You're Dead to Me - The Victorian Christmas

Episode Date: December 13, 2019

Why do we celebrate Christmas with cards, crackers and a tree? Join us as we travel back and explore the weird and wonderful history of the Victorian Christmas. Just who the Dickens had the idea to bring trees indoors? Can a soft-drinks firm really take credit for Father Christmas’s red suit? And why did the Victorians send each other such bizarre Christmas cards? Greg Jenner is joined in the studio by historian Dr Fern Riddell and comedian Russell Kane. Produced by Cornelius Mendez Scripted and researched by Greg JennerA Muddy Knees Media production for BBC Radio 4

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to a very special episode of You're Dead to Me, a history podcast for people who don't like history, or at least people who forgot to learn any at school. My name's Greg Jenner, I'm a public historian, author, and I'm the chief nerd on the BBC comedy show Horrible Histories and for the purposes of

today I'm also the ghost of Christmas past. Yes, as you can probably tell from the extra jingling on our intro jingle, it's the contractually obligated festive special and today we are pulling our crackers, dangling shiny things on the tree and basting the turkey in time honour tradition as we get to grips with how the Victorians celebrated Christmas. Tis the season for boughs of jolly so I'm joined by two very special guests. In History Corner, she's an author, broadcaster and expert on Victorian popular culture, plus she's my fellow Honorary Research Associate at Royal Holloway University. It's the lovely Dr Fern Riddell. Hi Fern.

Hi Greg. You feeling Christmassy? I am. Oh, that's good. And in Comedy Corner, boasting one of the most impressive CVs in comedy, he is a multi-award winning stand-up, presenter, writer and performer. You'll have seen him countless times on the telly. And now he's the host of the fantastic BBC Sounds podcast, Evil Genius, a comedy podcast about history.

How would that even work? It is the brilliant Russell Kane. Hi, Russell. How are you? Hello. Now, you are famed for your upbeat energy. I think of you as a very sort of positive man who, you know, who loves kind of being enthusiastic about stuff. I think of you as a very sort of positive man who, you know, who loves kind of being

enthusiastic about stuff. I'm enthusiastic. Sometimes I can be excoriating and withering with that energy if you know what I'm talking about. All right. But I am sort of,

from the moment I spring out of bed, once I get the espressos going, that's how I go. I'm weirdly quick at falling asleep. It's like a sort of Cairn Terrier. I run round a park,

go back in my basket. Does that mean you're very Christmassy? No, I am into Christmas, providing, as it is now, it's actually December. What I cannot abide is, like last year, because we have a Christmas tradition, Lindsay and me, where we put up Christmas tree decorations together now with our daughter, and we all have fish and chips and drink ales and have like a carb day. But because it worked out last year, she's like,

we're going to have to do it on November the 20th. And it totally spoiled Christmas for me. Oh, that's too early. It's horrible. It's out of context. It's like, I love dancing, but if you start dancing in Asda, you're probably going to get sectioned. I just don't agree with Christmas early, commercially, festively, or on any other level. All right. Well, today we are going to be tackling Christmas in the 19th century. There's a slightly different thing about today's episode, because as well as having an expert in History Corner, Dr Fern,

who's a brilliant scholar of the 19th century of social stuff and of pop culture, that's your kind of bag. Can you say sex, Greg? Well, you're a sex historian as well, historian of sexuality. But as well as Dr Fern, I have to admit that today is also my specialist subject. I wrote my undergraduate dissertation on the history of Victorian Christmas cards.

So you are being double teamed by nerds today. I'm basically sprinting against two Usain Bolts today. Hopefully by the end of it, three Usain Bolts will all be on an equal footing. So let's get on with it. So, what do you know? Well, you start the show as ever with the So what do you know? Where I summarise all the things I think people at home might know about the subject. And, well, let's start with the obvious.

In 2018, Dan Stevens, the nice chap from Downton Abbey, played Charles Dickens in a movie called The Man Who Invented Christmas. And if you haven't read Dickens' classic novella, A Christmas Carol, then you've probably seen the Muppets version, which is a freaking masterpiece. And seriously, it's the greatest role Michael Caine has ever done. No argument, I am right. So, you're probably thinking Charles Dickens is Mr Christmas. It all started with him, and maybe you've been told

that Victorian Christmas was uncorrupted by modern commercialism. It was the good old days of festive cheer and family values before we got obsessed with manipulative schmaltz and John Lewis adverts about cute kids. But is this true? Were the Victorians as pure as their reputation? Was Dickens the primary Yuletide architect? Have we commercialised it?

Or actually, was it all about money anyway? Let's find out. Dr Fern, let's have an argument. Where do you stand on Dickens as the man who invented Christmas? Is it legit or a load of old baubles? Well, I would say in many ways it is legitimate. Well, it is because we have this moment where you have Dickens and the Christmas Carol in 1843. You have this incredible new style of Christmas as mass commercialisation.

And I think that we see that growing throughout the Victorian period. And now it's something we really hold on to. You know, Christmas for a lot of people is Dickensian. It's snow, it's mulled wine, it's oranges, it's Tiny Tim, it's everything. So for me, in many ways, I think the Victorians are responsible for our modern day Christmas. I would quibble with that. I would say the Victorians are supercharged Christmas. I think it's a much older festive tradition and then they come along and they pump it full of hormones. Yeah, I would agree with that. We know that Christmas has existed for a very, very long time after all.

It's a huge festive part of our calendar from the medieval period onwards, if not before, in some form. You're right in that idea that it's something that gets supercharged by the Victorians, very much so. All right. Let's talk Christmas trees. Russell, what's the Christmas tree looking like in your house? We're talking massive Norwegian fir, fake tree. Well, I'm the Christmas tree looking like in your house? Are we talking massive Norwegian fur?

Fake tree? Well, I'm from Essex. Have a guess. Convincing looking, but plastic. It's older than you think it is because it's had the bits done to it. Its baubles are slightly larger than they need to be. It's been oppressed by other trees around it in the media. Lots of

tinsel? Or are we talking decorations? To be honest with you, I'm not allowed near it. Lindsay, who isn't from Essex, my wife, she's from Manchester. She's more the one with the designery. She's a makeup artist and designs eyelashes, so she's got the eye for making it look nice. So actually your tree is actually quite classy and beautiful. Yeah, it's all like steels and gold.

I mean, the amount she's done, I could not be arsed. We have an actual grotto under the stairs. Six foot Santa, reindeer, lights, all the stuff going on. It's bearable now that we've got a child. Before it was something slightly sick and Freudian about a grown woman going, look at me, James Snowman. Shall we wear adult nappies as well, you weirdo? What's on top of the tree?

We've got a tiny wooden puppet of Richard Dawkins which we put on top. No. I think it'll probably be an angel. Okay. Classic. Fern, what's on top of your tree?

A star. Star. It's got to be a star. Both of those are Victorian traditions, aren't they? Those are both standard Victorian.

Mine's scrap from Ice Age. Not a standard Victorian. Not a standard. It's scrap from the Ice Age. Scrap. You know, he's the sort of squirrel rat thing

that's obsessed with nuts and I'm allergic to nuts so Scrap, he's obsessed with nuts in a different way, so he's on top of my tree. Okay, cool. Can I just interrogate the terms of your initial question? Yeah. Because I noticed a very quick slip from did Dickens to invent Christmas to did Victorians invent Christmas.

Dickens, as far as I know, Charles Dickens is one man, and the Victorians is a whole era. It's very true. We can be pedantic, I like it. Go on then, let's have some pedantry. Are we saying that Dickens the man invented it and the Victorians around him were infected by his manifesto

of Christmasness? Or are we saying that he was just like, you know, one of the main people or was Victoria and Albert with their Christmas tree? Was it sort of a Nehru and Gandhi type situation? I think it's a combination and it's more a decade. The abettical question would be,

did this decade invent Christmas? Which is 1840s. It is, because that's when we get A Christmas Carol, which obviously is Charles Dickens and it's the whole story. Its themes are of love and desire and loss and what you need to be a good person.

What's the message of Christmas is, if you're not good, you will go to hell. So be good at Christmas. And not only in the 1840s do you have this incredibly powerful message, you know, people really want to read Dickens. Dickens is like the J.K. Rowling of his day. We also have Prince Albert illustrated in kind of newspapers across the country what his version of Christmas is like. So you get the Christmas tree, which is where people are like, oh, Prince Albert's got a Christmas tree.

Albert's Christmas tree is 1848, but the Christmas tree is not a Victorian import. So it is earlier. Do you know when it comes earlier, Russell? Have you got any clue? William, was it before? William IV? Well, so... Close.

William IV's pretty good. It's George III era, isn't it? Yes. Queen Caroline. Queen Caroline, who was German. So it's a German III, isn't it? Yes. Queen Caroline. Queen Caroline, who was German. So it's a German tradition, isn't it? Well, she brings it over in terms of she hangs kind of beautiful baubles and little gifts on a yew tree.

And this makes the English aristocracy, and they're like, this is a great idea. Literally the worst tree you could pick. Yew tree's sort of fallen out of favour recently, hasn't it? Well, yeah, Operation Yew Tree has somewhat ruined the Christmas magic. Talk about PR disaster. The yew tree will live on forever, Caroline. I can't see anything that will spoil it.

It's a very strong tradition in Germany, going back to probably the time of Martin Luther. It is this idea, actually, there's a war about Christmas trees between the Catholics and the Protestants and people like to say... Oh my God, is there anything they won't argue about? The war on Christmas. A giant condom over the Protestant tree, it's not fair. But they like to say... Is there anything they won't argue about? The war on Christmas. A giant condom over the Protestant tree.

It's not fair. But they like to say that it is, that there was this rumour that Martin Luther did it and the Protestants were the first to invent Christmas trees. And there's no truth in that at all. We don't know, really. Christmas trees are very old. And I think what's fascinating is that Queen Caroline chooses a yew tree,

which for British tradition is one of the most kind of important historically folkloric trees that we have so she's kind of hanging it on something that symbolizes a return to nature long-standing old father time and it's a really beautiful way of connecting to her British subjects and her British country really and it becomes popular as you say in the 1840s and grows throughout the century. And people also decorate their houses with holly and ivy. They're taking stuff from the natural world

and putting it into their houses. And I would argue that's a response to the Industrial Revolution. Do you agree on that one? I think because the 1840s are instrumental in when we see this shift from our old culture, which had gone before, which is pastoral and folkloric, to what has started in really the late 1700s, which is pastoral and folkloric to what has started in the late 1700s, which is

the Industrial Revolution. And that's led to mass urbanisation and by the 1840s we've got these huge amazing cities full of people who are still trying to connect to their pastoral family roots, which are by that point only a generation or two old. So they're bringing with them all the ideas of the

rural pastoral past. Alright, we've're bringing with them all the ideas of the rural pastoral past. All right, we've moved from trees onto another new invention of the 1840s. We have some Christmas crackers in the studio. Fern, Russell, I'm asking you now to pull a cracker. Let's do a test of strength. No correct result for this. No, there isn't. No, it's like the politics have become so complex that whoever wins is problematic.

Hey! Oh, this is perfect. I've got a bottle opener in the first one oh hello and a mirror a little mirror that one was meant for me there's the hat and the joke in there yeah come on russell let's have a comedy performance please what do you get if you cross a prince with a pizza express No, I'm joking. This is not a joke. It's actually, this will probably appeal to you nerds more.

It's more a riddle. What gets wet with drying? Oh, I don't know. A towel. Oh. I wouldn't call that a joke. No. It's more sort of a riddler.

I've got a joke for you. Is it a joke or is it another teaser? Well, I think you're going to have to be the judge of that. Why is it easy to weigh a fish? Because of scales. Oh, Greg, because it's got its own scale. Ah, okay. Sorry. I killed the joke. I sat on the punchline.

So, I'm going to tell you the classic story of how Christmas crackers were invented, and then I think Fern is probably going to tell me I'm wrong. So, here's the famous story Russell in 1841 there's a man called Tom Smith he's a confectioner he makes sweets and he sees the French wrap sweets in little paper little bonbons and he's trying to think of a way of marketing it and it takes him years and years and years and finally the story goes he sees a log on his fireplace crackle and oh, brilliant, I'll put a little bit of saltpeter in there and when you pull the cracker, it will

make a bang noise. Russell, what do you think he called his crackers? What year is this? Sort of late 1840s. It would have been distasteful to call it a Peterloo. I was trying to think of puns on saltpeter, but that's still quite in living memory at that point. Explosives Josephs

That's nice, that's in the right ballpark He went with Bangs of Expectation That's not bad Oh, was Great Expectations already out? Was it a pun on Literary Popular? It probably would have done, but later on, yes I mean, it sounds like a Dickensian porn film, Bangs of Expectation It's like if you went on Pornhub

that you saw a Charles Dickens character May I have some more, you damn rat You may have some more you're damn right you may have some more so that's the classic story Dickens Dickens it's felt different the porn star was felt different

my name's Charles Dickens oh no oh no you started it he would have been very happy with that I didn't think of the porn connection Greg don't you Greg started the porn stuff

that is the classic story that tom smith invented it tell me it's true fern you're now going to come in with your facts and ruin it well it's not that it's not true it's like all victorians like to invent a story a mythology for themselves we've got queen victoria we've got everything and the cracker story is no different so tom smith is a real. He was a confectioner, but he did not invent the cracker and he did not invent it by hearing a log crackle in the fire.

It was actually his brother, who's H.J. Smith, who worked in the music halls. And there's quite a high likelihood that he would have had an understanding of both stage magic and the silver filaments that were used in the early crackers

that make that bang noise to be able to put them together because his brother tom as a confectioner was really struggling to sell these sweets and so to come up with something that was new and really exciting and could be based at christmas was what hj smith really did and we don't know his story because no one's recorded it because the family themselves were so good at creating this brand. Because, of course, Victorians commercialise Christmas. Yeah. That's what they did in every aspect of it. But by the 1870s, there are hats inside them.

There are jokes inside them. So the cracker that we think of is being used. People are enjoying it. I mean, I should say the Tom Smith Cracker Company still exists. No way. It does. And still makes the official crackers for the royal family. But they presumably like still the romantic story way. It does. And still makes the official crackers for the royal family. But they presumably like still

the romantic story version. They do. And I think, you know, these crackers are beautiful things, especially by the 1880s, 1890s. They're covered in incredible pieces of artwork. They had jewellery inside them. They had, again, gendered toys.

Like I've got a bottle opener and a compact mirror, which for me is fine but it is this idea That's a good night out there I'm very on brand The advertisements that Tom Smith Company put out I really love because they're like

these beautiful crackers painted of people who are important and also are for adult parties and children's parties You're like what sort of adult parties? We're back to the porn film again, aren't we? But it really is. And the Tom Smiths, they really do go for it

and they become the most popular brand of the Victorian period. That'd be the best two uncles to have. What do your two uncles do? One runs a sweet shop, one runs a magic shop. Everyone's my friend from day one. Exactly. Amazing. Well, going from crackers, you get fun little trinkets in there.

They feel a bit like gifts. Let's talk Christmas gifts. Because actually, the Victorian Christmas, we see a huge surge in the way in which toys are marketed to kids. This is a moment in history where suddenly there is a marketplace for kids as a new audience. It is. But throughout the Victorian period,

we see this kind of almost a fetishisation of childhood, which is children should be kept as pure and innocent and they're not tiny adults, which is often what they have been seen as in the past. This marketing of Christmas presents is something that goes for everyone, whatever family you are in. And it's not actually specifically Victorian.

If you look at the 18th century, there's lots of people advertising for Christmas boxes that you would go and you would find a box for you in the morning and children should be up from five and you should be able to hear the cries through the house of what they've got in their Christmas box and how exciting it is. But in the 19th century, this targeting toys, because we've got industrialisation,

because we've got huge factories now that can make loads of toys, rocking horses, nutcrackers, anything you like, mass produced, suddenly more children can have an exciting Christmas than really could have had before. Because before that, it would have been very specialised and very much based on how much money you had, whether or not you got a gift at Christmas. And the toys are put in stockings? Well, they're put in stockings. They're left under trees. They're by the fireplace. And what's in them is always something that you should get excited by. So it could be a skipping rope for girls, toy soldiers for boys. And one of the things I really love is that especially

in the early 19th century for young boys, you would leave some beer. Legends. How young are century, for young boys, you would leave some beer. Legends. How young are we talking, young boys? Really young. There is an idea, you know, drinking beer or drinking porter was like drinking water. Russell, what did you get for Christmas as a kid? That carried on in my house.

When I was seven, Dad went, this is a Stella. We were big on Christmas. Yeah, did you do the stocking thing? My dad was not the most generous man. He was quite a tightwad, really. It was literally like three full bin bags of just... I could never sleep on the 24th either.

It's the insomnia children get. Can you remember the feeling of it? It was like a physical pain of wanting it to be the morning. It was so amazing. It is terribly commercialised, but I do love giving gifts. The older I get, the more of a buzz I get out of being the one that gives the gift so I'd have made an awful Scrooge.

Do you want to guess what the most common gifts were between adults? Don't go dirty. This one's a bit more clean. I haven't initially gone dirty. I think if anything's been established today it's that Greg has got dirty thoughts on his mind. Fruit or... Fruit would be number one. No way, what a guess. Yeah, nailed it. And the second one would be books.

Christmas books. Ah, books, of course. It's a huge marketplace. Fern? Well, books are a massive marketplace. I wouldn't have thought literacy was, is literacy quite high at this point? Yeah, huge, especially from the 1870s onwards. But it's also the authors themselves realised that at Christmas they're going to get a lot of people buying their books. It's the birth of the Christmas special. It is the birth of the Christmas special. Sherlock Holmes is introduced to us as a Christmas character. That's published at Christmas time. Obviously, Christmas Carol with Dickens. And one author who is absolutely desperate to make sure his books gets published at Christmas

is nicknamed by his publisher, Christmas Carol because Lewis Carroll is desperate for everyone to make sure that they are reading his books at Christmas and he writes to his publisher sort of saying that come on the children are going to be asleep and they're going to be full of plum pudding they should be lying in bed reading my books

and no one will sort of will listen to him I think of them as summer when I think closed minds think of Lewis Carroll's work you see sunshine and fields and you think of it like a lazy summer don't get me wrong I read Christmas Carol every Christmas When I think, close my eyes and think of Lewis Carroll's work, you see sunshine and fields and you think of it like a lazy summer read.

Don't get me wrong, I read Christmas Carol every Christmas. That book is a success and I love Great Expectations and Hard Times. Other than that, Dickens doesn't speak to me. That's interesting. Trollope, Trollope, massive Trollope fan. I've read all Barchester, I've read all the palaces. I love The Warden. I think I just find the characters more believable in Trollope.

Dickens was a huge Christmas... I mean, not just Christmas Carol. He used to do lots of short stories as well. So he was a really important writer and journalist when it comes to Christmas. One of the things he also does is he publishes all year round, which is his magazine. And in that, he always

gets other authors to give Christmas stories. And normally they're ghost stories one of the great things is we find a lot of female authors there. The problem is Dickens often takes the names off so we only know that they're female authors when you go back and you read them He had a slight issue with ladies as well didn't he?

He left his wife for a 17 year old girl Yes, the word for a ghost story incidentally is a hierophant But they are a huge part of the Christmas tradition as well. And a lot of female authors like Amelia Edwards, who was a travel explorer, she was writing ghost stories for Dickens to be published at Christmas. If you want someone to read who is a Victorian author that you should be reading instead of Dickens, you should try Mary Elizabeth Braddon because Braddon writes the best Victorian stories.

And she's got a good Crimbo one. She's got a lot of revenge tales. Lovely. I would say. Sorry, Tarantino. Yeah, a lot of revenge. No, she is. Her first novel was called Kill William, wasn't it?

We need to move on to Father Christmas. Or is it Santa Claus? Or is it St Nicholas of Myra? Or Kris Kringle? Russell, what do you say in your house? Do you go Father Christmas? Do you say Santa? Who's coming down the chimney?

We say Santa, but we use both. We're bilingual. So you have to be, well, Father Christmas is not coming. Oh, there goes Santa now. Yeah, we say both. Yeah, which I think is very common across the country probably. Fern, where does Father Christmas come from compared to St. Nicholas? And let's focus on more recent history.

Let's not do medieval. Well, let's go backwards actually, because to say Santa Claus and father christmas we might think is a really modern thing but victorians were doing it from the middle of the 19th century onwards because of the american papers the idea of santa claus obviously comes we think from towards the night before christmas which is a poem that's written in the u.s yeah and that by clement moore well we don't know if he might have stolen it but that's in the kind of the 1820s 183030s, around that point that this comes out and it gets published. So the idea of Santa Claus comes over from the US media into ours. So you see it, you see both.

But Father Christmas is a really British tradition. And there's, yeah, that's a beautiful image from there in the red, beautiful kind of red cape and a big white beard, which is a very Victorian kind of idea of him. But he's been part of our culture for centuries. He used to be dressed in purple and gold. And there's a wonderful article in the Newcastle Current in 1742 that says he is as fat as punch and as merry as full staff. He was a delight to the rich and a comfort to the poor. And it's this idea that that 12 nights, from Christmas Day to Epiphany,

is a time of joy and feasting by this beautiful, huge spirit, this character, that if you've seen a Muppet Christmas Carol, is the ghost of Christmas present. And that is the idea. That is the British tradition of who Father Christmas is. The story of how St Nicholas arrives in America is very confusing

We don't know It was the devil Am I being thick? Oh that's Germanic Krampus isn't it? Yeah Well Krampus is the

Krampus is what you get after sprouts Well you have St Nick or you have St Nicholas in the Germanic states

and then Krampus is his almost evil twin It's the evil spirit It's the ghost It's the kind of the demon.

He's covered in fur and horns. And he will punish you. Yeah, it's that. If you've been bad, Krampus will punish you. We don't tend to get that brought over to us. It's just a happy, fun, feasting time. Father Christmas is more secular, really, isn't it? I mean, St. Nicholas is slightly more of a religious heritage, perhaps.

I mean, it's confused, but Father Christmas feels a bit more sort of pagan-y and a bit more like, you know, it's a sort of winter, almost like a visiting sprite. British Christmas for British people. Yeah, it's a spirit. It's this connection to an old way of thinking, an old tradition. And, you know, I love the idea of him being as merry as Falstaff

because obviously Shakespeare wrote Twelfth Night, which is about confusion and love and what you can do and how you need to find your way through to it and family and all of these things. I think that is what Christmas is supposed to be, for the Victorians as much as for the people who went before us. Russell, can you have a quick guess as to what was the first moment that something big happened with Santa Claus

on Christmas Day 1841 in Philadelphia in America? This is sort of speaking about the history of commercialism. I don't know when radio or the... No, it's earlier than radio. Yeah, it feels earlier than Marconi and all that.

I mean, well, I'm way into darts and a dartboard now. But what could possibly be commercial in the 1840s? It has to be something to do with post, surely. Good guess.

So what you'd say may be sort of stamps or something like that? Some sort of stamps. The only thing that could get around a country quickly at that point would be something postal, I would have thought. Well, it's a good guess, actually.

It's a very good guess. But, actually, this is the first time he appears in a department store. A department store? This is the first time an actor is hired to impersonate Santa Claus, and he's hired by J.W. Parkinson. I was thinking commercial, as in getting across. No, but that's who you did very well with, thinking, and actually stamps happen exactly that moment.

1840s is when we get... I know, it sticks in my mind, pardon the pun, as relevant to stamps 1840s. Yeah. Isn't it Penny Black or something? Penny Black, yep, exactly, and the Penny Red.

Ripping the arse out of his neck. So 1841 is when we get Father Christmas, or rather the American Saint Nick, turning up in department stores and entertaining kids. So actually the commercialism is already happening, you know, a long time ago. Would that be Macy's?

Would that be as far back as then? This is Philadelphia. It's a toy shop and delicatessen owned by J.W. Parkinson. So Macy's do get one later on in the century, but this is really early. And behind me on the wall there is an image of Father Christmas, which is a Victorian image, and he's wearing red. There is this myth that Coca-Cola invented him wearing red, and

it's just not true. But he wears a variety of colours, doesn't he, Fern? I mean, you've mentioned purple and gold, but we see him also in brown and green and yellow is very common. But again, these are rural pastoral vegetation outside where you can see these sort of colours. It's linking him to a pureness of spirit. He'd pass the BBC impartiality test during an election debate with the way you just described him,

as long as he's wearing all the colours at once. Not Brexit. He's not. christmas is very much not brexit he needs open borders exactly how would he get around he'd be stuck he'd be stuck in the irish border sorry children i was stuck at dover due to the backstop being stretched out for all the way for the irish sea across the country into the channel well of course i mean how does he get around he has of course flying reindeer which is again cle he get around? He has, of course, Flying Reindeer, which is, again, from Clement Moore. Rudolph is a 1940s and 50s invention. So Rudolph comes later, I'm afraid, out of our period. So this Clement Moore sounds like a bit of potential fraudster then.

Yeah. You dangled that tantalisingly early on and moved on. Who is Clement Moore? I've never heard of him. He was an American scholar. He was a very sort of brainy professor and the poem is accredited to him, but it's not really in his style and several scholars think that he nicked it from someone else. He was a very sort of brainy professor and the poem is accredited to him, but it's not really in his style.

And several scholars think that he nicked it from someone else. So it appears anonymously in 1823, I think. And then he supposedly claims credit for it in 1837? Yeah, it's a little bit later on. It's quite a lot later. It's about 15 years later. And he's like, oh, yes, I wrote that. That was me, yeah, 15 years ago. Christmas legend that I am. See if you can guess who turns up to join Santa in 1849 in a short story by James Rees. He doesn't have any sidekicks.

Well. He'd have to be, it can either be Mrs. Santa. Hey, nailed it. Is that it? Yeah. Mrs. Claus. 1849 is the first mention. That far back.

Yeah, it's the first time that he gets married. That feels like something like Germaine Greer invented in 1973 or something. We need a female Santa to stop the hegemony. Let's talk Christmas dinner. What do people eat, Fern? Is it turkey? Is it duck? What's on the menu? I'm assuming it's all the standard stuff, but is there anything that might surprise us? Would you like to know what the Queen was eating in 1897?

Yes, please. In 1897, the Norwood News delivered this incredible list of what the Queen was having, all served on gold plates, of course. Nice. She had woodcock pie, a baron of beef, boar's head and turkey, goose, plum pudding, mince pies,

everything. Yeah, so mince pies at this period, well Russell, what do you think's in a mince pie in the 19th century? I'm hoping it was originally mince then. It was, yeah. By the way, by the way. It's like Rachel and Friends. There's meat and there's fruit.

Yeah, but it's meat and sweet fruit and spices. Game, I would imagine. Recently, I'm not vegan, but I'm trying to eat just proper meat that's been properly sourced. So I've got more into my wild game. I've got over my pigeon and partridge phobias. Very Victorian. And things like that go so well with blueberries and blackberries and cherries and things like that. So that's not, to me, that's not gross or weird.

It'd be more like a pork pie type experience rather than a mince pie type experience. Very much so. But what sort of shape do you think Victorian mince pies were? Could be a star for the star of Jezzos. Good guess. Do you want to try another one? Given that it's Victoria, I wouldn't be surprised if it was phallic. Victorian minstrels could be a star for the star of Jizz Oz good guess do you want to try another one given that it's Victoria

I wouldn't be surprised if it was phallic with a piercing through it a Prince Albert she was notoriously lusty after Albert she was they were lusty

anyway Victorians were incredibly lusty but this is getting a sidetracked Starshape Tour Oblong they're my nomination

Oblong is very close Greg what do you think? Well, I would have gone square. Close, but not quite right. So they were kind of oval-shaped because they were supposed to represent either a coffin or the manger of baby Jesus.

That's better. Not only was it that they were a completely different shape, but they were also supposed to tell what religion you were because if you were Christian, you would eat the tiny baby Jesus. Of course, as we all do. And if you were Jewish, you wouldn't. It was something that they really shifted their understanding. It's not what we would recognise as a mince pie today at all.

So as well as people eating at home, this is also a time of charity. The 19th century has delivered an enormous amount of poverty. There are millions of people coming to the cities who are, a lot of them are really struggling. So we also get soup kitchens, but bigger than that, Christmas kitchens almost. Absolutely, and I think we have this idea that the Victorians are very much them and us. You've got the aristocracy and then you've got

everyone who's poor and who had nothing, because we didn't have a welfare state. It's also this huge period of reform and social care, and from the 1840s onwards, there is this idea that if you are a good Christian person, you are supposed to care for the people around you who have less than you. It's kind of written into how to be a good Victorian is to do these things. And

in 1851, the Leicester Square Soup Kitchen, it feeds on Christmas Day, 22,000 people who are either homeless or families who are really struggling. It's this incredible kind. They take over Leicester Square and they put in this marquee with festive illuminated lights from Soho and beautiful flags and oranges and flowers. And they feed everyone on roast beef, pies, potatoes, bread, lots of plum pudding, jugs of porter, tea, coffee, biscuits, rabbit pies, goose, you know, chestnuts. I could go on and on.

They have 50 cakes. They go through 5,000 pounds of plum pudding on this one day. And it's really this idea that you do care for the people around you and that at Christmas, everyone has a right to something, to be able to celebrate in some way. And we see these across the country in any of the kind of big towns, Manchester, Newcastle, anywhere on Christmas Day, there is always an attempt by the Guildhall or anyone else to host a dinner for those who are homeless and to give them the spirit

of Christmas. We can sort of look at that and go, oh, how lovely. But it doesn't take away the poverty that people were then in for the other for the rest of the year. And that's the argument about if you read A Christmas Carol as a cynic, you can see that this is a man changed at the end and he's had a profound revelatory experience. But if you read it quite cynically, you can say that here's a man who's like,

I'll be nice for a week. And might even slip back into his old ways. But it's an interesting thing. I mean, also in prisons, for example, the guards would serve meals to the inmates who normally they'd be brutalising them. You know, for one day a year, everyone was sort of nice to the poor. And that's an ancient tradition,

the idea of patriarchal society where you're meant to sort of be nice to those without power. And we sort of see that all the way in parents would be given presents to children. It's a way of transfer of, you know, stuff from those with things to those who don't have. But there is also by the mid-century more about giving between equals as well, isn't there? Very much so. As we get a large middle class and we get a working class that is becoming aspirational,

you start to see people sort of going, well, you know, in my newspapers, I've got all these incredible illustrations of Prince Albert with his Christmas tree. Where's my Christmas tree? And we don't know quite why Boxing Day is called Boxing Day No. No it's weird it's one of these things you're like surely we can identify that. You're like Boxing Day

and I have no idea. No we don't know And there's that thing on the internet anywhere There's plenty on the internet but the most... Boxing things up surely surely, rather than beating each other up. Yes, it's not violence day. It's not punching day. I always thought it was to do with boxing. Punching day is Christmas day where I grew up.

Everyone drinks too much. We think it's probably that people would maybe collect things door to door with boxes. They might go around. It might be a collection for the sailors. Oh, my God, the Christmas boxes. So the Christmas boxes is a 19th century and 18th century tradition, isn't it? 18th century tradition. You'd have the Christmas boxes, maybe it's just when everyone went around

the Christmas boxes were empty and they gave your Christmas box back. Possibly, but we think it must be collections again for the poor or the needy. We're not quite sure. But what's interesting about Boxing Day is that it's made an official bank holiday in 1871 in England and Wales, but not in Scotland. In Scotland, they get their own local laws. They get to decide more locally, more regionally. So in England and Wales, but not in Scotland. In Scotland, they get their own local laws.

They get to decide more locally, more regionally. So in England and Wales, it's an official bank holiday, has been since then, but in Scotland, different. So yeah, Boxing Day, we're not quite sure what it's called that,

but it's a big deal here in Britain. But I'm half French, and in France, Boxing Day is like, bof, what is Boxing Day? We have no idea. Because they do Christmas on... Les Jus, Pigeonisme. Yes, everyone comes and they punch the children in the face,

as is tradition. Les Rospies. But in France, they do Christmas on the 24th, and Christmas Day is a sort of really boring day of just sitting around feeling a bit full. So, you know... Wait, hold on a second. You drop things in and blow people's minds

and think you can get away with it. You just put the window through of Harrods and then run off. They open their presents on Christmas Eve. Yeah, about 8pm through to midnight. So as a kid growing up, I used to go to Paris a lot and I used to find it really weird. I'd be like, what's going on with Christmas? Why are we doing it in the middle of the time? Same in Germany, same in...

And so the 25th, you still eat the turkey and stuff? 25th is sort of like Leftovers Day and you're meant to go to church. So that's like Boxing Day then? It's sort of like the Boxing Day and meant to go to church so that's like boxing day then it's sort of like the boxing day and you go to church and you you know Penuel might come round

but you'd be like I'm not really there there's something else I can't abide who gets up at 9 and then waits till 8pm

to open presents what kind of serial killer detachment do you have from your emotions I mean seriously

it should only be Ted Bundy that could stare at gifts and go I have no urge to open them. Like if you've got any sort of emotion, you'd be like, give me the gifts now and tear them open. Well, the other thing there is the Victorians started wrapping gifts in about the 1870s and 80s. That's when we start to see.

They were naked before. They were naked before. So you knew what you were getting. You knew what you were getting. Yeah. So under the tree, they'd just be there. So you had to stare at a toy soldier and play with it. Yeah.

Oh, that is very Victorian Victorian though, isn't it? Look at your toy but don't touch it. Let's move on to my favourite thing about the history of Christmas, which is how geniusly bonkers Victorian Christmas cards were. This is what I wrote my undergraduate dissertation on. This is my favourite thing. Russell, we have 16 cards. They're on a slideshow behind us. I'm going to show you them

one at a time and I just want you to react to what you are seeing. So at the moment we've got one up which is just Father Christmas looking sort of quite nice. We've got Sad Santa. Sad Santa. Looks like he just got back from Ibiza two days ago. He's bags under the eyes. Yeah, he's like, I'm not going to hang over.

Wait a minute, it's Tuesday, I'm crying in the toilet. And next. It's children riding bats with feathers that look like an analogous for polo sticks. Yeah. So it's like, it's polo bat. It's basically baby jockeys on bats right yeah it's baby jockeys on bats yeah very christmassy indeed i mean it's sort of a mescaline christmas card this is an owl riding is that a penny farthing yeah that's an owl riding

a penny farthing delivering a message delivering a message next one i wouldn't need a rearview mirror if they're an owl of course course, because they just look straight behind. Russell, say what you see. There's some people playing music under a window and then a man's emptying his chamber pot onto the drummer's face. That's literally it. It's like, play drum outside my window, I will empty my piss into your face. That's the moral of that story. Next up.

This is a pair of cocks. Do you want to just nuance that? I believe, looking by the wattle. It could be a cock and cocks. Do you want to just nuance that? I believe looking by the wattle. It could be a cock and a chicken. Yes. Yes, cock and a hen rather. And they're on sleds. So it's a man and a woman's body with a cock and chicken head

riding a sled. I mean it's what you would draw at six in the morning if you just mixed acid with MDMA. Let's see this. I mean this is getting really weird now. What is a plum pudding? I mean, I've let you get away with it over and over again. I never had plum pudding, so that could be a plum pudding with two things stuck in its face, like a carving knife and a carving fork. And instead of legs, it's got two port bottles and on its head, a dish with a

glass. And it's grinning. It's grinning. Is it a plum pudding? It's sort of, yeah, it's got two port bottles and on its head, a dish with a glass. And it's grinning. It's grinning. Is it a plum pudding? Sort of, yeah. It's a Christmas pudding. What is a plum pudding? It's basically just... Christmas pudding?

Yeah, really heavy, dense, thick. And the next one? Okay, well, this is the card everyone wants to receive. It's a dead robin with its withering feet up in the air. It's the most heartbreaking card. And with a caption, May yours be a joyful Christmas. The implication being, this robin, sodding well, may yours be a joyful Christmas the implication being this Robin

sodding well didn't have a joyful Christmas as he's dead this is as bad as it gets next up what do you see here Russell it looks like it could be a mangled

Wurzel or a turnip or a parsnip walking along and on the top of it is Jacob Rees-Mogg with a monocle and a top hat and he's holding

a strawberry heart wheat thing that says Merry Christmas to you yeah it's literally the body of it is Jacob Rees-Mogg with a monocle and a top hat. And he's holding a strawberry heart wheat thing that says Merry Christmas to you. Yeah, it's literally the body of a parsnip at the face of Jacob Rees-Mogg. Which is Jacob Rees-Mogg's body, actually. I heard he's made of parsnip. I mean, this is a beautiful card. It says, Happy Christmas, a hearty welcome. And the image is snow, it's chilly, and it's a man being ripped apart by a bear.

It's just the part of Christmas everyone misses. A giant polar bear just eviscerating a man. I often like to just watch Leonardo DiCaprio in The Reverend start on a Sunday. A very Christmas film, that. Leonardo DiCaprio recovering from bear claws in the woods. I feel like we've all taken something because this is a mouse riding a lobster with a shopping list.

My favourite one. Last one. Well, this is a great... Let's read the caption. It says, Glad Christmas... What did that bade me? Glad Christmas bade me. Happy make your

New Year and so I thought I'd give you something fun. Which is beautiful and it's a Christmas scene. Two Victorian bobbies on the beat except one of them is about to be stabbed with a red hot rod by a clown that's literally scarier than it. Yes.

And then my absolute favourite one is two children being harassed by a giant wasp. Exactly. So those are Victorian Christmas cards. They seem to like horrific image, nice text. Yeah. And they love animal scenes. They love animals doing human things. They really love natural things because Christmas cards originated actually as Valentine's cards. So they're often very romantic and spring imagery.

actually as Valentine's cards. So they're often very romantic and spring imagery. But the really important thing about Christmas cards is that they massively blossomed in the 19th century because of the invention of the stamp, as you've mentioned, the postal system, the railway system. And it brings people together who were separated by the empire and by distance and so on. So the Christmas card starts off a very small thing.

It's invented in 1843 by Henry Cole. 1840s again. 1840s again. And then by the end of the century, there are millions and millions and millions of them. And they are beautiful aesthetic objects. Some of them are very surreal. Some of the finest artists in the land are making them. And they get reviewed critically.

People go to exhibitions of them. But you keep them and you store them. I just want to quickly say the two weirdest things that I've seen in a Victorian Christmas card. One was a slice of bacon. In the card? In the card. What do you mean? A real bit of bacon? A real bit of bacon stapled in. card. One was a slice of bacon. In the card? In the card. What do you mean, a real bit of bacon? A real bit of bacon stapled in.

And the other was a dead mouse. Who puts a dead mouse in a card? Except from one cat. Psychopaths. From the dog to the cat. So we have a debate in our house. Now, I'm not taking away from this period in history where obviously sending a card was one of the only communications,

but it's not anymore. Relevance is dead. Now, I, by no means, have conducted a sociological or demographic study that could be underwritten by an academic. However, I have played to over 110,000 people already on this tour. So that's a sizable slice of Britain. The number of men who like sending or receiving cards compared to the number of women i'm going to say

about two percent interestingly my gay friends say say that they do send to men send cards to each other we're talking about straight men hate cards they don't just not send them they detest them cards have become gendered the idea of giving and receiving and writing is the most important bit and shames the thought and all that. What is it about cards that are so repulsive and annoying to

almost all? One of the biggest arguments me and Lindsay had was I didn't get a Mother's Day card from the baby to her on the first Mother's Day because no one sat me down and told me I was going to have a weird, messed up Freudian day where I'm going to have to pretend my wife is my mum

and do fake crayons for the day, which I think is sick and weird. So if the Victorians started that, they're responsible for so many arguments. Yeah, and it's a man who invents it. So Henry Cole invents it because he's got so many friends and he's tired of writing letters. But they had a purpose then.

Yeah, they did. Now we have email and loads of other things. It's not 1840 anymore. Merry Christmas 281. The nuance window! So we need to move on. We've reached a part of the show that's my favourite part. This is where Russell and I allow Fern to talk uninterrupted for two minutes.

It's called the nuance window. And this is where our expert gets to talk about her specialist area. Fern is a historian of pop culture and specifically, as well as the history of sexuality, a music hall is her real thing. So, Fern, you get two minutes. I'm going to get my stopwatch up. Without much further ado, the nuance window. Off you go.

So I'm going to take you back from our history of crackers with H.J. Smith and the London Pavilion to the music halls. Now, the music halls are, again, a Victorian invention. In 1843, the Theatre's Regulation Act allows for us to have music hall because before that point, theatre is the only drama that we're allowed. We're not allowed anything else on the stage. And the music halls come out of the song and supper rooms that people are going to, that you pay money, you get a song and you get your supper. Those are male-only places,

things like the Coal Room in London and people like Thackeray and Dickens love to go to these because you get a bawdy song, you get your supper and you have fun. And when the Theatre's Act comes along, a whole load of publicans go, bloody hell, women come in my pub but they're not allowed into the song and supper rooms. If I make a room that everyone can go in that has bawdy songs

and fun and other acts, I could actually make some money here. And from this, the kind of the musicals explode. And it happens really fast. In 1851, we get the Canterbury Music Hall, which is the very first music hall in London. And it's the one that has this carpet of a thousand guineas and your seats are threepence. And you can come in, whoever you are, you get to see singers, comedians, anything you like, to become this, to just really have fun. What's central to the entire musical period, of course,

is the pantomime. And pantomime becomes what we know today, which is this big Christmas tradition. But in the Victorian period, it goes for four months. So if you don't like Christmas, apart from in December, as a Victorian comedian, you would have made your money in the Christmas period in pantomime, and it would have run for four months.

You would not have been able to get out of Dick Whittington. You would have been in that every single night. It's kind of this amazing thing and anyone who is a musical act wants to be in it and from that, from this kind of joy of these pantomimes which have like a cast of 2000, ballet

opera, anything in it, we get the spectacle of what we have as pantomime today. Amazing, thank you so much Nailed it, two minutes three seconds. That was nothing. I've learned so much today. Well, we're going to find out how much you've learned, because now...

You're not going to test me on what we've discussed, are you? Oh, yeah. So what do you know now? This is the quiz. We've got a quickfire. It's ten questions. What's the thing you're going to ask me we've already discussed? Basically everything that we've mentioned

in the show, we're now going to see if you were listening or not. And you're a clever, intelligent man, but you've had several coffees. I have natural brightness, but my memory, let's just say I've been to Ibiza 18 times. The short term isn't what it was. No worries at all. Don't worry. I'm a very generous

marker. My knowledge of techno, amazing. Alright. Okay. You ready? We've got a minute on theer. My knowledge of techno, amazing. All right, OK, you ready? We've got a minute on the clock, ten questions. So, here we go, first question. So Henry Cole invented what in 1843 to contact his friends at Christmas? Christmas cards. Yes. Boxing Day was made a bank holiday in 1871, apart from in which British country?

Yes, Scotland, absolutely. Why did Lewis Carroll acquire the nickname The Christmas Carroll? Because he so desperately wanted his books to be Christmassy. Absolutely. Which German royal first introduced Christmas trees into Britain? Caroline. Yes. In 1847, Tom Smith allegedly invented the modern cracker.

What did he call it? He called it... The porn film. Something expectations. Yep. Exploding expectations. Bangs of expectations. Bangs of expectations with his brother HG.

HG. Very well remembered. What was different about Victorian mince pies to ours? They contained meat and it was over their oval as well.

In the 1820s the American scholar Clement Moore allegedly wrote the famous poem featuring reindeer which was called It was the night

before Christmas. It absolutely was although it's sometimes called A Visit from St Nicholas. Christmas cards started out as part of which other earlier festival in February? A romance festival. I missed that one. Valentine's maybe? Valentine visit from St. Nicholas. Christmas cards started out as part of which other earlier festival in February?

A romance festival. I missed that one. Valentine's maybe? Valentine's it is, yep. In 1841 in Philadelphia, Santa Claus appeared in which place for the first time? Parkinson's store in Philadelphia. Parkinson's store, absolutely right. And well remembered on the name.

And in 1849, which character joined Father Christmas, or rather St. Nicholas, Santa Claus, by his side? He married her in a civil partnership. Mrs. Claus, I'm giving you 10 out of 10 there. Yeah! You delivered some quality extra facts there. I think you absolutely aced it. Well done, Russell. Oh, my God.

I would have listened so much harder if I'd remembered this happened at the end of this podcast. I genuinely wasn't concentrating fully, fully. I'm not feeling like a Grinch. I'm feeling like a nice Christmassy guy. I think you'd really well. Thank you. Amazing. Well, we've pretty much run out of time there.

So if you've enjoyed hearing us basically build Snowman and then punch it in the face with facts, then make sure to share this podcast with your friends, leave a review, like and subscribe. The show is called You're Dead to Me. A huge thank you again to our marvellous guests in History Corner, Dr Fern Riddell, and in Comedy Corner, the amazing Russell Candy Cane.

Did you enjoy it, Russell? Have you learned some stuff? I loved it. I'm fascinated by the Victorians and the conflicted things we have about them. Their prudery mixed with their liberality. They weren't prudes! Well, you need to talk to Fern because this is her area of expertise. The reputation of prudery mixed with the reality. It fascinates me.

They're like the pupil stage of us from the larvae of the Middle Ages to us as modern butterflies. That's a nice analogy. Very good analogy. Love it. Well, we're off to yank our bangs of expectation in the hope of cracking one off. Honestly, those Victorians were filthy. Someone milk Greg, for Christ's sake. Merry Christmas and farewell.

You're Dead to Me was a Muddy Knees media production for BBC Sounds. The script was written and researched by myself and the producer was Cornelius Mendez. Hi, I'm Hugh Dennis and I'd like to tell you about the Radio 4 Christmas Appeal. Over its long history, listeners have supported St Martin-in-the-Fields and helped thousands of people away from homelessness and into a safe and secure place to live.

How? Well, all over the UK, emergency grants of up to £350 help people to pay a deposit on a flat or pay rent arrears to avoid eviction. Frontline workers offer encouragement and challenge so people aren't alone while they get their lives back together. And in London, the connection at St Martin's helps people off the streets and to find a home. Thank you.