You're Dead to Me - The Jacobites

Episode Date: April 7, 2023

Greg Jenner is joined by Dr Jeremy Filet and comedian Eleanor Morton to learn about the Jacobites.During the 17th and 18th centuries, across Britain and Ireland, the Jacobite movement was at its height. The Jacobites were mainly, but not exclusively, Irish or Scottish and most, but not all, were Catholic. They wanted the restoration to the British throne of the Stuart line that began with James VI of Scotland who was also James I of England and Ireland. If you’re thinking it’s complicated, you are right. Across roughly two centuries there were lots of battles and, spoiler alert, the Jacobites did not succeed. In this episode we focus more on the culture of Jacobitism, such as why all the best pub names in the UK are probably Jacobite in origin. We also look at how an illegal, and often brutally punished, revolutionary movement managed to communicate and coordinate in secret across multiple seas and countries.Research by Anna-Nadine Pike Written by Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner Produced by Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner Assistant Producer: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow Project Manager: Isla Matthews Audio Producer: Steve HankeyYou’re Dead To Me is a production by The Athletic for BBC Radio 4.

This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon pull-apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey and just five bucks for the small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are grabbing our tartans and donning our revolutionary rosettes as we travel back to 17th and 18th century Europe, with a long way over in Scotland,

to learn all about the Jacobites. And to help me do that, I am joined by two very special guests. In History Corner, he teaches French and linguistics at Manchester Metropolitan University and is a specialist in early modern history and literature. Best of all, he's an expert on all things Jacobite. It's Dr. Jérémy Fillet. Welcome, Jérémy. Thank you for having me, Greg. It's a pleasure.

And in Comedy Corner, she's a comedian, writer, actor and viral internet sensation, as well as writing jokes for various Radio 4 shows. You may have heard her on Radio 4's The Rest of Us, exploring overlooked historical figures, but mostly you've probably seen her on the internet being very silly with her online sketches, including the iconic Craig the Unenthusiastic tour guide. It's Eleanor Morton. Welcome, Eleanor. Hiya. Hello. How are you? I'm all right. And just glancing at the titles of your many viral comedy sketches, but they are things like money saving tips from Victorian urchin and the sitcom Friends, but in 1699. I'm going to throw the caution to the wind and say definite hardcore history fan here, right?

No, hate it, hate it. Yes, big history nerd, but not enough to have studied it properly too lazy for that so okay just like making fun of it enthusiastic parallel amateur running side to side onto all the historians yes and you're scottish so i'm assuming you did the jacobites at school i don't think we did do them at school i think we did we did watch braveheart which seems wrong i mean i think that was just the teacher trying to you know keep us occupied us occupied. So no, we didn't do the Jacobites. We did the Scottish Renaissance, which is a thing. I know that sounds made up, but it was a thing. And then we did a bunch of British stuff.

But no, no Jacobites. Maybe they were scared we would get ideas. I don't know. That's it, isn't it? They don't want to inspire a young generation to launch a coup. All right. And so you're coming to this fairly fresh then. Let's see if we can give you some Jacobite facts. So what do you know?

So this is the So What Do You Know? And we've got an Englishman, a Frenchman, and a Scotswoman. We're all walking to a podcast. It feels like the setup to a joke. So let's hope for some comedy. And we're going to have a little rummage now into what we think we know about this subject or what listeners might know about the subject. And I think the phrase Jacobite is going to be familiar. If it is, you're probably thinking of uprisings and battles. The final and most famous being Culloden in 1746, where Bonnie Prince Charlie's forces were mercilessly cut down

by the Duke of Cumberland's redcoats. And pop culture cut through. Well, often on this show, I'm like, ah, you won't know it. But I reckon pop culture on this one's quite good, I think. If you know your literature, Robert Louis Stevenson's got a novel called Kidnapped, set in his era.

But I'm thinking it's probably going to be the Outlander series that people will know. That's the series of books by Diana Gabaldon and also the lavish TV adaptation starring Katrina Balfe and the impossibly handsome Sam Heughan. Swoon! Honestly, he's too good looking. But beyond the battles, bayonets, and brooding beefcakes,

what made a Jacobite a Jacobite? How would you spot a Jacobite? Where would you join a Jacobite toast? And other Jacobite questions. So let's find out, shall we? On we go. Right, Dr. Jeremy, it says in my script, let's start with the basics, but I know

from history, there is no such thing as basics here. We have an incredibly complicated bit of British and international history. So how do we begin this story for Eleanor? So we begin in 1688 with King James II of England, who is also James VII of Scotland. So that's because the two crowns were separated until the Act of Union created Great Britain in 1707. James is forced into exile in France by a Protestant coup. That's often called the Glorious Revolution, although we prefer the term 1688 Revolution. James II and VII was the brother of King Charles II and they were both the sons of King Charles I, who is the one who's had his head chopped off.

Though James was the rightful heir, he was a Catholic, and that was a big problem. So the 1688 coup, his Protestant daughter married a second, being offered the throne along with a Protestant Dutch husband, William III. He's also William II of Scotland, and he's commonly known as William of Orange. And Catholic James had to flee to France. Pretty simple, NNR. Did he get all that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And in terms of our backstory here, we have a coup for James II slash VII. So he's been shunted off the throne by his own daughter and her new hubby who's dutch so he's william of orange so it's all quite busy the glorious revolution a phrase that jeremy does not like to use which is understandable because whose glory are we talking about here it's quite soap opera-ish so far and it's quite an unlucky family the stewarts aren't they if you think about it you know the dad gets his head cut off the son has to live through a plague and a great fire and then

the other son gets boated off it's not gone great mean, if you start with Mary, she gets her head cut off. So it's not a great, you know, it's not a great starting point. No. Gran. No. And Queen Anne has quite an unfortunate life as well. Okay. So I think we've learned here, don't be a steward. But Jeremy, by the word Jacobites, what is the sort of simplest way of describing their ideology? Jacobites are the people who believe only God could choose a rightful king. So they supported the restoration of the senior line of the House of Stuart. That means the May line, obviously. Yes, because men are best. Initially, that was the post James II or seventh of Scotland. And then its son,

Paul James III, and then his son, James again, that we know as Bolling Prince Charlie. And these Jacobite restoration efforts span 60 years across the reign of joint monarchs, William and Mary, Queen Anne, George I, George II, but Jacobitism stay alive much longer in various forms after that. Okay, so we have James II slash 7th, and then his son, James III slash 8th, and then his son, Charles, who we call Bonnie Prince Charlie. It's all quite complicated. And I mean, Eleanor, obviously, with your detailed knowledge of this period, you know, across those 58 years of Jacobite history. Thank you so much, by the way, for inviting me on for a huge period of history.

Not like a year or one battle or a person, just like four monarchs worth of British history. Thank you so much. Thank you. You're welcome. We thought, how can we make this as difficult as possible for her? I do appreciate the sixth and the seventh editions from Jeremy because people miss them and you know it's just it would be weird for James the sixth and James the seventh to be called James the first and second in Scotland because they did have a whole bunch of ancestors also called James

it would just feel weird to them so. Exactly. I mean, it's important to recognise. Yeah. And in 1707, you get the Union of the Crowns, which you then get the British monarchy as we know it now. But yes, we're not quite there yet. Jeremy, can we have the absolute bare minimum information that we need to get through this episode? Because we're not doing politics and war today. We're doing something else. We're doing culture. So what are the very, very brief highlights of the military campaigns of Jacobitism? Bare minimum is quite a lot, actually. Okay. Something you could fit on a fortune cookie.

Yes, yes. Yeah, okay. So if you wanted to restore the line back on the throne, you had two choices, either an uprising at home in Britain or rely on a foreign invasion from abroad. That's exactly what they did. So you had some uprising in 1688, what we call the Williamite War in Ireland, with the Battle of Killicrank in Scotland. Then you got more uprising in 1708, a famous one in 1715, led by the Earl of Mar, another in 1719 with Spanish support, and then the most famous of all in 1745, when Bonnie Prince Charlie fails to get the French to back him. So his army reaches as far as South Derby, in the middle of England, but they turn

back instead of marching off London. Eventually, they're all slaughtered at Culloden in 1746. It was quite the massacre, actually. Yeah, it's pretty brutal. So they reach Derby, which for foreign listeners is in the Midlands. It's not that far from London. They get quite far into England and then they turn around. I've got a question that's slightly further back. Yeah.

Was Williams only claim that he was married to Mary? Yeah, that was his claim, yeah. Okay, great. Yeah, he's basically quite an yeah. Okay, great. Yeah. He's basically quite an effective statesman, quite good at war, quite competent,

Protestant, and married to the right woman. So they're all like, okay, a double act. We've never had, never before and never again double act monarchy.

So it's quite a rare thing. Sonny and Cher kind of vibes. I was going posh and Bex, but Sonny and Cher is nicer, actually. I prefer it. So, yes, we've got an imported Dutch king co-ruling with a Protestant Stuart queen, Mary. I mean, Jeremy, those are lots of battles, lots of uprisings. 1688, Kili Kranke, 1715, 1745 is the big sort of finale. Jacobitism is happening primarily in Scotland.

That's the heartland, but it's not only in Scotland. Yes, you're right. So Jacobitism was stronger in Ireland and Scotland, and it has a smaller presence in Wales and England. So there were a fair number of Jacobites who were Irish Catholics who went into exile in Europe and settled in Catholic countries like France, Spain or Italy. On the contrary, in Scotland, Jacobitism was strong in the islands like Aberdeenshire and Perthshire. So there were also a lot of Protestant Jacobites. What was the appeal for them then? Why did they go for Bonnie Prince Charlie if they weren't Catholics? I mean, it's a good question, Eleanor, because I mean, anyone who's read a history book, the whole point of the kind of Catholic uprisings is to get the Protestants

off the throne. What I do know is I did Scottish Literature at uni and we got given a map of all the different types of Protestantism, like a big spider diagram. So I know that it's very complex. It's not just as simple as Catholics, Protestants, but I don't know why. Are there other reasons people might side with a Catholic monarch? Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. As well as religion, you had Scottish society was a clan space structure. So it lends itself to Jacobitism because each clan has its own private army. So if you were the head of a clan, so the chieftain, most of the people who were your tenants followed your way. So if you were Jacobites, they would turn into Jacobites, more or less.

On the contrary, in England, it's completely, completely different. Society was divided into two groups. So you had the upper class, which we call the patricians, the other rulers, the posh ones, and you had the lower class, the plebeians. So those who were ruled over, you had much more Jacobites in Scotland and Ireland, much less in England. But in England, the supporters of the Jacobite movement would usually belong to the Tory political party. Right. Which is quite different to the one we've got today. So the Scottish Jacobites are mostly going to be working class Highlanders who are just doing what they're told.

Whatever their chief has decided, they're like, all right, I guess I'm a Jacobite. And then in England, it's much more likely to be basically Jacob Rees-Mogg is the Jacobites of this era. There's people like George Keith, who's the 10th Earl Marischal. He's quite the character. I mean, he's all over the map. Jeremy, what's he up to? This one is a bit special. So he grew up a Whig, so basically the contrary to a Tory, and also a Scottish patriot.

And he turned into a Jacobite in 1707 because he was against the Act of Union. So he was against the union of the Crown of England and Scotland into Great Britain. So you really had a completely different investment here. It was not solely in favour of the Stuarts, but rather against the English and in favour of a sort of Scottish independence movement. against the English and in favour of a sort of Scottish independence movement. So the Jacobite uprising is intrinsically linked to, if you're pro-Jacobite, you're anti-union, is that right? Or anti-union of the parliaments or the crowns?

Sort of, you know. No, there is overlapping, definitely. It could be either or you could be both. Okay. I'm glad it's simple. Basically, the Venn diagram is loads of Venns. Yes. So many variables. Yes, exactly that. All right. Okay. So history is playing out here. It's quite complicated stuff. I mean, the mix of Jacobitism is also already quite complicated and it's an underground movement.

So I suppose we want to know, how do you find your allies? How do you find your friends? Let's start with the symbols then, the visual branding. So what signs and symbols might you be looking for? Well, I'm picturing some kind of badge or is there a flower? Is that one of the things? Yeah, maybe. I know this because a few years ago, the SNP turned up at Westminster with white roses. And I learned that that was something to do with this. Is that right? It is right. White rose is one of them. I mean, Jeremy, there's a few actually and Eleanor's spot on with the kind of natural imagery.

So what have we got on our list? Yeah, so Eleanor was right. There's definitely the white rose, but there are other things. So you could have a sun, a thistle, a star, or a garland of oak leaves. But none of those symbols were unique to Jacobitism. They were generally associated with Stuart royalty. And so Jacobites were reminded of their historical traditions. I think a particularly interesting one, which you kind of mentioned,

was the six-petal white rose that has two buds. So for James III and his two sons. There was also a bunch of other symbols. The most famous one is the oak tree. And this one recalled the image of the oak tree in which King Charles II had hidden after losing the Battle of Worcester. So wearing one of these wouldn't necessarily mean you were Jacobite. Would you wear a bunch of them or would you have a tattoo?

Some of these are cool tattoos. Some of these are great tattoos. I'm not sure about tattoos. I know you could be wearing some of those symbols, although probably secretly to avoid persecutions, yeah. So what, on your underwear or something? Could be. Somewhere where people can't see.

Exactly that. You lift up your shirt and there it is. It's a third nipple. It's a thistle. I mean, there's also a tree as well because obviously the oak tree is where King Charles had hidden to escape from Cromwell's men. But there's another tree that they don't like,

which is the orange tree. Because William of Orange. And so they're like, no, he's the import guy. We don't like, which is the orange tree. Because William of Orange. And so they're like, no, he's the import guy. We don't like him. So yes, oak tree good and orange tree bad. So you could have maybe a tattoo of an orange with a cross through it. Down with citrus.

What would be your tree, Eleanor, if you're going to have some sort of movement named after you? Oh, I like a rowan. Oh! You know, a rowan's lovely. Berries, very nice in winter. And, you know, a good source of food for waxwings, which they need it, so. Absolutely.

Feed the birds. Excellent stuff. I mean, I'd have to be a ceanothus or Californian lilac because I'm resplendent in purple jumpers. I'm big and bushy up top, but I'm spindly and feeble in the trunk. Story of my life. Anyway, let uh talk about accompanied mottos there are sort of little little mottos people are sort of muttering to each other and writing on things yes so you had one in latin fiat and this one is quite good because you can translate it two ways so it could either mean let it be like let the restoration come to, or Luke, love and follow, which was associated primarily with Bonnie Prince Charlie.

Luke, love and follow. Sort of the live, laugh, love of its day. Pop it on a cushion, hang it in your kitchen with your mum. Yeah, lovely. It's a charming thing. Let it be feels, I don't know felt like paul mccartney invented that but apparently not so that's interesting to know and where would you would you write these on and keep them on you or would you would you say them to people like uh the trains are running

very well in berlin that kind of thing or yeah you could you could definitely uh tell them to people but always keep it secret and discreet i I mean, Eleanor, one of your most famous sketch characters is Craig, the low-energy tour guide. I think low energy is a polite way of describing him. He seems to hate his job. He does. Where would the hangout spots be for the Jacobites? Where would he be showing people around today, going back to the 18th century?

Well, Killy Cranky was mentioned, and it is lovely. You should go. It's always autumn in Killy Cranky. There's not a single photo that exists where it's not autumn. That's a beauty spot. I'm picturing a lot of barren moors and fields where a lot of people died. So you're thinking outdoors, battlefields, the kind of the site of great speeches. That's all spot on, I think.

I mean, that's not where people are meeting, Jeremy, because I guess it's chilly outside. So they're meeting indoors. Where are they indoor hangouts? Again, it depends whether you're really posh or whether you're the common folk. So for the plebeians, so the common folk, you would meet in taverns or hell houses. And they have quite telling names like Rose and Crown or the Royal Hoke or King's Head. For the much posher patricians, you had social clubs, secret social clubs. Again, you had various names that were quite telling. The Cycle of the White Rose, the Sea Surgeon's Club.

The Sea Sergeant's Club. I like that one. I don't know what Sea Sergeant is, but I like that. It does not sound very Jacobite to be fair, this one. Like a sea scout. They're just doing knots maybe, earning badges and doing navigation. I don't know what sea sergeant is but I like that he does not sound very Jacobite to be fair this one like a sea scout they're just doing knots maybe earning badges and doing navigation I don't know fire safety on the sea and there's also the have you heard of the king across the water Eleanor I have yes it's in a few songs yes Bonnie Prince Charlie isn't it is that right he's one of them yeah absolutely so James and then the next James and then Charlie yeah the song's absolutely right there's a thing you do while you sing the song. Do you know what it is?

Is it the Macarena? Yes, it is. I don't know. Almost. No, it's, you drink a little toast, Jeremy, and you, what do you do? Do you kneel? What do you do? Do you kneel? What do you do? Yeah, so you can either kneel or you toast above like a bowl containing water. So that means the English Channel. So you're toasting literally to the king over the water. Ah, nice. That makes them sound a lot more mystical and exciting than they are. Sort of Arthurian almost instead of like a couple of slightly paunchy blokes who

think God chose them to be in charge. You know, less romantic. Also, there's a slight issue if you're an Irish Jacobite, because the king across the water would be King George of Britain. Because like if you go across the Irish water, you know, that sea. Multiple waters. The king around and then up across the water. It would have to be. It doesn't quite work.

Maltic the king around and then up across the water. It would have to be. It doesn't quite work. I mentioned King George. Obviously, for listeners who don't know, we get into in the 1714, you get the first imported king of the Hanoverian dynasty, George I.

He's a German. He's from Hanover. He's brought in because he's a Protestant. He takes over from Queen Anne, who dies. That's Olivia Colman in the movie, the favourite. I'm telling you all this because, as well as singing the songs, Eleanor, these songs are also, they're also insults.

And it's important to make sure you're insulting your enemy. That's what football fans do and that's what Jacobites do. And their enemy is George the German. And they have German insults for him. Do you know what they call him? Oh, God. A great big sauerkraut. It is food related. A sausage?

I don't know, I'm trying to think of German food. Oh, wait, a continental breakfast. Jeremy, we are talking more vegetables here, aren't we? Yeah, so they used to call him Turnip Man. Oh, I do know this, actually. I do know this because he loved growing turnips. I don't know if that's true. George III loved growing turnips i don't i don't know if that's true george the third love growing turnips george the third was the farmer king maybe that's who i'm thinking of i didn't

know there was more than one george who was associated with turnips i mean obviously turnip man terrible x-men his superpower is just adding nitrogen to the soil if you rotate him slowly but the reason they're calling him that is because in latin george means farmer or in greek rather in in ancient greek george or george just means farmer so they're saying he's a bumpkin turnip guy he's not a real king he's just some farmer bloke rich coming from us in scotland where at the time i believe 80 of the diet was turnips so it's very bold of us to have insulted him like that jeremy what else is going on with the jokes, the songs, the mockery? Can you tell us a bit more about the culture of people getting together? Well, you had a lot of them and they would be in press or in the street.

They could be anywhere. I can give you one if you want. There's a ballad from 1722 which said, and I quote, With horns on his head, he would look very smart. And so driving back in his owl-turning cart. which said, and I quote, So the turnip is here again. And that could be sang in the streets, just like, I don't know, a demonstration or anything. You also had printed material. So for instance, there is a newspaper of the time, The Flying Post, in its November 1714 edition that reported a crowd at Frome

disrupted the local coronation procession of George I. The supporters of this disruption marched with a scarecrow, representing George, brandishing a turnip instead of the royal scepter. And apparently they were announcing, here is Howard George, where is yours? So the point is that you had this license to make jokes. As long as when the law enforcement was coming, you would run fast enough not to get caught. I mean, we have a coronation happening quite soon, and I'm suddenly fearful of turnips being lobbed. Sticking with the names, they've mocked, obviously, King George because he's a farmer. Let's do our Latin here.

What do you reckon Jacobite means? Is it something to do with the name James or is that completely off? It is to do with the name James, yeah. Do you know how it gets there? No, I don't. I was going to make a stab in the dark. No, tell me. Basically, James is a modern name,

which is a medieval abbreviation of the Latin word for Jacob. So there are no Jameses, there are just Jacobs. Jacob becomes Jacobus, it then becomes Jacobus, and then in medieval French they abbreviate it to James, and then to James, and then James. Ah. James means Jacob, which is not helpful to anyone. But the Jacobites are the supporters of James,

who is called Jacob, but he's called James. I guess that's easier to say than the Jamesians. Yeah, the Jamesites, the Jamisites. The Jamboys. The Jamboys. So Jeremy has mentioned ballads. If you were to stumble into a Jacobite tavern, Eleanor, and you've already shown off your singing skills,

they would be singing Dear Jemmy as one of their songs. Lots of Ditty's diss tracks as well. There is a great one in the National Archives with 43 verses, so we won't sing it because we'll be here all week. But I mean, is that familiar? Are these songs still sung? You're in Edinburgh, right, Eleanor? Have you heard any of these? Yeah, there's a couple. Well, there's the Sky Boat song, which is a bit more modern, I think. But that's about Bonnie Prince Charles on a boat, and that's fun. And then there's one, Camuva for France, which is quite insulting, and I can't remember if it's pro or anti-Jacobian, but yeah, no, you still get those.

You know, if you go to a folk session, you'll definitely get a couple of those. Oh, lovely. Okay, so we know where to find our Jacobites, but what do they look like? Is there a dress code? Yeah, so there is sort of a dress code. Eleanor mentioned the right rose, and you would wear that on a special date, which is the 10th of June.

So that's the birthday of James III. Or you also had the oak leaf, again associated with a special date, 29th of May. That was a royal oak day. That's the restoration of Charles II, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, it is. Another public display of Jacobite affinity

would be the tartan and the kilt that were worn mostly by Scottish people, but also as a sign of following the Jacobites. You also had much more private demonstration. So you could wear a little locket around your neck containing a nice portrait, either of James II and the Eighth, or his son,

or his grandson. Was there any kind of penalty if you did any of this stuff? Could you be arrested for wearing any of this? Or was it just sort of frowned upon? It was a bit hostile. You could be arrested. People tend to do it in secret anywhere. You don't have many reports of people being arrested on the 10th of June just because they were wearing a white rose. It would be because they were causing disruptions or things like this. As well, if you went around Scotland arresting anyone wearing tartan, that would have taken a while. So yes, yes and no. People would hide most of the time. Okay.

And we also get Jacobite interiors too. people would hide most of the time. Okay. And we also get Jacobite interiors too. There's art, there's sculpture, there's ways to decorate your house to subtly signal to visitors that yes, I'm on team Jimmy. So what's going on with the interior design movement? So you could use the same symbol previously mentioned. So the oak leaf, the stone, the star, the thistle, or even just a portrait of James III or Bonnie Prince Charlie, which you could have on glasses, punchable, snuff boxes, or even on collectibles, various medals. Nice. Bit of merch.

Yeah, a bit of merch, exactly. A lot of merch, actually. I mean, if you go to any bed and breakfast in Scotland, I do believe they still have all that decor. It's been Jacobitised, yeah. It has been, yeah. I mean, it's been jacobitized yeah it has been yeah i mean it's fairly obvious if you've got a painting of a jacobite king on your wall how you where you stand on that unless it's a dartboard oh it's ironic it's an ironic picture but there were eleanor slightly cleverer images that you could have to deceive the onlooker unless they really

knew what they were doing have you ever heard of anamorphic pictures? No. Is it where, does Prince Charlie, if you look at it from a certain angle, does he turn into a squirrel? Yes, that's exactly right. He's an adorable squirrel and then suddenly it's the king. Jeremy, there's this sort of interesting movement of, I think Eleanor's not far, I mean, the squirrel's not quite true, but there is this idea of looking at a certain angle, a slightly hidden message, almost a kind of magic eye picture. Yes, Eleanor is not far off. It's the other way around, actually. It's a picture that would turn

into Bonnie Prince Charlie. So usually it just looked like lines. So it would look like nothing to the untrained eye but if you put a mirror at the correct angle the image will turn into a portrait you'd have to be a real fan as well i mean i can't think of anyone i like enough to put in a in a secret portrait that's i like taylor swift but i don't know if i like her in a secret portrait that much. What if she was deposed as the queen of modern pop music and she had to go and live in Paris? No, you're right actually, what we're talking about, of course, it would be Taylor Swift all over the place. And I'd get arrested for that and I wouldn't apologise. No, exactly. Justice for Taylor. All right. And we have also, I mean,

there's busts, there's sculptures, and there's more tree content as well. We're not done yet with our orange trees or oak trees. There's another tree, Jeremy. What's this tree? Yes, it's called a Scotch pine. And you can plant it in your garden so that someone who was a Jacobite as well, who was Indian known, would know that the street would be welcomed there. What if you accidentally just had one growing in your garden? That's stressful, isn't it? It's a naturally occurring scotch pine. The seed was dropped by a starling. It's nothing to do with me. I'm so sorry. Very confusing. Okay, so we've got a fascinating culture, but we do have uprisings, violent military uprisings,

which means that there will be points in the history where being a Jacobite is properly dangerous. You've said it was possibly against the law. Do we have, Jeremy, actual moments where people are being executed or imprisoned? You had to love that, actually. You were a traitor to the crown if you were a Jacobite. So you were a criminal. I have a good one for you. So you were a criminal. I have a good one for you. Francis Atterbury organised a well-named 1721 Atterbury Plot to coincide with the general election of 1722.

His plan was to overthrow George I in Parliament with helpbury was put in the Tower of London, and one of his co-conspirators called Christopher Leia, he was, I quote, hand-drawn and quartered. If you were participating to a rising, you were in a world of trouble. Unless you managed to flee into exile, if you were granted a pardon, or if you conveniently changed sides, that would work as well. Oh. So in a nutshell, the Hanoverian government basically considered Jacobitism a threat. Crikey. Okay, so that's quite serious.

I'd love the fact, I mean, I'm being stupid here, but the Atterbury plot, presumably the fact that he named it that, it gave away the fact that he was the leader. Maybe they should, in hindsight. It was named afterwards. Oh, okay, fine. Sorry. No, we did not put his name on the plot plan.

Guys, I've got a plot, all right? I've been working really hard on it hear me out 7 p.m at the rose and crown come on down and then we'll have a pub quiz and toast the king over the water absolutely so we have here people who passionately believe we've got people who've changed their minds we've got people who've joined the cause but do we also have people who are just sort of like, ah, this looks like fun, or like, maybe I'll get something out of this. I'm not really into the kind of politics, but like, hey, I could benefit from this. Do we have sort of fair weather Jacobites, Jeremy? Oh, definitely. And as well, big names, not just the common folk. So you had John Erskine, who was the Earl of Mar. He was nicknamed Bobbing John. Okay.

That was because he had a reputation for switching from one coast to the next. So being a Jacobite or an anti-Jacobite. Is he the one who, he had a big wholesome carriage and he put on the side that if we went pro-Jacobite, we would have 350 million pounds for the NHS? Is that another guy? That might be another guy guy that might be another guy that might be another guy yeah wait wait before the nhs i'm afraid so bobbing john the earl of mar um and what happens to him i mean where does he end up oh uh he led one of the big rising sort of 1715 rising so it's only second to the 45, but he keeps changing his affiliation,

Jacobite or anti-Jacobite. And someone called George Lockhart, who was him, a convinced Jacobite, said something really nice about Ma. He said that Ma had written to Jacobitism, I quote, as the dog to the vomit. Oh, lovely.

Oh, nice. So other Jacobites are saying this guy, he's not one of us. He comes back to it like a dog to the vomit. Oh, lovely. Oh, nice. It's nice. So other Jacobites are saying, this guy, he's not one of us. He comes back to it like a dog to its vomit. That's a kind of pretty hard line from a guy on your team. He was very unpopular to be fair. And he was a double agent all his life. When the Jacobite court was in Italy, he was a double agent as well. He would do anything to serve his own interests, basically. And did he get to keep all his limbs and live happily ever after? Somehow, yes.

Oh, really? Oh, wow. Okay. I think he was just a double agent. So he kept switching according to what was going on, just to gain favour. Goodness me. All right. If you've got the Stuart Court overseas, if they're in Paris, if they're in Italy, sometime, you know, if you've got Jacobites in Ireland and abroad, you're having to send messages out, you're trying to communicate as a gang. How are you getting those messages out secretly, Eleanor? What's your technology for encrypting your intel?

I think you write them on your tummy and then you don't show anyone until you get there. Nice. Do you swallow something? Oh yeah. Interesting. Do you swallow something and then it comes out the other end and is a message? Is this prison technology? Have you?

Yeah. This is all the things I do to keep the carousel around. Safe space. Jeremy, what we're hearing here is about ciphers, codes, switching out names, right? What do we know about this? Actually, now we do have a document that gives the list of alternative names. So it kind of gives you the key to decipher the cipher. You had lots of forms of encoding.

So you had anagrams, acrostics, substituted letters. You also had numbers that meant letters sometimes. All of them in one letter, if it was really sensitive. It was quite known that they were using ciphers to the point that the British government had a special secret department, which was not very, very secret, that was there only to decipher those letters. So to prevent communication between Jacobites at home and abroad, basically. Eleanor, do you want to know what the code names were for James II slash VII and the Pope? Was it the Opey and Ames the Evans?

That's a very sophisticated code. I cannot crack it. No, I hope they're hilarious, though. They're charming. They're not hilarious. They're just adorable. James II and VII Was Mr. Hunter Or Mrs. Peggy Oh that is lovely That's really nice

Mrs. Peggy Like a pantomime character Yeah And then the Pope Was Mr. Richie And his cardinals Were Mr. Richie's friends Oh lovely

I've seen that sitcom Yeah But yeah there we go Mrs. Peggy And Mr. Hunter Is is the king and mr richie and his friends the pope and we also get sort of other propaganda and pamphlets and and publishing materials going around the symbols and the songs the verses all of that kind of stuff and you know the printing press means that you can print stuff on mass which is good but it means then that as you say the authorities can intercept it which is bad, but it means then that, as you say, the authorities can intercept it, which is bad. And we have, I mean, who's James Anderson and

James Hodges, Jeremy? What are they up to? Yeah, so James Anderson and James Hodges were actually Scottish politicians who were awarded some money, £4,800 for printing anti-Jacobite material. That was quite common. Anti-Jacobite material was very much encouraged by the British government and printed press in favour of the Jacobite movement had to be very secret and kind of hush-hush. Yeah, okay, so there's a war happening here in the press. And then also we have James himself. He's off in exile in Paris. He's sort of sulking and he writes a book. It's not just Prince Harry. His book is called Royal Meditations, Being the True Portraiture of His Majesty in His Solitudes and Sufferings

in 1692. Sounds unbearable. It's a great read. So I guess that's the sort of bestseller amongst Jacobites. Everyone wants to read the king's book. He's also writing a political manifesto of his policies, but obviously that's less interesting to us. What we want to hear is the betrayal memoir, the whinging. And of course, we need to get on to spies, because everyone loves spies, Eleanor. Yeah.

How are you picturing these spies? Suave? Sophisticated? Handsome? Chronically constipated? Yeah, all of those things and more. I'm picturing them as 18th century James Bonds, but maybe cheerier and... Jacobite Bond, Jacob Bond. Yes, in a kilt. Although technically, canonically, Bond is Scottish so you know what?

Actually, that works out. I'm hoping they were cool and suave. Were they? They were and actually we're going to focus here on the women because actually there's quite a strong movement of female spies. Have you ever heard of Lady Elizabeth de Laval? Non. Non, okay.

Jeremie, tell us about Lady Elizabeth de Laval and her various name changes because she has plenty. Yes, and not a James Baldwin, more a James Baldwin woman here. So as I said, her name was Lady Elizabeth deaval and she remarried into Elizabeth Hatcher. So she was an English Jacobite spy implicated in the pewter pot plot. So the names come from the discovery of her cooking pots that we used to smuggle letter to James into France. So no belly writing, it was the bottom of the pot instead. Yeah. Pop it in the crockery. The pewter pot plot.

Good tongue twister. Yes, it is. So Delaval, who changed his name to Mrs. Hatcher, she and her husband, they're kind of being tracked, aren't they? They're on the move. They've been identified as spies. So they're undercover. Oh, yeah, immediately. They've got an arras warrant to both their names. The English authority follow them everywhere, track their movement, their correspondence. So Elizabeth travels in disguise, and you find her in the archives in Calais, the Ague, Paris, etc. gather information and share them with members of the Jacobite movements. So you can find a name in district papers around most of the key Jacobite uprising. A name sometimes is misspelled. So you find sometimes Lady Hatcher, but also one time Lady Hacker.

Oh, that's good. So either it's a misspelling or a name, or she was vocationally suited for spying. Not sure. And she's reporting to the head of the spy network, which I guess would be Joseph Williamson, who is an Irish MP, but it's his wife who's head of the kind of the female spy network.

So there's a kind of two networks happening in parallel. It's quite exciting. And she's then getting stuff back to James and the other Jacobite kings in France. And they're giving her cash, pension, reward. What's she getting out of this, Jeremy? Yeah, so she's getting a pension, a monthly pension, which is what you usually get for service to James II or VII. And she's even going to Saint-Germain. So she's going to Saint-Germain in France, because you find her in the records around the 1690s and the 1700s.

So it's quite likely that she came and went from France's court as a spy. Eleanor, what would be your undercover disguise name? Sue Bridges, just something quite boring. That's what they say. To be a good spy, you've got to be really just unmemorable. And I'd wear just beige and i'd have a beige wig and all my makeup to make big beige makeup you know just blend in with everything entirely beige you would just look entirely beige yeah yeah yeah and they'd be like was anyone even there oh it's like weird beige woman yeah super su beige maybe maybe su beige okay su beige and Sue Beige. Maybe. Sue Beige. Sue Beige, okay. Sue Beige. And my middle name is...

Eh? We've got another female... Spy's not quite the word, but we have another female hero here, Flora MacDonald, who you might know. Yes. She's one of three Scottish women that anyone knows anything about.

It's Flora MacDonald, Mary Quinn of Scots, and Lulu, and that's it. That's the three, the trilogy. Charlene Spiteri, obviously. And sorry, yes, there are more Scottish women than that. Yes, there are seven. But I've not met them. Do you want to tell us about Flora

MacDonald, or should we let Jeremy do it? I don't know. I mean, all I know is the sort of the very romantic image of her helping bonnie prince charlie escape and she's always pictured wearing some nice tartan dresses and i think she's from the hebrides or i think that's where they were i don't know yeah that's that's that's the extent of my knowledge that's good knowledge you're completely right so far yeah yeah jeremy what else is there to know? She rescued Barnet Prince Charlie after the 1745, actually. So we talked about the Skyboat song.

So the song is about that episode exactly. And so the 1745 Rising has failed. Culloden has gone horribly wrong. He's on the run. He's trying to get out of the country. And he bumps into Flora MacDonald. Does she seek him out? Like, how are they meet? He was brought to Flora's hut, does she seek him out? Like how would they meet?

He was brought to Flora's hut, or at least that's how the story goes. And she disguised Charles as a lady's maid. He was given a lovely nickname, Betty Burke. Lovely. Sue Beige and Betty Burke, undercover together. So they then sailed to the Isle of Skye. And so Flora herself, who'd later tell stories about that episode, a favorite being that apparently she forbade Charles from carrying his pistols under the petticoat of his dress in case they were searched and he was discovered. and the story says that the prince replied that if anyone was searching Betty's clothes thoroughly enough to discover the pistol, they would probably suspect it was not Betty anyway. Yes, fair enough. Okay, so she's a great hero who saves Bonnie Prince Charlie,

gets him out of the country, whisks him away and then sort of dines off the kind of romance. She doesn't get executed, does she? There's not a kind of big horrible end for her no good yeah good all right good all right so that's a buddy movie i want to see okay so 1745 is really the end of the jacobite movement in terms of military uprisings in terms of that's their last roll of the dice is it the end of the movement culturally you know are people

still clinging on afterwards well they do cling on a little bit but collodon was very much the end of the actual jacobite movement the physical historical historical jacobitism so you had peace negotiations in 1746 charles goes in exile in 1748 he tried one last time in 1751 and failed again. Oh mate. Yeah. Just leave it. Yeah.

Just leave it. It's getting embarrassing now. Yeah. Well, he actually, he actually leave afterwards. And he settled his court in Rome, where he died in 1788. So that's a hundred years right on spot after the revolution that first deposed his grandfather, James II. Yes, of course, 1688 to 1788. So he's hanging out with Mr. Ritchie and his friends. Yes.

The Pope and the Cardinals. This is why I'd be a terrible exiled ruler because if they were like, right, you can either fight for your crown, you can go back and fight for your crown in a muddy field, or you could live in Italy and I'd be like oh, it's a hard decision. Oh no. I think I should stay here. Your gelato, Your Majesty. Thank you very much.

Come in. Yeah, I mean obviously he wants his, I mean Bonnie Prince Charlie never got to be king so I guess he never got to sort of taste that sweet, sweet power. Oh, i have quite a controversial view of him actually i don't know if anyone oh yeah are you ready yeah i don't think he was that bonnie oh yeah i i don't think we can shame people on this podcast honestly

i think he's a seven which isn't terrible. But he's not. He's a 10, but he is a Gekkeweiss. He's not Sam Heughan. That's what I'll say. Yeah, well, no one is. No one is. It's true. He was well surrounded by a lot of women in Paris Brothel, if that helps. Oh, OK.

Well, you know, fair enough. He's tried. He's done his best. He got to Derby. Yeah. He got as far as Derby and he went, yeah, you know what? I've seen Derby. I can die happy. How can I top this? I won't top this.

The Nuance Window! Okay, well, I mean, Jacobitism is a fascinating movement, but it's time now for the Nuance Window. This is where Helena and I are exiled into a quiet corner for two minutes while Jeremy tells us something we need to hear about today's subject. So Jeremy, you have two minutes. The nuance window, please. Yeah, so what's most important to understand is the international composition of Jacobitism. The Jacobites were everywhere and they made careers for themselves in the administration, government, trade industry, an army of many European countries. We talked about France, Spain, Italy, but there are others

as well. So this gave the Stuarts in exile power and influence to attract support to the Jacobite rising. We've also mentioned a few spies today, but there were also diplomatic envoys or ambassadors that were dabbling in Jacobitism. Jacobite courtiers were tending courts as far as Russia and Sweden and would even push Jacobite agendas in tiny independent countries such as the Duchy of Lorraine, my favorite, or try to sway the allies of the Novarians at the court of the Holy Roman Emperor. So Jacobitism was not just a Scottish or British venture but it was intertwined with the fates and fortunes of nations around the world, through colonial ambitions and significant

diasporic communities. It's very much this almost endless branching out of the Jacobites that made them such an integral part of the 18th century. I'd like to finish this window by saying that Jacobitism did not really die with Bonnie French Charlie in 1788, but carried on in its ideological and sentimental forms for some years afterwards. Practical historical Jacobitism did indeed disappear after Culloden, but remnants of the movement resurfaced in the 19th century in the form of neo-Jacobitism. And to a certain extent, that's what we know today. That's given this romanticised version of the Jacobites

that most people knew about until today, hopefully. Incredible punctuality. 1 minute 59. That's phenomenal skills, Jeremy. Well done. Thank you so much. Oh, wow. I did not time it. That's amazing. Eleanor, what was your takeaway from that? Just that Jeremy was saying, you know, now we think of them as very romantic and the whole outlander thing. And it's interesting because as far as I'm aware,

Highland culture was kind of banned. And then it kind of exploded into this really popular thing in the Victorian times when my mortal enemy, Walter Scott, decided to dress Edinburgh up as this sort of horrible tartan tat circus for King George IV. And then the Victorians sort of ran with it and it became this really almost like kitschy kind of thing that is how Scotland is seen today. And yeah, it's funny that it went from like something that was very kind of dangerous to something that is sort of quite twee and romantic. You can buy any number of that kind of stuff in

Edinburgh. I wouldn't. So yeah, it's funny how that's changed. So what do you know now? All right, well, it's time now for the So What Do You Know Now? This is our quickfire quiz for Eleanor to see how much she has learned. We've had lots of Eleanor knowledge, but how are you feeling in terms of the quiz? There's a lot of history we fired at you. Yeah, there's loads. I mean, I'm going to see. I hope there's no dates or names or events. Okay, I'll see what I've got on the script, but I think it might not be that.

Might be out of luck. Here we go. questions question one from where does the word Jacobite come from the Latin for the name Jacob yeah which became the name James oh my god I love this it's like school yeah very good question two name two Jacobite natural symbols you might have seen the white rose and the oak leaf yeah absolutely you have a thistle as well and the garland of oak leaves and all that kind of stuff. It's all good stuff. Question three.

What was the nickname of Charles Edward Stuart? Bonnie Prince Charlie. He was. Not so Bonnie, apparently. Not in my opinion. Just my opinion. Okay. Question four.

How did Jacobite spy Elizabeth de Laval slash Hatcher smuggle communications for the Jacobite cause? Oh, ciphers. Yes, and think also kitchen utensils. Oh, and the pewter pot. Yes, the pewter pot plot. The pewter pot plot. Question five. As a Jacobite, how might you drink to the rightful king? You would drink over some water because you're toasting the king over the sea.

That's it, absolutely. Question six. In what year was the Battle of Culloden? 45? 46. 46. 46. Yeah.

Sorry. The movement was 45 or 46 at the battle. That's the most obvious question. Sorry. You did say no dates. And so that is my fault. That's my fault for having asked you a date. Question seven.

Who was Flora MacDonald? She was a noble woman who helped Bonnie Prince Charles escape by dressing him up as her maid and hijinks ensued. Absolutely. A hilarious rom-com. Question eight. Name swapping was a common security trick,

according to documents in the Highland Archives. Who was Mr Ritchie and his friends? He was the Pope and his cardinals. Great name for a band. And question nine. Jacobite insults included calling the Hanoverian king George I what agricultural nickname? The turnip man?

The turnip farmer? Just turnip? Yep, the turnip man, absolutely. Okay, Eleanor, this is for nine out of ten. Question ten. Name one of the prominent locations for Jacobite exiles. France. Yeah, I'll accept that.

Oh my God, I got it. There we go, 9 out of 10, a very strong score. You're so nearly there with your 1745, 1746. That's an embarrassing one. That's the only one Scottish people should really know. I'm going to go into exile. 9 out of 10 is a really strong score, and thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed your rummage through Jacobite history.

I really loved it. Thank you so much, Eleanor and listener. If you're salivating for more Scottish history, check out our episode on James VI of Scotland slash James I of England with the lovely Larry Dean. Or if you want to explore more historical uprisings, choose our episode on the Haitian Revolution. Particularly fascinating, that one. You'll find them all and

many more on BBC Sounds. Remember, if you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a review online, share the show with friends. Make sure to subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds so you don't miss any episodes. I'd like to say a huge thank you to all our guests in History Corner. We had the fantastic Dr. Jeremy Filet from Manchester Metropolitan University. Thank you, Jeremy. Thanks for having me. It was a lovely pleasure. And in Comedy Corner, we had the marvellous Eleanor Morton. Cheers, Eleanor. Thank you for letting me be a big history nerd. Oh, it's an absolute pleasure.

And listener, join us next time as we decode more hidden ciphers from the past. But for now, I'm off to go and adorn my tartan garter with the You're Dead to Me strap line. Bye! You're Dead to Me was a production by The Athletic for BBC Radio 4. The research was by Anna Nadine Pike. The episode was written and produced by Emma Neguse and me. The assistant producer was Emmy Rose Price-Goodfellow. Thank you. Hello, I'm Lucy Worsley, and I want to tell you about Lady Killers from BBC Radio 4.

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