You're Dead to Me - The Mayflower (Radio Edit)

Episode Date: December 12, 2020

Greg Jenner is joined by historian Dr Misha Ewen and comedian Alex Edelman to take a trip back in time and across the Atlantic with the passengers of The Mayflower. A Muddy Knees Media production for BBC Radio 4.

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon Pull Apart, only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey and just five bucks for the small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. All day long.

Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. Hiya, Greg here. Hope you're doing all right. We are making Series 3 right now. In the meantime, we've been making these Radio 4 versions of the previous episodes. We are putting them in the feed here permanently. They will be alongside the long versions. So make sure you scroll down and choose which version you want.

So you can have the shorter, punchier, swear-free versions or the long, rambling, sweary versions. So make sure you scroll down and choose which version you want. So you can have the shorter, punchier, swear-free versions or the long, rambling, sweary versions. Up to you. Thanks very much for listening. Take care. Bye. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the history podcast for everyone. For people who don't like history, people who do like history and people who forgot to learn any at school my name is greg jenner i'm a public historian author and broadcaster and i'm the chief nerd on the bbc comedy show horrible histories you might also have heard my radio 4 series homeschool history although that one's

for the kids this podcast navigates the murky waters of the past using facts and giggles as our map and compass. And today we are packing our bags and setting sail for the new world. That's right, we're venturing back exactly 400 years to 1620 and climbing aboard the Mayflower, the ship that carried the first English colonists to America. And to help me do that, I'm joined by two very special guests. In History Corner, she is a Halsworth Research Fellow at the University of Manchester and an expert on the social and economic history of the early modern Atlantic world. It's Dr Misha Ewan. Hi Misha, thank you for coming.

Hello, thanks for the invitation. It's great to be here. It's good to have you. And in Comedy Corner, he's a comedian and writer, one of the few Americans to win Best Newcomer at the 2014 Edinburgh Fringe Festival and then return with the best reviewed show of 2018. He's been on Live at the Apollo, Live at the BBC, Roast Battle. He's the host of Alex Edelman's peer group on Radio 4, which sort of gives away

his name, really. He's come all the way from the Atlantic Ocean to come and get back on a boat and go all the way across the Atlantic Ocean again. It is Alex Edelman. Hi, Alex. How are you? I'm less excited to be here than Misha, but I'm also excited to be here. When I say the Mayflower toflower to you you're an american does your head fill with patriotic images of men in the sort of weird broad beam hats yes i think of hats with a buckle on them yeah you know i grew up in massachusetts and so the mayflower landing at plymouth rock was

but it was one of those things where people were like everything you know about this is wrong you know what i mean where people be like as soon you know about this is wrong, you know what I mean? Where people will be like, as soon as you said something, you were immediately disabused of the notion by your friends and peers. You're going to enjoy this podcast because that's what we do here. We disabuse you of all of your opinions. What fun. Not pedantic at all. So, what do you know? We begin with the, so what do you know? And this is where I have a go at guessing what you at home might know about today's subject.

And I think you've probably heard of the Mayflower. It's kind of iconic. I mean, it's not really that well known as a story, though, because in pop culture, all you kind of get is you get it's a ship that carries the so-called Pilgrim Fathers across the Atlantic from Plymouth in England to the New World or North America, which is slightly less exciting name. And in pop culture, there is not much to look for, actually. We had a look on IMDb and you've basically got a sort of random made-for-TV thing. And they're cartoons in the States, usually. They're usually cartoons.

It is. The Simpsons has done it, but there's an Anthony Hopkins thing that's not great. But apart from that, no one's done a movie. I'm not guessing anyone at home is particularly clued up on this one, but it is the 400th anniversary and that is a big, big moment and there's lots of stuff going on this year. So we thought we would try and get into ship shape and get to understand the history of colonialism and how America came to be. So let's crack on. What is a Puritan? What are we talking about here? These people, they are religious, but like how religious?

So the Puritans are a radical branch of Protestantism in England at this time. They don't believe that the Reformation in England has gone far enough. So they want to see all of these Catholic elements stripped from the church in terms of traditions and practices. Which means like no stained glass windows, no kneeling while you pray, nothing not in the Bible. Yeah, nothing like making the sign of the cross as well. So they're really focused on scripture. And if it isn't in scripture, then they see it as unnecessary and things that can be done away with. They're also not fans of Episcopal government as well. So they believe that congregations should be able to lead themselves and have a much more direct relationship

with God. And in part, that comes from their focus on reading the scripture in English and believing that they can interpret for themselves what the Bible says and not needing other people to kind of act as intermediaries between them and God. They have been persecuted in England, really. I mean, Elizabeth I had been pretty brutal. James I says, no, you're not allowed to practice your faith. So they essentially are trying to escape from England. Alex, do you know where they go? Do they go? Do they go to Plymouth Rock in Massachusetts? Eventually.

Oh, sure. They go somewhere first. They go to the Netherlands. It seems like people sailing for America were just folks who couldn't read a GPS correctly. While they're there, they're already planning their exit. But they are there for a long time. Yeah, most of them end up kind of working in menial trades in the cloth industry. So working in factories and, yeah, really struggling to get by living in quite cramped conditions. And I think after a time, they kind of start to look to kind of different

horizons. I mean, they're living in Leiden for over a decade, but they for them, it's a bit too chill. I mean, they're allowed to practice their religion, but the Dutch are relaxed and groovy. And they're like, this isn't hardcore enough for us. And also, they've started to have kids and the kids are growing up a bit sort of relaxed and Dutch. And they're like, this isn't hardcore enough for us. And also they've started to have kids and the kids are growing up a bit sort of relaxed and Dutch. And they're like, you're not serious enough about religion. You need to be less clock dancing and weed and more praying and being a saint. So that's when they're thinking America.

But also they don't know how to get to the States because they don't have an in with the businessman, the merchant adventurers, which is a great name. When we say they, is there like a guy in charge? Is there a thought leader for the, is there an Instagram influencer for these Puritans? There are a couple, aren't there, Misha? So individuals like John Carver, I mean, he's selected to be the governor of the Puritans when they're aboard ship before they make landfall in Cape Cod.

Other individuals like Robert Cushman, who are there kind of trying to broker authority with the Crown to actually allow them to go and settle in the States. So they're constantly going back and forth between Leiden and London to try and establish whether or not they'll actually be able to go to the New World and set up a colony there. And also to try and garner investment from these merchants as well. There's also William Brewster, who's sort of their chief religious dude, the head of the church almost, isn't he? Yeah. And Brewster also has a very sort of direct role in brokering what's going to happen with the Virginia Company. So initially, they go to the Virginia Company to try and get permission from them to settle within the bounds of the Virginia Company charter. But that also kind of goes a bit amiss. But yeah, Brewster has a very key role in that. So they don't know how to get to the Americas and then they meet this guy called

Thomas Weston. He's a sort of middleman who tries to organise the Mayflower expedition but he's not very good at it and he's never really done it before and so they spend ages trying to get the ships ready and the food ready and the supplies ready. I mean this drags on for quite a few years doesn't it? I mean they first start trying to set this up in 1617 and it's not until 1619 that they actually manage to set sail. Partly this is because investment falls through, because people learn that actually they're quite extreme and it's perhaps a bit displeasing to King James to be investing money in this group.

And eventually they have to turn to other means of investment. Which don't go very well for them. No. You said that like it was a euphemism. What are the other means of investment? Are they selling organs on the black market? Well, initially, we have some investment from kind of noblemen and people at court. But then when that doesn't work out, that's why then we turn to the merchant adventurers.

And they are awkward. No one wants them. The Dutch will put up with them. And these people don't really want to be in England. So everyone's like, fine, Alex. Yes. You're moving to a new continent, a new world. What are you going to pack? to put up with them and these people don't really want to be in England so everyone's like fine Alex yes you're moving to a new continent

a new world what are you going to pack where is this continent this continent's America and I'm a Dutch Brit you're a Dutch Brit so if I'm Brutch

I'm packing my biggest buckle hat my finest well now I'm like well now I kind of get where the buckle hat comes from

it's Dutchy well the buckle hat Comes from It's dutchy Well the buckle hat Is sort of a myth As well actually Yeah I figured That it might be a myth Greg Sorry

I figured that the cartoon That I saw when I was nine About the Mayflower May not be perfectly accurate Do you want to know What William Mullins packed? Let me guess 16 pounds of venison

That would have been useful 45 bibles to throw at people no he packed 139 pairs of shoes oh man mel de marcos over here baby he was a shoemaker it was his business he got out there and he was like hey who wants to buy shoes and everyone was like uh not right now william we're kind of dying of starvation he had 139 pairs of shoes he did yeah so thomas weston who's been trying to be the middleman and sort this all out, he is taking ages getting hold of a ship for them. So they're meant to be setting off in the spring.

You leave in the spring, and you arrive in the summer, and you work out what you're doing. He turns up in August and says, Hey, I've got a ship for you. It's called the Speedwell. That sounds way better than the Mayflower. It sounds pretty good, doesn't it? So they all get on the Speedwell, and it immediately starts taking on water.

Immediately? Immediately. When you say immediately, like immediately, immediately? I mean, like, literally, as it's leaving the harbor, they're like, this ship is sinking. And they head back to port and go, well, that didn't go well. And Thomas Weston's like, oh, I'm so sorry. That's never happened before. He's like, have you done this before?

He's like, no. We're lilting slightly to the left. And Thomas Weston's like, oh, shoot, that's where my shoe closet is. So they're meant to be taking two ships. So I did, I was a bit naughty there because they did take the Mayflower as well. They're meant to be taking two ships

and the Mayflower is the much bigger ship. The Speedwell is a smaller ship. The plan is, Speedwell will be a fishing ship because they're doing a deal with these guys, the Merchant Adventurers. The Merchant Adventurers!

Sorry, I can't help it. They're meant to be taking this ship out to then be a fishing ship, but the Speedwell immediately just like springs a leak and they're like, oh, okay. it they're meant to be taking this ship out to then be a fishing ship but the speed well immediately just like springs a leak and they're like oh okay

so they go back to port and they're there for like a few weeks again aren't they and then it's too late to go yeah time is ticking and then what they do instead is squeeze

everyone onto the Mayflower yeah like ten people decide not to go like a few people are like you know what I'm not doing this this guy's an idiot

this ship looks a bit ropey I'm not getting on this boat. How long does it take to get from one side of the Atlantic to the other without outboard motors or any sort of... In a sailboat, minimum six weeks. Minimum six weeks? Minimum, yeah. Are you kidding me?

Benjamin Franklin, when he used to come across to be the ambassador to Europe, he would often spend seven or eight weeks at sea. What? That's such a bad idea. Yeah. So they're setting off in August. Then they spring a leak. They turn back around. So their second voyage is the Mayflower voyage.

The famous voyage is September. And they're leaving way late, way, way late, because they're not going to get to the New World until winter, aren't they? How big is the Atlantic? I'm not past this. How big is it? It's no bigger than the width of my thumb on a globe. The distance between America and Britain when you're sailing is 2,725 miles.

That's a lot of sea. It's too much sea. So these people cram on and there are 102 people who are going to the New World, only like half of which are the Puritans. And then you've got the strangers. Yeah, so they're made up of about five families and they're called strangers because they're not Puritans. They're seen as being kind of a bit other.

It's so funny. You got a ship with the Puritans. They're like, hey, you guys, we're going to call you the weirdos. They're like, oh, okay, radical Protestants. We'll be the weirdos on the ship. There's also about a fifth of the people aboard the ship are indentured servants as well. So they're people who are going to be labouring in the colony for a fixed term.

And there are four pregnant women and even a couple of dogs aboard the ship. Always need a dog. Yeah. So you can imagine it's just quite chaotic. Young people, old people, and it's really cramped in there as well. Really cramped, damp conditions. People are getting sick, suffering from scurvy. And later, Edward Winslow actually recommends that they should be bringing aboard lemon juice. He doesn't quite know about scurvy as we would understand it today,

but he knows that that's something that will be beneficial for the passengers. So the journey took 66 days, which is a long old time. You can imagine as well, I think the mental state that these people would have been in, being confined and cramped in those conditions and probably feeling quite homesick as well. And I think it's something that does take a toil on some of the passengers. And so they arrive the 11th of November, winter, not great,

but they then immediately go, oh, we need to invent a government. Have you ever heard of the Mayflower Compact? Yes, I have. Yes, and what is it? It's a compact that the people in the Mayflower come up with. But no, that's taught in Massachusetts schools also, that they get together and they come up with this document

that founds the Mayflower colony. Is this it? Yeah. It's a legal document that sort of sets out the rules. And only the men are allowed to sign it, even though women are there. But Miles Standish is involved, isn't he? Yeah.

This feels Standish-y. I'd say if there's one person that Americans know, it's Miles Standish. Yeah, so he was a soldier who went on the trip to sort of make sure the stuff worked okay and you know he has a sort of important role to play and it's John Carver who's now at this point elected governor isn't he?

Yeah so again it's something that has to be improvised. They sign it on the 11th of November 1620 and initially because they were supposed to be covered by the authority of the Virginia Company Charter but obviously they found themselves outside of Virginia. Do they know where they are?

They know where they are. And that's why they have to kind of on the spot come up with this compact that essentially is a social contract amongst themselves deciding how to govern. And they talk about bringing themselves together into a civil body politic. But as Greg said, it's only the adult males in the colony who are allowed to sign it. But it does include servants, and I think it's because of this reason that it's been viewed as being quite revolutionary as a new form of consensual government in the United

States. It's an interesting moment, and obviously they sign this on the ship, on the Mayflower itself. So who are the important people? There's Miles Standish, the soldier, and you've got John Carver, the first governor. Then you've got Brewster, who's the sort of

chief religious officer. He's in charge of faith. Who's Christopher Martin? The front man for Coldplay. Are you thinking of a whole other thing? Yeah. Oh my God.

So Christopher Martin is in charge of sort of the expedition. He's like sort of head of logistics. So he's been put in there to make sure that stuff goes well.

It's quite fascinating, actually, that there is this, they're like, hey, we're the religious crazies and we're the business people and we've combined two enterprises to make one. Starting a new life in the colonies, it's very dangerous and not many people are very good at it. So it's a bit of a high-risk thing. And the first governor of the colony, John Carver,

they elect him, they're like, okay, you're in charge. Chris Martin, you've already mentioned, he's been in charge of the Speedwell, but the in charge Chris Martin you've already mentioned he's been in charge of the Speedwell but the Speedwell sprung a leak so he's been demoted a bit so Chris Martin is there

he's singing his songs he's playing his piano he's having a nice time but John Carver is the first governor and then he immediately just drops dead immediately

like within three months he's like dead that's the next big issue isn't it yeah I mean there's really high mortality rates in the settlement he's dead within the first? Yeah, I mean, there's really high mortality rates in the settlement.

He's dead within the first few months. I'm sorry, I'm just imagining this guy sick with some mysterious illness and Mullins is like, does anyone need a pair of shoes? And they're like, no, we need medicine. Like, they open up a medicine cabinet, two more pairs of shoes fall out, and Mullins is like, I'm sorry, I just love shoes so much. Well, Mullins also dies as well. Oh, good.

I've white a bunion. I mean, they're really unwell. They've been on this horrible voyage and they've arrived in this place. I mean, the first thing they do is they build a temporary shelter on Christmas Day. Yeah. So they're trying to build houses quickly to actually give people somewhere to find shelter. Supplies are quickly depleting.

So they're furiously trying to look for new foodstuffs, actually going and digging up Indian reserves of corn that have been buried for the winter months. Well, they're going to become really reliant on striking up good relations with the indigenous population in order to survive. Well, it's a shame because by Christmas, they've already missed Thanksgiving. So there's no... So they're missing out on that huge meal.

That's Thomas Weston's fault again. They set off too late. His fault. They could have had a lovely Thanksgiving. You mentioned the indigenous peoples. Other horrible thing that's been happening in that part of the world, three years before they arrive, is a devastating plague breaks out. And the particular tribe who are just wiped out, aren't they, is the Patuxet tribe.

Yes. Wait, so there are people in america before oh what kind of education did you get i mean there was nobody it was empty and then and then the colonists showed up yeah and then it was fall no and then there was no room for anybody else but wait so there are other there are actually other people before yeah yeah indigenous people but the interesting thing is the people who have been living there had been devastated by a plague, hadn't they, from European settlers? Well, that's it. It's not the first time that they've had contact with Europeans because there have been Europeans fishing these waters.

And it's from Europeans that they've caught plague. And it's essentially wiped out about 90% of the population, Oh my gosh. The local population there. So wait, when we are taught the sort of interactions, the Wampanoag are always the ones that are referenced in relation to the Plymouth colony. The good relations with the Wampanoag are always what gets talked about. That's the larger federation. And within that, there are several tribes.

And closest to the settlers are the Patuxet tribe. Okay. But they've been annihilated by disease. There's like three of them left. It's awful. And one of them is called Samoset, who turns up and says, Hi. And the sort of settler's like, Oh, you speak English.

And again, this is because they've had previous contact with European traders and fishermen that have come to this area. So he greets the colonists in English in March 1621. And he tells them that the land used to be inhabited by the Patuxet tribe who died of disease a few years earlier. And then in turn, he introduces them to another indigenous person named Tisquantum, also known as Squanto. Oh, wow. OK, so there's some name recognition there. Yeah. Squanto is probably the most recognizable name.

Alongside Pocahontas. Yeah. But isn't that the Jamestown colony? Yeah, she's in the Jamestown colony. But I mean, for this Plymouth Rock story, Squanto is to the point that I even have a voice in my head. Not like now. I just mean whoever did voiceover for portraying Squanto in whatever cartoon I saw as a kid. His story is also really interesting because not only did he greet them and say, you know, hi, I'm an interpreter.

I can I can chat to you. But he'd been in Europe. He'd been captured. He'd been enslaved. He'd been taken to Spain. He'd ended up in London. And Squanto is one of a number of individuals in this period who are being captured and being brought to England and either taught English so that they can act as interpreters and diplomatic go-betweens, but also sometimes being on display as these spectacles in London and elsewhere. So he learns English and then he makes his way back to New England in 1619 on a voyage with the English explorer Thomas Derner, and it's later that obviously he has his encounter with the Puritan settlers in Plymouth. One of the things that Squanto does is negotiates on behalf of the settlers with the local big tribal chief,

the guy who's kind of running the show for the indigenous peoples, whose name is Massasoit. And he's an interesting guy as well. He sort of turns up and goes, yeah, OK, we can do a deal. But there is presumably a bit of tension there because these people have arrived from across the sea. There must be a bit of a threat of violence as well. Yeah, and I think also they will be familiar with the stories that would be travelling up from places like Virginia, that they know that English people are settling in these places. But it's important for the English to broker good relations

with the indigenous population if they're going to survive. Edward Winslow takes with him gifts of knives and food to pay tribute to this king. Yeah, here's what we've got. We've got shoes. Do you want shoes? No. All right. Knives. What if that's the genius twist at the end of this? They're like, we will feed you for a year if, but only if, you have exactly 139,000 shoes. And Mullins is like, see, I told you it was going to come in handy. So they're doing a deal with the indigenous peoples, which means that for the first time, they're like, we've kind of got a settlement going now here.

They've built some buildings, but they start dying really fast. So their plan is they're going to build something like 19 houses, and they end up only building like six or something like that. They really don't need the space anymore because so many of them have just died. Jeez. Yeah, they're being wiped out by pneumonia, dysentery, scurvy. There's food shortages. They're actually in a real position of vulnerability

and are actually very reliant on being able to broker good relations with the indigenous peoples so that they can trade for food. They've arrived too late in the year to be able to plant anything because the ground is frozen in november so they're only going to survive this first winter if they're able to get corn from the indigenous population which they steal sometimes don't they yeah i mean they don't ask for it initially they nick it yeah they steal they're plundering graves as well to see what they can find and they also are failing to make money with fish and furs. Like, they've been sent out there to make money.

I mean, it's a disaster. Yeah. So the merchant adventurers back in London are like, where's our fish and furs? Yeah. And you're not going to do that with a sick population either. So the whole colony is failing very, very badly. And then the merchant adventurers are like,

right, we'll have our ship back then. Yeah. So the Mayflower gets sent home. Yeah. So in April 1621, the Mayflower returns to England with no cargo, no return on their investment. And they're very disappointed. And several years later, way into the late 1620s, the settlers are still paying back these debts. I have a question. This may become evident later on.

Why is this such an important part of america's founding myth at this point because right now it basically seems like a titanic with no iceberg situation where like a transatlantic crossing that was a disaster for everybody involved is there going to be a silver lining at any point here well there's thanksgiving great tell me about thanksgiving guys what do you know about thanksgiving so okay so the pilgrims play the first game of american football they split between two teams one of the team is the pilgrims the other team is the detroit lions because it's always the detroit lions on thanksgiving they play a game in front of 38 000 no here's what i know i

know that there's a big table with lots of dishes, including turkey, in the cartoon version. But in the reality, it's probably like a treaty between the Wampanoag and the pilgrims that enable the pilgrims to live for a little while. In my head, it's sort of that scene from the Adam's Family Values. What do we know about the real Thanksgiving? Because William Bradford, who's the first historian, the first big proper governor proper governor he's the second governor he doesn't even mention it in his history no i mean it's something i think we can definitely overstate the importance that it had at the time for the settlers this first thanksgiving marks the first harvest and obviously thanksgiving is a term that contemporaries would have understood as being you know giving thanks to god for his blessings and it

could be a day of celebration as well but it's really not until the 19th century that it starts to take on this, you know, kind of mythical thing. Yeah, like a lot of things surrounding the Mayflower story. But yes, it is a shared meal with the indigenous population. And I think it really underlines the cooperation and indigenous knowledge that has contributed to their survival during that first year. They have helped them plant food and become familiar with the environment and the foodstuff that is going to help them. And they are rewarded with violence and genocide.

Yes. Because apparently there are a bunch of friendly Native Americans and then there's an unfriendly Native American and a big conflict starts. There is violence and I think William Bradford beheads one of the chiefs, puts the head on a spike. And then I think on his wedding day, he put the bloody clothes of the chief on display as a sort of ceremonial like, hey, it's my wedding day. Here's a guy I killed. So he is not friendly.

Well, no. This is our foundation myth. Growing up, a common boast in Boston is that someone said, well, my descendants came over on the Mayflower. People were quite proud of their lineage. And they are seen by other Americans as the original Americans. It's like saying, I am the most British. They are seen actually as the founders of America, truly. And the founding fathers would reference the Mayflower from time to time.

What's interesting is in 1621, things are going very badly, but the Desquantum and Messasoit have helped them out. The colonists also get a little bit of relief because Thomas Weston, the useless Thomas Weston, sends out a couple more ships, I think it might even be three ships, with more colonists on them, but none of them are Puritans. There's no more religious people turning up with Bibles. These people are coming to make money.

They are coming out there to start a new life. So the religious foundation of the Mayfair colony is kind of just forgotten. This now becomes a kind of trade thing. Yeah, and I think the New England colonies become known for production and agricultural production and the settlement of families. And in that way, it's always kind of distinguished, I guess, from the colonies that we see sprouting up in the Chesapeake region at this time that are involved in intensive production of things like tobacco.

But they do start to begin turning a profit through trade, although it's kind of slow. Yeah. And then the English go to war against the Spanish. And it causes a shortage of beaver fur hats, which, of course, as we all know, is the vital commodity that you need in a wartime. Genuinely, the thing about the Puritans and the merchants teaming up is fascinating because it does make sense that this colonial enterprise needed backing that's fueled both by fanaticism and some economic interest. The story of America is basically faith and commerce going hand in hand from the very beginnings. Yeah, I mean, it's an argument that the Virginia Company has to make as well, because I guess they have to show that there's a public good

or something moral underlining all of these ventures. But of course, it needs to have a commercial element if it's going to be viable as well. If you're going to create a new society, you've got to make money somehow. But I think that brings us on to my favourite part of the show, which is called the nuance window. The nuance window! This is where, Alex, you and I, we go silent for two minutes and our expert, Misha, does a mini lecture on what she thinks we need to hear.

Without much further ado, Misha, the nuance window, please. So I actually want to draw on this idea that you've already raised about Mayflower as being the origin story of the United States. And instead think about Jamestown, which is settled in 1607 and is actually the first permanent settlement in the United States. And why perhaps that hasn't gained the same kind of, I guess, recognition and doesn't have the same mythology around it as Mayflower and Plymouth does. I think the grounds on which Plymouth is sometimes preferred over Jamestown is because Jamestown is actually a very grisly and uncomfortable origin story. The early years are marked by famine and drought and war with the local indigenous population. And this culminates in the starving time during the winter of 1609 to10 when the colonists are trapped in the fort.

They're resorting to eating rats and even shoe leather and there are also signs of cannibalism. So this is both in the written sources and it's actually backed up by archaeological evidence as well. So one artefact that scholars have found there is the skull of a young adolescent woman and it shows signs that her skull had actually been butchered for meat. Out of 240 settlers only 60 are actually alive at the end

of this winter and I think also that whereas the Mayflower is set up as this search for freedom Jamestown by contrast is viewed as this profit-seeking disaster. Another dimension to the history of early America, of course, is slavery. The first enslaved Africans arrive in 1619. And I think this really contrasts again with this idea that the founding of America is founded on freedom. Instead, it's always entangled with this very uncomfortable history of slavery as well. Thank you so much. I'm afraid that's all we have time for today.

So let me say a huge thank you to our wonderful guests. In History Corner from the University of Manchester, it's Dr. Misha Ewan. And in Comedy Corner, it's Alex Edelman. And to you, dear listeners, join me next time for some more completely different history, peppered with some jokes to make it slightly less depressing. But for now, I'm off to go and do a critical rewatch of Disney's Pocahontas. Bye! Hello, Louis Theroux here.

And I just wanted to hijack this podcast to tell you that I'm back with another series of my podcast, Grounded with Louis Theroux. In case you hadn't noticed, COVID hasn't gone away, and because of travel restrictions, neither have I. So I've rounded up the likes of Michaela Cole, Frankie Boyle, Oliver Stone, Sia and FKA Twigs for another set of eclectic and thought-provoking conversations. Yes, I'm still grounded with me, Louis Theroux. Available on BBC Sounds. This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon Pull-Apart only at Wendy's.

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