You're Dead to Me - The Iliad and Odyssey: heroic epics from ancient Greece

Episode Date: July 24, 2026

Greg Jenner is joined in ancient Greece by historian Dr Emily Hauser and comedian and actor Kiell Smith-Bynoe to learn about the epic poems the Iliad and Odyssey. Traditionally attributed to the poet Homer, these works tell parts of a legend that has fascinated us for centuries: the story of the Trojan War. Featuring a cast of unforgettable characters – Achilles, Odysseus, Paris, Helen, Hector and Agamemnon – the war between ancient Greece and Troy has inspired writers, artists and filmmakers for over a millennium. But the Iliad and Odyssey only recount episodes of this much bigger story. The Iliad, focusing on the hero Achilles, takes place in the closing stretches of the war. And the Odyssey tells the tale of Odysseus’s perilous voyage home after the Greeks have triumphed. In this episode, we trace the origins of the poems in the 8th century BCE, looking at whether Homer really wrote them and how these originally oral tales came to be written down, before exploring the fantastical tales they tell. Along the way, we also look at whether or not the Trojan war really happened, how the ancient Greeks defined heroism, and examine the role of gods and monsters in the poems and the lives of their heroes.If you’re a fan of fantastical myths and legends, heroes behaving badly, and ancient Greek culture, you’ll love our episode on the Iliad and Odyssey.If you want more from Kiell Smith-Bynoe, listen to our episode on Viking explorer Leif Erikson. And for more historical epics, check out our episodes on the Legends of King Arthur, and the Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh.You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past.Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Auréliane Perrin Written by: Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Dr Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Gill Huggett Senior Producer: Dr Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

Hello and welcome to Yon Dermy, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name's Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we're sharpening our swords, stashing our spears, and sailing the wine, dark sea. Back to ancient Greece to learn all about the epic poems known as the Iliad and Odyssey. And to help us on this valiant voyage, we are joined by two heroic companions in History Corner. She's senior lecturer in classics and ancient history at the University of Exeter, An expert on Women in Antiquity, Homer and the Modern Reception of Classical Texts. You might have read her incredible new book, Mythica,

a new history of Homer's world through the women written out of it. It's Dr Emily Hauser. Welcome, Emily. Thank you for having me. Pleasure to have you him. And in Comedy Corner, he's a multi-talented actor, comedian and broadcaster. You'll recognise him from hosting TVs, The Great British Sewing Bee, or starring in the award-winning sitcoms, ghosts, Stathlet's Flats,

and Man Like Mobin. Or maybe you've delighted in watching him succeed and fail on Taskmaster, Maybe you've seen his live tour show. Cool story, bro. But you'll definitely remember him from our episode on the Viking Explorer Leif Erikson. It's the very cool. Kyle Smith Bino, welcome back.

Thank you very much for having me again. I didn't think I was allowed back. Oh, of course you're allowed back. Turns out you can do anything. You can say anything and get invited back. All right. You were great last time. You had a lot of fun.

We rummaged in the Viking Age. We did exploration a thousand years ago. Yeah, that's right. Today we are taking you even further back. What do you know about ancient Greece? The Iliad, the Odyssey. Any bells? I'm going to say

Medusa. Is that anywhere near? A little bit, a little bit off. We'll get you back on track. Thank you. Right culture. Yeah, right culture. Right language.

Great. Yeah, these are epic poems. So, what do you know? So this is the So What Do You Know? This is why I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener or viewer, hello, what you might know about today's subject. The ancient Greek geeks among. you will certainly have read The Iliad and Odyssey, maybe as retold by the Marvelous Stephen Fry,

or perhaps in wonderful translation by Emily Wilson. That's my favourite translation. And even if you haven't read the classic classics, the story of the Trojan War is still everywhere in our pop culture. There are films, of course. There's 2004's Troy starring Hanson Brad Pitt, and of course now the Christopher Nolan film, The Odyssey. No comment on the helmets. I'm not getting involved. Plus, of course, you've got the Percy Jackson series. There's Madeline Miller's Song of Achilles, Margaret Atwood's feminist retelling of the Penelopeiad, I think, which is the pronunciation, am I right? Yeah, Penelopead, yeah. Good, I think you.

And there's even an anime series inspired by The Odyssey. So the plots are familiar to us, even when we don't realise it. But when were these stories first written? And by whom? And is written the right verb? And what do they reveal about Greek culture? And how many people are you allowed to slaughter and still be considered a hero? Let's find out. Right, Dr. Emily, for those who've never heard the words, the Iliad or Odyssey,

which maybe incorporates Kael, I'm not sure. Simply put, what are they? Right, well, what we're looking at are epic poems that are coming from ancient Greece, and they're part of a cycle of poems, which we know as the epic cycle, that are basically telling the story of the legend of the Trojan War. So this is a legend that is kind of springing up

around a city called Troy in modern sort of northwest Turkey, a massive war happening there, about 10-year war, a siege basically that the Greeks enact because Paris the Prince of Troy abducted, or let's put it in quotation marks, abducted Helen of Sparta, already problematically married to Menelaus. The Greeks get a bit peeved by that and they come and try and get her back. And this initiates a huge cycle of poems. Now, of those, we've got two that remain.

That's the Iliad and the Odyssey. The Iliad telling a story of a couple of short weeks in the final year of the war and the Odyssey telling the Odyssey telling the story. story of one man's voyage back home. Do you know how long these poems are? Do you know how long, for example, the Iliad is? I'm guessing, I mean, how do we even measure length? Let's go in lines, in lines.

Lines. Lines. How many lines, you know? I want to say, I'm getting the feeling of 600. That's a fairly long poem. Emily, it's a bit longer than that, isn't it? It's just a bit longer, I'm afraid. The Iliad is about 15,700 lines?

Yeah. I say that's too many. There's a reason you haven't read it. Yeah. And the Odyssey is about 12. 100 lines. Oh, that's better. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, you are a storyteller, because cool story, bro, you get stories, you know, from the audience, right? Yeah. I mean, we've got to start with the beginning, middle and end. Okay. That's a golden rule. Sure. And then for me personally, I want some jeopardy.

Okay. Yeah. Maybe some danger, a revelation. I need some characters. I need detail. This is good. That's what I like. Okay.

Yeah. And what is epic poetry? It's not going to be our definition of epic, but I like it very much. And in fact, that beginning, middle and end, I don't know if you know that, but Aristotle, the theorist of narrative was the one who said that's what all good narrative has to have. So you're in the footsteps of Aristotle. But no, so for epic, it's, I think you can think about the way that we use epic nowadays. When we say something's epic, we mean it's kind of massive, it's huge, it's bigger than life.

And that's what an epic poem is. So we talked about how long they are, you know, thousands of lines. So Epic is kind of defined by its length, and later ancient poets actually talk about Homer. And they say, like, Homer is like the sea, and we are just like little rivers that are running from it. So Epic is really big. It's also telling about big themes.

So it's telling about heroes and gods and monsters and sort of voyages that are sort of bigger than anything that you've experienced before. And then the last thing, which is something that I think we wouldn't normally kind of put under Epic in modern terms, is the metre. Now that's hexameter. And that's basically the rhythm that you're using in the poem.

So basically, because these were oral poems initially, which is why I loved hearing you talk about your storytelling, these were done aloud. And so you'd have a rhythm that would kind of like bring everything together. And that's this hexametrical rhythm, which basically breaks the line into six feet. Right. So like iambic pentameter?

That's exactly right. That's another metre. So iambic pentameter is quite natural to English. that will be Dundadum Dundah Dumb Dund Dund Dachem It's something you hear

a lot in Shakespeare Hexameter is the meter of epic You named the author Homer People at home might be going Yes, I've heard of Homer

Have you heard of Homer? Yeah Not the Simpsons character Yeah, I don't know I can't remember why Okay But I have heard of Homer's

somethings Maybe the Iliad an Odyssey Yeah maybe Yeah I think so Are we happy saying Homer wrote the Odyssey Because I mean

Within there there are several questions. A, Homer, real guy. B, wrote. Is that the right verb? First of all, wrote, probably the wrong one. Be freestar. So, well, basically, yes. So this is where they started. So these poems started in an oral song culture

where people would be, or you'd have bards who would be really specialising in this kind of topic. And they would be reciting what we call composing and performance. So they would be up there a little bit like you described kind of on the stage in the festival, whatever it was,

and they would be putting these building blocks together. Now, eventually over the centuries, those stories get handed down, and at some point they start becoming kind of performed and they become fixed a little bit more for performance, because at that point they're being recited. We then get a moment where in about the mid-sixth century BCE, we've got a tyrant in Athens called Pysistratus,

who's really interested in kind of scripting and fixing these texts, and at that point, that's where they really start to become, like fixed written texts. So it's like a gradual process of them being written down and fixed into what we now know is the Iliad and Odyssey today. So maybe 200 years between the composition and the actual writing? I'd say even more. Oh really? So the roots of the oral epic go back to the 14th century BCE or earlier. And the writing is probably around the 8th to the 6th centuries BCE that that happened. So we've got hundreds of years of tradition and then hundreds of years of writing. That's amazing. Yeah. Okay. Did Hope

Homer exists? Question mark? The ancient Greeks definitely believe that Homer existed. I don't know if we want to take their word for it because they also believe that the gods and goddesses existed and that Zeus swallowed his wife. So, you know, maybe we're not going to take them too literally. But with Homer, they thought that there was this kind of one poet who wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey. For us today, I think we're thinking more of this as a tradition of multiple different itinerant bards who were really experts in their area. So when I like to think about it, I like to think about instead of saying

the poet or he, I like to think of it as a collective tradition and say, they, the poets. You know, this is a communal tradition. So Homer's meant to be blind, right? He's meant to be the blind poet Homer and he's meant to be the Greeks believed he's the sole creator

of these two poems. Yeah. Wait, so what's he writing about then? It's not stuff he's seen. Well, this is kind of the point because if you're blind, then you're kind of attuned to the power of a story.

and also to the influence of the muses, who were the goddesses of song, who were inspiring the bard. So this idea of kind of him being blind is very much him turning in and listening to the power of the word. Wow. Yeah. And I mean, the opening line is Sing to Me Oh Muses, right? It's a song. Yeah. Well, in both of the epics, they start like that way. So we've got Sing to Me Muse in the Iliad and then in the Odyssey we've got Tell Me Muse. So both of them very oral, spoken. And that's gesturing to the fact that they were originally sung, accompanied by a liar, and you've got this muse who is the goddess of song, or one of nine goddesses of song,

and is imagined to kind of inhabit the bard and relay to him all of the knowledge that he doesn't have. It's funny that it's sing initially and then they're like, actually just tell me. Maybe this person doesn't have a great voice. Let's downgrade him. Yeah, 15,000 lines are somewhere like, And then we went over here. Yeah, great. Kyle, do you know what the ancient Greek word for a poet was?

Yes, imagine. Amazing if you just break out some classical Greek now. Ancient Greek word for a poet. Yeah, for a travelling poet. For a person sort of on the road, stops in, tells a story, gets a free meal. You get a free meal for telling a story? Yeah. Yeah, are you not getting paid for your shows?

Hang on a minute. I really hope you've got a meal for him now, Greg, after this. There's sandwiches outside if you want them. Is what they get dependent on how good the story is? I think that might be fair. It is absolutely true. Yeah, yeah. So you've got an incentive to make sure that your songs are really sharp.

Yeah. I've been making stuff out, though. That's fine. That's the point. That's what they want. They want a good story. You just say the muses told you. Wow.

Yeah. So the Greek word, I mean Rhapsode. Rhapsode. Yeah, so well, we got several different words, but Rhapsode is the word that is happening about the time where we've got these people who are performing kind of scripts of the versions of the text. Rhapsodos in ancient Greek. And that means song stitcher, which is really fun.

So what they're doing is they're basically sewing together different kind of parts of versions of the song. So you've got sort of like maybe, you know, this part, which is about the anger of Achilles, and then you've got this little episode that's about like a spy mission, and we're going to stitch those together and we're going to make those into a longer song. Oh, nice. So it's not Bohemian Rhapsody, it's Athenian Rhapsody. It's a fab, okay. I mean, Alexander the Great had a copy of the Iliad, didn't he? That was his favorite book. He did. So this was given to him by his tutor Aristotle, the guy who we were talking about earlier, you know, and he, yeah, he kept the copy of the Iliad under his pillow.

Oh, sweet. Yeah, very, very inspired by Homer. That's cool. That's cute, isn't it? So the Iliad the Odyssey, as we know them, are recited first, composed perhaps collectively. Perhaps it's a sort of tradition of composition. Perhaps there is one great blind genius Homer. Maybe not, we don't know.

But they also tell of events that happened way before ancient Greece as we know it. That's right. The Bronze Age, the world of Macyni and of the great heroes. Yeah, that's right. So what we're looking at here is we're not going to be thinking about kind of epic as history, as kind of a straightforward document of what happened in the past. But what they do do because of that process

of handing down over generations is that they are kind of encoding memory in some way. So this process of songmaking is really the idea of kind of passing down a memory. And one part of those memories that they're passing down is of this Trojan War. Now, the events of the Trojan War probably took place if they kind of really happened

around the late 13th, early 12th century BCE. So we're looking about 1,200. BC, late Bronze Age, as you mentioned. And there have been attempts to kind of prove that this was true and real. My favourite example of this is the discovery of the real city of Troy. There is a real city, that is amazing. The guy who found it, Heinrich Schliemann, was absolutely obsessed with Homer, made up this kind of story later in life that he'd wanted to do this since he was a child. Absolutely wasn't true. But anyway, he got to Troy and he was in such a hurry to get to the area that he thought was the layer of Homer's Troy, that instead of waiting

and digging down through the layers, as you would if you were an archaeologist, he just used dynamite. Yeah, sometimes it's quicker though, isn't it? Sometimes you've just got to get to it. Do you know what? That would be fine if he'd got the right layer, but he miscalculated by a thousand years, and so he blew through all of the layer that he wanted and ended up about a thousand years too far in the past.

When was this? So this is the late 19th century. So, you know, we're at the right at the beginning of archaeology. This guy's really not an archaeologist. He's a German businessman. He's a German businessman with a plan. He's been using it in his meetings.

Well, it works in the meetings. It must work here. I mean, can imagine that episode of Time Team, just Tony Robinson just dynamiting things. I found a Roman, oh, it's on fire, sorry. It's just amazing. So Troy is a real city. It's not called Troy,

because we call it the Iliad. So it's called Ilion, Iliam, Iliar. Whatever endings you like. Well, actually, yeah, Homer gives it a couple of different names. We've got Troia, which is where we get our Troy from. But we've also got Ilios and Ileon. And that's where we got the Iliad from. What's really interesting about, though,

is that we have documents from around that time that talk about a city in that area called Willusa. And we think that that word Ilios would initially have been pronounced Willios. And so probably that Willusa is actually our Troy. So it should be the Williad?

It should be the Williad. Yeah, it doesn't have quite the same reason. That sounds rude. Sorry. The reason that's interesting to me is because my middle name is Troy. Really? Wow.

But I would hate if my middle name was Williad. I'd be really annoyed if it was. We didn't even know you in them. I mean, that's perfect booking for us. Yeah? We've got an actual Trojan here. Yeah. My dad wanted to call me Troy Smith.

and my mum was like, don't be stupid. That's amazing. Just because she was like, that's too boring. Yeah, well, you should shout out all the Troy Smiths. Yeah, she'd cat yourself lucky. It wasn't Willios. And of course, in The Simpsons, there is Troy McClure and Homer. So we've got Troy and Homer in the Simpsons, which is a nice little in jokes.

There are several layers of Troy, which may have been the classic hymoric one, but earthquakes destroyed it, fires destroyed it, war, and then a German came along and dynamited it. So we're not quite sure which layers. He left some bits behind. So, you know, when we're looking at those layers, there's enough we can do to work out that there was a city there that was destroyed around 1190, 1180 BC.

But he did find treasure. He did. He did find proper golden, lovely shiny treasure. See, he's got something. He's onto something. He's just got to start blowing stuff up, man. I mean, the line between pirate and archaeologist is looking quite fragile here. For the listeners and viewers, please do not go around blowing up treasure. It's just not.

Archaeologists would be very sad if he did that. A little bit. Yeah, he got his wife to model the treasure. It was called a King Priam's treasure. Well, he called it King Priam's treasure. So he just found this treasure in this layer that he was convinced was Homer's Troy, even though he was a thousand years too far in the past, found this kind of beautiful cache of golden jewels and things, smuggled it out of Troy,

illegally took it off to Athens, dressed up his wife in it, called it the jewels of Helen of Troy, and basically sent it out to all of the newspapers in the world. At this point, facts really are just kind of peripheral to the overall project. And then what? Where does it go? Oh, it's got a really interesting, story. So basically it goes on tour, it's exhibited.

It goes on tour. Yeah, it does. I know. It's exhibited in the UK. I wonder if it got more audience in Ferrum than I did. Well, I don't know about that. But then it comes back and it's in Berlin and he puts it up in an exhibition where he says he wants it to be exhibited for all time. This is his kind of attempt to memorialize his name. And then after the war, it ends up getting appropriated, should we say, by Soviet troops and disappears off to Russia. We don't know where it is? Well, we do because some Russian journalists worked incredibly hard to find it and they found it only a couple of decades ago. Wow.

Oh. So where's it now? So now it's now in a museum in Russia. Oh. So is Troy are only evidence for an actual real Trojan war? You know, the city of Troy, Ilion, Ilios, Wilios, whatever we're calling it. Do we have any other historical or archaeological evidence that this Bronze Age war did occur? Well, I mentioned the sources that tell us about this town, this city called Wilusa.

So those are coming from sources that are from the Hittite civilization. I don't know if you've heard of them, but they're a... There are this amazing late Bronze Age civilization in Anatolia, and they have extensive archival records, and they talk about multiple different wars that happen around this city. In fact, in one of them, you've got a power who's getting involved that are called the Ahyawans in the record, and now we think that it may be that those are the same

as the people who Homer called Akeans, that's his word for the Greeks. So is it possible that the Akeans, or in Greek Achaoy, are the same as the Ahiyahuan? I think it's probable at least. Seems plausible, isn't there? I'm going to say yes. It's official. Yeah, it's got the stamp.

But, you know, this idea of this city that's been engaged in war multiple different times in the late Bronze Age that has had involvement from powers of kind of the Ahioans somewhere in the Aegean, could that be the pattern for the Greeks coming to a city like Troy? That's the idea. And setting it on fire.

And setting it on fire when they leave. Let's turn to the poems themselves. We'll start with the Iliad, which effectively is Troy Story. That's what we should call it. Kyle, so what do you know about Achilles? Have you ever heard of Achilles? Have you seen the Brad Pitt movie? I think I have seen the movie.

And what I remember is Jim Howick talking about it on set of ghosts and saying that everyone in that film is wearing their own boxes. That's niche knowledge. Because when you think about it, when you watch these films and you get lost and you're like, oh my gosh, it's amazing. and the amount of people, and this must have been so fun to, so epic to film. And you think, like, they're all in their own pants.

I'm never going to watch it the same way again, Kyle. Whose pants do you want them to be in? Well, no, they're like, they're not in, like, costume, perhaps. They've got their own, they've probably got their own, like, the pants they came in with. They're just wearing their tidy-whites. Yeah. So, think about that. That's my answer to that.

Yeah, Achilles makes me think of the heel Yeah And something to do with trainers Okay Is that something? Is that like an animation where there's like Someone makes Achilles trainers?

Oh, interesting, I don't know that one. I feel like it's in Hercules, the Disney version. I was going to say you're thinking of the sandals, I think, that they make in Hercules, the kind of... I think I am thinking of that, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the heel, okay, we have to address the heel. We do. The Achilles heel, the most famous.

thing about him. Yeah. It's not in the Iliad. It's not in the Odyssey. What? No. That's not in those 15,000 lives. How come the heel comes later?

Who adds the heel? Yeah, well, it's a much later tradition, actually, the heel. So the story of the heel is that his mother, Thetis, who's a goddess, is desperate to make him immortal. And so she takes him to the river sticks and she dips him in the sticks. But because she's holding him by the heel, the heel doesn't kind of get dipped in this immortal water. And that's why he's invulnerable there.

In the Iliad, that's absolutely not the case. It's made quite clear that he can bleed and, like, you know, die like any other man. The Iliad is only telling sort of a small portion of his story that's really organised around one particular, like, episode of his rage. It doesn't tell the story of how he gets killed. And that's something that comes in a lot later and actually becomes really popular as a visual motif later in Christian art because, of course, the idea of baptism and baptism was under water

and the idea of Achilles being dipped in the water. That's interesting. the plot of the Iliad is it's not easy to summarise. Is there a simple way of summarising it, Emily? Is there a sort of too long didn't read one minute take? Yeah, absolutely. So essentially with the Trojan War, we start with the judgment of Paris,

which is a moment where three goddesses are squabbling over an golden apple that's been inscribed with the words for the most beautiful. They all want it. They decide that a mortal has to judge between them, and so they go down to Paris, the Prince of Troy. He decides Aphrodite's, the winner, not least because she bribes him with Helen, who conveniently already married to Menelaus, king of Sparta.

Paris goes and takes Helen, brings her back to Troy. Menelaus, her husband, is outraged. He goes, yeah, as kind of as you would be, goes to his brother, Agamemnon, who is the king of all of the Greeks, and they band together all of the Greeks. They head off to Troy on this massive expedition, 10 years of fighting around Troy. Ultimately then Odysseus, kind of the trickster,

has the idea of the Trojan horse, the Trojan horse gets dragged into Troy. The Greeks jump out, they burn the city down, and then they go home. But that's not in the Eliad either. I mean, the horse isn't in the Eliad. I mean, all the best bits that we know aren't even in the story.

They're missing some stuff in there. Yeah. Make it longer, that's what I've always said. Okay, where does the Trojan horse come from? That's in the Odyssey, right? Well, it's mentioned in the Odyssey, but the story of the Trojan horse actually comes in one of these lost epics,

the judgment of Paris, like the seizure of Helen, the Trojan horse, the sacking of Troy. Those are all in other epics that we've lost. So all we've got is the Iliad, which really just tells the story of like Achilles' small episode in the war. Doesn't tell how he got in. It doesn't tell about his death. And then we've got the Odyssey,

which tells the story of just one of the Greeks, of many who were coming home after Troy. It is quite Marvel Universe, if there were only two films left in the Marvel Universe, and you had to figure out what had happened by just watching Ant Man. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's not that the Iliad and the Odyssey

were the two most important. poems, it's just they're the only two we have? Well, for the Greeks, they thought that they were the best. So that's why they were attributed to Homer. They thought he was the best poet. So, you know, that's why they preserved them, as opposed to the others who were, you know, just by second class poets, according to Greeks.

The Iliad is sometimes subtitled as the wrath or the rage of Achilles. Right. What's he so angry about, Kyle? Well, I didn't have Wi-Fi then. So, probably that. Right, you just can't get a connection. Yeah. Yeah.

Because I can get a connection yesterday. And I was in Tottenacourt Road. Right. So, imagine, I was angry. I mean, in 2000 years, people will be singing of that Roth. That Roth will be sung. The Kaelia'iad. Yeah.

Don't mind it. I don't mind that at all. But you didn't set fire to a city. No, I left my dynamite at home. But now I remember, I was just reminded to take it with me everywhere I go. Yeah, I'm going to say it's not the Wi-Fi, Emily. It's not. Why is Achilles so angry and wrathful and pouty?

Well, it's anger that is the subject of the Iliad. So the very first word of the epic is anger or wrath. So sing to me goddess of the wrath of Achilles is how it starts. And he is angry because Agamemnon, the king of the Greeks, we're in the 10th year of the war. They've been fighting a lot. And during that process... 10th year of the war?

Pack it in, lads. They're all exhausted. So 10 years have gone by. are exhausted and they in that process have taken a lot of cities that they've raised to the ground they've taken a lot of women captive as slaves and one of those women has to get returned her father has come and has a bit of an issue with his daughter being enslaved and so he comes asks for her back agamemnon has to give her up and so he in response seizes one of achilles enslaved women her name is brusaeus and achilles gets really peeved by this he withdraws from the

war and when he does that he begs you to the king of the gods to make sure that as many of the Greeks die as possible so that they all know how great he is and that they really miss him wow not much of a team player is he egos big ego big ego yeah yeah yeah i mean he's giving sort of strong footballer energy it's very christiana rinaldo it's very it's very like me and only me so yeah so he's enslaved a woman and then the woman has been sort of liberated and he's angry and so he just sort of soaks in his tent and sort of goes i took my slave Yeah, you took my slave, and I don't, I'm not going to fight then. Well, absolutely.

And, you know, she hasn't even been liberated because she's just been turned over to another Greek. So, you know, it's absolutely. But he does. And he has kind of the biggest sulk in history, ends up causing the death of many, many different Greeks. After that, his, what we're going to call him, companion lover, friend, Patrickluss, the epic's not really clear about their relationship, but it's clear that they very, very much care about each other. They're more than roommates, aren't they? They are absolutely, a deep, deep relationship between them.

And he goes out into. the battle because he gets really upset by seeing all of his companions dying. So Achilles lets Patricklis go to war. Of course, Patricklis tragically gets killed by Hector. Wearing his armour, right? Patriclus wears Achilles' armour. Yeah, he's dressed up as Achilles. I mean, you know, this sense of them being kind of two halves of the same person, really, really strong.

He dies in Achilles' armour. That gets taken by Hector, the Prince of Troy who kills Patrickluss. And in that, Achilles' revenge just absolutely gets stoked. So does he think that he's killed Achilles? Yeah, he does initially. Trichshire. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

And then they take the helmet off and they're like, oh, no, it's not Brad Pitt. Yeah. Okay, and so we now get the rage of Achilles, which is where he's like, vengeance mission, he's going to kill Hector. Yeah, that's exactly what happens.

He gets back into battle gear. His mum gets him divine armour. He gets all dressed up, and he absolutely wipes out the battlefield. He fights with the gods. And eventually he ends up killing Hector, the one who killed Patriclus, and he doesn't stop there.

Hector begged him for a burial. And instead, what does he do? He ties him to the back of his chariot and he rolls him in the dirt and drags him around the tomb of Patroclus. That guy's a human, man. Yeah, he's pretty angry.

He's really angry, isn't he? So eventually the gods have to say, Achilles, this is enough. You know, this is too much. Like an intervention, isn't that? Yeah, exactly. Well, his mum comes down. She's, as I mentioned, a goddess,

so she comes down, gives him the message and just says, you know, Achilles, you've got to relax. You've got to just eat and drink, have some sex. And, you know, just basically, take a chill pill and stop doing this. That's what mum's are for. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. And the poem finishes, not with the kind of conquest of Troy, it finishes with a funeral. It does, yeah. It ends with the funeral of Hector. And it's actually a very beautiful scene because Achilles hands over the body

that he has desecrated to the father. What's left of it? What's left of Hector? To Priam, the king of Troy, and there is a funeral. And there is this sort of very moving moment of grief with both men acknowledge each other's pain. It's incredible. Well, we've been focusing on this rage that does consume the epic, but we get to the end. And in fact, the gods have been very careful to preserve Hector's corpse. So actually, you know, he's being kind of kept for his relatives, for his family.

That's nice of them. No, it's really good. And we get to the end of the poem and we get to a moment where, in fact, Achilles suddenly has this kind of nighttime scene with Priam, the King of Troy, who comes steals out of the city, comes to Achilles tent, and he has this incredible scene where he kneels on the ground and he kisses. that hands of Achilles, the man who killed his son. And he says, you know, I am doing this because I would like to have my son's body back to bury. And they engage in this amazing kind of scene of kindness, of friendship. They share bread together. And at that point, then Priam goes home with his son's body. And that's the end of the poem.

That is the end of the poem. Troy doesn't get conquered. The war doesn't end? No. So hang on, it took them 15,000 lines to get to that. Yeah, what we've done in about 10 minutes. I reckon I could have done it. a little bit quicker.

Achilles is a hero, right? In the ancient Greek world, he's a hero. Just to sort of sum up what he's done, Kauaiwa. He abducts a woman, he salts when he loses her, he lets his fellow Greeks die. In fact, he asks his fellow Greeks to die. He gets his boyfriend accidentally killed, then seeks murderous vengeance and desecrates the corpse.

It's not the classic hero story we're familiar with in our Hollywood movies. Yeah, it's pretty extreme. Yeah, he's not John McLean, is it? It's not diehard. No. But I mean, Batman was a bit naughty. He's just being out people for the fun of it.

It's sort of interesting the word hero. It doesn't feel appropriate by our morals. So what is a Greek hero? Is it different? Well, what's interesting is that the word is the same. So the ancient Greek word that Homer uses for hero is heroes. It's where we get hero from. But it means something completely different.

So there's a definition of the hero that I really like, which is basically it is someone who is striving for immortality, and we'll do anything to get that and ultimately, ironically, proves that they can't do it and dies trying. Oh, wow. Wow. Live fast or die trying.

And that's exactly what they're doing. And they're really, they're living so fast that they actually end up bringing ruin to everyone around them. So an ancient Greek hero, if you're looking at the Iliad of the Odyssey, is actually someone who can actually destroy his community in a lot of ways. But they're doing that because that is what they need

to be remembered into the future. What they want, above all, is glory. The word is clios in Greek, and it means people talking about you. So the more extreme things you do, the more people are going to talk about you. Yeah.

Okay, despite his rage issues, Achilles, you know, does show compassion, as we say, and we get this funeral, this reconciliation, which is kind of amazing. That's the Iliad. That is the story of the Iliad. It's the story of Achilles, his rage, and I suppose his sort of brief moment of humanity at the end.

Yeah. End of story. Yeah. And then we're on to the sequel poem, The Odyssey. And this is named after another great hero of the Trojan War. So is this continuing where we left off? Well, it's not, because in the meantime,

they've already had the sack of Troy. We've had the wooden horse being taken in. We've had Troy burning. We've had all of the captives parceled out. We've got everyone on the boats. We've had a bit of a problem with Athena, who gets very angry with the Greeks, and then they all start getting sent home.

So with the Odyssey, we're just seeing that point where Odysseus is now on his way home. So I don't have to have read the first one. Do you know what? The Odyssey actually gives you a bit of a recap. I think you'll be all right. It actually has flashback sense, isn't it? It feels so modern.

Okay, so let's talk about the Odyssey. This is Odysseus. He is one of the kind of great warriors who's gone out in this Greek mission to reclaim Helen of Troy. He's renowned for his intelligence and he's trying to get home to his wife and it just takes forever.

Yeah, 20 years in total. That's how long Penelope had to wait. She must have been so bored. Well, she had a lot of weaving to keep her occupied. So much weaving. Which sounds really exciting. And unweaving, of course.

And unweaving, too. But yeah, 10 years in the war, 10 years coming home. Wow. 10 years coming home? Yeah. Well, and then we've also got his son, Telemachus, who was a baby when he left, and by the time he comes back,

is just about to become a man. So he's also been waiting for his father to come home for that amount of time. That's Tom Holland in the movie. Yeah, exactly. So we get this story of one man's attempt to just get home after his, he's already been out to war for 10 years, and it starts. Where's it coming from?

Western Turkey, so it's not that far. No, it's not that far. To where? Well, to the Ionian Islands, so that's around the other side of Greece. So he needs to go like across the Aegean, kind of around the southern Peloponnese, and then up towards the Ionian island. So it's a, it's a trip, but it's not going to be more than a couple of weeks. Yeah, I was going to say, like, a month at sea maybe, you know, stop off, have a barbecue, but like it's...

But he goes into kind of major fantasy land. And when we start the Odyssey, we basically start with him on the island of a nymph called Calypso, where he has been for seven years. And that's the kind of initiating... What are you doing over there? Point on the island, yeah. Maybe not sure on the island. I think I once went to Gatwick instead of Heathrow.

And then when you realise, you're like, oh my gosh, that's so far away. So I understand maybe like four years. You've experienced your own odyssey. Yeah. By the rest. Come on. Emily, what do we mean by nymph? Well, the Greek word for nymph is. is Nnufr, which means both a sort of minor goddess.

It could also actually mean a bride, which tells you the way that they're thinking about these, the sort of nubile young women who are potentially sort of lingering on islands around the Mediterranean waiting to catch a man off guard and take him off his path. Right. Calypso is a sort of gorgeous, eternal goddess, right?

Yeah, she promises to make him immortal as well. Yeah. And she fancies him, and she's like, look, we'll be lovers. I'm more beautiful than all of the mortal women. women, so just stay here and we'll just have sex and eat fruit. Yeah. And he's like, maybe, for seven years he sort of like doesn't leave.

Prevaricating. Situation ship. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I get it. I've been there, I get it. Yeah, I've got to get home to my wife. Really? This time I will.

This one I will. So he's stuck on Hot Nymph Island. Let's talk about the rest of the plot of the Odyssey, which is incredibly complicated. So tell us some of the plots. I mean, we can't do all of it, but just some standout. Well, what we've got going. on basically are kind of three different levels at the same time. We've got Odysseus starting out on Calypso's Island and he still needs to get home. So he's got the rest of his voyage to do. We've got

the suitors in Ithaca who are basically 108 men. They really want to marry Penelope and they have basically sat themselves down in the palace at Ithaca and just don't want to leave and they are determined to make that happen. We've then also got the teenage son, Telemachus, who goes on his own mini-odicy. And I kind of like this because he basically wants to be like his. dad. So instead of Odysseus doing an odyssey, he's Telemachus. So he does a telemiki. And he goes on a like mini-daddy trip to try and find his father, goes to a couple of Greek palaces and then ultimately comes back. So we've got all of those sort of three things happening at the same time. Odysseus, of course, like when he is on his way back, we also get him stopping off at a place called the

island of the Fiatians. And he gives the story of his adventures of all of the things that happened to him before he got to Calypso's island. So not only are we getting those things happening in forward progression, but we're also getting a flashback to what happened to him at Troy. And he has all sorts of issues. Do you know any of the kind of magical creatures that stop him? I've heard Nymph already. Yep. So, I'm guessing it's not one of those. What are the stuff they got knocking about? Gargoyles. I mean, that's pretty close, actually. It's not bad. Yeah? Yeah. Have you heard of sirens? Yes. Yeah, what do you know with Simon? The ones that sing to the sailors. That's right. And then they get there and they eat,

heads or whatever they do? What they do? No, they don't. They just enjoy racking them on the rocks. You sure they don't eat their heads? Yeah. I'm pretty sure that they don't. I mean, Homer describes them as being like bird women,

so they've got sort of the heads of women, but then they've got the kind of wings and talons of birds. See, now, I've been to London Zoo at feeding time for the vultures, and they are eating heads. Yeah. They got fed. When I was in drama school, we had to do like animal studies. And I chose a vulture.

And then they, this was disgusting. They threw rabbits into the vulturing, not live ones, dead ones. But you watch the vultures eat the rabbits. And they stand on them and then just like, rip their heads off and then get their beak inside the body. Nasty. It's nasty stuff.

Now you're telling me that sirens have got bird bodies, it's making me more inclined to think that they're eating the heads. So it's going to be very difficult for you to change my mind. It's a hot take. It's a hot take. Fair enough. There's also a cyclops. Oh, one eye.

One eye, big old cyclops. Sure. Who's the son of Poseidon, God of the sea. Yeah, yeah. That's kind of a big problem for Odysseus. That's a real issue, right, isn't it? Yeah, well, because one of the reasons this is a problem is... He's a nepo-cyclops. He is, exactly. Well, because he really wants his father to kind of get on his side,

when Odysseus basically is a really, really bad guest and not only eats the Cyclops food without asking him, but he also pierces him in the eye with a steak to blind him. Oh, come on, he's only got one. Yeah, I know. But then he does this great trick as well where, you know, he's Odysseus, so he's very clever. So he tells the Cyclops that his name is nobody. So the Cyclops then calls out to his brothers and he says, guys, guys, nobody's blinded me.

Which, you know. Why are you talking about? Yeah, I know. They're like, right, thanks back to my shepherding or whatever I was doing. Then Odysseus, he has this fatal kind of moment of what the Greeks would have called hubris, which is this kind of excessive pride. And he's managed to escape. He's got out by climbing underneath the sheep that the Cyclops has.

He's clung under them and got out of the cave. They get onto their ship and then he turns back and he says, I want you to know that the person who did this to you was Odysseus. Now, that's really bad because then the Cyclops knows exactly who to pray to his dad, Poseidon, and to ask him to curse him. And that is the reason why Odysseus ends up taking so long to get home. Yeah, of all the gods you don't want to curse you. God of the sea, when you're on a boat.

No, I know, mate. Yeah. He also encounters a witch called Circee. And she turns his men into pigs. Hmm. Inconvenient. But delicious. What I will say, though, is that after she transforms them into pigs, she transforms them back, and when they transform back,

they are younger and better looking than they were before. And I don't want to eat bacon anymore. Yeah. And vegetarian, yeah. Wow. Is this the future of skincare? Well, there you go, exactly. Just, you know, a little bit of kind of pig, and then back to yourself, and then you're 10 years younger. Would you do pig for a bit? How long? Okay.

It's not very long. No, okay. No, it's just enough for Odysseus and her to have a chat and a drink. Yeah, but your version of not very long, based on how long this is. I mean, he does end up staying with her and sleeping with her for a year. He's not very faithful, really. A man trying to get back to his wife. They've got a very different version of one night's house.

Yes, they have. There's also the sun god Helios. He gets in the way. Is that a guy that runs easy yet? No. Different guy who is the god of the sun who has some really nice cows. The best cows. The best cows. Sacred cows.

And he really doesn't want those cows to be killed. And of course, what do Odysseus' men do? They kill them and they eat them. Because they're really hungry. They are really hungry. In their defence, they're really hungry. And you don't eat pork anymore. And they don't want to eat the fish.

They don't want to eat fish. They don't want to eat fish. They don't really like it. They don't fancy it. Because Poseid, they've been messing about them. Yeah, maybe. Basically, Helios gets really annoyed, asks Zeus to kind of have a go.

And so Zeus strikes them with a lightning bolt. And then Odysseus is the only one left. Yeah. Oh. So he's this sort of great captain, he's this great warrior, he's this great hero, but he gets all of his men killed, every single one of them. Yeah. And he only survives because he's so smart, and he's the guy who came up with the Trojan horse.

He's the kind of genius strategist, right? He does get home eventually, and Penelope, his wife... I'd have even forgotten where I lived by then. Yeah. He gets back to Ithaca, and Penelope doesn't recognise him. Yeah, fair enough. Because he goes in disguise? Yeah, well, this is the question.

Does she, doesn't she recognise him? So when he rocks up on Ithaca after 20 years, Athena, the goddess, who is basically his patron goddess, because she is the goddess of coming and wisdom, and that's exactly who he is. She meets him on the shore, and she turns him into an old beggar to disguise him, because obviously what he's got to do is he's got to make sure

he's got all of his allies around him before he tries to get back into the house at Ithaca. He's come after 20 years, nobody knows who he is. But yeah, so he kind of comes up to the palace disguised as a beggar, and they have these really great moments of conversation between Penelope and Odysseus, the beggar, where Penelope says things like, oh, beggar, your hands look so similar

to my husband's hands. Or, you know... Oh, yeah, exactly. You know, there are these moments where it's like near misses or maybe did she, didn't she recognise him. Yeah. He does effectively get rid of the 108 suitors.

Yeah. Penelope, she sort of sets a contest, right, with the bow. So this is another one of these convenient things that happens is that Odysseus, the beggar, happens to be in the palace. And on that day, she decides that actually she's going to give up on Odysseus and she's going to set a contest for her hand in marriage.

To be fair to her, she waited for ages. She did, yeah. It just is very convenient that it happened at the point that he's there. She sets up this contest and says, whoever can string Odysseus's old bow and can shoot an arrow through the axes is going to be able to be her new husband. Of course, all of the suitors try, they fail.

Odysseus steps up and it's in this kind of amazing cinematic moment. He takes the bow, he strings it, he kind of turns back into himself, and then he kind of shoots it and the arrow, and then slaughter follows, and he basically just kills all of the men. He kills 108 men. Yeah, exactly.

He locks the doors, make sure they have no weapons. He's been tired. Yeah, I know. Relax, man. You haven't seen a wife for ages. Just go do some smooching. Yeah. Killing everyone.

These heroes are quite uptight, aren't they? But they stole his stuff. They've been on his land, they've been stealing his stuff, they've been trying to kiss his wife. Let it go. Yeah. Well, he also does something.

worse, which is, well, I don't know if it's worse, but it's equally bad, which is that basically he kind of inculcates his teenage son, Telemachus, into this kind of slaughter. I don't know this word. Oh, incarcates. Basically, he kind of brings him into the world of being a kind of what a hero is, essentially, in that time, he needs to teach him how to do that. And in doing that, he basically says, you've got to take the 12 enslaved women in my house who I think weren't.

You're going to write it down. Oh, amazing. I love that. That's going to be your only note for today. Yeah, start making the notes 50 minutes in. Great. This is clearly the only clever thing I've said today. I forgot there's a test at the end.

So basically he makes him hang 12 of the enslaved women who Odysseus has decided we're not faithful to him. And so Salemachus has to kind of string them up in the courtyard, only I might add, after they have cleaned up the bodies of the suitors. So he's incredibly grim. Yeah, Odysseus is meant to be the hero. And in some ways he's a very different hero to Achilles because he's brains not brawn.

Yeah. And he's meant to be kind of more loyal. He's trying to get home to his wife. It's nostalgia. It's Nostos, right? The pain of home. Yeah. But in some ways, he's equally violent.

Yeah. He gets all his men killed. He cheats on his wife and then accuses others of being unfaithful. He's quite hypocritical. Yeah. Well, and then we also end with this, not only this kind of mass slaughter, but then all of the families of the suitors come in and enraged that he's just come home and kills everyone. 1008 families.

Like, have you seen my son? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sorry. Exactly. And by the way, I'm Odysseus and I'm welcome home. Sure. Yeah. So, you know, we have this really kind of problematic ending.

But yeah, so he is in many ways like Achilles. I said, you know, a hero, we could see a hero as a destroyer of communities. And yeah, he's lost all of his companions that he took to Troy. He's now come back and he's killed everybody. On the other hand, compared to someone like Achilles, he is, as you said, much more kind of shrewd, much more cunning, much more clever. And that's what he's known for. He has loads of epithets, which are basically adjectives through the epic that describe him. as like really cunning, polymetas,

is one of them, really cunning, really clever. Of course he's got Penelope, who is equally clever, equally cunning, and she kind of matches him in his wits. So there is a different dynamic going on there. Yeah, because she spent this whole time weaving to slow down the suitors from marrying her, and then every night she unwaved everything that she weaved that day. So for 20 years they've been sitting there going,

are you done weaving yet? And she's like, no, I'm sorry, it's just taking really long. I'll do it. Give it to me, I'll do it. I don't even know how to weave, but often as she's equally smart. And the telemikis also is very clever. and the kind of parallels between Achilles and Odysseus. I mean, they meet these two former friends. They meet again.

You want to do something fun. You want sort of like bowling, maybe flight club. You want an activity-based thing. Okay, so at the darts. Yeah, something like that. Well, I don't know how the darts feels to you, but they meet in the underworld. Does that feel dartsy?

It doesn't feel as interactive. Okay. Yeah. No, they meet in the underworld. And Achilles says, I made the wrong choice. Yeah, it's an amazing moment of kind of flashback and interacting with the Iliad. So we talked about Achilles and Iliad who is sort of, you know, he ends up all out for this choice of he's going to burn out and just, you know,

kill everyone around him because he wants people to remember him. Well, in the Odyssey, Odysseus gets to talk to the spirits of the underworld. And Achilles comes up and Odysseus says, oh, look, you know, you're king of all of the shades, you know, well done you. And Achilles says, I would rather be. the lowest labourer on the planet than the king of all of the dead. He regrets it.

Well said. But it's an amazing thing of like, okay, well, if Odysseus gets that message from Achilles, then he has sort of more knowledge than someone like Achilles did because he knows actually what is the right choices to get back home. So it then becomes even more urgent that he does need to get back home and try and have that long life version. This guy's going everywhere.

Yeah. We should talk about the women in these stories. You know, your wonderful book, Mythica is about women written out of the story. And we've mentioned somewhere with Penelope, of course, the goddesses, how does this story work in terms of gender politics? Well, obviously we've talked a lot about how this is a story that is about the glory of men,

and that's really kind of what the economy of ancient epic is. In fact, another definition I could have given you earlier when we talked about what is epic, is it is the stories of men. It actually calls itself that. In Greek, that's Clea Andron. That means the stories of the glories of men. So women just really aren't part of that economy. In fact, what they are doing to that is that they are either helping

men to do what they need to do. So think of Penelope, who helps Odysseus to basically get reinstated as the king of Ithaca, or they are obstacles to what the men need to do. And that's like Calypso and Circe, who are basically holding up. And again, I'm putting that in quotation marks Odysseus on his way back home. So there's not that much space for them within the epics. At the same time, there are women who kind of maybe just try and get their voices heard. Helen is a really great one. We haven't talked about Helen. No. I mean, in traditional storytelling, she elopes with Paris, like she runs away with him. It's like, ooh, let's get married and run away together.

But in the way you told it, it made it sound like she didn't have a choice and Paris sort of grabbed her. Well, she kind of tells different versions of the story, which is really interesting. So sometimes she talks about herself being unwilling and that she didn't want to go. At other times, she blames herself and she says, you know, I was the reason that the Trojan War happened and I feel awful about it. In fact, when Telemachus does his mini Telemaqui and he goes on his trip, he goes to Sparta and he sees Helen and Menelaus.

Like now we're after the Trojan War. Helen's got back home to be with Menelaus, her first husband again, really awkwardly playing sort of happy families, telling stories to each other about the Trojan War. Darling, do you remember that time? Do you remember that time when the war, you know, my face and everything? Yeah, exactly. It's really, really funny.

But she actually gives them drugs to try and make them forget what happened, which I kind of think, you know, if you're Greece's biggest homewrecker, that's what you're going to do. You're going to drug your audience. Yeah, you've got to try everything. Yeah. So it's interesting. So Helen, maybe the agency there is tricky. But the women in this story are sometimes obstacles. They're sometimes seduces. There's sometimes goddesses. But Athena is the sort of one true friend of Odysseus, at least. She is. And in fact, she's the one who really kind of motivates the plot of the Odyssey in a lot of ways. It's the beginning of the Odyssey is her storming onto Olympus and saying to Zeus, you need to get Odysseus off the island of Calypso. So she's the one who kind of sets the narrative going. And then at the very end, when we've got the families of the same, the same, suitors back on Ithaca who were kind of rising up and are really annoyed at what Odysseus has done. It's her who calms everyone down.

So she's really kind of the one who's like taking Odysseus's narrative in check and making sure everything happens, right. So there we go. We're just a 27,000 words of poetry in about an hour. So you can condense it, see? Yeah, this sort of edited highlights. I mean, they're extraordinary stories and poems. I mean, is there anything that stood out to you, anything that surprised you?

Yeah, a lot. Loads of it. Mainly the dynamite. I think bringing back dynamite. You don't hear about dynamite anymore. No. It's so vintage. Yeah, yeah.

There must still be uses for it. I mean, yeah, maybe not on archaeological sites. Yes. Let's say no to dynamite. Maybe in mining, but maybe less so in science and archaeology. But as a storyteller yourself, is there anything in these stories that you sort of heard and went, oh, that's interesting. I wouldn't have done that or, you know.

I wouldn't have done most of it. I will say that. But it's a storyteller, I mean, in terms of the narrative, you know, the structure of it, the flashbacks, the kind of three stories spinning simultaneously. Yeah, well, I mean, it's a lot like what we do when we're improvising. We do callbacks and you have like flashbacks or you have like two years later.

Someone might shout out from the side of the stage. Nice. Things like that. But I can't believe how long this stuff took. Is that true? Are there years like our years? We're talking about myth here, right? Like, is it any of this true?

Like, I think, you know, one thing that people have talked about is, for instance, the Trojan War being 10 years, in some cultures, the idea of kind of 10 years is something that you would use for endless. So it's also just a kind of way of demarcating like a really, really big and long war. Just a huge, huge war. But also 20 years away for Odysseus and he gets back

and actually he's still kind of a young man, right? Because he left when he was like 21 too, probably. You again get this kind of youthfulness so maybe he's got the Athena glow up. Because yes, he didn't have his pig. No, he didn't have his pig transformation. He gets his moment. He must sting, though.

After 10 years, I'm trying to get home. Yeah, I mean, he had some baths on the way back. He got bathed by various of his hosts. I bet he's wearing his own underpants. Definitely. Yeah, yeah. At one point, he wasn't. At one point, he washed up naked on the shore.

That's true. Yeah, he got new clothes. All right, well, it's been quite the ride. So, Mark's out of, how many stars would you give the Iliad and Odyssey now? Oh, I loved it. Yeah? I'm into it. Cool.

And I really want to see this film now. Good. I wasn't bothered before. Brilliant. And now you are. Can I give it a four and a half? I'll take it. I'd like, yeah, I'd like to do that.

I think Homer would be pleased with that. I think so. I'm really interested about the Achilles heel thing. I didn't know that. Yeah. That was about getting dipped in by his heel. And it's probably more of a Roman later thing. Well, it's definitely, the first time it comes up is a lot, lot later than in Homer.

So, yeah. The nuance window! Time now for the nuance window. This is where Kyle and I sit and snack on figs and olives and try not to turn into pigs, while Dr. Emily whips out a liar and sings to us, oh, wonderful muse, something that we need to know. about the Iliad and the Odyssey. So my stopwatch is ready.

Here it is. You have two minutes. Take it away, Dr. Emily. Why do we tell stories? What does the story have to do to survive nearly 3,000 years? I can't speak to 3,000 years of experience, but each time I come back to the Iliad and Odyssey

in my lifetime, they mean different things to me, and each time it is a journey. As a teenager, the Odyssey to me was about Odysseus' son, trying to become himself between a mother he doesn't understand and a father he doesn't know. know. At university burning the candle at both ends, the Iliad was about Achilles burning out in a blaze of glory. And more recently, as a young mother, I have come to see that same epic through the eyes of his mother Thetis, the grief of losing a child too soon, the determination

to do what she can for him because he matters more than anything. Literature gives you what you are looking for. And literature like the Iliad and Odyssey that have been read across many hundreds of lifetimes contain the lives and the thoughts, the hopes and the dreams, the paths taken by all the people before you who have read them. We mentioned Alexander the Great, who kept a copy of the Iliad beneath his pillow, and when he lived with Achilles, what he got from him was war, global conquest and glory, and a young death that burns the world with it. It is a pattern of destruction and a story that so many of us see around us today. But this is not the only story the poems hold. These are stories that were born in change, that from their oral origins

were told again and again in different ways according to who was speaking and who was listening. And in this there is another Iliad and Odyssey, I see, a story of reconciliation, of community, a tale of warning against losing touch with the earth and the people around us. As I see it, the Iliad ends with a scene of human hope and heart that shows even the most resolute and destructive warrior Achilles in the dark, in his hut on the beach,

with his hands kissed by the father of the man he killed, and they cry together for the families they have. have lost, they break bread together, and Achilles offers to Priam kindness, handing back Hector's body for the humanity of burial. So let us cry together. Let us go on that journey and hang in the balance at the end and see that these poems that have lasted several thousand years remind us that it's not easy, but you can. We can move past war and destruction. We can care for those around us. We can see through the eyes of others, and in so doing, we can read these poems as a journey towards humanity, towards heart, towards hope.

Beautiful. Thank you so much. Makes me feel like I should have that at the end of my show. Everyone comes out and going, yeah, yeah, that's exactly how I feel. I'm available. Oh, great. I want to come to Swindon. So what do you know now? Well, it's time now for the So What Do You Know Now?

So, Kyle, we've done a lot of talking. We've summarised 27,000 lines of poetry. Easy. Yeah. Do you feel confident? didn't make many notes. No, I didn't. I sort of forgot that the book was there.

It kind of blended into the table a little bit. You were prioritising the oral poetry. Yes, exactly. I was taking it in. Is it still in there? We'll see. We'll see. Ten questions for you.

Okay, here we go. Question one. Which blind poet has traditionally been credited as the author of the Iliad and Odyssey? Homer. Very good. Question two. How were the Iliad and Odyssey first communicated? Song.

They were. They were sung. Song live. Question three. What tool did Schleeman use to excavate at Troy? Dynamite. Yes. I think he used shovels too, but he did use dynamite, which is not tremendously helpful.

Question four. What event supposedly caused the Trojan War? There's a certain woman involved. His eyes are rolling around his face. Hopefully they won't fall out. What event caused the Trojan War? Who running off or being perhaps taken? Oh, because what's the name?

name had a slave and then thingy Bob took the slave off. That's a different one. That's the start of the Iliad. I was thinking here of Helen and Troy. But that is good knowledge. I'm giving him half a point. Half a point because you were remembering Brissaeus, wouldn't you? So I'll give you half of that. Question five, what does Cleos mean in ancient Greek?

It's what Achilles really, really wanted. It's not in your notes. Story. No, it means glory. He wanted glory and fame. You can't give me half for rhyming. story rhymes fine i'm giving him half a good one okay fine okay question six why do achilles and agamemnon fall out in the iliad actually you've already said this one because he took his slave of him very good clear questions look let's like come on tell you my sleeve question seven what is the name of odysseus's faithful wife who waits 20 years for him

penelope very good question eight name one obstacle of many obstacles that odysseus faces on his 10 year commute home He had told Cyclops who blinded him, and then Cyclops said, Dad. Very good. That boy blinded me, and then he did some stuff to the sea. He did. That's very good. Question nine, what famous trick did Odysseus design to get inside the walls of Troy? They hid in a horse.

It did, the Trojan horse. Yes. Question 10. I think this is for eight and a half out of ten? I've lost count, to be honest. Yeah, let's say nine. Okay, let's say nine out of ten. This for nine out of ten, maybe.

Regret does Achilles share with Odysseus when he meets him in the underworld? Living too fast and dying too young. That's right. He wanted a boring life as a farmer. I'm giving you nine out of ten. Yes, sir. I think that's pretty good. I think that's excellent. I'm very pleased. Let's see if you can get a bonus point.

What was the Greek name for a wandering poet who got their free meals for a good story? Do you remember? Think famous queen's song. Rapsodes. Very good. I'm giving you 10 out of 11 years. Yes, sir. Nice one, Claire. I'm really happy with that, actually.

Well, thank you so much, Kyle. Thank you so much, Emily. Thank you. If you want more from Kyle, obviously check out our Laith Erickson episode. It's more wanderings, more voyages in the Viking world. And for more epic historical poetry, we've got episodes on King Arthur and, of course, the Mesopotamian epic of Gilgamesh, which is also very funny and surprising. I just like to say a huge thank you.

To our guests in History Corner, we had the incredible Dr. Emily Hauser from the University of Exeter. Thank you, Emily. Thank you so much. It's been so much fun. It's been a pleasure. And in Comedy Corner, we had the brilliant. Kyle Smith Bino. Thank you, Kyle. Thank you. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we ask the historical muses

to sing us another song about the past. But for now, I'm off home. Hopefully, it won't take 10 years. But you know what? British trains, it may be will. Bye! Greetings, malevolent munchkins, fiendish friends, and devilish do-gooders.

Welcome back to the home of the oxymoron. Evil genius! I'm Russell Cain, and I'm delighted to be steering the ship that unceremoniously wrenches historic figures from their perfect pedestals so that we can decide whether they're evil, genius, or a heavy concoction of the two.

It's like the podcast version of telling your kids the ice cream van plays music when it's out of ice cream. Yes, it's evil. Yes, it's genius. Get on board now and listen to Evil Genius on BBC Sounds.