You're Dead to Me - The Mayflower

Episode Date: March 6, 2020

Greg Jenner is joined by historian Dr Misha Ewen and comedian Alex Edelman to take a trip back in time and across the Atlantic with the passengers of The Mayflower.They ask all the most pertinent questions. What would you pack for a journey to a new world? What’s a great name for a baby born at sea? And just why is a journey that was objectively a gigantic failure held in such high regard in American culture?A Muddy Knees Media production for BBC Radio 4

This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon pull-apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey and just five bucks for the small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, a history podcast for people who don't like history, or at least people who forgot to learn any at school. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author, and I'm the chief nerd on the BBC comedy show Horrible Histories. This podcast navigates the murky waters of the past, using facts and giggles as our map and compass. And today we are packing our bags and setting sail for the new world.

That's right, we are venturing back exactly 400 years to 1620 and climbing aboard the Mayflower, the ship that carried the first English colonists to America. And to help me do that, I am joined by two very special guests. In History Corner, she's a Hawesworth Research Fellow at the University of Manchester and an expert on the social and economic history of the early modern Atlantic world. It's Dr Misha Ewan. Hi Misha, thanks for coming. Hello, thanks for the invitation. It's great to be here. It's good, Misha. Thanks for coming. Hello. Thanks for the invitation. It's great to be here.

It's good to have you. And in Comedy Corner, he's a comedian and writer, one of the few Americans to win Best Newcomer at the 2014 Edinburgh Fringe Festival and then return with the best-reviewed show of 2018.

He's been on Live at the Apollo, Live at the BBC, Roast Battle. He's the host of Alex Edelman's peer group on Radio 4, which sort of gives away his name, really. He's come all the way

from the Atlantic Ocean to come and get back on a boat and go all the way from the Atlantic Ocean to come and get back on a boat and go all the way across the Atlantic Ocean again. It is Alex Edelman. Hi, Alex. How are you? I'm less excited to be here than Misha, but I'm also excited to be here. No, no, no, I'm very excited. Greg is one of my favorite public historians that I personally know. You came to my wedding and everything.

Yes, it was a good wedding. The train ride was really excellent. It was. It was a good train ride. Anyway, Alex, I know you like your history. We've been to various museums together. But how were you with history at school? I was a terrible student, and then I made up for the vengeance. I was an even worse student, but I was way more intense about it. I took on history papers I was not equipped to write.

I actually had great history professors in college. But it was mostly bad stuff in high school. I was not doing a good job. So you've come to history late, but you are committed now. You're fully involved. Yeah, because I'm friends with this one public historian. And the Mayflower. When I say the Mayflower to you, you're an American.

Does your head fill with patriotic images of men in sort of weird broad-brimmed hats? Yes, I think of hats with a buckle on them. I grew up in Massachusetts, and so the Mayflower landing at Plymouth Rock was... But it was one of those things where people were like, everything you know about this is wrong, you know what I mean? Where people would be like, as soon as you said something, you were immediately disabused of the notion by your friends and peers.

You're going to enjoy this podcast, because that's what we do here. We disabuse you of all of your opinions. What fun. Not pedantic at all. Okay, well, let's crack on. So, what do you know? We begin with the So What Do You Know?

This is where I have a go at guessing what you at home might know about today's subject. And I think you've probably heard of the Mayflower. It's kind of iconic. I mean, it's not really that well known as a story, though, because in pop culture, all you kind of get is you get it's a ship that carries the so-called Pilgrim Fathers

across the Atlantic from Plymouth in England to the New World or North America, which is a slightly less exciting name. And in pop culture, there is not much to look for, actually. We had a look on IMDb, and you've basically got a sort of random sort of slightly crap made-for-TV thing. And they're cartoons in the states usually they're usually cartoons it is it's it's uh the simpsons has done it but like there's an anthony hopkins thing it's not great but apart

from that no one's done a movie i'm not guessing anyone at home is particularly clued up on this one but it is the 400th anniversary and that is a big big moment and there's lots of stuff going on this year so we thought we would try and get into ship shape and get to understand the history of colonialism and how America came to be. So let's crack on. What is a Puritan? Misha, what are we talking about here? These people, they are religious, but like how religious? So the Puritans are a radical branch of Protestantism in England at this time. They don't believe that the Reformation in England has gone far enough. So they want to see all of these Catholic elements stripped from the church in terms of traditions and practices. Which means like no stained glass windows, no kneeling while you pray, nothing not in the Bible.

Yeah, nothing like making the sign of the cross as well. So they're really focused on scripture. And if it isn't in scripture, then they see it as unnecessary and things that can be done away with. How many theses would they want to be nailed to the door? They're just like, he only nailed, what, 38? 95. 95. Why can't he have nailed 207? So I think like Greg said, some of the things that are seen as being kind of extravagant and ornamental in the church, but they're also not fans of Episcopal government as well.

So they believe that congregations should be able to lead themselves and have a much more direct relationship with God. And in part, that comes from their focus on reading the Scripture in English and believing that they can interpret for themselves what the Bible says and not needing other people to kind of act as intermediaries between them and God. So for a Jew, would you mind explaining, were Catholic masses being read in Latin at that point? So it's quite complicated, this period of history,

because Catholics have been banned as well. And then in comes this wishy-washy Church of England thing that James I has been putting forward. That remains wishy-washy to this day. Oh, yeah, that's a national tradition for us. Wishy-washy is very much our brand. And James tries to advance a kind of very singular church, doesn't he? He wants sort of top-down control,

and no one outside of that is allowed to practice. And these guys are a much more hard line. Yeah, I mean, he famously says, no bishop, no king. That's a good line. Yeah. It's so weird because you have two-thirds of a chant there. What would you add to it? No bishop, no king king little bits of string

the other thing that they talk about is saints but not in the catholic sense so in the catholic sense saints are people who've been very religious and then they've died and then god has sort of given them powers the idea is that they they believe they might be predestined to go to heaven like god had already decided in advance but they didn't know for sure and they obviously had to lead a good life in case god was like you're a douche you're not going to heaven so there was a little bit of doubt there so they still had to be good biblical people that's so much self-confidence yeah yeah never worked for jews just to be like i guess they're pretty much if your mother got to decide for you that you were a saint then that would

really work for the tradition of it. Okay, so they have been persecuted in England, really. I mean, Elizabeth I had been pretty brutal. James I says, no, you're not allowed to practice your faith. So they essentially are trying to escape from England. Alex, do you know where they go? Do they go

to Plymouth Rock in Massachusetts? Eventually. They go somewhere first. They go to the Netherlands. It seems like people sailing for America were just folks who couldn't read a GPS correctly. For a long time, they were just like, imagine how bad you have to read directions

to be like, this is India. But it's okay. So they go to the Netherlands. How long are they in the Netherlands? Well, how long do you think? Seven hour layover? I don't know. They're just in the airport. At Schopel? Yeah, they're just... They're there for about 11 years, aren't they? 11, how long do you think? Seven hour layover? I don't know. They're just in the airport.

They're there for about 11 years, aren't they? 11, 12 years. Yeah. So some of them have been there for kind of way over a decade. How many Puritans are there? In total in the Netherlands? How many Puritans are there in general? How many Puritans are in this bucket? We're talking a very small community. Most of the community that will become

the Mayflower community come from a place called Scrooby in Nottinghamshire. And it's like 40 or 50 people. It's small. It's not a big community at all. And they turn up in the Netherlands and they don't speak Dutch. And so they're a bit like, hello, do you... Oh, damn. So they don't really have a great job and they're sort of scrabbling around a little bit. While they're there, they're already planning their exit, but they are there for a long time. Yeah, most of them end up kind of working in menial trades in the cloth industry. So working in factories and yeah, really struggling to get by, living in quite cramped conditions. And I think after a time, they kind of start to look to kind of different horizons.

They tried to get out of England on a ship and they'd been caught by the captain who was like, no, no, no, you're not allowed to leave the country without permission from the king. That takes a while, doesn't it? Yeah, I mean, getting passports at this time is pretty tricky. And it's because of the reason that they don't want all these religious fanatics escaping and going overseas and spreading dangerous ideas. So they have these armed patrols along the coast that are there to try and capture anyone who might be trying to escape.

And when they first try to make it, they're all arrested. And then they actually get carted off to Boston in Lincolnshire. And then they try it again about a year later. this time the women and children are caught but because the authorities don't know what to do with them they actually decide just to let them go and go and join their men folk overseas and that's how they eventually come to be in Leiden. Yeah but I mean they're living in Leiden for over a decade but they for them it's a bit too chill I mean they're allowed to practice their religion but the Dutch are relaxed and groovy. And they're like, this isn't hardcore enough for us. So that's when they're thinking America. But that's a tough gig, because it costs money, doesn't it?

Yeah. At this time, to establish any settlements in North America costs a lot of money. The Virginia Company has something like over 1600 investors, and still, they're kind of sinking so much capital in that venture. so the puritans start looking for their own investors and turn towards the merchant adventurers they're individuals who are largely involved in the cloth industry so in england and markets in the netherlands so they have this background in trade the reason that they're interested in the puritans settling a colony in the states is that they're expecting that they're going to be able to kind of extract wealth through things like the trade in fur and also fishing as well. They've seen other people

do this in areas around Newfoundland and North America and they want to get a foot in that trade. So they know that America is that that's what they're aiming for and also they've started to have kids and the kids are growing up a bit sort of relaxed and Dutch and they're like you're not serious enough about religion you need to be less clock dancing and weed and more praying and being a saint. But also, they don't know how to get to the States because they don't have an in with the businessmen, the merchant adventurers, which is a great name. When we say they, is there like a guy in charge? Is there a thought leader for the, is there an Instagram influencer for these Puritans?

There are a couple, aren't there, Misha? So individuals like John Carver, I mean, he's selected to be the governor of the Puritans. There are a couple, aren't there, Misha? So individuals like John Carver, I mean, he's selected to be the governor of the Puritans when they're aboard ship before they make landfall in Cape Cod. Other individuals like Robert Cushman, who are there kind of trying to broker authority with the Crown to actually allow them to go and settle in the States. So they're constantly going back and forth between Leiden and London to try and establish whether or not they'll actually be able to go to the New World and set up a colony there and also to try and garner investment from these merchants as well. There's also William Brewster, who's chief religious dude. He's kind

of the head of the church almost, isn't he? Yeah. And Brewster also has a very sort of direct role in brokering what's going to happen with the Virginia Company. So initially, they go to the Virginia Company to try and get permission from them to settle within the bounds of the Virginia Company. So initially they go to the Virginia Company to try and get permission from them to settle within the bounds of the Virginia Company Charter. But that also kind of goes a bit amiss. But yeah, Brewster has a very key role in that. So they don't know how to get to the Americas and then they meet this guy called Thomas Weston. He's a sort of slightly crap middleman

who tries to organise the Mayflower expedition, but he's not very good at it and he's never really done it before. And so they spend ages trying to get the ships ready and the food ready and the supplies ready. I mean, this drags on for quite a few years, doesn't it? I mean, they first start trying to set this up in 1617 and it's not until 1619 that they actually manage to set sail. Partly this is because investment falls through,

because people learn that actually they're quite extreme and it's perhaps a bit displeasing to King James to be investing money in this group. And eventually they have to turn to other means of investment. Which don't go very well for them. No. You said that like it was a euphemism. What are the other means of investment?

Are they selling organs on the black market? Well, initially they have some investment from noblemen and people at court. But then when that doesn't work out, that's why then they turn to the merchant adventurers. Are these people influential or are they shit kickers? Because it seems that before modern times, a small and committed group of crazies could steer the course of an entire government. steer the course of an entire government. The story behind Hanukkah is this one family called the Maccabees,

the Hasmoneans, that were basically 45 religious fanatics who just started cutting the heads off various Greeks, and the Greeks are like, okay, thank you. We're gone. We'd like to leave now. So I'm wondering if these crazies who established basically the area of the United States I'm from were influential crazies or if they were just like so crazy that that england was like thank you goodbye i'd say it's probably quite easy to overstate their influence i mean these are people from a middling background people who have come from quite humble trades not particularly sort of rich and influential families.

And yeah, I guess by the English crown, they're sort of seen as being a bit of a pain in the neck, essentially. And still, it's difficult for them to get permission to actually go and settle a colony in North America. And they are awkward. No one wants them. The Dutch will put up with them. And these people don't really want to be in England. So everyone's like, fine.

But what's interesting about Thomas Weston when he's trying to set up this deal is that the people he's negotiating with, the Merchant Adventurers, whose name I love, I just, I mean, they should have their own theme tune if they run into the room. It's the Merchant Adventurers. They immediately kind of go, well, we're not backing a bunch of religious guys. You're like into God

and all that stuff, but we're looking for money. We want commerce, we want trade, we want fur hats and fishing. So if you're going to America, we're sending some guys with you to make sure that you're not going to just sit there and pray. What happens is they end up getting attached to ordinary people who aren't really interested in the kind of Puritan lifestyle. Yeah, there's nothing profitable about beauty. So there still has to be a kind of commercial element to this. Alex. Yes.

You're moving to a new continent, a new world. What are you going to pack? Where is this continent? This continent's America and I'm a Dutch Brit. You're a Dutch Brit. So if I'm Brutch and I'm headed to America, I'm packing my biggest buckle hat. My finest club. Well, now I'm like, well, now I kind of get my biggest buckle hat.

My finest cloth. Well, now I'm like, well, now I kind of get where the buckle hat comes from. It's Dutchie. Well, the buckle hat's sort of a myth as well, actually. Yeah, I figured that it might be a myth, Greg. Sorry. I figured that the cartoon that I saw when I was nine about the Mayflower may not be perfectly accurate. Do you want to know what William Mullins packed?

Let me guess. 16 pounds of venison. That'd have been useful. 45 Bibles to throw at people. No, he packed 139 pairs of shoes. Oh, man. Imelda Marcos over here, baby. He was a shoemaker.

It was his business. It was a bit of a Quentin Tarantino vibe, if you know what I mean. I don't know if he was into foot fetish or stuff, but he got out there and he was like, Hey, who wants to buy shoes? and everyone was like uh not right now William we're kind of dying of starvation. Is that true he's had 139 pairs of shoes? He did yeah but there are also guides on what you're meant to pack aren't they because Jamestown has been earlier so there are lists of things you're meant to bring. Yeah and I would say the shoes are not as ridiculous as it sounds people are going to be extremely reliant to begin with on provisioning trades, so kind of passing Dutch and English ships.

So shoes are going to wear out pretty quickly. So it's actually quite a savvy move of Mullins to bring all those shoes. And also, if it's anything like Jamestown, when starvation does hit, people there did resort to eating bits of leather. Oh, right. Yeah. So 139 pairs of his most delicious shoes. But yeah, you're right. I mean, from about 1619, colonists in Virginia started making these guides of what to bring.

And that included everything from farming equipment, things that would be needed to establish households, but also foodstuff and clothing. And then later we see similar things happening for New England and also Barbados as well. Just because people are coming without really knowing what they should bring and being very ill-prepared. So Thomas Weston, who has been trying to be the middleman and sort this all out, he is taking ages getting hold of a ship for them. So they're meant to be setting off in the spring. You leave in the spring and you arrive in the summer and you work out what you're doing. He turns up in August and says,

Hey, I've got a ship for you. And that ship is called what, Alex? The Mayflower? No. Oh, gosh. It's called the Speedwell. That sounds way better than the Mayflower. It sounds pretty good, doesn't it?

So they all get on the Speedwell and it immediately starts taking on water. Immediately? Immediately. When you say immediately, like immediately, immediately? I mean, like literally as it's leaving the harbor, they're like, this ship is sinking. So they turn around and they head back to port and go, well, that didn't go well. And Thomas Weston's like, oh, I'm so sorry. That's never happened before.

Like, have you done this before? He's like, no. We're lilting slightly to the left. And Thomas Weston's like, oh, shoot, that's where my shoe closet is. So they're meant to be taking two ships. So I did, I was a bit naughty there because they did take the Mayflower as well. They're meant to be taking two ships. And the Mayflower is the much bigger ship.

The Speedwell is a smaller ship. The plan is Speedwell will be a fishing ship because they're doing a deal with these guys, the Merchant Adventurers. The Merchant Adventurers! Sorry, I can't help it. They're meant to be taking this ship out to then be a fishing ship. But the Speedwell immediately just like springs a leak. And they're like, oh, okay.

So they go back to port and they're there for like a few weeks again, aren't they? And then it's too late to go. Yeah, time is ticking. And then what they do instead is squeeze everyone onto the Mayflower. Yeah, like 10 people decide not to go. Like a few people are like, you know what? I'm not doing this. This guy's an idiot.

This ship looks a bit ropey. I'm not getting on this boat. How long does it take to get from one side of the Atlantic to the other without outboard motors or any sort of... In a sailboat, minimum six weeks. Minimum six weeks? Minimum. That's bullshit.

Six weeks at sea? Minimum, yeah. Are you kidding me? Benjamin Franklin, when he used to come across to be the ambassador to Europe, he would often spend seven or eight weeks at sea. What? That's such a bad idea. Yeah, so they're setting off in August.

Then they spring a leak. They turn back around. So their second voyage is the Mayflower voyage. The famous voyage is September. And they're leaving way late. Way, way late. Because they're not going to get to the New World until winter, aren't they? How big is the Atlantic?

I'm not past this. How big is the Atlantic? It's no bigger than the width of my thumb on a globe. The distance between America and Britain when you're sailing is 2,725 miles. That's a lot of sea. It's too much sea. So these people cram on and there are 102 people who are going to the New World, only like half of which are the Puritans.

And then you've got the strangers. Yeah, so they're made up of about five families. And they're called strangers because they're not Puritans. They're seen as being kind of a bit other. Yeah, it's so funny. You got on a ship with the Puritans. They're like, hey, you guys, we're going to call you the weirdos. They're like, oh, okay, radical Protestants.

We'll be the weirdos on the ship. So one of the strangers aboard the Mayflower is Stephen Hopkins. And he's a merchant who has actually already been to America before. He was on the ship, the Sea Venture, in 1609 when it shipwrecked in Bermuda. It's actually headed for Virginia and he spends about 10 months on Bermuda before finally making his way to Jamestown and he lives in the colony for about two years. And his story is the sort of origin story of The Tempest, the Shakespeare play. Yeah, so the storm that they encounter in the shipwreck in Bermuda inspires Shakespeare and I think the reason that he's someone who's going to be useful for this venture

is because he already has experience of colonisation and hopefully will try to help the settlers anticipate some of the setbacks that they're going to face when they actually make landfall. Spoiler alert, it was a disaster. Yeah. So it doesn't really help actually having these supposedly more experienced colonists aboard. There's also about a fifth of the people aboard the ship are indentured servants as well. So they're people who are going to be labouring in the colony for a fixed term. And there are four pregnant women and even a couple of dogs aboard the ship. Always need a dog. Yeah.

So you can imagine it's just quite chaotic. Young people, old people. And it's really cramped in there as well. Really cramped, damp conditions. People are getting sick, suffering from scurvy. And later, Edward Winslow actually recommends that they should be bringing aboard lemon juice. He doesn't quite know about scurvy as we would understand it today, but he knows that that's something that will be beneficial for the passengers.

As you said, pregnant women. So there is a baby born on that ship. What would you name a baby born at sea? Gosh, there are so many good names that I could think of. I'd go with Aquaman. I'd go with Atlantis. That's a good name. That's a good name.

That's not a bad guess, actually. Atlantis Poseidon III, even if he's the first of his name. They went with Oceanus. Listen, I mean, they're not genius comedians. Oceanus is a good name. It's a bit Route 1. I'd love to see the, hey, you've had a baby at sea naming book. So they are at sea for a long time, and it is horrible on the ship, as you say.

The scurvy, the disease, they're cramped in. Does anyone die on board? Yes. So one person dies of illness, and there's another person who falls overboard. And accounts vary. Some say that he's saved. Others say that he drowned. Yes. So one person dies of illness and there's another person who falls overboard. And accounts vary. Some say that he's saved. Others say that he drowned. But one of the pilgrims later remarks that it was God's will because this was a proud and profane young man. So they're kind of not really bothered.

A proud and profane young man. Bit of a dick, basically. He just basically was a bit of an arsehole. You know what? I'm glad he fell off. So the journey took 66 days, which is a long, old time. You can imagine as well, I think, the mental state that these people would have been in, being confined and cramped in those conditions and probably feeling quite homesick as well. And I think it's something that does take a toil on some of the passengers. And then they arrive on the 11th of November and they've sort of stopped a bit early, really, because the captain's just like, we've got to get these people off the ship

because they're all going to die. So like landfall in America is not like this great heroic moment of like hooray we're here. It's more like when you've got to be sick in a car and you're just looking for anywhere to pull over. We've just got to get outside the road and be sick by the side of the road. Do they have a map of the United States and they know where they're going or are they just like we'll

go that away and then we'll hit whatever we hit. Well it is an issue that their captain, Captain Jones, is very inexperienced in American waters. He's never sailed a ship outside of Europe. And when they start approaching the Hudson River, which is where they're supposed to be making landfall, they encounter this massive storm. And instead of heading south to Virginia,

which is the intended destination, that's how they end up going north into Cape Cod in Massachusetts. So even that part of the story is unplanned. Wait, they're trying to go to Virginia and they wind up in Massachusetts? Are you serious? That's like 3,000 miles between two places. Well, at this time, Virginia was a much sort of larger region, what they thought of as being the whole east coast of North America. So not just the state of Virginia as it is today, but yeah.

Okay, fine. And so they arrive the 11th of November, winter, not great. And they're all in pretty bad shape. And they've arrived in the wrong place. It's gone really well. But they then immediately go, oh, we need to invent a government. Have you ever heard of the Mayflower Compact? Yes, I have.

Yes. And what is it? It's a compact that the people in the Mayflower come up with. Remember I said it wasn't great in high school? Yeah. But no, that's taught in Massachusetts schools also, that they get together and they come up with this document that founds the Mayflower colony. Is this it?

Yeah. It's a legal document that sort of sets out the rules. And only the men are allowed to sign it, of course, even though women are there. But Miles Standish is involved, isn't he? Yeah. This feels Standish-y. I'd say if there's one person that Americans know, it's Miles Standish.

Oh, really? So what do you know about Miles Standish? I know that he was a bit fanatical. I know that there are various things in Massachusetts that are named after him. I think that there's a statue of him somewhere and that there's a public school in a particularly bad part of Boston that I think is a Miles Standish elementary school,

but I could be wrong about that. Yeah, so he was a soldier who went on the trip to sort of make sure the stuff worked okay. And, and you know he has a sort of important role to play and it's John Carver who's now at this point elected governor isn't he? Yeah so again it's something that has to be improvised they sign it on the 11th of November 1620 and initially because they were supposed to be covered by the authority of the Virginia Company Charter but obviously they found themselves outside of Virginia. Do they know where they are?

They know where they are. And that's why they have to kind of on the spot come up with this compact that essentially is a social contract amongst themselves deciding how to govern. And they talk about bringing themselves together into a civil body politic. But as Greg said, it's only the adult males in the colony who are allowed to sign it. But it does include servants. And I think it's because of this reason that it's been viewed as being quite revolutionary as a new form of consensual government in the United States.

It's an interesting moment. And obviously they signed this on the ship, on the Mayflower itself. So who are the important people? There's Miles Standish. The soldier. You've got John Carver, the first governor. Then you've got Brewster, who's the sort of chief religious officer.

He's in charge of faith. Who's Christopher Martin? The front man for Coldplay. Are you thinking of a whole other thing? Yeah. Oh, my God. So Christopher Martin's in charge of sort of the expedition. He's like sort of head of logistics.

So he's been put in there to make sure that stuff goes well. It's quite fascinating, actually sure that stuff goes well. It's quite fascinating, actually, that there is this, they're like, hey, we're the religious crazies and we're the business people and we've combined two enterprises to make one enterprise. But outside of Jamestown, what's the story with other colonies at this time that aren't within the Virginia company?

Roanoke is the famous one. Yeah, so going back to 1585 is when Roanoke Island is settled. And that's obviously another failed venture. When the ships go back to resupply to England, they're prevented from returning because of the Spanish Armada in 1588. And then that leads to all the colonists kind of dispersing and being lost. But I guess around this time as well, people are trying to settle colonies in Newfoundland.

That's somewhere that they've always been going to fish for hundreds of years, but it's the first time they're trying to establish permanent settlements there as well. But in the 1610s, all of these settlements are facing the same issues of climate, poor relations with indigenous populations, sickness and starvation. Starting a new life in the colonies, it's very dangerous and not many people are very good at it. So it's a bit of a high-risk thing. And the first governor of the colony, John Carver, they elect him, they're like, OK, you're in charge. Chris Martin, you've already mentioned,

he's been in charge of the Speedwell, but the Speedwell sprung a leak, so he's been demoted a bit. So Chris Martin is there, he's singing his songs, he's playing his piano, he's having a nice time. But John Carver is the first governor and then he immediately just drops dead. Immediately? Like within three months, he's playing his piano, he's having a nice time. But John Carver is the first governor, and then he immediately just drops dead. Immediately? Like, within three months, he's, like, dead.

That's the next big issue, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, there's really high mortality rates in the settlement. He's dead within the first few months. I'm sorry, I'm just imagining this guy sick with some mysterious illness, and Mullins is like, does anyone need a pair of shoes? And they're like, no, we need medicine. Like, they open up a medicine cabinet, two more pairs of shoes fall out,

and Mullins is like, I'm sorry, I just love shoes so much. Well, Mullins also dies as well, so. Oh, good. Of what, a bunion? No, pretty serious illness, isn't it? So, T'Kava doesn't... Well, now I sound like an asshole.

I mean, they're really unwell. They've been on this horrible voyage and then they've arrived in this place. I mean, the first thing they do is they build a temporary shelter on Christmas Day. Yeah. So they're trying to build houses quickly

to actually give people somewhere to find shelter. Supplies are quickly depleting, so they're furiously trying to look for new foodstuffs, actually going and digging up Indian reserves of corn that have been buried for the winter months. Well, they're going to become really reliant on striking up good relations with the indigenous population in order to survive. Well, it's a shame because by Christmas, they've already missed Thanksgiving.

So they're missing out on that huge meal. That's Thomas Weston's fault again. They set off too late. They could have had a lovely Thanksgiving. So they're missing out on that huge meal. That's Thomas Weston's fault again. They set off too late. His fault. They could have had a lovely Thanksgiving. You mentioned the indigenous peoples. Other horrible thing that's been happening in that part of the world, three years before they arrive, is a devastating plague breaks out. And the particular tribe who are just wiped out, aren't they, is the Patuxet tribe.

Yes. Wait, so there are people in America before... Oh, what kind of education did you get? I mean, there was nobody. It was empty. And then the colonists showed up. And then it was full. And then there was no room for anybody else.

Yeah, there were intruders that came through Ellis Island. But wait, so there are actually other people before indigenous people. But the interesting thing is the people who have been living there had been devastated by a plague, hadn't they, from European settlers? Well, that's it. It's not the first time that they've had contact with Europeans because there have been Europeans fishing these waters. And it's from Europeans that they've caught plague.

And it's essentially wiped out about 90% of the population, the local population there. So wait, when we are taught the sort of interactions, the Wampanoag are always the ones that are referenced in relation to the Plymouth colony. And the good relations with the Wampanoag are always what gets talked about. That's the larger federation. And within that, there are several tribes. And closest to the settlers are the Patuxet tribe. Okay.

But they've been annihilated by disease. But there's like three of them left. It's awful. And one of them is called Samoset, who turns up and says, Hi. And the sort of settler's like, Oh, you speak English. And again, this is because they've had previous contact with European traders and fishermen that have come to this area.

So he greets the colonists in English in March 1621. And he tells them that the land used to be inhabited by the Patuxet tribe who've died of disease a few years earlier. And then in turn, he introduces them to another indigenous person named Tskwantum, also known as Squanto. Oh, wow. Okay, so there's some name recognition there. Yeah, this is genuinely high school stuff.

There are statues of Squanto everywhere. But Squanto is the icon of the friendly Native American in the Thanksgiving stories and in the cartoons and everything that children are taught. Squanto is probably the most recognizable name. Alongside Pocahontas. Yeah. But isn't that the Jamestown colony?

Yeah, she's in the Jamestown colony. But I mean, for this Plymouth Rock story Squanto is to the point that I even have a voice in my head Not like now, I just mean whoever did voice over for portraying Squanto in whatever cartoon I saw as a kid And 1619 is also another very very

important year in American history because it's also the year in which African enslaved people are first brought to America by European settlers, so not only is it the year where the Patuxet tribe are wiped out, basically, but it's also the year in which slavery is introduced into America as an economic system. This is really the high weather mark for absolute shittery by colonizers. Absolutely.

So, Alex, you've heard of Squanto or Tisquantum. Yes. His story is also really interesting because not only did he greet them and say, you know, hi, I'm an interpreter, I can chat to you, but he'd been in Europe. He'd been captured.

He'd been enslaved. He'd been taken to Spain. He'd ended up in London, hadn't he? Was he displayed there as a sort of like... Yeah, to a certain extent he was a bit, wasn't he? He was sort of a bit

of an exotic marvel from the New World. Yeah, so he's in the household of John Slaney, who was actually an early governor of St. John's in Newfoundland. So he also has his own background and interests in colonisation. And Squanto is one of a number of individuals in this period who are being captured and being brought to England and either taught English so that they can act as interpreters and diplomatic go-betweens. But like you said, also sometimes being on display as these spectacles in London and elsewhere. So he learns English and then he makes his way back to New England in 1619 on a voyage with the English explorer Thomas Derner.

And it's later that obviously he has his encounter with the Puritan settlers in Plymouth. Is he well respected then or is he treated as subhuman? the Puritan settlers in Plymouth. Is he well respected then or is he treated as subhuman? I think something that's important to recognise at this time, Europeans' approaches to indigenous people largely concerns religion and the idea that these people are not civilised because they're not Christianised. Sure. And interestingly enough, a former guest on the show, Caroline Dodds-Pennock,

who's our Aztec expert, is writing a book about indigenous peoples coming to Europe. Oh, that's fascinating. So this is a fascinating bit of history that historians are really working on right now to try and understand these stories better. One of the things that Squanto does is negotiates on behalf of the settlers with the local big tribal chief, the guy who's kind of running the show for the indigenous peoples, whose name is Massasoit. And he's an interesting guy as well. He sort of turns up and goes, yeah, okay, we can do a deal. But there is presumably a bit of tension there because these people have arrived from across the sea.

There must be a bit of a threat of violence as well. Yeah, and I think also they will be familiar with the stories that would be travelling up from places like Virginia, that they know that English people are settling in these places. But it's important for the English to broker good relations with the indigenous population if they're going to survive. Edward Winslow takes with him gifts of knives and food to pay tribute to this king. Yeah, here's what we've got.

We've got shoes. Do you want shoes? No. All right. Knives. What if that's the genius twist at the end of this? They're like, we will feed you for a year if but only if you have exactly 139,000 shoes and they're and Mullins is like see I told you it was gonna come in handy you're all

laughing when I pack these pumps but I knew that they were gonna want a high heel or a sensible wedge at some point so they're doing a deal with the indigenous peoples which means that for the first time they're like we've kind of got a settlement going now here. They've built some buildings, but they start dying really fast. So their plan is they're going to build something like 19 houses. They end up only building like six or something like that. They really don't need the space anymore

because so many of them have just died. Yeah, they're being wiped out by pneumonia, dysentery, scurvy. There's food shortages. They're actually in a real position of vulnerability and are actually very reliant on being able to broker good relations with the indigenous peoples so that they can trade for food. They've arrived too late in the year to be able to plant anything because the ground is frozen in November.

So they're only going to survive this first winter if they're able to get corn from the indigenous population. Which they steal sometimes, don't they? Yeah. I mean, they don't ask for it initially. They nick it. Yeah, they steal. They're plundering graves as well to see what they can find of the people who have died from plague and been buried.

They're not chomping on those things, right? They're not eating. You know, I think what's quite surprising is that they don't seem to have learned any of the lessons of Jamestown where the exact same thing happens. They don't know how to plant corn. They're relying on, yes, stealing corn from the indigenous people who themselves are suffering food shortages because of weather and droughts and things like that. And actually in Jamestown, they do turn towards cannibalism. I mean, whether it happens in New England, we don't know. But there might have been a bit of shoe eating going on if people were really hungry. I'd rather eat shoes than

people, I think. So, you know, no one ever mentions cannibalism when you talk about the Mayflower. It's not very heroic, is it? No, it's not. And there's no evidence for that. But I guess it's just important to sort of underline that they're really facing these challenges of both the climate, but also the lack of supplies as well. And they also are failing to make money with fish and furs like they've been sent out there to make money i mean it's disaster yeah so the merchant adventurers back in london are like um where's our fish and furs yeah and you're not going to do that with a sick population either that's one of the real issues that you know you need a healthy labor force if you if you're going to achieve these things and several of the women have died as well so you're not also going to have children

being born so the whole colony is failing very very badly and then the merchant adventurers are like right we'll have our ship back then so the Mayflower gets sent home. Yeah so in April 1621 the Mayflower returns to England with no cargo no return return on their investment, and they're very disappointed. And several years later, way into the late 1620s, the settlers are still paying back these debts. I have a question. This may become evident later on. Why is this such an important part of America's founding myth at this point?

Because right now, it basically seems like a Titanic with no iceberg situation. Where like, Transatlantic Crossing, that was a disaster for everybody involved. Is there going to be a silver lining at any point here? I keep waiting for the beat to drop and there's genuinely nothing to sink my teeth into at this point.

Tommy Squanto is basically a negotiator and that's all I've got. Well, there's Thanksgiving. Great. Tell me about Thanksgiving, guys. What do you know about Thanksgiving? Okay, so the Pilgrims play the first game of American football. They split between two teams.

One team is the Pilgrims. The other team is the Detroit Lions, because it's always the Detroit Lions on Thanksgiving. They play a game in front of 38,000. No, here's what I know. I know that there's a big table with lots of dishes, including turkey, in the cartoon version. But in the reality, it's probably like a treaty between the Wampanoag and the pilgrims that enable the pilgrims to live for a little while. In my head, it's sort of that scene from The Addams Family Values. What do we know about the real Thanksgiving?

Because William Bradford, who's the first historian, the first big proper governor, he's the second governor. He doesn't even mention it in his history. No, I mean, it's something I think we can definitely overstate the importance that it had at the time for the settlers. This first Thanksgiving marks the first harvest. And obviously Thanksgiving is a term that contemporaries would have understood as being, you know, giving thanks to God for his his blessings and it could be a day of celebration as well but it's

really not until the 19th century that it starts to take on this you know kind of mythical thing yeah like a lot of things surrounding the mayflower story but yes it is a shared meal with the indigenous population and i think it really underlines the cooperation and indigenous knowledge that has contributed to their survival during that first year. They have helped them plant food and become familiar with the environment and the foodstuff that is going to help them. And they are rewarded with violence and genocide.

Yes. Because apparently there are a bunch of friendly Native Americans and then there's an unfriendly Native American and a big conflict starts. There is violence and I think William Bradford beheads one of the chiefs, puts the head on a spike. And then I think on his wedding day, he put the bloody clothes of the chief on display

as a sort of ceremonial like, hey, it's my wedding day. Here's a guy I killed. So he is not friendly. Well, no. This is our foundation myth. Growing up, a common boast in Boston is that someone said, well, my descendants came over on the Mayflower. Like, yeah, we're quite proud of their lineage and they are seen by other Americans as the original Americans. It's like saying I am the most British.

They are seen actually as the founders of America truly. And the founding fathers would reference the Mayflower from time to time. Do you know how many people now claim descent from the Mayflower colonists? How many? 30 million. And how many of them realistically... Well, that's the harder thing to prove, isn't it?

But it's certainly, there's a lot of people who can trace their family back against that length, but the reason they can is because they were supported by the indigenous peoples who were then wiped out. So it's one of the stories that has a nasty twist in it. What's interesting is in 1621, things are going very badly, but the Desquantum and Massasoit have helped them out.

The colonists also get a little bit of relief because Thomas Weston, the useless Thomas Weston, who's been so crap at organising things, sends out a couple more ships, I think it might even be three ships, with more colonists on them. But none of them are Puritans. There's no more religious people turning up with Bibles. These people are coming to make money. They are coming out there to start a new life.

So the religious foundation of the Mayfair colony is kind of just forgotten. This now becomes a kind of trade thing. Yeah, and I think the New England colonies become known for production and agricultural production and the settlement of families. And in that way, it's always kind of distinguished, I guess, from the colonies that we see sprouting up in the Chesapeake region at this time that are involved in intensive production of things like tobacco. But they do start to begin turning a profit through trade, although it's kind of slow. Yeah. And then the English go to war against the Spanish and it causes a shortage of beaver fur hats, which of course, as we all know, is the vital commodity that you need in a wartime. Genuinely, the thing about the Puritans and the merchants teaming up is fascinating because it

does make sense that this colonial enterprise needed backing that's fueled both by fanaticism and some economic interest. The story of America is basically faith and commerce going hand in hand from the very beginning. Yeah, I mean, it's an argument that the Virginia Company has to make as well, because I guess they have to show that there's a public good or something moral underlining all of these ventures. But of course, it needs to have a commercial element if it's going to be viable as well. If you're going to create a new society, you've got to make money somehow. It's funny because sometimes when I think of colonialism or the colonial elements of Americans settling the country, whether it's the Wild West or this, I always think it speaks to this value of rapaciousness that totally characterizes this American ideal, which is that if we see a wilderness, we want to take it.

If we see a grass growing, we want to put a mall next to a canyon. We want to put a motel up in a great plain in the middle of somewhere. And it's the colonizing instinct that's still uniquely American. If it's anything else, the destruction of anything in the pursuit of happiness is the distinctly American characteristic, which informs, in some ways, a really intrepid nature that has led to some exciting things and got us from the automobile to the moon in like 60-something years,

but also has led to genocide and a lack of preservation instinct. And it's so interesting to hear this, because it does feel like a very American story. I'm just going to read a quote, actually, from Julia M marden who's a member of the wampanoag tribe and she said that she hopes the commemoration of the mayflower because it's the 400th anniversary will remind people that the wampanoag and other native americans still exist and if we're not living in a teepee or riding a horse on the plains we're not recognizable but we're your neighbors we are your co-workers we go to school with you as you say it's an american story it's a foundation myth

but it's also the story of how a country was essentially taken away from people who were already living there. But I think that brings us on to my favourite part of the show, which is called the nuance window. The nuance window! This is where, Alex, you and I, we go silent for two minutes and our expert, Misha, does a mini lecture on what she thinks we need to hear. So I'm going to get my stopwatch up. Without much further ado, Misha, the nuance window, please. So I actually want to draw on this idea that you've already raised about Mayflower as being the origin story of the United States.

And instead think about Jamestown, which is settled in 1607 and is actually the first permanent settlement in the United States. And why perhaps that hasn't gained the same kind of, I guess, recognition and doesn't have the same mythology around it as Mayflower and Plymouth does. I think the grounds on which Plymouth is sometimes preferred over Jamestown is because Jamestown is actually a very grisly and uncomfortable origin story. The early years are marked by famine and drought and war with the local indigenous population. And this culminates in the starving time during the winter of 1609 to 10, when the colonists are trapped in the fort. They're resorting to eating rats and even shoe leather. And there are also signs of cannibalism. so this is both in the written

sources and it's actually backed up by archaeological evidence as well so one artifact that scholars have found there is the skull of a young adolescent woman and it shows signs that her skull had actually been butchered for meat. Out of 240 settlers only 60 are actually alive at the end of this winter. And I think also that whereas the Mayflower is set up as this search for freedom, Jamestown, by contrast, is viewed as this profit-seeking disaster. Another dimension to the history of early America, of course, is slavery. And as Greg mentioned, the first enslaved Africans arrive in 1619. And I think this really contrasts again with this idea

that the founding of America is founded on freedom. Instead, it's always entangled with this very uncomfortable history of slavery as well. Thank you so much. So what do you know now? It's been a fascinating episode. Funny in places and in other places, you know, quite difficult. Genocidal?

Genocidal? Genocidal. Sorry. But it's now time for the quiz where we test Alex to see what he has learned from today. It's called the So What Do You Know Now? This is 10 questions. I'm going to get my stopwatch up again. You've got 60 seconds.

I believe in you, Alex. Okay. I have faith in you. Okay. Are you ready? Yes. Okay, here we go. The Mayflower set sail from where?

They set sail from Plymouth. They did, and it was the second time they'd set sail. Yes, because of the speedwell leaking. Absolutely. Second question, what was the name of the ship that didn't set sail? The speedwell. There you go, straight in. Third question, what did the Puritans mean by saints?

Anyone who was them. Like the people on the boat, the Puritans themselves, those who were sailing. But what was it about them in terms of going to heaven? They were slightly aesthetic? No, they were predestined to go to heaven. Oh yeah, sorry, that's right.

William Mullins took a giant collection of what to the New World? Shoes. Shoes. What was the Mayflower Compact? Improvised document establishing the colony.

Yes. What was the name of the first baby born on the Mayflower? Oceanus. Yes. Who was the main interpreter between the English colonists and the War Pornologists? Squanto is correct. What was the name of the first baby born on the Mayflower? Oceanus. Yes. Who was the main interpreter between the English colonists and the Wampanoag? Squanto.

Squanto is correct. What was the name of the tribe who had died of disease a couple of years before the colonists died? The Patuxet. Absolutely. What food did the colonists steal when they arrived? Corn. Corn is correct. And 5th of April 1621, what happened to the Mayflower? 5th of April 1621

returned with no provisions, empty of cargo. Absolutely. You have got nine out of ten. Very impressive. I can't believe I forgot the predestination. You always forget predestination, huh? I said earlier that it wasn't a Jewish value. It's not.

Nine out of ten is very good, don't worry. You've done very well there. All right, well, we have come to the end of the podcast. I hope you at home have learned a bunch of new stuff. Alex, do you feel you've learned some stuff that you didn't want to know or you've enjoyed it? No, I mean, like, this is something that's perhaps overdue, and I think because it's taught to quite young children quite early,

it's very, very whitewashed, no pun intended or maybe intended, because it's something that's one of the founding myths of America. So, of course, nobody questions, you know uh not getting into the dark aspects of it i think it's actually very important and i i wish there was a way that children could be taught this in a responsible fashion in the united states because i think it might create more uh empathy given that seems like the indigenous people were treated quite unfairly for probably the last time by Americans. Yeah, about that. That's a whole other podcast.

Well, it is the 400th anniversary as well, so have a look on the internet. There's some things going on around, I think, the UK. Anyway, if you've enjoyed today's podcast, please do share it with your friends or leave a review online and make sure to subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds so you never miss an episode. If you can't wait for your fix, go and listen to the previous episodes, ones you might have already heard, ones you might have missed.

If you want some more sailing stuff, we've got a Blackbeard episode, which is a lot of fun. But for now, let me say a huge thank you to our wonderful guests. In History Corner, Dr Misha Ewan, University of Manchester. Thank you, Misha. Thank you. And in Comedy Corner, Alex Edelman, all the way from over the Atlantic. Can I plug my BBC Sounds show, Peer Group, if you haven't heard it? Absolutely can. It's very funny and very interesting because you're the voice of millennials.

I am. I'm the only millennial. That's a really interesting thing. I'm one of four millennials. And the other three died, tragically. Yeah, the other three died of scurvy. They ate the wrong kind of avocado toast. Thank you so much, Alex. And to you, dear listeners, join me next time for some more completely different history. Hopefully fun.

Maybe less depressing. We'll see. But for now, I'm off to go and watch Pocahontas and point at the things that are wrong and go, no, that didn't happen. Anyway, until next time. Bye. You're Dead to Me was a Money Needs Media production

for BBC Radio 4. The researcher was Olivia Croyle, the script was by Emin The Goose, the project manager was Isla Matthews and the producer was Cornelius Mendes. Hi everyone, Russell Cain here. I've got just a few seconds to tell you about Evil Genius, our hit podcast, 2.5 million downloads in 2019, top 10, where we take people from history, Gandhi, Margaret Thatcher, John Lennon, and detonate fact bombs around their reputations.

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