uh it's also at the time known as five downing street what yeah they sort of rearranged the street numbers what's all the bombshells lads five yeah i mean it's not as good is it five downing street it doesn't sound it doesn't have the same ring to it no five downing street sounds

like a primary school actually now that you say it. All right, well, we need to get on to how people voted then. I mean, obviously, we've heard about Walpole claiming power, but how does electoral politics work? What defines who gets to vote? So the main people who couldn't vote in this era were women, as you say, also those under the age of 21 who were considered minors. Okay.

But also whether you had the right to vote or not varied across the country. So according to what kind of constituency in which you lived, in some constituencies, especially those with large numbers of voters, where a high proportion of the population could vote, there was a relatively high proportion of all adult men, including certain members of the working classes, such as labourers or unskilled craftsmen. But then in some other areas, it was only those who owned their own homes who were able to vote.

And also until 1829, Catholics were unable to vote. How is it that it changes constituency to constituency, whether or not you can vote? Because there's about five different types of borough constituencies, all with their own rules as to who could vote. Yeah, so you've got the counties that vote with a 40 shilling valuation of freehold land. Then you've got the freeman boroughs, where people who have freeman status get to be granted by apprenticeship, purchase of marriage, or the daughter marrying into a freeman's family. Then you've got the Scotland lot boroughs. The vote goes to the household property owned by the occupiers.

Then you've got the corporation boroughs. The vote went with membership if you belong to a corporation. And then you've got the burgage boroughs. And then my favourite one, Catherine, can you guess what a pot walloper borough is? A pot walloper? A pot walloper. It sounds like that borough is high on life. Pot walloper, I don't know.

Okay, so pot walloper, or householder boroughs as they were also known, enabled all householders who had a hearth where they could boil a pot and lived in the property to vote. Wow. So it's just varying degrees of classism. Yeah. Okay, sweet. And every area's sort of got its own weird rules

and it's all very strange and very confusing. Right, so no women, but as long as the men own a hearth where a pot will be boiled where they'll probably never boil it, then they can vote while she boils the pot. Give me a break. Okay. but as long as the men own a hearth where a pot will be boiled where they'll probably never boil it, then they can vote while she boils the pot. Give me a break. And if they've got a specific trade or if they belong to a certain corporation, they might get it. So everywhere you go has got its own little local customs and rules.

If you were running some sort of despotic tyranny, and I'm not saying you are, Catherine, because you seem very nice, what rules would you put in place to stop people you don't like from voting? For me, anyone who puts carrots in spaghetti bolognese. Instant exclusion. I have just lost my vote in your... Are you a carrot bolognese lady? Yeah, but I'm a vegetarian. What else are we putting in there?

I'm sorry, I'm not standing for it. So where are you drawing your line, is what I'm saying. I guess I'm people who don't move down in the tube when it's clearly got space. those people should lose their vote instantly. Also, people who bring their dogs to workplaces and then don't want to share their dog with the other people who are at the workplace. It's like, I'm sorry, this is a public space, so your dog's public and I want to play with him. It's not your dog, it's an office dog now.

It's an office dog now. It's a communal dog. The dog and I will see you later. I think that's a pretty good mandate for power. I think so. If you put that in your manifesto, I think people would vote for... Great. Definitely the dog thing.

Yeah. You'd pick up a lot of voters there. The reason you've got all these sort of weird little rules in place is to keep some people out from voting. Some people aren't allowed, women certainly not, because women can't be trusted to have opinions. You wouldn't know what time of the month they'd vote for all on. Do you know what I mean?

Well, sure. You couldn't be trusted. Imagine. You know, the terrifying chaos of ladies with opinions who were hormonal. You'd need someone to wipe the floors. It'd be a nightmare. An absolute nightmare. But 1801, it's thought that about half a million people were allowed to vote,

which is about 16% of adults. So there is a relatively large electorate in terms of people, but it's not a good number in terms of ratios. Is your vote public? Ah, well, let's get on to that. Sorry, I keep asking questions. No, no, that's good. Let's move on to it. It turns out I actually love old school elections.

I didn't realise I had so many questions, but I'm really into this. Great. It's cooler than people think. Yeah. It's more like an episode of Survivor than like, it's great. It's like, you can vote, you can't vote. We'll need to know what your vote is. Yeah, exactly.

You can vote as long as there's a dog in the office. Yeah. Hannah, are people voting publicly? Yeah. So until 1872, Secret Ballot Act, all votes were public. People generally got two votes each, unless it was like a by-election or something in which case you'd only get one vote okay two votes so you get to vote for two mps two mps because each constituency or most constituencies have two mps each oh i would vote

for the same person twice i really like steve he's in both my votes i feel like that would be a waste of your privilege white man with your property. We can't be trusted, white men. No. Sorry. Let's talk, I guess, corruption. The Blackadder episode tells us that corruption was rife in elections. Can we talk about Old Sarum?

Because that is surely the thing that everyone who vaguely knows this story knows, that particular case study. Old Sarum is a sort of medieval village that's been abandoned. Yeah. And it's on a hill. Yeah, so it's a Wiltshire borough, which essentially, as you say, was an abandoned village on a hill, but still sent two MPs to Parliament,

despite the constituents only being a flock of sheep. But there were technically 11 voters. They weren't the sheep. They weren't the sheep, yeah. Flossy mossy. So 11 voters. Where weren't the sheep. They weren't the sheep, yeah. Flossy, mossy. So, 11 voters. Where do you think they lived? I'm going to guess it wasn't there.

I'm going to say it was at least bottom of the hill. No. Do they even live in Wiltshire? Some of them. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's appalling.

So, do they have to go to a polling station on the hill or do they just vote? Do they post in their vote? They did have to come back, didn't they? Yeah, so each poll was only open in one place in the constituency. So everybody who would vote, no matter how far away you lived, would have to go to that one place and vote. All 11 of them. Wow.

So, you know, you talk about dogs in the office, but sheep at polling stations. Yeah. I think people would get on board with a corrupt democracy if there were more sheep involved. Maybe you're right. Maybe you're right.

Or dogs, I think. But okay. How long did it go on with people voting there until anybody was like, what the hell, dude? There's nobody living there. Until 1832.

Yeah. What? From 1708? Yeah. Give me a break. And the seat was living there. Until 1832? Yeah. What? From 1708? Yeah. Give me a break. And the seat was so valuable, well, the two seats, the land was so valuable

because it essentially gave you a guaranteed position in Parliament. So the land was worth £700 in terms of agricultural land. In terms of, like, sheep land, 700 quid, it was sold for, guess how much?

I'm going to say, like, £2,100. Three times. £60,000. What? Which at the time is...illions yeah tens of millions yeah yeah bazillions is probably more technically right but sure greg you can guess too and i'm right also i believe hannah the property leases were temporarily lent to people's friends oh my god you could say hey, you technically own this for like this afternoon Do you want a lend of my vote?

Yeah Of course you could because it's just like a pencil case or a cup of sugar You just have a borrower of that I mean we do it with Netflix accounts Yeah, totally, totally the same Yeah, so in some cases this did happen Especially in constituencies more than borrower elections But you also got the threat of eviction

So if you didn't vote in the way that your landlord sort of expected, if they had control of the constituency, they could sort of throw you out of your house. Because that's obviously like coercive. Was it also like that's like a threat? Or was there also positive incentive? Did people just pay people to vote certain ways? There could be.

I mean, there's one MP famously who threw 500 guineas into the crowd as a sort of polite way of saying, vote for me. Yeah, cool. So bribery was rife. It wasn't bribery. It was just a gesture of goodwill. Oh, I'm sure.

It was treating the races. That's sort of the official term that they used. So an electorate of sheep, that's good. Lending your vote to your friends, that's great. People living there but not actually living there, that's lovely. 11 voters. And I thought First Past the Post was lovely. Yeah.

There's also, there's a story of the MP of Appleby in 1802. He has one voter. And we looked into this story. Sorry, what? And Hannah, you basically came up with an interesting conclusion on it. I looked at the election of 1802, which is when he sort of claimed he wrote in a letter to his wife

that only one voter selected him. So I looked and there's no election that took place in 1802 in the constituency of Appleby, which is where this happened. So what I think probably happened in this instance, often there was a nomination of the candidates. So people would just nominate who they wanted. And if there were two candidates and no other people in the running, there was no election. They'd got their two people they needed. So I think the one voter who he's talking about in the letter

is probably just one nominee. Wow, what a weird flex to your wife. To be like, in a way it's bragging, but in a way it's also like, what a sad version of events. Darling, I won with 100% of the votes. It's kind of not bragging, but in a way it's also like, what a sad version of events. Darling, I won with 100% of the votes. It's kind of not bragging, though. No, that's why I can't quite figure out if he is or isn't. It's like, oh, weird.

It's like, he could have left that detail out. Hannah, it sounds like running for office, that sounds quite expensive. Because there's bribery involved and you've got to go and you've got to presumably bribe a few people to vote for you and you've got to have your mates and you might have to buy the land. Elections were hugely expensive, so most of the money in most of the contests went on providing sort of food and drink for the voters. That's where a lot, sort of the bulk of money was spent.

Right, so you've got to sort of throw a bit of a party. Yeah, essentially. And Catherine, do you want to... I would prefer that if that was the case now. Well, okay, so I was going to say, so... To like negative campaigning or whatever they spend their money on or campaigning. I'm like, if it was just like who puts on the best party,

what a great time for voters that would be. I mean, obviously not. It would be like a sort of Taskmaster episode or something. Yeah, exactly. How many people can you feed with this much money? Great. And also, I guess polling at the time, well, these days, polling is one day, unless you do electoral votes where you send them in the post.

But now we go for one day to vote in an election. Do you want to guess how long polling was open for in the 18th century? Well, okay, so they had to be in situ to vote. But I mean, I hardly think people were coming internationally to vote.

So let's assume they have to get across country. I'm guessing they travel by horse. Yeah, cart, yep. I said all of that as if I was then going to be able to estimate how long it takes to get across the country by horse and cart when actually I have no idea I'm gonna say logically people should have had the benefit of like two weeks so generally polling

lasted a week but in some case it could go on for sort of weeks at a time there was a guy called Henry Brotham. I think he was an anti-slavery Whig, so a member of the Whig Party. It's really sad that you have to define that. He was actually anti-slavery. Yeah, he wasn't keen. That should be standard. He wasn't keen on it.

He looked at it. He thought, you know what? Not for me. Oh, my goodness. Are the Whigs the left at the time? Yeah, okay. Yeah, so ish. They're not really a left at this point in history.

On the spectrum of right, are they more centrist? They're more liberal than the Tories. But like Australian liberal rather than like liberal liberal. So you've got the Whigs with an H. Whig. And then you've got the Tories, the Conservatives. And those are the two main parties. And then there are sort of independents occasionally.

Yeah, you do get sort of independents. And sort of the organisation of party was quite different. So there was no national party sort of in terms of organisation. And was Brotham, is that his name? So Henry Brotham, I think, is a weird way of spelling it. I think it's Broom. Is it Broom? I think so.

I mean, Jesus. That is not what I thought you were going to say. B-R-O-U-G-H-A-M. I mean, if you want to call that Broom? Is it Broom? I think so. I mean, Jesus. What? Come on. That is not what I thought you were going to say. B-R-O-U-G-H-A-M. I mean, you want to call that Broom. You do that if you want. But my God, that's Brotham to me. That's amazing. You just got schooled.

I got schooled. On my own podcast. Well, this is why you have the PhD. That's amazing. He goes to Liverpool to contest it. He'd previously been an MP in a rotten borough in Cornwall. Okay, so not a totally great guy. Nope. But he goes to Liverpool and he's going to contest it. He'd previously been an MP in a rotten borough in Cornwall. I think he's not a totally great guy. Nope. But he goes to Liverpool and he's going to test it and he

gives 206 speeches and he loses. No, they were just sick of his voice! Like, there's so many speeches. So if you think about how much money he's thrown at this, probably. He's gone up there, this poll's been open for weeks, he's doing a speech every night, probably, to the electorate.

He still loses 206 times he's given that speech. How is it not a slam dunk post the abolition of slavery to be like, not into it, guys. Also, 206 speeches, man. I mean, there's a lot to be said against 24-hour media, but that's...

But not having to give the same speech 206 times is not one of them exactly i mean giving speeches and elections was also a really tough sort of gig as well yeah no microphones well yeah no microphones battling the elements oh and battling you know the sound of the crowd because you would get quite large crowds and they're not sort of all going to be listening intently to everything you're going to say so they're heckling so you get some amazing heckles not just heckles of course i mean so there's stuff being chucked. So do you want to guess, Catherine,

what gets chucked at them? People who are unpopular. I'm going to guess fruit and veg. Fruit and veg is fine. Yep, yep. Anything else? You look very worried right now. What else would they throw?

Okay. Not eggs. Yeah? Go worse? No. What's worse? Feces? Animal or like their own?

Animal. Well, okay. We assume animal feces because there's a lot of it about. It's on the street. It's on the floor. Stones, definitely. And then the most intriguing one, dead cats. I take it back.

Club gigs aren't that hard. Yeah, exactly. What are you complaining about? That's dead cats. Dead cats. And dogs. Dead dogs too. And dogs.

But I guess they're harder to throw. Yeah, they're a bit heavier. I love that you're like, obviously the impediment there is that dogs are harder to throw. Not that you shouldn't be throwing dead cats or dogs, just. What the hell? In terms of aerodynamics, a bigger dog, you know, you need a real big arm to chuck that. So obviously we've got a dead cat strategy now in modern politics, which is, you know, where you do a sort of bizarre distraction stunt.

It's called dead cat strategy, where you supposedly throw a dead cat on the table. And in the 18th century, you literally threw a dead cat. Wow. That's out of order, I would argue. It was quite a common thing in the 18th century. Aristocrats quite often, if they were unpopular, they would often be pelted with dead animals. It was sort of a thing.

So people chugged all sorts. Not much fun. But as you say, Hannah, loud, noisy, outdoors, raucous crowds. They would often be pelted with dead animals. It was sort of a thing. So people chugged all sorts. Not much fun. But as you say, Hannah, loud, noisy, outdoors, raucous crowds. You're trying to yell your speech. German shepherds being choked to your face. Depending on how the strength of the man who just likes your speech. Maybe get a team together and then coordinate throwing the negotiation. And then, you know, they're trying to bribe people. You're trying to incentivize them.

And as you say, Hannah, the secret vote comes in in 1872. Before that, it's public, isn't it? So the other thing, of course, with a public vote means that you can be intimidated. Do you want to guess what a bludgeon man is? I mean, I don't, but you're both looking at me. So I'm going to, not someone to like beat someone up if they vote the wrong way. Oh, yeah. Yeah, essentially.

It's a sort of large man with a stick. Guys, I mean, I'm laughing. That's really appalling. Yeah, essentially. It's a sort of large man with a stick. Guys, I mean, I'm laughing. That's really appalling. So they were often hired or selected from shipyards and sort of fighting rings and had been hired by each side to sort of intimidate the other. But you didn't always just get sort of the hired help who attacked or intimidated voters. So during the Nottingham election of 1802,

a group of young men and boys climbed on top of the polling booths. So there were polling booths in the 18th and 19th centuries, but they were sort of different to what we think of them as being today. So they're usually quite a large structure that's been erected, especially for this purpose. So the person would go inside through entering through one one side give the name of the person they wanted to vote for or people and then leave by the other exit but during the nottingham election some men and boys climbed on top of the polling booth so they were and sort of were able to see down into into the polling booth and see who was voting for the tory candidate daniel parker cook and then they were shouting down who had voted for Cook.

Wow. And then his supporters were attacked and it was sort of with stones and had their coats and jackets cut with knives. Whoa. I guess the other question is, why take part in all this stuff? Do the ordinary people in the street actually care about politics? Do they know what their MPs are voting for? Are they enjoying it?

Is it sort of like theatre? Is it spectacle? Yeah, so they were hugely politically engaged, partly as a result of a huge range of election canvases you get being printed and distributed around the constituency, sort of in the run-up and during to the polls opening. Also, you get sort of election songs being sung,

sort of composed and sung, and then often ballad singers would sing them but also sell the handbills of their ballads. So before, oh, Jeremy Corbyn, oh, Jeremy, it would be, oh, Henry Broome. Yeah, but sometimes they were set to popular songs of the time. Sometimes they were patriotic songs, but they weren't always patriotic messages. So there's one set to the national anthem, but it's instead of God Save the King, it's Bob Shave the King.

But in this case, shave means guillotine, not sort of give him a shave. I love that they use like a clapback mentality on their national anthem. That's great. Although I prefer just shave him. I like the idea of just getting there and just like, right, come on, proper grooming. So we kind of said at the beginning of the show, really, that women weren't allowed to vote. And I'm now going to somewhat backtrack on that a little bit

because I think some were able to vote. And some women did take part in politics, didn't they? Yeah, so technically before 1832, some women technically qualified to vote in constituencies where the franchise was dependent upon homeowner status. So usually they were wealthy single women or widows. Wow. But only a few actually ever voted in sort of person.

Generally, they appointed proxies to vote on their behalf. But then occasionally... A man, presumably. Yeah, yeah, a man. But there are instances of where even women who didn't qualify to vote still kind of gave it a go. So... I love that talk to me.

So during the New York by-election of 1829, one woman disguised herself as a man. So she's dressed up in a man's coat and a hat. Amazing. Went in and gave her name as Mr. Waterman. Okay. But her disguise probably wasn't that great. So she was spotted and her vote was rejected.

But there's still a Mr. Waterman noted in the poll book, which is where all the votes were written, as voting and their vote seems to be counted. So was she pretending to be Mr Waterman? Yeah. Who she knew? Well, I guess she was Mrs Waterman. But I don't know.

Was she punished? No, no. Or not that I know of. They didn't throw a dead cat at her? No, I don't think so. Wow. So it wasn't a made-up name. It wasn't like Mickey Mouse.

She was clearly... No, there was a Mr Waterman. Yeah. I respect the attempt. Yeah. Yeah, fair dues. I mean, voter ID is obviously something that, you know, it's complicated politically speaking,

but, you know, putting on a hat is not a hugely important thing. Yeah, OK, she could have tried harder, fine. But those who didn't have the right to vote still were able to take a really quite inactive role in parliamentary politics and elections. So certain women, usually from quite elite families, often played quite a public role in canvassing. The most famous example would be the Duchess of Devonshire.

So Georgiana. Yeah, canvassing on behalf of Charles James Fox during the Westminster election of 1784. Even further down the social scale, women often took quite an active role during elections. So either attending the hustings or being part of processions and sort of chairing ceremonies when the elected MPs would be sort of paraded around the town on the chair. Of course they would. Yeah, they were often part of those processions and celebrations.

So they were like, the women can organise and get us votes and do the hard work, provided that they are already rich, educated and privileged. And then we'll just take the seats in the House Commons. Oh, that's so lovely. That's really good to hear, you know, yay feminism. Okay, and so I assume that also means that you never really have elected representatives appealing to the interests of women because there's no value in doing so. So a lot of the election handbills and literature that was produced wasn't always tailored to them.

So we didn't address them specifically. But that doesn't mean that they wouldn't have read it. Also, you get examples when at the hustings, the candidates would make speeches and sometimes they would address the women specifically, sometimes saying, you've not been addressed so far during this election and sort of appealing to them that way. So they were definitely involved in elections and campaigns. OK. It's time probably for us to move on to a slightly different element here. We have a lovely Irish comedian in the room,

so, you know, let's do some Irish history. And the crucial thing to say is that Ireland is part of this story as of 1801. In fact, slightly earlier, really, because 1801 is the Act of Union. It's where Ireland joins Britain to become the United Kingdom. Joins. Well, yeah, exactly. Let's talk a little bit about it. So throughout the 18th century, the British had essentially forced repression and land confiscation on the Irish people

and had reduced the rights of Irish Catholics. And this led to a lot of political violence and a revolution and revolt and so on. The most famous one, the Irish Revolt of 1798. I mean, presumably you do it at school. Is that something you know a bit about? Yeah, I mean, it's not that it's sort of everything in Irish history in terms of freedoms is a precursor to 1960. And so you have like a slow bill. So yes, but also, but there were those before that as well. There are several. And then there's one in 1803 as well

called Emmett's Rebellion. Yes. But 1798 is sort of quite an important one because the French get involved as well and they're trying to, Napoleon's trying to help the Irish rebel against the British. Interesting.

But it kind of brings forward a really interesting guy who is a hero in Ireland Daniel O'Connell not to be confused with Daniel O'Donnell I mean the grandmother's favourite exactly everyone loves him

I mean a real fine line between having cats and knickers thrown at you but yeah not to be confused good to know great that would be a really weird sort of job swap

it would be a weird mix yeah absolutely absolutely I don't know how effective Daniel O'Donnell would have been, but man, the ladies would have loved him, provided that the ladies were octogenarians. Yes.

For listeners at home who don't know who Daniel O'Donnell is, he's a very smooth crooner. Is he? Or is he just? Okay, yeah. You know what? Don't cast aspersions on Daniel O'Donnell because that's how you get excommunicated.

Daniel O'Donnell was a political activist on the excommunicated. Daniel O'Connell was a political activist on the part of Irish Catholics. And a proud Dubliner and there's a statue of him I believe in Dublin I think. Yes, he's from Kerry though isn't he? I believe that he's

well represented in Dublin. The other thing about Daniel O'Connell that's pretty famous is that he won a duel and killed a man and then felt real bad about it. Well, yeah.

How did he think that was going to go any other way? Famously he was sort of a pacifist. He really didn't believe in violence. He didn't take part in the Emmet Rebellion. He didn't take part in any of those things, but he ended up in this duel and he sort of shot the guy and then... You'd feel horrendous.

The guy died and he was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. That's horrendous. Anyway, that's by the by. He is known in Ireland as, do you know his nickname? He's the Emancipator, but he's also... Yes, or the Liberator. The Liberator, yeah. Okay, great. So 1798, Daniel O'Connell, not Donald, is neither crooning nor receiving knickers. He is not party to, but aware of the rebellion.

Yeah, so the rebellion largely failed, largely of the arrest of many of the ringleaders. The 1801 Act of Union was then designed to sort of neutralise the problem. So the plan was for the Act of Union between Ireland and Britain. Eventually, in February 1800, the Irish Act of Union passed by 158 votes to 115. And then it came into effect on the 1st of January 1801. So the result of that was that the Irish Parliament was abolished.

And instead, Ireland was given 100 MPs at Westminster. But Catholics weren't allowed to stand. They could stand but they weren't allowed to go and take their seat in Westminster. Right. So Catholics were just essentially removed from the political process but Daniel O'Connell is this great orator who steps up and goes come on this is ridiculous. You know you've taken our Parliament off of us and we still haven't got any rights. Okay. Catholics weren't allowed to vote, they weren't allowed to have certain government jobs. And this was brought down in 1829, isn't it?

Yeah. The so-called Catholic question had been discussed since the late 18th century. And there'd been plans to include emancipation as part of the Act of Union, although this was opposed by George III, who opposed it on the belief that it undermined the Protestant constitution. The issue of Catholic emancipation became a major discussion point, and some elections across the country came to be dominated by the question of Catholic emancipation,

along with the idea of parliamentary reform. But despite this, in some areas, anti-Catholic feelings still remained really quite high. So you get petitions being sent to the Commons, both in favour and against emancipation. So in 1828, the Test and Corporations Act, which had barred dissenters, Protestant dissenters, from holding civil and political office, they were abolished, which to some degree paved the way for Catholic emancipation a year later in 1829. And so it's in 1829 that they are allowed back in and given equal rights thanks to Daniel O'Connell.

Okay, wow. Hence the liberator. Yeah, makes sense. And the knickers being thrown at him. Yeah, no, absolutely. Get that man an album. Let's have him work Christmas number one. Introducing.

Amazing. But presumably come 1829 you still had all the same disabling factors for people not being able to vote. Well, that brings us very neatly, thank you, Catherine, to the 1832 Great Reform Act. Oh, great. So this is the sort of biggie. 1829, as you say, is a really powerful, really important moment.

But it has a knock-on effect as well. And that knock-on effect is the sort of push for more reform. And 1832 hannah is it's a really uh closely fought battle isn't it yeah so the idea of parliamentary reform and sort of the need for reform had been discussed from the middle of the 18th century if not before and there'd been numerous attempts to introduce the bill into the commons since then but they were rejected each time by the lords the house of Lords. Sort of a hugely complicated, sort of to-ing and fro-ing story to try and get the reform bill to be passed.

So then in April 1831, Parliament's dissolved. Did somebody die? No, not this time. So the government was defeated on a particular point of the bill. Okay. So then at the subsequent election, this returns a largely pro-reform majority in the Commons. So in July of 1831, there's another bill

which passes through the Commons by a large majority again, but it's rejected in the House of Lords. Not again. So it's rejected in October, and then this sparks riots across the country. And who's the... King. William IV.

Yeah. Okay. Is William a modern... Is he like a reformist? Well, so he's largely against the reform bill. Okay. But sort of in public, he comes out for it. Largely because he sort of sees that he's run out of options.

There's no... If he opposes it, if the bill's rejected rejected it's just going to descend into chaos okay so he knows he needs to be popular he knows that the bill needs to be passed so he goes through various acts and sort of creates new peers in the house of lords who are pro-reform to push the bill through cool in may 1832 yeah he creates the new peers and then the reform bill passes in June 1832 by 196 votes to 22 and then receives royal assent and becomes part of law and then does separate bills for Scotland and Ireland. And so what are the reforms? Yes good question. So it creates 22 new boroughs so you get places towns such as Manchester and Birmingham now have the right to vote, whereas before they didn't.

Not what I thought you were going to say, but okay, cool. It also introduces a universal franchise across the country, so it no longer gets rid of all the different types of constituencies. Okay, so everyone can vote over the age of 21? So the borough franchise is 10 pounds. The pot wallopers have gone, no more pot walloping. Okay, but you do have to be able to pay 10 pounds. You do have to be able to pay 10 pounds.

That's a shitload of money, I'm guessing. Yeah, so this is one of the reasons why many of the working classes who had really pinned their hopes on being able to be enfranchised as part of this, they largely felt quite let down by the terms of the bill. That makes sense. And the ladies. So they still can't vote. Yep.

And the Act also failed to introduce a secret ballot. So voting was still done in public. So all that, and it's like, P.S., we're still going to be able to whack you over the head if you vote for the wrong person. Joke's on you! But it is a reform of sorts. And, in fairness, the sheep of old Sarum can no longer vote. So the secret vote comes in 1872. So there's still like 40 years before.

So there's still loads of reforms still to come but it's a really important milestone in british constitutional law and history uh and ireland too i suppose the nuance window all right we've got to the point of the show that i love the most which is called the nuance window and this is where katherine and i shut up and we allow our expert your favorite part of the show is where katherine shuts up favorite bit of the show i have a little nap and then no it's where we get to listen to our expert uh freewheeling and talking for two minutes on something they particularly specialize in and hannah you have researched the history of election specifically but you're really like good on like election sort of pamphlets and bump and that kind of stuff yeah although that wasn't necessarily what I was going to focus on so I was going to

focus a little bit on the types of canvases that were produced over the course of canvassing and the way in which that allowed those who were not eligible to vote still were able to sort of get involved in elections and take part and have access to political opinions. Okay, so from elections of the 18th and early 19th century, they're in some ways quite similar to our own 21st century elections. There were discussions as to the extent to which once elected, MPs would carry out the will of the people who'd voted them into power as opposed to the good of the party. Similarly, elections were fought and won on the basis of local,

national and also international issues. But on the other hand, elections were also really different to our own, especially in terms of who could and couldn't vote, as we've already seen. But that's not to say that those who couldn't vote had no way of expressing their opinions. There was a huge variety of election literature, including songs and ballads, which would have been sung on the streets. So even the illiterate, in some ways, would still have been able to have access to the politics and the personalities of those involved and those standing for election. So before voting began, voters often took part in an informal show of hands that often had the power to sway the basis of an election. So often a candidate would sort of retire if they could see that they were really unpopular.

Finally, the thing I want to really emphasise is the fact that we often focus on the idea that elections during the 18th and 19th centuries were really corrupt and voters were easily swayed in the choice of a candidate based on sort of how good a bribe they received. But this wasn't necessarily the case. So although we've mentioned that there were obvious cases such as corrupt boroughs such as Old Sarum, but in the majority of cases voters had quite a good deal of independence in terms of their choice of a candidate. And even when voters were expected to vote in a particular way, usually it was only one of their two votes that they were expected to give. Wow. Two minutes on the clock. And that's also really surprising because, you know, we've talked about corruption, but actually you're arguing that there's an element here

that politics works at the time. Sort of. It works to a certain extent. The bribery and corruption, generally the MPs and their patrons didn't have enough money to, particularly in large constituencies, bribe the whole electorate. So it was only really in the tiny boroughs. So we're talking about anomalies rather than the rule. Yeah. That's a relief. So what do you know now? We've reached the part of the show which is called the So What Do You Know Now?

This is where our comedian guest Catherine is tested on what she has learned today in our exciting podcast. And I mean, in fairness, this has been fascinating, but quite technical and quite tricky at times because we're talking about law and constitution and stuff like that. Some of these questions, you know, you may not ace, but I have great faith in you, Catherine. I have no faith. You got nine out of ten last time and you have a history degree. But I talked so much.

Why did I talk so much? Why didn't I just listen? It's fine. It's not a problem at all. I'm going to be a generous marker. Okay. So you've got a minute on the clock. A minute on the clock.

Ten questions. Here we go. Okay. When was the secret ballot introduced? 79. 1870. 1872. Two, it is.

Yes, one point. Okay, until 1911, the lifespan of a parliament was how many years? Seven years. Exactly, unless what happened? The king died. Yes. Or the queen. What was a pot walloper?

A borough where the way you voted was if you owned a hearth in your house. Absolutely. How long were the polls open for, generally? Approximately a week. You are nailing this. Four out of four so far. Which dead animal was often thrown at candidates during Hustling Cats? Who was the first de facto Prime Minister?

Walpole. Yes, Robert Walpole. Until the Great Reform Act, approximately how many parliamentary seats were uncontested? We haven't said this, so just have a guess. Ah, no, lads. What? Just random guess? I don't know.

Like, 30. 70% of seats were uncontested. Oh, I didn't know. Like, 30. 70% of seats were uncontested. Oh, I didn't know we were talking percentages. My apologies. I wasn't close either way. What were the two main political parties in the 18th? The Whigs and the Conservatives. Yes.

When was the Great Reform Act? 1829. 32. 32? Damn it. 29 was the Catholic one. Sorry, I only talked about my own reform that I care about. Go on. And which famous Irish political leader is known as the Liberator?

O'Connell. Daniel. 8 out of 10 is a very strong score. It's a strong score. No, it means I'm getting worse as we go on. Not at all. I contest that it's 8 out of 9, for I was never told the initial information. The uncontested elections.

That was like a sneaky one. What kind of curriculum is nothing? You know what, actually, I'm going to give you that. Eight out of nine. When in doubt, contest the test. Plus, you did also answer the question about the king dying, which was a secondary question. I'll take it. So nine out of ten.

Let's say that. We'll draw an even. Well done. Very impressive. I hope you've enjoyed doing that. I think we've run out of time, but I've learned some stuff. Have you learned some stuff? Loads. I've had a great time. Thanks for having me.

Okay, well, that's pretty much it for today. Thank you so much to both of you. It's been a hoot. We've learned some really fascinating stuff. We have, in some ways, confirmed what we thought we knew about the 18th century, but also learned some sort of

slightly nuanced stuff. Big thank you to my guests in History Corner, Dr. Hannah Nicholson from the University of Nottingham, and in Comedy Corner, Catherine Bowhart. Thanks to you at home for listening and for lending us your vote. Please do share the podcast with your friends and leave reviews online.

Do all those things you're meant to do with podcasts. Subscribe, what not. But for now, I think we're off to go and round up some dead cats and hurl them at people we think aren't worthy of our vote. I actually have a collection I've been dying to use. Well, I figured we would. With that, farewell. You're Dead to Me was a Muddy Knees media production

for BBC Radio 4. The researcher was Maurice Casey, the scriptwriter was Emma Neguse, and the producer was Cornelius Mendes. Hello, Stephen Fry here. As you are clearly a curious and discerning sort, I thought you might like to hear about another podcast which I wholeheartedly recommend. sister in surname Hannah Fry, along with Adam Rutherford, not Greg, Margaret or even Ernest, who endeavour to investigate your everyday questions. Everything from why do we get déjà vu to what is the shape of the universe to why do we get déjà vu. In the new series,

I join the Curios with a question that I posed to our intrepid scientific sleuths. It's about prosopagnosia, otherwise known as face blindness, and why some of us find it extremely tricky to put names to faces. All my life I've been mildly plagued, can you be mildly plagued, by the fact that I have a quite appalling inability to remember faces. So what is going on inside my brain? And is there anything that might help? Join us to find the answer to this question and many more

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